Suspension of Disbelief in Rifts

[Balabanto]

All right, now we're talking stomping on people's common sense. Cactus People and Gorilla Men? That I actually like! That's pure pulp 30's Flash Gordon Sci-Fi with absolutely no apologies whatsoever.

Plus, everything really is better with apes! No, really, I mean this. Comic Books with apes on the cover sell three times as many copies as those without.

[dark brandon]

Yes so much; I don't complain or harp on the setting 'problems'; honestly, the only thing about the setting I don't like is the names of the aliens. Goddamn "Gorilla-Men" and "Cactus People".

I actually don't mind this so much, because I think generally if that race's name was unpronounceable or too difficult to say, the average person (using english), would use overly-simplistic descriptions.

"if you keep going that way, you'll meet some Dacophilians"
"who"
"cactus people"
"oh, ok, thank you"

[keir451]

I can accept the strange names fo strange people because, in this case, dark brandon is correct. The average person, or layman if you prefer, is going to call something that looks like a walking cactus, a "walking cactus". Thus "cactus people".
We all have different thresholds for what we will and will not accept in our game sand wea all accept the GM's call when we sit down at his/her table. I prefer things to be more "realistic", even if it's fanatasy or fantastical it has to make sense or at least the GM has to be able to explain it in such a way as it makes sense.
You want dragons and other supernatural beings to be able to shrug off damage that would kill an average human, I can dig that. You want me to accept that they survive the kind of damage that can destroy equivalently armored vehicles just because they're "magical"? Nope. Sorry not gonna fly for me becasue, if that were so, then even the weapons that are SUPPOSED to be able to damage them won't work. That's my "suspension of disbelief" in a nutshell.

[Athos]

I want (and Yes, expect) more detail from the game creator, I want a system that is smooth to run and play while still including the fine details. I want those fine details because they make the game more enjoyable and believable for me.

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

For people who play RPGs, I think the majority want to develop a character, a role, you know the "R" in RPG. It isn't about learning how a particle beam cannon works for them, the cannon is just something they shoot from time to time, and is very subordinate to what their character is doing in the game. So I think the "fine details" as you put them, just get in the way of a good RPG experience, and I personally would rather the author concentrate on the setting and leave the fine details to me and my imagination if I don't know the topic, or me and my real world knowledge, if I do.

[Nightmask]

I want (and Yes, expect) more detail from the game creator, I want a system that is smooth to run and play while still including the fine details. I want those fine details because they make the game more enjoyable and believable for me.

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

For people who play RPGs, I think the majority want to develop a character, a role, you know the "R" in RPG. It isn't about learning how a particle beam cannon works for them, the cannon is just something they shoot from time to time, and is very subordinate to what their character is doing in the game. So I think the "fine details" as you put them, just get in the way of a good RPG experience, and I personally would rather the author concentrate on the setting and leave the fine details to me and my imagination if I don't know the topic, or me and my real world knowledge, if I do.

Definitely this. I want to get in and have fun and watch my character and grow not be so bogged down in details I'm forced into the Pen-and-Paper version of a hack-and-slash computer game where there's little to no developing your character beyond adding on gear. I remember an AD&D GM who expected you to memorize the game books and hand write out everything about your character class if you wanted to have access to it which meant as a mage you had to memorize every spell in every aspect or hand-copy every spell from the book you were using.

[Dog_O_War]

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

This; this is a thought-train I whole-heartedly endorse. It's why I feel the need to cry 'FIREBALL!' from time to time.

[Blindscout]

Cry FIREBALL and let slip the Dog_O_War!

Just my way of saying I'm with you on this one.

[keir451]

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

This; this is a thought-train I whole-heartedly endorse. It's why I feel the need to cry 'FIREBALL!' from time to time.

You may cry "FIREBALL" as you wish, that is your choice. It is my personal experience that the game can be run with plenty of the fine details, an adherence to physics and still have plenty for me to do in developing my character. I also wish to point out that your fireball spell maxes out at 1d6x10 SDC or MDC, whereas a volley of 10 plasma missiles reduces you to atomic ash. There are a few fiction writers who are already aware of what leading edge scientists are debating (Alastair Reynolds for one works for the European Space agency) and yet they manage to tell a compelling story nonetheless. I understand differences of opinion but I have been using MY real life knowledge to add depth to Rifts for 20+ yrs and have had very, very few problems doing so. The one time I had a major problem was when I shifted to a new GM who's depth of knowledge and application of it were different than mine, we have been gaming together now for 8 yrs with LESS difference of opinion than I see in ONE post on these boards and we are both VERY stubborn in our opinions.

[Killer Cyborg]

What breaks my suspension of disbelief is that Dog obviously hates the Palladium system, but yet is still on these boards like he's pretending to be a fan or something.

Say something negative about the setting.

It's got a lot of stupid cliches, like Indians out west, Knights in England, and cyber-ninjas in Japan.

Elves in fantasy are a cliche. But a fantasy game without elves (for me) feels like something is missing.

Elves in sword and sorcery type fantasy are more of a staple.
An element can be common without being cliche.

That is; while breaking from cliches can be a good thing, cliches didn't become what they are unless they were popular. And typically if things are popular, it's because people like them.

And if they become cliche, it's because the idea has been overused to the point of no longer being very popular.

As I do. I like Knights in England, ninja and samurai in Japan, and an illiterate but overtly military nation who fears people who are different from them in America

I like things that make sense, and those things (other than the CS) don't make sense.
Not as presented, anyway.

It can't keep its owns story straight, creating and erasing entire populations of people from one book to the next.

While the story is its own monster, you have to break from it at some point; one game you play might've started in 99PA, and your players do successfully defend Tolkeen from destruction. In that campaign, clearly an alternate storyline needs to be written.

People should be able to deviate from the story whenever they like.
And they are able to.

But the people should also be able to stick to the story if they like, and they're not able to, because it's changed out from under them.

It's got a lot of racial stereotypes in the various world books.

And incredibly stupid alien names.
I got nothing here; I dislike this part of the setting too.

I bet we could argue about which ones are worst!
(But that might be better as its own thread)

There's an imbalance between the description of how common mega-damage is, and how often it's described as being used.

"...silver is the merchant's coin. Gold is the currency of the adventurer." A quote (not word for word) from a D&D book.

Kind of a crap quote, if you ask me, which you didn't.

Mega-Damage is the adventurer's currency on Rifts

That depends on the adventurers and the adventure.

that you're PC is why it seems so common. Otherwise the game would be extremely boring if we were playing some secluded townie in a protected part of the CS, where there is no reason to have a bunch of MD weapons lying around, and where there hasn't been a real disturbance in 20 years.
I mean, people have always attempted to run a low-powered game in Rifts (many of them 'Burbs games), and those do not contain the otherwise adventurer-common MD combat. But those are clearly exceptions to what is typical, which shows just how exceptional adventurers (and thus MD combat) really is.

Instead of nitpicking, I'll agree with the gist of what you're saying here.
But...

1. The thing is, the net effect of how things are run is that people can't even imagine anybody living as a secluded townie in a protected part of the CS, or imagine any place where there hasn't been a real disturbance in 20 years.
Just look at all the threads that keep popping up where people insist that humans would realistically be extinct since there are MDC monsters running amok everywhere.
This sort of thing needs to be addressed more; if people are expected to understand that most of the populationdoesn't have Mega-damage capabilities, then that needs to be highlighted and explained more in flavor text and stats.

2. NPC stats even in quiet towns are generally on par with adventurers, which isn't how things should be. Not every barkeep should be a Wilderness Scout, not every mechanic should be an Operator, and not every town militia should be fully stocked with MDC armor and weapons.

3. A LOT of flavor could be added to the game by describing more non-Mega-Damage gear. A heck of a lot. Not everything in the books needs to be used by most adventurers in order to be useful, and even when it IS used frequently, that doesn't mean it needs to be MDC/MD.
One of the best pieces of gear in Rifts is the Sonic Flea Collar, just like one of the best pieces of gear in Cyberpunk 2020 was Shower In A Can.

Even with the understanding that the books are going to be oriented towards PCs more than NPCs, there's an incredible amount of imbalance in presentation.
It's not the slant that's the problem as much as the degree of it.

HUGE chunks of important setting information are un-addressed, even after more than two decades.

That is a failing of the creator, not the setting.

If a setting has giant question-marks in the main stage, that's a failing in the setting.

They actually have "mega-damage" as an in-game word.

I thought it was. It completely makes sense that it would be too; the basic difference is effectively a material; "you have three arrows; one wood, one steel, and one MD."

Not "one wood, one steel, and one plasteel?"
Not "one wood, one steel, and one neotitanium?"
Not "one wood, one steel, and one mono-steel?"

It doesn't make any more sense than if they used "SDC" as an in-game term.
Or, for that matter, "hit points."

There you will see why I like the game.

Not so much.
The setting has as many problems as the rules do.

Yes so much;

No... I seriously can't see why you like the game.
You can insist that I DO, but you'll be wrong.

[Killer Cyborg]

All right, now we're talking stomping on people's common sense. Cactus People and Gorilla Men? That I actually like! That's pure pulp 30's Flash Gordon Sci-Fi with absolutely no apologies whatsoever.

Moreover, it's plausible because that's what humans would name them. We're not that imaginative; we kind of call things like we see them.
"That's HUGE freakin' shark, man! It's like the size of a whale!"
"Hm. Let's call it a 'whale shark.'"

Plus, everything really is better with apes! No, really, I mean this. Comic Books with apes on the cover sell three times as many copies as those without.

Points for knowing that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

This; this is a thought-train I whole-heartedly endorse. It's why I feel the need to cry 'FIREBALL!' from time to time.

I thought it was Tourette's Syndrome.

But I agree with both of you to a degree; just look at the fancy computers in the original Rifts book that has a 16 Meg hard drive.
THAT notion showed its age REAL quick.

But then, detail can be pretty important too.
You just have to dance a fine line between "too specific" and "too generic."

[Killer Cyborg]

The one time I had a major problem was when I shifted to a new GM who's depth of knowledge and application of it were different than mine, we have been gaming together now for 8 yrs with LESS difference of opinion than I see in ONE post on these boards and we are both VERY stubborn in our opinions.

And that's the problem.
The game is fine as long as you're working with a group of like-minded people who can agree on the rules.
But as soon as you deal with an outsider, somebody has to relearn the game, because no two groups play the same game of Rifts.

[keir451]

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

This; this is a thought-train I whole-heartedly endorse. It's why I feel the need to cry 'FIREBALL!' from time to time.

I thought it was Tourette's Syndrome.

But I agree with both of you to a degree; just look at the fancy computers in the original Rifts book that has a 16 Meg hard drive.
THAT notion showed its age REAL quick.

But then, detail can be pretty important too.
You just have to dance a fine line between "too specific" and "too generic."

Good point KC. Alot of times we don't go into excessive details but if i'm running say an Operator who's trying to design a new Main Battle Tank the details become kinda important. You'll want to conisder the variables of weapon type, motive system, armor levels, power source, etc.
I will admit that I'm not quite as specific regarding things as my GM is, nonetheless certain things (such as the way bodies react to damage) are important in my games. Even a dragon can become concussed if he gets hit in the head too many times. To say otherwise means one is saying that the dragon has no brain, no blood and no internal organs. But because he does these organs still react the same way to damage as any other creature's, they're just tougher so it takes more.

[Nightmask]

Man, I have to disagree with you here. Whenever someone tries to say, make a movie or book that explains software, I cringe. I have written software for 20+ years now, from factory automation to voice switches for cisco and everything in between and it is NEVER represented correctly in movies, books, games, etc. And, computers and software are a hell of a lot easier than combat. To me, it HAS to be abstracted, otherwise you get people that are experts coming in and sniping all your incorrect assumptions and just flat ignorance. Why should a game creator, who in my book is like a fiction/fanstasy writer, have to learn what leading edge scientists are still debating on? It just isn't realistic to expect a game to be realistic.

This; this is a thought-train I whole-heartedly endorse. It's why I feel the need to cry 'FIREBALL!' from time to time.

I thought it was Tourette's Syndrome.

But I agree with both of you to a degree; just look at the fancy computers in the original Rifts book that has a 16 Meg hard drive.
THAT notion showed its age REAL quick.

But then, detail can be pretty important too.
You just have to dance a fine line between "too specific" and "too generic."

Good point KC. Alot of times we don't go into excessive details but if i'm running say an Operator who's trying to design a new Main Battle Tank the details become kinda important. You'll want to conisder the variables of weapon type, motive system, armor levels, power source, etc.
I will admit that I'm not quite as specific regarding things as my GM is, nonetheless certain things (such as the way bodies react to damage) are important in my games. Even a dragon can become concussed if he gets hit in the head too many times. To say otherwise means one is saying that the dragon has no brain, no blood and no internal organs. But because he does these organs still react the same way to damage as any other creature's, they're just tougher so it takes more.

Except they aren't like other creatures, other than other MD creatures. SDC creatures are on an entirely inferior level without the ability to regenerate, lift impossible amounts of weight, resist or be totally immune to a range of physical attacks, and incapable of surviving a stunt like smothering an SDC grenade with their bodies. Meanwhile the MDC creature is explicitly noted as being able to smother an MDC explosive and surviving (as long as the damage doesn't exceed MDC), so clearly MDC creatures are far superior to mortal SDC beings when it comes to their design and just another reason why they're so terrifying to mortals. 'I can't believe it! That's not possible!' are the common exclamations of mortals towards such beings in witnessing what they can do, from smothering the grenade or fusion block to taking little to no harm from freefall off of a cliff.

[keir451]

@Nightmask, Sorry to say I apply the same standard to MDC beings as I do to SDC beings. To whit; If you attempt to smother an MDC explosive w/your body you're just as dead as that localizes the force of the explosison to one point where it rips thru your MDC body killing you insantly, or wounding you so severely that you cannot act.
If MDC beings are so immune to basic kinetic dmage then why does the GB Boom Gun affect them at all? Why do we have "knockdown" when struck by a railgun's rounds? Why is it that if an MDC being is struck by a Robot or PA fist hey still take MD?
If you were Sea Titan (or any othe MDC being) and I punched you in the face a dozen times w/ my Robots fist what happens? You take damage listed as "Xd6 MDC", but more likely what has happpened is that I've broken your MDC nose, jaw and cheek bones, slammed your MDC brain against your even harder MDC skull, torn and ripped your MDC veins and given you an MDC concussion. Will you heal from this in time? Yes, unless I continue to pound away w/ my MDC fists at your MDC face until I pulp your MDC head.
Admittedly I was being excessively graphic, but this is essentially what happens. While many consider the Earth and rocks & all to be SDC I see them as MDC(or else the planet would be destroyed by the SDF-1's main particle cannon), sure they're SDC on the small scale just like MDC materials are, but enough of them together are MDC and can have the same imapct upon an MDC being as they would an SDC being. Even the GB's flechettes can only do SDC if thrown by a normal human, but as the Boom Gun accelerates them to 5 times the speed of sound they then do MDC in sufficient quantity to seriously wound, if not outright kill, many MDC beings.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask, Sorry to say I apply the same standard to MDC beings as I do to SDC beings. To whit; If you attempt to smother an MDC explosive w/your body you're just as dead as that localizes the force of the explosison to one point where it rips thru your MDC body killing you insantly, or wounding you so severely that you cannot act.
If MDC beings are so immune to basic kinetic dmage then why does the GB Boom Gun affect them at all? Why do we have "knockdown" when struck by a railgun's rounds? Why is it that if an MDC being is struck by a Robot or PA fist hey still take MD?
If you were Sea Titan (or any othe MDC being) and I punched you in the face a dozen times w/ my Robots fist what happens? You take damage listed as "Xd6 MDC", but more likely what has happpened is that I've broken your MDC nose, jaw and cheek bones, slammed your MDC brain against your even harder MDC skull, torn and ripped your MDC veins and given you an MDC concussion. Will you heal from this in time? Yes, unless I continue to pound away w/ my MDC fists at your MDC face until I pulp your MDC head.
Admittedly I was being excessively graphic, but this is essentially what happens. While many consider the Earth and rocks & all to be SDC I see them as MDC(or else the planet would be destroyed by the SDF-1's main particle cannon), sure they're SDC on the small scale just like MDC materials are, but enough of them together are MDC and can have the same imapct upon an MDC being as they would an SDC being. Even the GB's flechettes can only do SDC if thrown by a normal human, but as the Boom Gun accelerates them to 5 times the speed of sound they then do MDC in sufficient quantity to seriously wound, if not outright kill, many MDC beings.

So you're basically running a house rule then, since the canon rules clearly state that MDC creatures are such a cut above that they can indeed smother an MD grenade without certain death being the outcome. Which is understandable since they're an entirely different category of creature from mere SDC beings with hundreds to thousands of times the ability to resist and take damage. MDC creatures simply don't fit the same standards as SDC creatures, that's part and parcel with being an MDC being. So that MD punch isn't going to rattle a brain and cause a concussion like an SDC punch to an SDC being will.

Really there's just too much 'they ought to be like SDC beings' when they aren't, they aren't subject to the same threats and fears that SDC beings have. Many books point out how much contempt many MDC creatures have for SDC beings and their weapons, engaging in battles where they take 60%, 70%, or even more of their MDC and trot off to heal and come back for more in a few hours. Such a being is not going to be going 'Oh no I'm falling to my death!' from freefall, he's going to think 'Damn this is inconvenient,' and get right up after he hits and go about his business. Because he's not a natural being and as has been noted normal SDC people have survived and in some case with little injury freefall so it's absurd to suggest a creature a thousand times more durable would be risking the same near certain death as a human when a frail human can occasionally survive and without the ability to survive even an SDC grenade held to his chest let alone survive a pounding from a rail gun and treat it as a flesh wound.

[keir451]

@Nightmask; I can't argue that I'm essentially house ruling it. I'm doing so because my "suspension of disbelief" says that the aforementioned description is EXACTLY what happens to even an MDC being. If you were running a dragon in my game & you were(IMO) so foolish as to take 60%-70% of your main body MDC then I'll make you roll consciousness due to blood loss, and save vs shock due to trauma as ALL bodies react the same. Now as I said the fact that yu regen means you'll probably survive, but you're gonna be one hurtin' puppy for a while and you WILL think twice about tangling with anyone in a PA suit or Robot 'casue next time you just might DIE!!! As tough as MDc beings are humanities tech is the great equalizer as humanity can, has and quite possibly will deploy weapons of mass destruction (yes we will employ nukes if there is no other recourse) just to make sure you are dead. A dragon may turn up his nose at a single GB but if he's facing 2 or 3 then he's in trouble. In the end it's my "suspension of disbelief" vs yours, we might never agree on it, because to me wether it's dragon vs dragon, MDC being vs MDC being, PA unit or Robot vs PA unit or Robot or even PA unit/Robot vs MDC being. You will still take MD and the effects are just as equivalent. An MDC punch can stil break MDC bones wether it's delivered by another MDC being or by a Robot or PA unit 'cause MDC is MDC. A fall from "X height" can still kill becasue it's the equivalent of MDC to a SDC body, so it'll inflict MD on an MD being.

[glitterboy2098]

guys, the issue isn't that MDC creatures are immune to kinetics, since they're not. the fact is though, that something liek a boomgun or a C-40 is firing large enough rounds at high enough velocity that they inflict standard damage in the hundreds and thousands. thus making them MDC.

falling damage on the otherhand, rarely produces more than a few hundred S.D., and even then only after falling a long time. a human reaches terminal velocity after about 1880 feet of fall. which means that they'd take 188D6 standard damage (between 2 M.D. (188 sd) and 10 M.D (1128sd)).

however, as of RUE, MDC objects for some reason take 1D6 M.D. for the same fall. thus while a regular human is only taking between 2 and 10 m.d., a seatitan, which is otherwise identical in physical form and mass, is taking 188D6 M.D., or between 188 and 1128 M.D. ... 100x more damage just because they're 100x tougher.

this make zero sense. it would make more sense if falling damage was the same for all, and MDC objects, by dint of their (obviously) greater toughness, are more likely to survive falling from great heights.

[Nightmask]

guys, the issue isn't that MDC creatures are immune to kinetics, since they're not. the fact is though, that something liek a boomgun or a C-40 is firing large enough rounds at high enough velocity that they inflict standard damage in the hundreds and thousands. thus making them MDC.

falling damage on the otherhand, rarely produces more than a few hundred S.D., and even then only after falling a long time. a human reaches terminal velocity after about 1880 feet of fall. which means that they'd take 188D6 standard damage (between 2 M.D. (188 sd) and 10 M.D (1128sd)).

however, as of RUE, MDC objects for some reason take 1D6 M.D. for the same fall. thus while a regular human is only taking between 2 and 10 m.d., a seatitan, which is otherwise identical in physical form and mass, is taking 188D6 M.D., or between 188 and 1128 M.D. ... 100x more damage just because they're 100x tougher.

this make zero sense. it would make more sense if falling damage was the same for all, and MDC objects, by dint of their (obviously) greater toughness, are more likely to survive falling from great heights.

Definitely zero sense to it, since you can take two people both the same size one being SDC and one being MDC and inexplicably the guy's taking damage at the same fatal levels or worse than the SDC guy even though they weigh roughly the same and hit the ground at the same speed. So how could the MDC guy ever take any can't of real damage when he's hundreds of times more durable and the damage from the fall should be finite?

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask; I can't argue that I'm essentially house ruling it. I'm doing so because my "suspension of disbelief" says that the aforementioned description is EXACTLY what happens to even an MDC being. If you were running a dragon in my game & you were(IMO) so foolish as to take 60%-70% of your main body MDC then I'll make you roll consciousness due to blood loss, and save vs shock due to trauma as ALL bodies react the same. Now as I said the fact that yu regen means you'll probably survive, but you're gonna be one hurtin' puppy for a while and you WILL think twice about tangling with anyone in a PA suit or Robot 'casue next time you just might DIE!!! As tough as MDc beings are humanities tech is the great equalizer as humanity can, has and quite possibly will deploy weapons of mass destruction (yes we will employ nukes if there is no other recourse) just to make sure you are dead. A dragon may turn up his nose at a single GB but if he's facing 2 or 3 then he's in trouble. In the end it's my "suspension of disbelief" vs yours, we might never agree on it, because to me wether it's dragon vs dragon, MDC being vs MDC being, PA unit or Robot vs PA unit or Robot or even PA unit/Robot vs MDC being. You will still take MD and the effects are just as equivalent. An MDC punch can stil break MDC bones wether it's delivered by another MDC being or by a Robot or PA unit 'cause MDC is MDC. A fall from "X height" can still kill becasue it's the equivalent of MDC to a SDC body, so it'll inflict MD on an MD being.

Given things like dragons regenerate faster than you can take damage from blood loss and the like it's a violation of a suspension of disbelief to claim that something like a dragon could pass out or die from blood loss because all bodies DON'T react the same way. Nigh-immortal creatures with massive regenerative abilities and capable of shrugging off damage that'd destroy a city block don't go dying from blood loss or getting concussions or dying from hitting the ground from a trivial 120MPH. There's a lot more straining of believability to claim something like a dragon or other MDC creature can die from these things than to state that they can't. What they're made of and can do makes them simply not subject to the frailties of other creatures.

I mean really in a game with vampire intelligences, gods, Cosmic Forges, and magical power beyond comprehension I can't fathom how anyone would actually think that an MDC creature especially one as massively outfitted with resistances and special powers would ever subject to the kinds of limitations an SDC creature does. It'd be as unrealistic as suggesting the Hulk would be bothered by such things when it's long established he's not, or that Superman is for that matter. It's just inherent to the nature of the creatures, if you're accepting the Rifts setting at all you're accepting things so fantastic that it strains credulity that one would find a creature that is MDC is so astoundingly less durable than they've been written when that's far less unrealistic to accept than the rest.

[Killer Cyborg]

CB1, p. 18:
(after discussing point-blank shots and explosions and SDC beings)

Mega-Damage creatures are different than creatures of human flesh and blood. MDC flesh is a special armor-like skin that is resistant even to most point-blank attacks. They can use their bodies to smother an MDC grenade or block a particle beam. While the blast will hurt, it will not kill until all Mega-Damage points have been depleted. The only possible exception may be a direct and powerful point-blank shot to the head; GM's discretion.

CB1r, p. 23
(again after discussing point-blank shots and explosions and SDC beings)

Note: The same basic concept applies to MD explosives and MDC creatures and structures.

That help any?

[keir451]

Thxs KC. it does help, esp. the part about GM's discretion. I realize where evreryone is coming from, but I just don't agree. Yes dragons and other supernatural beings are incredibly tough BUT they are not always as tough as many people state. If I were to shoot a dragon at point blank range w/a Boomgun he's gonna be hurting ALOT, sure he can regenerate that damage, but it will take time. It is not a matter of seconds, and if for some reason the blast takes off his head he's still dead, no regenerating from that one. The same goes if you somehow blow out his heart, he's dead because without his heart he cannot pump blood & oxygen thru his body so he dies of lack of oxygen to the brain(Yes dragons breathe, dragons DO have organs), no regeneration there either. I ingnore KS's statements regarding vampires (I think the vampires are too strong, he nerfs everything else but his vampires are munchkin as all hell), nukes (in my game) WILL kill vampires, railgun blasts to the head will do it too (esp. if you burn the body afterwards).
I'll freely admit that I play a different style of game regarding certain things, again that is because of the way I veiw things. It does not maje sense to me that a dragon that get punched repeatedly in the head by a 'bot or even another MDC being would NOT be concussed and eventually have his skull caved in due to repeated blows. I cannot accept that a dragon (or other supernatural beings short of Gods) can survive falls that destroy equivalently armored vehicles. Nope. Sorry, don't buy it, never will. However, if I am at YOUR table, I WILL respect your gaming style even if I disagree with it, all I'll ask is the same courtesy in return.

[Killer Cyborg]

I cannot accept that a dragon (or other supernatural beings short of Gods) can survive falls that destroy equivalently armored vehicles.

This statement could use some exploration.

[Nightmask]

I cannot accept that a dragon (or other supernatural beings short of Gods) can survive falls that destroy equivalently armored vehicles.

This statement could use some exploration.

That it could, given dragons and the like have nothing in common with armored vehicles which are rigid relatively hollow structures lacking the flexibility to deal with hard impacts by absorbing and redistributing the energy dissipating the damage it causes.

[Saitou Hajime]

You are stressing the rules over game play, generally you only need to roll a skill if your underpressure or trying to do some with in a fixed time at a fixed quality. anyone can patch a knee on pants but someone with Sewing and make it look good. If you have time you can do the job. I remember in 3 edition D&D they had the Take Ten Rule, a rule I been using for years in my RPG without even knowing. Most skills allow for a take ten [Take Ten minutes and you could do any basic skill at average level]. You need to use the radio? that fine you can sit a play it checking all the output sources and that and broadcast a message.+

Game play is the rules. That is what a role-playing game is. Remember, one of the basics of the game is that there is no script; the game might be on rails but the players still get to decide what actions their characters perform.

And that performance is governed by the rules. The skill-thing extends much beyond my radio-basic example; that was just for simplicities' sake. As for my other points; it's those rules that you have access to in-game that break the surreality. I typically don't have any issues or qualms with story-line, back-drop, etc., "the fluff" if you will; but when I've been given a rule that states I go first for achieving a higher score than everyone else, but then I get shot the same time as the slowest guy (whom I was gonna shoot) because he decided that "he wanted to shoot me too", and then the rules allow for it for no logical reason, that is where the game breaks down.

You know in hundreds of games that never happened to me, no one ever abused that loophole sorry not a game breaker. Rules are the framework of the game. Perhaps I am a more fluid GM than yourself it could be a total style thing.

[keir451]

I cannot accept that a dragon (or other supernatural beings short of Gods) can survive falls that destroy equivalently armored vehicles.

This statement could use some exploration.

Exploration/Expalnation: Dragon falls from a great height, takes damage or dies depending upon circumstances, suchas speed at time of impact, height from which it fell, damage taken from fall or previously. IN MY OPINION because the dragon IS flesh & blood (even if it is MDC flesh and blood) it takes damage as a MDC flesh & blood creature.

Nightmask says

That it could, given dragons and the like have nothing in common with armored vehicles which are rigid relatively hollow structures lacking the flexibility to deal with hard impacts by absorbing and redistributing the energy dissipating the damage it causes.

Thank you Nightmask for proving that physics does indeed have a place in Rifts. If this statement applies to Dragons then it applies to all supernatural beings.

[Balabanto]

The problem with this statement is that a Dragon is no different from a heap of sentient tofu. My problem is actually less with how people interpret megadamage and more how people interpret computers. Let's follow up with this statement about software for a minute.

Me=Not an IT programmer. Have a job in retail sales when I'm not designing games and writing novels.

Several of my players=IT Programmers.

In my Champions game, the end result of this was that I had to CHANGE HOW COMPUTERS WORKED, not because it was a necessary change in terms of running a comic book world, but because the GM needed to know more about how computers worked than his players did. "Computers don't work that way" was a common complaint.

My response was "Shut up and let me run the game. Don't nitpick."

"But our reasonable expectation is..." I don't care what your reasonable expectation is. I don't have your knowledge base. Therefore, computers now work like this so that we don't have these arguments.

This irritated a couple players. Guess what? They still play.

The same thing applies to Rifts, only on a grand scale. Things only work the way the GM says they work. If you don't like it, leave. Find another Rifts game. Why? Because some people like theme more than they like rules, and other people like rules more than they like theme. This is why we house rule everything in this game. Heck, it's why I have FORTY pages of house rules in my Champions game. Heck, my RIFTS game only has four.

There's far too much nerd rage in this thread for it's own good.

[Dog_O_War]

You know in hundreds of games that never happened to me, no one ever abused that loophole sorry not a game breaker. Rules are the framework of the game. Perhaps I am a more fluid GM than yourself it could be a total style thing.

Heh, it was me who'd abuse the hell out of it all the time. My old GM used to hate that I'd do it; he'd tell me to stop doing it, and I'd tell him, "I'm just playing by the rules you said you used, and that were 'great'."

But anyways, because I can identify the abuse, I certainly won't put up with it. I would actually recommend either trying it out (abusing the hell outta this rule, especially with crazy hack-weapons), or having a player of yours do this all the time. You'll soon be sick of the fact that you really can't do anything.

[Nightmask]

I cannot accept that a dragon (or other supernatural beings short of Gods) can survive falls that destroy equivalently armored vehicles.

This statement could use some exploration.

Exploration/Expalnation: Dragon falls from a great height, takes damage or dies depending upon circumstances, suchas speed at time of impact, height from which it fell, damage taken from fall or previously. IN MY OPINION because the dragon IS flesh & blood (even if it is MDC flesh and blood) it takes damage as a MDC flesh & blood creature.

Nightmask says

That it could, given dragons and the like have nothing in common with armored vehicles which are rigid relatively hollow structures lacking the flexibility to deal with hard impacts by absorbing and redistributing the energy dissipating the damage it causes.

Thank you Nightmask for proving that physics does indeed have a place in Rifts. If this statement applies to Dragons then it applies to all supernatural beings.

Yes, too bad when it comes to supernatural beings you keep getting them confused with mere mortal SDC creatures and having the same rules apply to both when they don't. You're also holding the unrealistic position that somehow the same amount of energy involved does a hundred or a thousand times MORE damage to the MDC creature than it does to the SDC creature so you're basically suggesting that MDC creatures not only aren't the same as SDC creatures but that they take more damage in the same situation rather than less. 'Because I want MDC creatures to take more damage because I don't want to accept that they can easily survive situations an inferior SDC creature can't' just doesn't cut it. The 100 SDC/50 HP human and the 100 MDC superhuman falling the same distance shouldn't have the MDC creature taking an order of magnitude more damage and dying as easily or moreso than the SDC guy.

[johnkretzer]

And that's the problem.
The game is fine as long as you're working with a group of like-minded people who can agree on the rules.
But as soon as you deal with an outsider, somebody has to relearn the game, because no two groups play the same game of Rifts.

Actualy you could replace the word Rifts with any RPG out there. That is not actualy a problem in my view point. Any time I sit at a table with a new group I expect differences.

The only exception is organized play...but even that I'll argue you'll find slight varience from GM to GM.

[Killer Cyborg]

And that's the problem.
The game is fine as long as you're working with a group of like-minded people who can agree on the rules.
But as soon as you deal with an outsider, somebody has to relearn the game, because no two groups play the same game of Rifts.

Actualy you could replace the word Rifts with any RPG out there. That is not actualy a problem in my view point. Any time I sit at a table with a new group I expect differences.

There are always some differences, but the degree of difference is a lot steeper in Rifts.
A lot of the differences in other games tend to be house rules, and that can be covered fairly quickly before a game.
In Rifts, people don't even know what the rules ARE a lot of the time.
So if you walk into a new group, you end up doing a lot of...
"Wait... a C-12 does HOW much?"
"Wait... CS Grunts are TOUGH?!?"
"Wait... I'll have to pay HOW MUCH to repair my armor?"
"What do you mean my GB can't dodge just because I fired my gun last attack?"
"You simo-attack my Juicer with a gun!?"
"But I have a laser torch! Why can't I just fix my armor myself?"
"Why's everybody scared; it's just vampires."
"We have to save vs. Horror Factor for every one of those creatures?"
"But my character was designed specifically so that he could teleport out of his vehicle if he needed to!"

And so on, and on, and on.

I've never run into any other game I know of where people playing the game 20+ years STILL weren't all in agreement about how much damage one of the basic weapons in the first book would inflict on a successful attack.

Look back through some of the old threads here, especially any of the "Glitterboy VS..." threads. You might be surprised at the very large variety in rule interpretations, even or especially among people who believe they are playing things by-the-book.

[keir451]

@Nightmask; I'm not confusing anything with anything else. I'm simply applying physics to EVERYTHING in the game equally.
I've stated that supernatural beings can regenerate the damage recieved, but I'm also saying that as long as they are living flesh ad blood beings they are subject the the same rules as as ALL living flesh and blood beings; They are susceptible to shock, they are susceptible to blood loss, they are susceptible to concussions. Yes the damage has to be dealt by a similar MDC being, or equivalent weapon system but they are still susceptible. To me this means they are susceptible to the conditions of falls from great heights as well.
While machines are rigid, unyielding structures and living, flesh & blood beings (MDC or non) are more flexible each has a damage threshold. If I decide (in my game) that falling from a certain height causes you "X MDC" due to the fact that you're moving at "X speed" and you have "X mass" then you take that damage. If I feel that throwing yourself on a fusion block on the ground means that you take full point blank damage, you take full point blank damage. If asked why, I will say "Becasue the blast was amplified due to having limited expansion room". Now, depending upon the amount of damage taken and the location on your body, this could be either be a serious wound or a light wound. Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?). In the end I simply require different things than you for me to suspend my disbelief, BUT as I also said previously, at YOUR gaming table I will follow your rules even if I disagree with them, I will save my questions on that for AFTER the game.

[jaymz]

@Kier

Ok then lets do a simple comparison. Human vs Sea Titan. Same size and weight. One is SDC/HP and the other is MDC.

Do the both die? My answer is no because they would literally take the same damage (using the above number calculated) of 188d6SD from the fall at terminal velocity. That is 2-10 MD. The Human MIGHT survive (there is real life anecdotal evidence to indicate it IS possible) but they will likely die. The Sea Titan should survive it though I would certainly say they are stunned and a bit disoriented and maybe give them a concussion.

I think where we're having trouble following what you are saying is, that as far as I can tell, in the above scenario you would have the Sea Titan suddenly take 100x more damage (since MDC is x100 SDC) for no other reason than the fact they are MDC which to the rest of us, by and large, makes ZERO sense since the beings in question are the same size and weight.

[jaymz]

Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?).

technically Superman was not actually killed.......he just took a REALLY long to heal and regenerate as per the Return of Superman storyline....

[glitterboy2098]

@Kier

Ok then lets do a simple comparison. Human vs Sea Titan. Same size and weight. One is SDC/HP and the other is MDC.

Do the both die? My answer is no because they would literally take the same damage (using the above number calculated) of 188d6SD from the fall at terminal velocity. That is 2-10 MD. The Human MIGHT survive (there is real life anecdotal evidence to indicate it IS possible) but they will likely die. The Sea Titan should survive it though I would certainly say they are stunned and a bit disoriented and maybe give them a concussion.

I think where we're having trouble following what you are saying is, that as far as I can tell, in the above scenario you would have the Sea Titan suddenly take 100x more damage (since MDC is x100 SDC) for no other reason than the fact they are MDC which to the rest of us, by and large, makes ZERO sense since the beings in question are the same size and weight.

check pg 346 in RUE.

[jaymz]

@Kier

Ok then lets do a simple comparison. Human vs Sea Titan. Same size and weight. One is SDC/HP and the other is MDC.

Do the both die? My answer is no because they would literally take the same damage (using the above number calculated) of 188d6SD from the fall at terminal velocity. That is 2-10 MD. The Human MIGHT survive (there is real life anecdotal evidence to indicate it IS possible) but they will likely die. The Sea Titan should survive it though I would certainly say they are stunned and a bit disoriented and maybe give them a concussion.

I think where we're having trouble following what you are saying is, that as far as I can tell, in the above scenario you would have the Sea Titan suddenly take 100x more damage (since MDC is x100 SDC) for no other reason than the fact they are MDC which to the rest of us, by and large, makes ZERO sense since the beings in question are the same size and weight.

check pg 346 in RUE.

If you are referring to the knockdown damage for MDC beings, I know them. My point is to Kier about how MDC are the same as SDC in the scenario I painted as according to him they would likely die like the SDC being would.

According to page 346 then the normal human would take 94d6 of damage while an MDC being would take 5d6 md (since the md being is based on speed not distance and the sdc being uses distance) makes it actually more possible for the sdc being to actually survive the 1880 ft fall (since again it is anecdotally possible in real life) and definitely makes it survivable by the sea titan. Mind you for what ever reason the sea titan takes 5d6x100 equivalent in SD (up to 3000) as opposed to 94d6 SD (564 SD max) the human takes form the same fall even though they are the same size and weight. On the surface that makes no sense but I suppose it could be chalked up to the Sea Titan being a higher density or sumsuch. Mind you even with it as is the Sea Titan is QUITE likely to survive the fall.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask; I'm not confusing anything with anything else. I'm simply applying physics to EVERYTHING in the game equally.
I've stated that supernatural beings can regenerate the damage recieved, but I'm also saying that as long as they are living flesh ad blood beings they are subject the the same rules as as ALL living flesh and blood beings; They are susceptible to shock, they are susceptible to blood loss, they are susceptible to concussions. Yes the damage has to be dealt by a similar MDC being, or equivalent weapon system but they are still susceptible. To me this means they are susceptible to the conditions of falls from great heights as well.
While machines are rigid, unyielding structures and living, flesh & blood beings (MDC or non) are more flexible each has a damage threshold. If I decide (in my game) that falling from a certain height causes you "X MDC" due to the fact that you're moving at "X speed" and you have "X mass" then you take that damage. If I feel that throwing yourself on a fusion block on the ground means that you take full point blank damage, you take full point blank damage. If asked why, I will say "Becasue the blast was amplified due to having limited expansion room". Now, depending upon the amount of damage taken and the location on your body, this could be either be a serious wound or a light wound. Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?). In the end I simply require different things than you for me to suspend my disbelief, BUT as I also said previously, at YOUR gaming table I will follow your rules even if I disagree with them, I will save my questions on that for AFTER the game.

Except declaring a simple fall from a cliff does entirely different damage based on whether or not you're MDC which makes zero sense especially as it requires believing something a hundred or a thousand times more durable than a human being instead of taking less damage takes MORE damage for the same conditions. Sorry but that's like someone with a .357 Magnum when shooting an SDC guy does 20 SDC damage but shooting the MDC guy does 20 MDC damage. Same bullet, same speed, same range, yet somehow the MDC guy is actually a hundred times easier to harm. That's not even close to making sense. If the fall would do 100 SDC damage to that 6' tall, 200 lb SDC human then it's absurd to declare it now does 100 MD to a 6' tall, 200 lb MDC being instead of 1 MDC.

[Nightmask]

Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?).

technically Superman was not actually killed.......he just took a REALLY long to heal and regenerate as per the Return of Superman storyline....

No, he was definitely killed (even made clear during the Blackest Night storyline), it was just the animated 'Death of Superman' where he was just in a coma until he recovered.

[jaymz]

Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?).

technically Superman was not actually killed.......he just took a REALLY long to heal and regenerate as per the Return of Superman storyline....

No, he was definitely killed (even made clear during the Blackest Night storyline), it was just the animated 'Death of Superman' where he was just in a coma until he recovered.

Really? Then they retconned his return as it was explained in the Return of Superman he was not actually dead but in a sort of suspended animation while he regenerated. (picture what happens to a juicer when he takes too much damage) That was why his body was stolen from the tomb and returned to the fortress of solitude. He wasn't resurrected, he recovered.

[Nightmask]

Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?).

technically Superman was not actually killed.......he just took a REALLY long to heal and regenerate as per the Return of Superman storyline....

No, he was definitely killed (even made clear during the Blackest Night storyline), it was just the animated 'Death of Superman' where he was just in a coma until he recovered.

Really? Then they retconned his return as it was explained in the Return of Superman he was not actually dead but in a sort of suspended animation while he regenerated. (picture what happens to a juicer when he takes too much damage) That was why his body was stolen from the tomb and returned to the fortress of solitude. He wasn't resurrected, he recovered.

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

[jaymz]

Even Superman can be killed in a hand to hand fight by someone of equal or greater strength (y'know Superman vs Doomsday?).

technically Superman was not actually killed.......he just took a REALLY long to heal and regenerate as per the Return of Superman storyline....

No, he was definitely killed (even made clear during the Blackest Night storyline), it was just the animated 'Death of Superman' where he was just in a coma until he recovered.

Really? Then they retconned his return as it was explained in the Return of Superman he was not actually dead but in a sort of suspended animation while he regenerated. (picture what happens to a juicer when he takes too much damage) That was why his body was stolen from the tomb and returned to the fortress of solitude. He wasn't resurrected, he recovered.

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

Ah yes thats right..sorry....but that still means he wasn't in fact dead but "recovering". If h had in fact been dead, his body could not recover per se. Mind you I WANTED him dead so.......

[Nightmask]

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

Ah yes thats right..sorry....but that still means he wasn't in fact dead but "recovering". If h had in fact been dead, his body could not recover per se. Mind you I WANTED him dead so.......

Well I think the entire point of Resurrection is that the body recovers once you put the soul back into it and even if the body is revived at some point it was still dead and if it hasn't got your soul you really haven't come back from the dead even if your body's running around again. The 'I Got Better' trope is fairly standard in just about any storytelling that can support it as acceptable to the setting.

[jaymz]

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

Ah yes thats right..sorry....but that still means he wasn't in fact dead but "recovering". If h had in fact been dead, his body could not recover per se. Mind you I WANTED him dead so.......

Well I think the entire point of Resurrection is that the body recovers once you put the soul back into it and even if the body is revived at some point it was still dead and if it hasn't got your soul you really haven't come back from the dead even if your body's running around again. The 'I Got Better' trope is fairly standard in just about any storytelling that can support it as acceptable to the setting.

true enough....now back to our actual topic......

[Nightmask]

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

Ah yes thats right..sorry....but that still means he wasn't in fact dead but "recovering". If h had in fact been dead, his body could not recover per se. Mind you I WANTED him dead so.......

Well I think the entire point of Resurrection is that the body recovers once you put the soul back into it and even if the body is revived at some point it was still dead and if it hasn't got your soul you really haven't come back from the dead even if your body's running around again. The 'I Got Better' trope is fairly standard in just about any storytelling that can support it as acceptable to the setting.

true enough....now back to our actual topic......

Yes, were we can't suspend our disbelief enough to accept that creatures a hundred times more durable than regular creatures will take a hundred times more damage from attacks that they ought not to even notice at all.

[jaymz]

It wasn't a retcon, some speculated that his running on solar energy meant as long as he was in yellow sunlight he'd recover but in truth it was a unique set of events that allowed him to return. His stepfather's near fatal heart attack had his soul meeting Superman's in the afterlife and encouraging him to fight his way back to life, Cadmus stealing Superman's body from the black tomb to attempt to clone him exposed him to sunlight which gave his cells some energy to work with, and so on. His body was later stolen by the Eradicator and put into a birthing Matrix where it was slowly recovering and where it could steal energy to power itself in its form that replicated Superman's form and appearance.

Ah yes thats right..sorry....but that still means he wasn't in fact dead but "recovering". If h had in fact been dead, his body could not recover per se. Mind you I WANTED him dead so.......

Well I think the entire point of Resurrection is that the body recovers once you put the soul back into it and even if the body is revived at some point it was still dead and if it hasn't got your soul you really haven't come back from the dead even if your body's running around again. The 'I Got Better' trope is fairly standard in just about any storytelling that can support it as acceptable to the setting.

true enough....now back to our actual topic......

Yes, were we can't suspend our disbelief enough to accept that creatures a hundred times more durable than regular creatures will take a hundred times more damage from attacks that they ought not to even notice at all.

See above I am on your side of this argument

[Nightmask]

Yes, were we can't suspend our disbelief enough to accept that creatures a hundred times more durable than regular creatures will take a hundred times more damage from attacks that they ought not to even notice at all.

See above I am on your side of this argument

*laughs* That's why I said that. It's definitely not based on logic but more on 'I don't want to accept it', especially when normal humans can albeit rarely survive freefall into the ground yet dragons, demons, and the like are somehow certain to die when they've got so many things on their side it shouldn't do more than inconvenience them. When you're talking things that aren't even real and violate the basic rules of physics (dragons can't fly, the mass to wing ratio is utterly impossibly wrong) you can't even begin to successfully argue that they're just like anything else and ought to suffer just like anything else.

I could stab someone to death with a butter knife so I could do the same to a dragon because he's still flesh and blood? I could shoot a dragon with a handgun and do worse damage to him than to a dog? Things are beyond the idea that you're stretching disbelief too far but more into the area of 'I just don't like it even though it makes sense and is true'. MDC creatures especially the more powerful sorts all have a host of explicit and unwritten secondary powers to support their existence (such as dragons being able to fly). Just as a flower is incapable of resisting a human ripping it from the ground because the human is gifted with things far beyond the flower's ability the same holds true for the MDC creatures in Rifts vs the mortal humans that exist there.

[keir451]

As I have said I run a different style of game. One in which I use the general concepts of physics and apply them equally to ALL levels of the game. Either physics applies to everything in the game equally or it doesn't apply at all, either a dragon can have his head smashed by taking too much MDC, either from a fall or a robots punches or according to you he's immune to all forms of MDC damage?
Which is it? Simple fact if I inflict enough MDC to kill a dragon either by punching him, shooting him, or dropping him from a building or from orbit then I've inflicted enough MDC to kill him. Your argument is equivalent to saying that the dragon does not bleed, does not have internal organs that can be crushed by extreme forces, or brains that can be rattled around inside their skulls by sufficient force. And yet you assert that this very biology is what allows it to take damage differently than an armored vehicle.
MY argument is that despite being MDC the dragon can and does bleed, can be concussed, and (again) if sufficient damage is taken can be killed. It just takes equivalent force, effectively the same amount of force it takes to destroy a 'bot, a tank, or any equivalently armored being/vehicle (MDC is MDC after all), I'm just applying a level of physics and common sense that works across the board.
Again I point out that at YOUR gaming table I will follow YOUR rules, at MY gaming table I expect you to follow MY rules.
What the dragon is really taking damage from is not the fall or the material it is striking but from its own inertia. Since the dragon is MDC he takes MDC.

[Jorel]

What about the fact that the ground isn't necessarily MDC, or is it?

[Damian Magecraft]

What about the fact that the ground isn't necessarily MDC, or is it?

It is both.

[jaymz]

@Kier - I understand what you are saying but I've said and other have said is that your are applying in an unbalanced manner. A dragon will not die by free falling off a building or from any real height as they will not take enough damage. As per the rules on page 346 of RUE (as close to a canon answer we have in regards to knock back/knock down/falling for MD beings) the md being takes 1d6 + 1d6 per 30 miles per hour. In my above example with the human and sea titan the sea titan only takes 5d6md...an average of 18 md, or about 15-20% of their total but by what you've said they would die however above in your last post you say if they take enough damage they will die. You also seem to ignore the fact Dragons are not regular flesh and blood as we know it (being MD notwithstanding) there are infused with magic from the get go which in and of itself makes them NOT obligated to follow our rules of physics.

In my above example I compared to similar sized and weighted objects.

Can you tell me how it makes sense for one, an SDC being, to take upto 500 or so SD while the other takes the equivalent of 3000 sd for no other reason than they are an MDC being? if physics applies to all equally then the MDC being should take the same damage as the SDC being yet they do not.