Giant Robots really strong enough?

[rc_brooks]

I had been looking at the stats on giant robots recently. I know they have 100x PS in lifting and carrying capacity and 200x in dragging.

However, most of those giant robots have a 40-50 PS, which means basically lifting/carrying 4000lbs (2 Tons) to 5000lbs (2.5 Tons) and pulling 8000lbs (4 tons) to 10000lbs (5 tons).

Now, I compare that to my front-end loader (we have a farm). It's just a little guy as these things go. 3.5 tons and 25 hp. I can lift 1 ton with the bucket and move it up a 15 degree incline (that's steeper than you think, in fact its dangerously steep for a vehicle) for as far as needed. Now, it's top speed is only 20 mph in 4 high, but still. This is a small vehicle. My model with the 35 horse motor has half again the capabilities. Our larger tractor, though it does not have a bucket, can pull 10 tons without too much sweat over hills. Today's 1 ton diesel trucks often pull over 10 tons, though that is on paved roads for the most part. As a general rule, most things should be able to pull at least half their own weight. (lifting is completely different)

I can see their own bulk taking a bit of their available "strength" but pulling should be able to take advantage of their own mass (like if you are pulling someone, you lean letting your mass do a portion of the work).

I just thought it was odd that these 30 ton robots could do less work than today's equipment (including the labor models).

[The Galactus Kid]

I agree. I'm actually working on a revision of the Field Mechanic class from W.B. 5 that will actually address some of these issues.

[DhAkael]

General rule O'thumb for bots hefting / toting should be weight of bot X1.5 + Robotic PS rating, for a quick-fix.
Or just ignore the stupid entirely and do your own thang
Cuz we have cranes and robotic arms in varying industrial centers that move objects WAY larger & heavier than what the Palldium super-tech machines can.
Not to mention the example shown at begining of this thread.

[cornholioprime]

I had been looking at the stats on giant robots recently. I know they have 100x PS in lifting and carrying capacity and 200x in dragging.

However, most of those giant robots have a 40-50 PS, which means basically lifting/carrying 4000lbs (2 Tons) to 5000lbs (2.5 Tons) and pulling 8000lbs (4 tons) to 10000lbs (5 tons).

Now, I compare that to my front-end loader (we have a farm). It's just a little guy as these things go. 3.5 tons and 25 hp. I can lift 2 tons with the bucket and move it up a 15 degree incline (that's steeper than you think, in fact its dangerously steep for a vehicle) for as far as needed. Now, it's top speed is only 20 mph in 4 high, but still. This is a small vehicle. My same model with the 35 horse motor has half again the capabilities. Our larger tractor, though it does not have a bucket, can pull 10 tons without too much sweat over hills. Today's 1 ton diesel trucks often pull over 10 tons, though that is on paved roads for the most part. As a general rule, most things should be able to pull at least half their own weight. (lifting is completely different)

I can see their own bulk taking a bit of their available "strength" but pulling should be able to take advantage of their own mass (like if you are pulling someone, you lean letting your mass do a portion of the work).

I just thought it was odd that these 30 ton robots could do less work than today's equipment (including the labor models).

The Strength Attribute is there ONLY as a Gameplay Mechanic, for determining damage in combat.

Remember that Rifts is a GAME first; "real world sense-maker" is a far, far, far distant second as a priority (as is the case with most fictional works).

You want to look at somewhat more "realistic" Strength Values for Robots and Superhumanly strong characters?

Go look at some of the NPCs and Powers and Abilities in Palladium's "Heroes/Villains Unlimited" game modules.

[rc_brooks]

I mention it because they have special modifiers for "giant robots" in reference to lifting/carrying and pulling. So while I understand it's primary function is a combat statistic, they have made adjustments specifically for their size.

It is that adjustment that I am considering for adjustment and wanted to see what others may feel. I had considered a lifting/carry capacity as something higher. Perhaps up to PSx1000 and pulling x2000 up to a percentage of their mass. Perhaps the cap on lifting/carrying is 20% of mass and pulling 50% of mass. I want to keep it simple but still be in the ball park for my players' sakes.

I will be interested in seeing what you do to the field mechanic! Should be exciting.

[azazel1024]

Dragging is going to vary so wildly it isn't funny. Are you dragging a sled with a load on it across dirt? Gravel? Pavement? Is it actually a trailer on pavement? Rocks in a net across broken ground?

Maximum amount that the bot should be able to drag, unless the thing in question is on wheels, is the bots weight. More than that and the bot likely isn't going to have the traction to move it, without tugging at it a bunch.

Picture you trying to pull something heavier than you are across the ground...once the object gets close to your weight, you just don't have the traction to pull it anymore and you are stuck tugging it along in brief bursts. A giant robot would be no different, no matter how strong it is.

For carrying...now there it might be able to handle a huge amount of weight. Something to consider though, giant robots are designed to move QUICKLY. That means much less power. A forklift with a 6,000lb capacity doesn't lift its forks, even without load on them very fast at maximum rate. This is because its hydraulics are designed to move a lot of weight.

Now the giant robots are probably using some hybrid of hydraulics, servos, linear actuators and maybe even some kind of artificial myofibril component (think of the bots from Battletech for this last one). So it is of course possible that they can switch seemlessly from a high strength, low speed movement to a lower strength high speed movement method, or even vary continuously between them.

But, just comparing a hydraulic forklift with a giant robot designed for high speed running and combat isn't really equitable at all. I do agree that lifting strength should be higher. I'd simply use bot weightx1/20th of PS. Bot weighs 3t with a PS of 30, it can lift 4.5t, has a PS of 40 it can lift 6t. Dragging I'd just rule that all bots can drag up to their own weight behind them and no more.

[TechnoGothic]

I use the Lifting/Carry weights from Heroes Unlimited. Robots and Power Armor have Robotic/Superhuman PS there. Which is much better than Rifts.
Carry PSx200, Lift PSx300. And you can drag at least twice as Lift for Drag PSx600.

[dragonfett]

Don't forget that RV's have a VERY different center of gravity due to their design, not to mention throwing punches and kicks in combat.

[taalismn]

If it looks like it should be able to benchpress and throw a truck, let it throw the truck.

[cornholioprime]

If it looks like it should be able to benchpress and throw a truck, let it throw the truck.

What he said.

Keep its Strength Attributes for the purposes of gameplay; but apart from that, you should just say to hell with the PS when it comes to something cool-looking like, say, "giving a lift" to a stranded Death's Head Transport by picking it up -or, if the size differential is too great, dragging it back to town like Arnold as Conan at the giant millstone.

[Jason Richards]

The general answer to "Are giant robots _____ enough" is "no." Not strong enough. Not tough enough. Not fast enough (usually). Not damaging enough.

The phrasing on that last one is a bit awkward, but you get my drift.

[Shark_Force]

actually, i'd say most of them are probably fast enough. it's more that smaller power armors and robots are too fast. honestly, could you imagine a human-sized robot (or cyborg) that could run hundreds of miles per hour? imagine how fast the legs would have to move to do that...

[azazel1024]

actually, i'd say most of them are probably fast enough. it's more that smaller power armors and robots are too fast. honestly, could you imagine a human-sized robot (or cyborg) that could run hundreds of miles per hour? imagine how fast the legs would have to move to do that...

Its less human sized robots or cyborgs, but power armor that I have the issue with.

Even if you didn't have to use any of your own strength, and even if the things were well supporting and padded like hell, your like churning along to run at 90mph in a suit of power armor is probably going to HURT. Even if the stride is a lot longer than a human stride (think how Cheetahs run, their legs don't move all that much faster than human legs, but their strides are rediculously long in comparison)...you still talking about milling your legs 2, or 3 or 4 times faster than the fastest human can possibly run. Your reaction times probably aren't even fast enough to manage to run in any kind of controlled manner, and fatiguing at a lower rate? Yeah right the suits going to be doing all of the work, though it would be pretty exhausting to try to control this in anyway, lot alone have it spinning your legs like that.

I can see faster than human speeds in power armor, but I think realistically for reasons of control, and possible damage to your legs (even in excellently controlled running) you are probably talking more like 40-60mph absolute MAX for any kind of power armor in which your legs are moving with the legs of the suit (the Ultimax-1000 is considered power armor, but you sit in the thing, this shouldn't have any kind of limits).

A cyborg with fully bionic legs, a robot or robot vehicle shouldn't have any real limits as to how fast it can run. That said, booking at 90mph at a dead run is ridiculously fast, and I hope you are doing it in a wide open area. Laws of physics still apply (okay they don't in RPGs, but whatever), that means short of digging anchors in to the ground, a borg running at 90mph is probably going to take something like 150-300ft to come to a full and complete halt from 90mph and at least as long, or probably longer to accelerate up to that speed. You also have changing direction which takes a bit of time.

You could certainly reduce those distances if you assume legs/feet with really great traction (football players have been measured at 2-3G of acceleration in sideways thrusts and sprinters, without starting blocks, have been measured at over 1g in acceleration, this is of course all for fractions of a second). Figure some small retractable spikes, like hobnails or cross country shoe spikes and the bot/borg/vehicle might be able to manage over a G of acceleration/decceleration depending on the terrain...but no matter what, it takes time.

You ain't running down the hallway of that building at 120mph and taking that hairpin turn. You take length of the office building to get up to 100mph, go to take the turn at the end of the hall way and end up scratching your head trying to figure out why you went right through the cinderblock wall and are on your kesster 60ft from the building.

[The Galactus Kid]

The general answer to "Are giant robots _____ enough" is "no." Not strong enough. Not tough enough. Not fast enough (usually). Not damaging enough.

The phrasing on that last one is a bit awkward, but you get my drift.

I would agree with this pretty much 100%

[Rimmer]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

[The Galactus Kid]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

[cornholioprime]

Like Megadamage foods being consumed by SDC Creatures, some of you are waaaaaaaaaaaay over-thinking the concept of this whole Strength thing.

Just sayin.'

[DhAkael]

Only one way to solve this
Rool uv Kewl!!!
Full stop. End of line.

[Bood Samel]

The general answer to "Are giant robots _____ enough" is "no." Not strong enough. Not tough enough. Not fast enough (usually). Not damaging enough.

The phrasing on that last one is a bit awkward, but you get my drift.

A good example of what giant robots should be like are the Titans in warhammer 40k. Anybody who's read any of the warhammer novels that deal with titans know that every one craps their pants when the Titans are pulled out. The average rifts party if they are clever and coordinated with one another can take out the biggest CS robots. Some foes in a RPG should not be able to be killed by sheer blow to blow violence, but by some sort of clever action or trickery. Rifts doesn't have any Godzilla type monsters either. Not the gigantic alien intelligences, but rather just big dumb monsters to big to be killed by conventional weapons so it has to be defeated by some manner of cleverness. A giant robot should be like a Godzilla-type monster. You should be crapping in urban warrior suit when you see it coming.

[Rimmer]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

You are kidding right ?

[The Galactus Kid]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

You are kidding right ?

No. Its bolted to the back of the thing, so the guns weight is alread taken into consideration in the design.

[The Galactus Kid]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

You are kidding right ?

no thats the standard handwave to explain how 20 ton robots can move when they only have enough ps to pick up 2 tons

Pretty much. It's kind of like how the advertised towing weight of a pick up truck doesn't include the weight of the truck itself.

[cornholioprime]

Like Megadamage foods being consumed by SDC Creatures, some of you are waaaaaaaaaaaay over-thinking the concept of this whole Strength thing.

Just sayin.'

whats to overthink?

What's to overthink!?

Believing that Kevin wanted -or needed -to go to all the trouble of first calculating the weight of a vehicles and robots and cyborgs and what-have-you in his games, and then create a Strength System afterwards to account for those weights, THAT is overthinking the issue.

The Strength Tables are there for one reason and one reason only -Damage Dealt in Combat Rolls.
Nothing else.

You might not have noticed this, but if you look carefully at the PS ratings/Dice Roll Ranges of most people and things that have it, they aren't even strong enough to propel their own weight around just based on those raw PS numbers, much less lift anything extra!!

lifting & carrying is a way simple rule & its broken.

It isn't 'broken' because the Author of the Games didn't feel the need to have your average Combat Robot toting around the furniture in your house.
Said Robots are supposed to pummel the Holy Hannah out of the enemy with their long-range weaponry, and in combat are supposed to deal out various amounts of Damage with that PS attribute that, when rolled on the dice, corresponds just fine (note that I said "correspond," not "match") to the damage put out by its normal weaponry.

This is why The Hundred-Handed Ones have a PS rating of "only" 60, yet spend their days tossing around super-massive boulders bigger than they are for fun; this is why Atlas, the strongest being outside of the Heroes Unlimited setting, has a PS of "only" 90 but is currently holding up a small mountain -literally!!

The PS Number is for YOU to ROLL DAMAGE with, nothing else.
What you have the Creature do in terms of "Cool Factor" is between you and your GM.

robots in pallys games are big ol metal Monty Burnses who are so totes feeble they cant even pick up their own guns.

Except that they do.

ALL THE TIME.
PLUS THE COMBINED WEIGHT OF THE CREW.
PLUS THE FULL WEIGHT OF THEIR WEAPONS LOADOUT (MISSILES, et al).
PLUS THEIR MAIN WEAPON (GUN, GUNS, SWORDS, et al).
PLUS, IN SOME CASES, MASSIVE DRUMS OF EXTRA AMMO AND/OR 'SNAP-ON' COMPLIMENTARY WEAPONRY SUCH AS MISSILE LAUNCHERS.

In other words:
Cool Looking Stuff is for firing up the imagination and can be whatever you want to envision, and whatever your GM allows.
But the PS Numbers are strictly a game mechanism for rolling damage.

And this is by the deliberate design of the Authors, who didn't feel as if they had to break down the details of the Game World to the Nth Degree.
Like all writers of fictional settings, they were assuming and hoping in the process that their players and fans would suspend at least some disbelief and not try to overcomplicate their game by turning it into a Realism Contest.

[Rimmer]

Then why even list a carry or lift ratio when its obviously not needed ? at least by your reasoning.

[Rimmer]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

You are kidding right ?

no thats the standard handwave to explain how 20 ton robots can move when they only have enough ps to pick up 2 tons

Pretty much. It's kind of like how the advertised towing weight of a pick up truck doesn't include the weight of the truck itself.

At least the tow truck is actually able to "carry" out its job of towing a car.

Sorry for the pun.

[Rimmer]

Robots are not the only ones with problems, most power armors would have this problem as well, for example, the Glitter Boy is not strong enough to carry the boom gun.

Its "Integrated" so it doesn't really count.

You are kidding right ?

No. Its bolted to the back of the thing, so the guns weight is alread taken into consideration in the design.

So if you unbolt the boom gun to say swap sides with it, the GB is now unable to lift it back up, then once it gets bolted back on it able to carry it again ?

[cornholioprime]

Then why even list a carry or lift ratio when its obviously not needed ? at least by your reasoning.

It's not my 'reasoning,' it's simply the way that it is.

MAYBE, every once in a while, somebody might be told by their GM that they can't carry any more of ________________ due to what they are already carrying, but seriously, how many people/GM in this particular Game are even worried anymore (if they ever were) about keeping track of the Encumbrance on each and every PC??

Much less the lifting capabilities of a bunch of Cyborgs or Demons or Giant Robots, for that matter?

[Rimmer]

Then why even list a carry or lift ratio when its obviously not needed ? at least by your reasoning.

It's not my 'reasoning,' it's simply the way that it is.

MAYBE, every once in a while, somebody might be told by their GM that they can't carry any more of ________________ due to what they are already carrying, but seriously, how many people/GM in this particular Game are even worried anymore (if they ever were) about keeping track of the Encumbrance on each and every PC??

Much less the lifting capabilities of a bunch of Cyborgs or Demons or Giant Robots, for that matter?

As i said, why bother with having set amounts in black and white for lifting and carrying weights, why not

"As much as the GM lets you get away with"

If you are going to include such things the least you could do is reference your own material.

[dragonfett]

Encumberance, what's that?

[Rimmer]

Encumberance, what's that?

Something i only keep a cursory note of, I'm more interested how far I can throw the other guy.

[The Galactus Kid]

Speaking of Triax, I'm posting my update of the NGR Field Mechanic in a couple minutes. Check it out.

[Saitou Hajime]

The general answer to "Are giant robots _____ enough" is "no." Not strong enough. Not tough enough. Not fast enough (usually). Not damaging enough.

The phrasing on that last one is a bit awkward, but you get my drift.

A good example of what giant robots should be like are the Titans in warhammer 40k. Anybody who's read any of the warhammer novels that deal with titans know that every one craps their pants when the Titans are pulled out. The average rifts party if they are clever and coordinated with one another can take out the biggest CS robots. Some foes in a RPG should not be able to be killed by sheer blow to blow violence, but by some sort of clever action or trickery. Rifts doesn't have any Godzilla type monsters either. Not the gigantic alien intelligences, but rather just big dumb monsters to big to be killed by conventional weapons so it has to be defeated by some manner of cleverness. A giant robot should be like a Godzilla-type monster. You should be crapping in urban warrior suit when you see it coming.

Titans are also 100's of feet high too, Warlords are nearly a small Skyline on legs

[The Galactus Kid]

The ps discusses the amount that the unit can carry outside of it's stat block. Crew, weapons, sensors, armor is all included.

[Jason Richards]

The ps discusses the amount that the unit can carry outside of it's stat block. Crew, weapons, sensors, armor is all included.

This sums it up as best as is possible.

Are there wonky things in the lift/carry rules? Absolutely, but some of you seem to be just looking for things to complain about. The flip side to a general catch-all PS rule that is imperfect and sometimes wonky is some kind of tiered encumbrance penalty system which is a pain and slows down everything about the game, and STILL can be broken by different situations.

I often say this, but I don't understand people complaining when their style of play isn't directly and totally supported by the canon. If you want to play Rifts as a resource-intensive, calculated mecha game where there are strict rules of mechanics and physics at play with your giant robots, that's awesome. However, that's not representative of the fast and loose, "man that was AWESOME!" style in which Rifts is presented. The game is written and designed toward a certain play style, and if you veer away from that, you can't expect it to perfectly support your preferred type of game.

[dragonfett]

According to the rules, my PS (IRL) would be about 5 to 7. So if we follow the logic that if you fall on the ground, your PS needs to be high enough to pick yourself up off of the ground, that would mean that my 270 lb body would be calling for 911 because I fell and could not get up. And that would really suck considering that I would be doing that every morning due to the fact that my bed is just a mattress on the floor.

[TechnoGothic]

Seriously, RIFTS needs to update its PS material to match the other settings.
Once HU2 introduced Extraordinary PS, Superhuman PS, and Supernatural PS offically to it own setting, all the other game lines shoul dbe updated to include these classes of strength.

After the Bomb also introduced better PS levels for the Lower Strength Levels commonly found in Rifts, Nightbane, BtS, etc...

Brute Strength = Strong PS = Carry x20, Lift x40
Savage Strength = Augenmented PS = Carry x40, Lift x80
Beastial Strength = Rifts Supernatural PS = Carry x50, Lift x100.
>Add to this the HU2 Strengths<
Extraordinary Strength = Cybernetic = Carry x100, Lift x200
Supernhuman Strength = Robotic = Carry x200, Lift x300
Supernatural Strength = True Supernatural PS = Carry x300, Lift x500

Really what is so hard about including these in a united manner for the game lines to make them truely a Megaversal system.
Since PB seem to be planning on Revisting Old books to update them to RUE, we might as well wait for Rifts to do a true 2nd Edition and include the various strengths to add more variety. We could elminate so many Dbees or critters having Supernatural and give them another better suited strength level.

I would say these Strength levels would be SDC based :
Normal PS, Brute PS, Savage PS, Beastial PS.
I Would say these Strength Levels would be MD Based :
Extraordinary PS, Superhuman PS, Supernatural PS.

Also. It should include a Chart for the SDC Strength Tables for damages based on Strength.
Also. It should include a Chart for the MDC Strength Tables for Damages based on Strength.

[Rimmer]

The ps discusses the amount that the unit can carry outside of it's stat block. Crew, weapons, sensors, armor is all included.

Your gonna have to come up with page number and reference for this one please.

[Rimmer]

The ps discusses the amount that the unit can carry outside of it's stat block. Crew, weapons, sensors, armor is all included.

This sums it up as best as is possible.

Are there wonky things in the lift/carry rules? Absolutely, but some of you seem to be just looking for things to complain about. The flip side to a general catch-all PS rule that is imperfect and sometimes wonky is some kind of tiered encumbrance penalty system which is a pain and slows down everything about the game, and STILL can be broken by different situations.

I often say this, but I don't understand people complaining when their style of play isn't directly and totally supported by the canon. If you want to play Rifts as a resource-intensive, calculated mecha game where there are strict rules of mechanics and physics at play with your giant robots, that's awesome. However, that's not representative of the fast and loose, "man that was AWESOME!" style in which Rifts is presented. The game is written and designed toward a certain play style, and if you veer away from that, you can't expect it to perfectly support your preferred type of game.

Game style and or play style really don't come into it when "X" cannot carry "Y" when clearly depicted and written in black and white on page "Z"

[Dog_O_War]

Giant robots have a strength stat because they are humanoid in shape. People think of and treat them as if they were humanoids; this is correct to do so.

Unfortunately, some of you are thinking of them like they were machines. While they are machines, their design is not for lifting, carrying, etc... As in, they are not cranes mounted on trucks capable of lifting 1000 tons and pulling an ocean liner.

That a giant robot has a strength score is a foot in the right direction as far as separating them from machines that are designed for lifting and pulling.



The problem is the Physical Strength stat itself. It makes no real attempt to compensate larger or differently shaped beings with appropriate strengths at all. Take for example a fury beetle; it has a PS of between 34 and 44, but has dozens of legs and is also about 20 feet long and weighs 10-16 tons. This thing is massive, yet it is only slightly stronger than a Grackle-Tooth (by about 10 points), which is around a 10th its size. Why then is this thing barely stronger?

A design flaw in the stat itself. It has nothing to do with giant robots, and everything in how the stat was designed. The stat governs a flat, linear increase; that is fine for creatures that do not deviate from that line, but unfortunately things do.

The more legs a creature has, the more it should be able to lift and pull.
The larger a creature is, the larger their muscle-mass, and the more it should count.

Basically the fix for this problem can be very simple; create a multiplier for creature size and shape.

A simple one is that for each additional pair of legs a creature possess, it can carry and pull +.5 times as much as a being with equivalent strength. The above-mentioned fury beetle, with its two-dozen legs (an estimate - I couldn't find an exact number) would then be capable of carrying and pulling 6.5 times (+5.5 times) as much as a creature that only had two legs.

Then there comes weight. A basic fix I use it to use weight right in the calculation:
a 10 strength is considered average for the purposes of rolling 3d6, which is kinda the default of the game, so at 10, you can lift your own body weight as a max. lift. Your carry weight is 1/4 this.

For every interval you find acceptable (I use 5), you can lift 1.25 this number. So at PS 15, you can lift 1.25 times your body weight. A fury beetle then, with its average of about 40 PS could lift 2.5 times its body weight, or about 25-30 tons.
Factor its legs (combine the multipliers, do not multiply them) and a fury beetle can pull about 8 times its body weight, or about 80-128 tons. It makes sense, given that this is a monstrous creature larger than an elephant.

How then do supernatural, robotic, and augmented strength factor in to all of this? That can be up to you; you can give an additional multiplier: Augmented lifts + 1x; Robotic +5x; Supernatural lifts 10x.
But that creates a whole new problem.

My personal choice was simply to have the creature in-question be considered +X stronger for lifting purposes. Augmented was +5; Robotic +10; Supernatural +20.



Just something to consider.

[Shark_Force]

alternately, imo a better solution is that instead of a PS entry, just put a "load" entry into each robot. this would tell you how much it can carry beyond it's own weight.

i mean, pretty much every single robot tells you exactly how much damage it does in hand-to-hand combat with assorted maneuvers. it's not like we need the robotic PS information for damage. so... just give it a different stat. how strong is the robot? strong enough to carry X pounds (X/2.2 kilograms). what does that translate into in terms of PS? honestly, i don't care. it translates into X pounds, that's all i need to know. and for the purposes of using infantry heavy weapons with a minimum strength, the robot should count as having a strength of "are you seriously even asking if an infantry weapon is too heavy to be used by a robot that weighs several tons?"

[Saitou Hajime]

Honestly the Humaniod form is not very good at lifting and such anyway. all of these Humanoid robot work like the human body, which is terrible at lifting things. it all class three leavers Fulcrum at one end, "muscle" in the middle and load on the end. Very bad design, but hany for other things like terrian.

[Shark_Force]

Honestly the Humaniod form is not very good at lifting and such anyway. all of these Humanoid robot work like the human body, which is terrible at lifting things. it all class three leavers Fulcrum at one end, "muscle" in the middle and load on the end. Very bad design, but hany for other things like terrian.

yeah but genre shoud trump realism esp. in a game like rifts thats totes gonzo anyway. if we were bein realistic giant robots woud have way less mdc than tanks & theyd break every road they walk on & theyd get bogged down a lot even in dry ground & most of them look so topheavy theyd fall over all the time. what we want is robots that act like they do in cartoons & that means badass engines o death that can pick up tanks & give em a backbreaker over their knee & that means robot ps needs a shot of steroids

well, i would actually be inclined to have tanks be higher MDC, able to haul more (though obviously, lacking arms, they won't be throwing anything around), and probably even go faster. where the humanoid robots should win out is in maneuverability and intuitive piloting with cyberlinks, imo. they should have better dodge, initiative, parry, and strike bonuses, be able to handle tougher terrain, benefit from cover more easily, and in general be a very versatile, adaptable machine. tanks and other vehicles would be much better at taking the shots, but the robot vehicles should be better at not getting hit in the first place imo.

[cornholioprime]

In other words:
Cool Looking Stuff is for firing up the imagination and can be whatever you want to envision, and whatever your GM allows.
But the PS Numbers are strictly a game mechanism for rolling damage.

And this is by the deliberate design of the Authors, who didn't feel as if they had to break down the details of the Game World to the Nth Degree.
Like all writers of fictional settings, they were assuming and hoping in the process that their players and fans would suspend at least some disbelief and not try to overcomplicate their game by turning it into a Realism Contest.

sorry. didnt realise that ps and carrying arent connected. my copy of the rules has a misprint i guess

So tell me:

Whenever you do a Grapple Attack, or attempt to do a Pin and Throw (things which are also in your Rules), does your GM only have you to roll the dice per normal game rules -or does he also force you to check your PS versus the weight of the opponent that you're attempting to throw, possibly not even allowing you to carry out the maneuver if your opponent is too heavy?

Or does he allow your opponent, if heavier, to get additional advantages over you if you are both locked in close combat (after all, that's how Greater Weight works In The Real World)??

Or how about all of the stuff in your backpack -are you REALLY telling me with a straight face that your GM keeps track of it all for each and every character?
(Or is it, instead, a sort of informal 'honor system' between you and your GM whereby neither of you keep track of the weight of every bit of loot, but at the same time you don't try to lug a pickup truck on your way to the wizard's aerie?)
Does your GM impose penalties as your backpack load and weapons and armor approaches or exceeds your PS attribute? I seriously doubt it.


PS is there to hep you do the damage math; it MIGHT have, originally, been intended to be used in a way other than to determine melee damage, but it didn't go anywhere -and it is probably the case that even 95% of those of you who are complaining about how 'broken' the Lifting part of the PS attribute is, don't have a real, regular, meaningful use for it in your own games.

Which, in turn, is probably why the PS formula hasn't ever been revamped.

[Rimmer]

In other words:
Cool Looking Stuff is for firing up the imagination and can be whatever you want to envision, and whatever your GM allows.
But the PS Numbers are strictly a game mechanism for rolling damage.

And this is by the deliberate design of the Authors, who didn't feel as if they had to break down the details of the Game World to the Nth Degree.
Like all writers of fictional settings, they were assuming and hoping in the process that their players and fans would suspend at least some disbelief and not try to overcomplicate their game by turning it into a Realism Contest.

sorry. didnt realise that ps and carrying arent connected. my copy of the rules has a misprint i guess

So tell me:

Whenever you do a Grapple Attack, or attempt to do a Pin and Throw (things which are also in your Rules), does your GM only have you to roll the dice per normal game rules -or does he also force you to check your PS versus the weight of the opponent that you're attempting to throw, possibly not even allowing you to carry out the maneuver if your opponent is too heavy?

Or does he allow your opponent, if heavier, to get additional advantages over you if you are both locked in close combat (after all, that's how Greater Weight works In The Real World)??

Or how about all of the stuff in your backpack -are you REALLY telling me with a straight face that your GM keeps track of it all for each and every character?
(Or is it, instead, a sort of informal 'honor system' between you and your GM whereby neither of you keep track of the weight of every bit of loot, but at the same time you don't try to lug a pickup truck on your way to the wizard's aerie?)
Does your GM impose penalties as your backpack load and weapons and armor approaches or exceeds your PS attribute? I seriously doubt it.


PS is there to hep you do the damage math; it MIGHT have, originally, been intended to be used in a way other than to determine melee damage, but it didn't go anywhere -and it is probably the case that even 95% of those of you who are complaining about how 'broken' the Lifting part of the PS attribute is, don't have a real, regular, meaningful use for it in your own games.

Which, in turn, is probably why the PS formula hasn't ever been revamped.

{Old pompus english voice}

The gall of it all, these new fangled radical gamers actually wanting to use Strength stats for lifting of all things, the sheer preposterousness of it, next you will have me believing an Intelligence stat should have some bearing on skills dang it all.

[azazel1024]

Sort of maybe. A 30ft robot vehicle though is probably going to be very lightly armored compared to a tank. So a 30ft robot vehicle might only way 20 tons. That is still alot, but a 20 ton robot vehicle being able to heft a 70 ton main battle tank over its head is pretty far fetched. Now something like the devestator, a 70+ft tall massive robot vehicle seems totally plausable to me.

A "little dinky" 30ft CS bot vehicle hefting that 70 T tanks just doesn't seem likely.

Also it does irk me that tanks and APCs generally have lower MDC than robot vehicles. As mentioned, robot vehicles should have gobs of mobility and dodge bonus, piloting bonuses and the ability to handle really rough terrain and parry attacks (as well as physically grapple). They shouldn't be faster, nor should they be nearly as heavily armored.

For the same power plant, it is inifinitely easier and cheaper to propel a given weight on either wheels or tank treads than it is on legs. A 4,000HP micro nuclear reactor might be able to power a 30ft, 20t robot vehicle to 60-70mph at a flat out dead run, but it could probably power a 70t treaded tank to 80-100mph.

You also don't need to actively support the weight when it is one a wheel/treaded chasis compared to needing to have arm and leg joints that have to support the weight just to move. Also easier to make thicker armor on a tank. On a bot if you put 12 inches of armor, limbs have to get truely massive to still have power runs, control runs, servos, hydraulics, ammo feeds, etc, etc, etc running through them. A tank, no such worries. Robots also have a heck of a lot more surface area that has to be armored for a similar size.

So realistically a "main battle" robot vehicle probably would be in the 20-30T range and stand around 30-40ft tall and maybe have around 350-500MDC and run around 50-60mph. A "main battle" tank on the other hand is probably going to be more like 60-100t, be maybe 25-30ft in length and have around 1,000-1,500MDC and be able to move at around 50-80mph. The bot on the other hand can tackle broken terrain, can climb over things, can duck, can (maybe) swim (though a tank might have some limited flotation ability), and would probably have some decent bonuses to dodge, where as a tank is going to have some big penalties to dodge.
-Matt

[cornholioprime]

thats a looooong way of saying u wanna pretend that the problems with ps in this thread dont exist dude

No, that's a looooong way of saying "You CAN reach levels of Overkill when trying to force this Game (or any other, for that matter) to meet some crazy level of Realism, rather than just sitting back and enjoying a Game that has enough things to roll dice for, as it is."


The few instances of Thrown/Hurled Weapons in the Books already use existing PS damage rolls to determine how much damage you're going to do with those Weapons anyway, so, tell me again why you think that Kevin somehow needs to revamp the whole Strength System.

That is to say, what do you want to get out of the Game System that you can't get out of it right now with about a few milliseconds of effort on you and your GM's part to simply say, "Yeah, your Robot can rip that 15-ton Turret off the disabled tank and throw it into that crowd of oncoming demons" (then roll for damage as normal)??

[Rimmer]

Yeah, stupid us for refering to the robot or power armors "PS" stats for any idea of how much it can or cannot lift, how could we be so ignorant.

[cornholioprime]

Yeah, stupid us for refering to the robot or power armors "PS" stats for any idea of how much it can or cannot lift, how could we be so ignorant.

It's not stupid to point out how the PS system works in terms of Lifting.

It DOES strike me as "stupid," however, to gripe about a part of the system that few people, if anyone at all, actually ever uses on a regular basis in-game. As if the game just won't work properly (or won't work at all) unless and until Kevin totally revamps all of the Lifting Tables until the Robots are capable of lifting and throwing objects YOU think are cool.

Allow the Robot to pick up the Building Pylon or Tank Turret or Wrecked Vehicle -without rules-lawyering whether or not the thing can actually do so with their PS attribute -allow it to throw or wield the thing, then roll for melee damage as usual per the PS score.

No biggie.

[Rimmer]

Cool dosent really come into it when the GB cannot lift its own gun, stupidity does in not referencing your own material when pulling stats out of the air.

[azazel1024]

GB gun is mounted to the shoulder, so it doesn't need dynamic lifting strength to be able to use it.

Next, PS for lifting and carry does not take in to account leg strength at all.

I can lift about 250-300lbs or a little more if its isn't an ackward weight. I can about the same or a little more on my back positioned right (though not far). I might manage lifting 150lbs over my head on a good day. I can however leg press about 1,000lbs...or well I used to be able to when I was running track and cross country. These days it is more like 800lbs. That is well over 3x as much as I can lift up.

Picture it as a giant robot. Just because their strength might only be enough to say, lift 4,000lbs, that doesn't mean they don't have the leg strength to go running about. It just might mean they aren't doing chin-ups on that cliff over there or tossing another robot, or hefting one up over its head. Its legs are much stronger than its arms. Might also mean it is a little ackward getting back up if it falls over, but just because it can't lift it's own weight doesn't mean it can do a push up or push in to a standing position. I know plenty of 90lb weaklings (or 300lb over weight dudes) who cannot for the life of them do a chin-up or lift their own body weight...but they can still stand up and walk/run if they fall over.

Seems perfectly plausible to me that this is the case with a giant robot.

PS Hell, how many people who aren't fairly athletic can actually life their own body weight, let alone a lot more than their body weight??? Not many. PS system has its issues for giant robots (and non-giant robots) but it isn't so horribly and clearly broken as all that.