Can the Arkangel-class Colony Fortress split apart?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:21 am

Ok,

I was perusing a couple of the sketches of the Arkangel-class colony ships and I noticed that they have engines set in the forward end. There really isn't any reason that I could fathom for them to be there since their backblast would frag the command tower and the flight decks. There has to some other purpose for them. Then it occured to me that perhaps the Arkangel-class can split apart for emergency operations. The forward end could be a sort of battleship (given the Synchro-cannon) while the rear acts as a sort of lifeboat.

Arkangel-class Colony Fortress sketch

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:24 pm

Great shades of Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear(the ramscoop colony ship has a forward-mounted 'Battle Module') and Macross 7!

Actually, given its similarity to the forward opening on the SDF-4, it could also be an equipment bay with generic 'intriguing looking arrays inside that we can't be bothered to detail'....

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:48 am

While I didn't think about it when I was looking at the art in the art book I to noticed those engines.

However, as to splitting into two sections like the Queadol-Magdomilla Command Ship,
there is no data.
Or to say, what little data there is does not say it does.

Taking a 2nd look, those are most likely attitudinal thrusters by their placement and angles.

Cybermancer · Unread post by **Cybermancer** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:51 am

It's plausible although I wouldn't want to swear to it as fact.

Weren't the Neutron S missiles originally built into colony vessel chasis (as per the Prelude comics)? That would suggest a continuation of a design philosophy as we do see them break apart in stages. It's certainly not proof as the original animation was probably just trying to show the Neuton S's as big honking multi-stage weapons.

Still, it's plausible enough to use in a game until some type of canon says otherwise.

Edit: Just remembered. The SDF-4 has a similar set of oddly arranged, main bridge burning, thrusters.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:00 am

Cybermancer wrote:It's plausible although I wouldn't want to swear to it as fact.

Weren't the Neutron S missiles originally built into colony vessel chasis (as per the Prelude comics)? That would suggest a continuation of a design philosophy as we do see them break apart in stages. It's certainly not proof as the original animation was probably just trying to show the Neuton S's as big honking multi-stage weapons.

Still, it's plausible enough to use in a game until some type of canon says otherwise.

Edit: Just remembered. The SDF-4 has a similar set of oddly arranged, main bridge burning, thrusters.

Actually, the Neutron S missiles were built ON the colony vessel chassis....depends on how much of the original vessel plans carried over into the missile design...whether it was just the propulsion bus or the whole schmeil....like the 'mushroom' being an oversized landing vehicle similar to the Zentraedi Reentry Pod...

Novastar · Unread post by **Novastar** » Fri May 01, 2009 5:23 pm

You're assuming the thrust vector is directed aft, rather than upwards...

They could be manuevering thrusters.

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:04 pm

I could see a split working with the aft of the ship landing for colonization while the front remains in orbit for defense.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sat May 02, 2009 11:24 pm

Novastar wrote:You're assuming the thrust vector is directed aft, rather than upwards...

They could be manuevering thrusters.

If you look @ them, the angling gives an armor cover to them from the front.

Unread post by **NMI** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:40 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Ok,

I was perusing a couple of the sketches of the Arkangel-class colony ships and I noticed that they have engines set in the forward end. There really isn't any reason that I could fathom for them to be there since their backblast would frag the command tower and the flight decks. There has to some other purpose for them. Then it occured to me that perhaps the Arkangel-class can split apart for emergency operations. The forward end could be a sort of battleship (given the Synchro-cannon) while the rear acts as a sort of lifeboat.

Arkangel-class Colony Fortress sketch

Got a bigger image where the writing can be made out?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Sun May 03, 2009 6:42 pm

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Got a bigger image where the writing can be made out?

Ark Angel resized

Best I can do. The writing near the upper deck thrusters appears to indicate the anti-spacecraft guns mounted there instead of the engines themselves.

Unread post by **NMI** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:30 pm

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:
Mr. Deific NMI wrote:Got a bigger image where the writing can be made out?

Ark Angel resized

Best I can do. The writing near the upper deck thrusters appears to indicate the anti-spacecraft guns mounted there instead of the engines themselves.

Hell, I could have done that. LOL
Thanks for the effort though.
any chance that there is a version of the image that has readable writing?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Sun May 03, 2009 8:48 pm

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:any chance that there is a version of the image that has readable writing?

Your guess is as good as mine. I'm still waiting for a readable version of the Gamma Fighter artwork that is 8 years old now.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Mon May 04, 2009 5:52 pm

The version of that image in The Art of Shadow Chronicles is readable, and that writting near the top is "Anti-spacecraft guns", also reffered to as an "anti-ship beam turret" in another piece of art.

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:28 am

I just noticed that the Shadow Refit SDF-3 also has these midship thrusters behind the booms.

Avatara · Unread post by **Avatara** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:22 am

I can think of a reason for engines in the front. Turning, going backwards, or just plain to increase maneuvering. of course sense its an anime they are probably super cannons.

rtsurfer · Unread post by **rtsurfer** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:55 am

The SDF-4 does have similar engines in the back of its cannon and in front of the command tower. Who knows what Tommy was thinking, it might split apart somewhat like the Macross Colony vessels?

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:33 pm

I think it would make sense to have a colony ship be able to split open and drop off the prefabricated colony town with funtional power plant.

Beatmeclever · Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:08 pm

Gryphon wrote:Well, if it transforms, these are clearly the thrusters on the "back", so that sort of explains them on this thing. It doesn't explain a simlar set on the SDF-4 at all though, unless they are holdovers of some sort.

Unless the SDF-4 also transforms!!!

Colonel Wolfe · Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:18 pm

Beatmeclever wrote:
Gryphon wrote:Well, if it transforms, these are clearly the thrusters on the "back", so that sort of explains them on this thing. It doesn't explain a simlar set on the SDF-4 at all though, unless they are holdovers of some sort.

Unless the SDF-4 also transforms!!!

bad bad bad....
Maybe we can get a Robotech-Transformers toy line... the SDF-4 turns into Reindhart... SDF-3 transforms into Rick Hunter...

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:22 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:[
Maybe we can get a Robotech-Transformers toy line... the SDF-4 turns into Reindhart... SDF-3 transforms into Rick Hunter...

If the parts correspond to the appropriate features, you don't want that....because Reinhart-mode SDF-4 would have a tiny head (guys, I really don't wanna believe that that puny little bridge tower hanging over the arse-end of the SDF-4 is REALLY the bridge... :roll:

).

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:13 pm

taalismn wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:[
Maybe we can get a Robotech-Transformers toy line... the SDF-4 turns into Reindhart... SDF-3 transforms into Rick Hunter...

If the parts correspond to the appropriate features, you don't want that....because Reinhart-mode SDF-4 would have a tiny head (guys, I really don't wanna believe that that puny little bridge tower hanging over the arse-end of the SDF-4 is REALLY the bridge... ).

Me either. :lol:

Arnie100 · Unread post by **Arnie100** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:21 pm

If it does split apart...could this be an homage to the Enterprise-D?

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:30 pm

Arnie100 wrote:If it does split apart...could this be an homage to the Enterprise-D?

It depends on the split.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:49 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:If it does split apart...could this be an homage to the Enterprise-D?

It depends on the split.

Star Trek wasn't the first to pull that stunt...Fireball XR.5 (a puppetmation show) had a title spacecraft whose nose detached as a mini-shuttle...

Arnie100 · Unread post by **Arnie100** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:18 am

taalismn wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Arnie100 wrote:If it does split apart...could this be an homage to the Enterprise-D?

It depends on the split.

Star Trek wasn't the first to pull that stunt...Fireball XR.5 (a puppetmation show) had a title spacecraft whose nose detached as a mini-shuttle...

As well as the Zero X from Thunderbirds Are go, IIRC.

Chris · Unread post by **Chris** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:18 pm

Okay, the labels (using the arrowheads as reference) on those pics are (from left to right):

Pic of ship forward 3/4 view

Main Gun
Bridge

Pic of ship rear 3/4 view

Launch Bay
Landing Bay (Open)
Anti-Spacecraft Guns
Colony Bay (open)
Bridge (Exposed)
Landing Strip (Bay Closed)
Battloid Hangers

Avatara · Unread post by **Avatara** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:16 pm

With enough damage to the mid section of the ship. Yes the Ark Angel CAN split apart.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:07 am

Avatara wrote:With enough damage to the mid section of the ship. Yes the Ark Angel CAN split apart.

We prefer NOT to have the ship in 'Catastrophic Component Separation Mode', please? We might want to re-use the ship later.

Arnie100 · Unread post by **Arnie100** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:11 am

taalismn wrote:
Avatara wrote:With enough damage to the mid section of the ship. Yes the Ark Angel CAN split apart.

We prefer NOT to have the ship in 'Catastrophic Component Separation Mode', please? We might want to re-use the ship later.

Besides, the crew might have something to say about that, as well.

Colonel Wolfe · Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:05 am

Arnie100 wrote: Besides, the crew might have something to say about that, as well.

The Crew will follow Orders, even if the Orders are "Die in hard vacuum". or else we got a Mutiny on out hands.. and then they can be Spaced.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:38 pm

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
Arnie100 wrote: Besides, the crew might have something to say about that, as well.
The Crew will follow Orders, even if the Orders are "Die in hard vacuum". or else we got a Mutiny on out hands.. and then they can be Spaced.

And if they prefer to follow officers who lead by example? :twisted:

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:01 pm

Gryphon wrote:Can anyone make out what it says at the base of the bridge? I am expecting something silly like SDF-05 here of course, but I might end up being pleasantly surprised for once.

"Giant Gorillas Take the Express Elevator."

Avatara · Unread post by **Avatara** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:35 pm

I was kind of referring to the ship separating in two by means of enemies shooting it .But I suppose having an insane command staff works to.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:39 pm

Avatara wrote:I was kind of referring to the ship separating in two by means of enemies shooting it .But I suppose having an insane command staff works to.

We figured as much, but why be normal and assume the obvious?

Avatara · Unread post by **Avatara** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:51 pm

Gryphon wrote:So its spaced if you do, and spaced if you don't? Alright, this outfit officially sucks, I really want out now, where's my walking papers?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification of the labels Chris.

So it had two massive bays with armored doors to the flanks, a dozen Alpha Quick Launch Bays, or maybe the Shadow Chronicles Legios Launch Tube Bays now, and a pair of landing strips on top for some unknowable use, since I can't make out elevators for lower craft. I guess they must be there, and we can't see them. Also, those thrusters appear to be far enough forward on the aft view so that the back canted targe...err, bridge, would be clear. If we assume identical thruster arrangements on the bottom, that gets us pretty good up and down range of movement there, though it still ignores retro thrusters, which nearly all of Robotech does anyhow, and most of the lateral movement too. May still be there, because I remember an ASC ship, a Tristar I think, looking bare on the flanks, yet kicking in heavy thrusters to avoid incoming fire, is this memory right? It was either Emerson's ship, or maybe Carpenter's returning Tokugawa perhaps.

Can anyone make out what it says at the base of the bridge? I am expecting something silly like SDF-05 here of course, but I might end up being pleasantly surprised for once.

"If you can read this your flying to close" OR " No the Arkangel-class colony fortress can not split apart" Or "Ignore the second set of thrusters behind the bridge."

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:08 pm

Avatara wrote:
Gryphon wrote:So its spaced if you do, and spaced if you don't? Alright, this outfit officially sucks, I really want out now, where's my walking papers?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification of the labels Chris.

So it had two massive bays with armored doors to the flanks, a dozen Alpha Quick Launch Bays, or maybe the Shadow Chronicles Legios Launch Tube Bays now, and a pair of landing strips on top for some unknowable use, since I can't make out elevators for lower craft. I guess they must be there, and we can't see them. Also, those thrusters appear to be far enough forward on the aft view so that the back canted targe...err, bridge, would be clear. If we assume identical thruster arrangements on the bottom, that gets us pretty good up and down range of movement there, though it still ignores retro thrusters, which nearly all of Robotech does anyhow, and most of the lateral movement too. May still be there, because I remember an ASC ship, a Tristar I think, looking bare on the flanks, yet kicking in heavy thrusters to avoid incoming fire, is this memory right? It was either Emerson's ship, or maybe Carpenter's returning Tokugawa perhaps.

Can anyone make out what it says at the base of the bridge? I am expecting something silly like SDF-05 here of course, but I might end up being pleasantly surprised for once.

"If you can read this your flying to close" OR " No the Arkangel-class colony fortress can not split apart" Or "Ignore the second set of thrusters behind the bridge."

"No Step."
"My other car is a Veritech"
"If you can read this, you're within Main Gun range."
"This SDF protected by 007 security systems"
"Shake well before using"
"Use only 'C' batteries."
"This side up"
"Made in Hong Kong"

Avatara · Unread post by **Avatara** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:52 pm

"we break for nobody!" "My Zentraedi-Human hybrid is an honour student"

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:05 pm

"Baby onboard"
"Geezer Admiral Parking Permit #234623"
"You'll have my Protoculture when you pry it out of my cold dead hands!"
"Warning! Human Culture Hazard! Highly Contagious!"
"Henri Gloval Driving Academy"

masslegion · Unread post by **masslegion** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:17 pm

A while back I ran into a pic that showed the ark angel transformed into a battloid. This pic was sort of a pre-production idea sketch. IF you look at the Shadow Chronicles art book you will also see the from half and back half are painted slightly different.

If anyone has a picture of the transformed ark-angel class I'd love to save a copy. Either pm me or post it here.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:15 pm

Pretty sure someone else already posted a link to the battloid pic somewhere here on the Robotech forums....

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:44 pm

IMHO the AA was never intended to transform, at least not into a humanoid form, which would raise all sorts of hellacious bells with the original Macross copyrights. On the other hand, having heavy engines with the drive flux washing backwards to blind or barbecue the bridge is a really BAD idea, depending on what you're using for propulsion.

Even so, I'd love to see that Battloid impression; I'm only aware of the 'Southern Cross/Tokugawa'-nosed SDF-2(though I don't recall ever seeing a retouched fan version of that in transformed mode either, just the cruiser mode).

glitterboy2098 · Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:16 pm

taalismn wrote:Even so, I'd love to see that Battloid impression; I'm only aware of the 'Southern Cross/Tokugawa'-nosed SDF-2(though I don't recall ever seeing a retouched fan version of that in transformed mode either, just the cruiser mode).

the original SDF-1 was never intended to tranform though, that was a 'feild-expedient repair' after the fold drive vanished and took most of the important parts of the power grid with it. it seems unlikely to me that the SDF-2, being a fully human built ship, wouldn't have been designed to not need to transform. though i too love the "tokugawa style" SDF-2. makes more sense than the "exact copy of the SDF-1" many assume..

the SDF-3 and 4 definately don't transform, and the Arkangel colony ship definately doesn't look like it can transform or break into some kind of multi-vector assualt mode.... at least, IMO.
i'd say those are low powered maneuvering thrusters. they're just huge because the ship is so massive.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:51 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:[
the SDF-3 and 4 definately don't transform, and the Arkangel colony ship definately doesn't look like it can transform or break into some kind of multi-vector assualt mode.... at least, IMO.
i'd say those are low powered maneuvering thrusters. they're just huge because the ship is so massive.

"Okay, let's light up the maneuvering thrusters and let's clear spacedock to see what this baby can REALLY do on shakedown with the throttles open!"
"Executing RC sequence 34-7-12, Exe-#SWWHAAASSH#
(classic moment of the entire bridge crew looking cartoon-flash-sootified except for their eyeballs)
"...okay...again, only this time go a little easier on the gas..."

glitterboy2098 · Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:23 pm

actually if you look at the side profile the exhust from the thrusters wouldn't hit the bridge...though if they were high powered ones the view might be a bit disconcerting...

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:27 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually if you look at the side profile the exhust from the thrusters wouldn't hit the bridge...though if they were high powered ones the view might be a bit disconcerting...

Hope the bridge windows have fast-react flash protection, then.

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:20 pm

taalismn wrote:IMHO the AA was never intended to transform, at least not into a humanoid form, which would raise all sorts of hellacious bells with the original Macross copyrights.

I doubt it would provoke quite as extreme a reaction as you're envisioning... but the powers-that-be at Harmony Gold are clearly unwilling to risk provoking a lawsuit from Macross's owners, to the point where they've made some odd moves (like removing the Macross footage from Sentinels) to ensure there's zero chance of any litigious retribution.

glitterboy2098 wrote:though i too love the "tokugawa style" SDF-2. makes more sense than the "exact copy of the SDF-1" many assume..

Assumption? It's not an assumption. That the SDF-2 was a second Macross-class ship comes (at least in part) from the OSM, supported by the old Comico comics (on which the old Robotech creative director collaborated) which also depicted the SDF-2 that way.

glitterboy2098 · Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:37 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:though i too love the "tokugawa style" SDF-2. makes more sense than the "exact copy of the SDF-1" many assume..

Assumption? It's not an assumption. That the SDF-2 was a second Macross-class ship comes (at least in part) from the OSM,

which being for SDF macross, and not Robotech, is only quasi-canon if it wasn't seen on screen. if HG wanted to go a different way with the robotech SDF-2, they could.

supported by the old Comico comics (on which the old Robotech creative director collaborated) which also depicted the SDF-2 that way.

which were only quasi-canon even when they were made, back in HG's "rubberstamp" phase of franchising...

Seto Kaiba · Unread post by **Seto Kaiba** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:29 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:which being for SDF macross, and not Robotech, is only quasi-canon if it wasn't seen on screen. if HG wanted to go a different way with the robotech SDF-2, they could.

True, if Harmony Gold wanted to handle the SDF-2 different in Robotech, they could... but have they? No. The one thing they've shown since they started trying to hash out an official canon for Robotech is that they're ready, willing, and eager to follow the OSM's line on pretty much anything that doesn't directly contradict Robotech's story. (Much to the irritation of some Robotech fans who wanted to see the distance between RT and the originals get bigger, not smaller.)

It seems fairly obvious that, given the concept art, the Ark Angel was originally conceived as a Macross-like warship capable of transformation... an idea Harmony Gold probably backed away from when the Japanese courts repeatedly and bluntly shot down Tatsunoko's attempts to claim partial ownership of the Macross IP.

glitterboy2098 wrote:which were only quasi-canon even when they were made, back in HG's "rubberstamp" phase of franchising...

Well, that's not entirely accurate either... the Robotech series was only ever intended to be a cheap and shallow toy commercial targeted to preteens at Revell's behest. The notion of a defined, official canon didn't come along until Macek's third major failure (Robotech 3000) got him replaced as creative director and prompted the powers-that-be to reboot the universe and reinvent Robotech as a credible SF/mecha anime series.

ESalter · Unread post by **ESalter** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:16 pm

taalismn wrote:IMHO the AA was never intended to transform, at least not into a humanoid form, which would raise all sorts of hellacious bells with the original Macross copyrights.

How do you mean?

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:35 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Assumption? It's not an assumption. That the SDF-2 was a second Macross-class ship comes (at least in part) from the OSM, supported by the old Comico comics (on which the old Robotech creative director collaborated) which also depicted the SDF-2 that way.

Why on earth would they build the SDF-2 In the lake? that would make work so much more deadly for the workers. just saying. did like the pictures though.