What would happen if the orb was recovered?

[Zer0 Kay]

So, I've been running a CS vs Tolkeen campaign and have a topic I'm interested in hearing opinions on.

Early in the campaign, I ran the Solomon adventure. Now, I know it was designed as a side quest, but my players really liked the idea. So, I've started to run with it. After much difficulty, I allowed the characters to recover the orb and help hold off the CS. Now, they are starting to talk about the possibility of fulfilling the prophecy.
They have come up with a plan to hire a high level mage or find an item that will allow them to teleport to Prosek and use the orb.
Now, they plan to set up a terrorist attack on the CS. Hopefully, this will force Prosek to hold a press conference to address his nation.

Now, before you start in, I know that this wouldn't work according to the book. If you want my opinion on that, check my earlier post. I'm not following the books on this one.

Bottom line is, I have a character fully willing to sacrifice himself for even a chance at this insanity. I'm inclined to give him a fair shot. However, this leaves me with on big question. What would really become of the CS over the next 10 years? How would it impact the rest of North America?

I agree with the books that Prosek would be unable to do anything major anytime in the immediate future. If he doesn't steer the set course, his people will suspect something wrong, but he could begin to make small changes one-by-one.
Using this line of reasoning, the CS could become a very different entity in a few decades. Education could become common and free speach accepted. D-Bees could be seen walking the streets of chi-town, and eventually even join the millitary. Indeed, the CS could very well rebuild the American empire in it's entirety.

So, what do you think? What effects do you think this would have on Rifts? Would Prosek be able to change things, or would he simply be killed and replaced? Would the CS accept these slow changes peacefully, or would there be civil war? Tell me what you think.

Just one question. What do you think the object is that is being presented to Prosek in the back of the RUE?

[Zer0 Kay]

That is cool stuff. I like that picture. I hadn't seen that before. Are you sure it's the orb??? If so, that's cool. However, I would still appreciate your thoughts on it.

It is never said what the object is but I was thinking that it is the orb and the woman is the key.

I think the wisdom given to Prosek would show him that it must be done through his son or grandson so he would attempt to get his son to touch the orb (I don't recall if that can be done). If not he would stear the CS around altercations with the "good" forces and engage the "evil" forces. Maybe hiring mercs and recording thier actions. If his son is really interested in bringing back human supremisist magi then use the video to show how they are fighting for humanity and slowly add d-bees into the mix around the same time that reading is returned. Then using history lessons he could turn the will of the masses. The problem is that the high ranking would have to be phased out. Those who will not bend will have to be replaced for manufactured reasons. Many will have to be treated as Proseks wife has been. While she miraculously regains her sanity, hurrah. Oh and what is this she says? A bunch of Cyber Knights saved her from the evil wizards of the Brass City?! Everyone will somehow have to be made to understand that most races are much like humans with both good and bad people and the race as a whole can't be judged on the actions of individuals. Blah, blah, blah, blah... It is likely going to take more time than Prosek has life and if his son can't be turned that will make it that much more difficult. It will take as long as it took colonial U.S. up through expansionist U.S. to learn that the only good Indian is not a dead Indian. Just think it has been more than 200 years since the U.S. was founded and we still have racial issues. American Natives still having reservations and I hope only a few Blacks demanding that all white people must make reperations to them. Truely amazing considering the White population has done worse to the Native Americans and Japanese Americans. Interesting that it is the whites that are blamed and not the rival African Tribes that sold them into slavery. Interesting that white people were also enslaved. Don't get me wrong, slavery is abhorent but it is worse to put the families of some of the very people that are fighting for your country, it is worse to attempt genocide. The U.S. has done all three, yet who is the only group that there is still a big issue with? So if it has taken the U.S. 200 years to get where we are and that is with other human beings it is going to take longer because the oppressed aren't even the same species... there is no easily recognizable common ground. For humans captivity is one of the worst things for some other alien species it is the norm. "Yeah I may be a slave, but at least I get three squares, unlike my cousins."

[mobuttu]

Proseck is killed by his son and other generals (as Brutus did with Cesar in the Senate), and everything goes on as usual.

[dark brandon]

what does the orb do, I'm not sure what that is so I can't really give any insight.

[Jorel]

what does the orb do, I'm not sure what that is so I can't really give any insight.

It makes him a nice guy.

[Mallak's Place]

I'd get the Orb in to Josephs hands not Karls, currently Joseph is a little more easy to get at, and more cunning then his father. Also his position would allow him to tone down the Coalitions message a little at a time.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

So, I've been running a CS vs Tolkeen campaign and have a topic I'm interested in hearing opinions on.

Early in the campaign, I ran the Solomon adventure. Now, I know it was designed as a side quest, but my players really liked the idea. So, I've started to run with it. After much difficulty, I allowed the characters to recover the orb and help hold off the CS. Now, they are starting to talk about the possibility of fulfilling the prophecy.
They have come up with a plan to hire a high level mage or find an item that will allow them to teleport to Prosek and use the orb.
Now, they plan to set up a terrorist attack on the CS. Hopefully, this will force Prosek to hold a press conference to address his nation.

Now, before you start in, I know that this wouldn't work according to the book. If you want my opinion on that, check my earlier post. I'm not following the books on this one.

Bottom line is, I have a character fully willing to sacrifice himself for even a chance at this insanity. I'm inclined to give him a fair shot. However, this leaves me with on big question. What would really become of the CS over the next 10 years? How would it impact the rest of North America?

I agree with the books that Prosek would be unable to do anything major anytime in the immediate future. If he doesn't steer the set course, his people will suspect something wrong, but he could begin to make small changes one-by-one.
Using this line of reasoning, the CS could become a very different entity in a few decades. Education could become common and free speach accepted. D-Bees could be seen walking the streets of chi-town, and eventually even join the millitary. Indeed, the CS could very well rebuild the American empire in it's entirety.

So, what do you think? What effects do you think this would have on Rifts? Would Prosek be able to change things, or would he simply be killed and replaced? Would the CS accept these slow changes peacefully, or would there be civil war? Tell me what you think.

Just one question. What do you think the object is that is being presented to Prosek in the back of the RUE?

a giant gum drop maybe?

[taalismn]

what does the orb do, I'm not sure what that is so I can't really give any insight.

Sorry, guess I should have included that with the post huh?
Anyway, the orb grants divine wisdom to one special person every 1000 years. Something like that. If your wondering it's in the first CS vs Tolkeen book.

What if the Divine Wisdom is 'Kill Them All, Let Their Gods Sort It Out'?

[Zer0 Kay]

I'd get the Orb in to Josephs hands not Karls, currently Joseph is a little more easy to get at, and more cunning then his father. Also his position would allow him to tone down the Coalitions message a little at a time.

Very true I think that Karl is more a respected figure head now.

[Zer0 Kay]

So, I've been running a CS vs Tolkeen campaign and have a topic I'm interested in hearing opinions on.

Early in the campaign, I ran the Solomon adventure. Now, I know it was designed as a side quest, but my players really liked the idea. So, I've started to run with it. After much difficulty, I allowed the characters to recover the orb and help hold off the CS. Now, they are starting to talk about the possibility of fulfilling the prophecy.
They have come up with a plan to hire a high level mage or find an item that will allow them to teleport to Prosek and use the orb.
Now, they plan to set up a terrorist attack on the CS. Hopefully, this will force Prosek to hold a press conference to address his nation.

Now, before you start in, I know that this wouldn't work according to the book. If you want my opinion on that, check my earlier post. I'm not following the books on this one.

Bottom line is, I have a character fully willing to sacrifice himself for even a chance at this insanity. I'm inclined to give him a fair shot. However, this leaves me with on big question. What would really become of the CS over the next 10 years? How would it impact the rest of North America?

I agree with the books that Prosek would be unable to do anything major anytime in the immediate future. If he doesn't steer the set course, his people will suspect something wrong, but he could begin to make small changes one-by-one.
Using this line of reasoning, the CS could become a very different entity in a few decades. Education could become common and free speach accepted. D-Bees could be seen walking the streets of chi-town, and eventually even join the millitary. Indeed, the CS could very well rebuild the American empire in it's entirety.

So, what do you think? What effects do you think this would have on Rifts? Would Prosek be able to change things, or would he simply be killed and replaced? Would the CS accept these slow changes peacefully, or would there be civil war? Tell me what you think.

Just one question. What do you think the object is that is being presented to Prosek in the back of the RUE?

a giant gum drop maybe?

Nice to hear from you MV

[Zer0 Kay]

what does the orb do, I'm not sure what that is so I can't really give any insight.

Sorry, guess I should have included that with the post huh?
Anyway, the orb grants divine wisdom to one special person every 1000 years. Something like that. If your wondering it's in the first CS vs Tolkeen book.

What if the Divine Wisdom is 'Kill Them All, Let Their Gods Sort It Out'?

How is that wise? We are talking about Solomon's wisdom given to him by the Deity that Palladium refuses to publish, except as a non-interfering entity making any religious connection to him more like Deism. Though that God is rathful it is only when an entire culture can not be redeemed (Sodam, Gamora and the surrounding villages weren't the only cultures destoyed by him and some were done at the hands of his followers by his command... then again more recently we know of so many that were done at the hands of his followers without his command because man thought they knew what was best for his plans.)

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm starting to think that Karl would try to change his family first. I read that Joseph Prosek is already interested in the Vanguard. It wouldn't be hard for him and Karl to set up a secret millitary program, and go from there.

Maybe it already happened and Joseph's view is due to his father having already received the Orb and an understanding that the Cyber Knights did after all save his mother.

Then again the Orb doesn't change alignment it only gives wisdom. So they'd know that the best way for humanity to survive in a growing Megaverse is to build the number of powerful allies that they have.

[Zer0 Kay]

The orb gives "divine wisdom"? Does that necessarily cause a change in alignment?

Do you really want to give that much wisdom to successful, influential evil people? Do you really think they'll use it for "good"?

Edit- Zer0 beat me to it.

From a meta-game point of view, yes, I would rather hit Joseph with it than Karl. But the PCs may not think that way, and it is their game.

Either way though they are giving the wisdom to an evil force. A wise evil is better than a chaotic unresonable one though. Then again I'd say that the Mongol version of wisdom was to slaughter entire villages (kill em all and let their associated deities sort them out, as stated by someone else previously) to ensure that the wives of the slaughtered men wouldn't teach their children to rise up agains their rulers. But again it is Christi... I mean devine wisdom.

[Zer0 Kay]

Once again, I'm pretty sure they mean a humane wisdom. In the books, it's presented like it will make him a good guy. This is also the way I'm considering running it. Call me an optimist in the end, but I kinda like the idea of allowing my players to pave the way for a new american empire.

I like the idea too. I allowed one of my players who has a character that has a LONG life span to eventually. Well I'll put it this way one of my previous NPCs was an ancient dragon she became an unknown dragon god. One of his NPC was a Goqua and he made up Arch Goquas which this one became. His character suffered many years from that Goqua. In my Campaign I had Merlin d’Monchilder of Caledon son of Wydt Ymrys Ambrosius give Arthur their knighted names which were all preminitions on what would come. Before I had to move I revealed how these names would come true in story rather than game play. His female character, Kai Dioner, that he started playing back in the late 80's early 90's was going to become Empress of the Black Throne. In later years Kai Dioner would meet a young dragon and somehow earned the dedication of a young Goqua. She rose to power with them at her side and fully knowing who they were and that she knew the future them in her past. After she brought the world on which the Black Throne sat to peace she knew that nothing, NOTHING could endanger this and ordered her devout followers to travel through space and time and do all that had to be done to make shure that she would be where she was now. What it came down to is that she ordered a hatchling in a round about way to become a Dragon God and a Goqua that was/is her friend to do unspeakable things to her in her past. If things were not done just as they were, she would not be the person that she became. Her wisdom... the torture that was her life was necessary to bring Earth to peace. Prosek's ego wasn't completely wrong... it would be from Chi-Town that the entire world would be ruled from his Black Throne, just 100s of years after his death.

[mobuttu]

Proseck is killed by his son and other generals (as Brutus did with Cesar in the Senate), and everything goes on as usual.

Not quite "as usual" as one might think. The Vanguard might recieve a boost(as Joey is already working with them secretly), so over the long-term magic MIGHT be more acceptable to the population. Desmond Bradford would be hunted like a fox, which could have some serious repercussions for Lone Star(both the complex and the "state"/quadrant). The CS would look different after a few years, even with Joey in charge.

I can agree with you. But at the end of the day, CS would still be, more or less, the same. Lone Star would be ruled but another person, but some of the experiments would still be running (Dog Boys, Anti-Xiticix, etc.). Maybe if the Vanguard alliances got stronger the Anti-Magic Monster appeared in the Machination of Doom sourcebook could be stopped. In the same way, maybe magic would be seen with better eyes, but CS would still chase magicians and D-bees, probably to register them and prosecute those who oppose the CS control policy.

[Zer0 Kay]

What book is this in, btw?

I did a quick scan through a few books and couldn't find it.

First SoT book.

[Zer0 Kay]

Do consider that the "Wisdom of Solomon" could just as easily refer to Solomon's command of summoning and binding demons as much as the ability to rule wisely.

Read the description of the Orb. That isn't how it works.

It would be funny if the orb is actually the item that turned Xy into Thoth.

[dark brandon]

"the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I'm not sure how this magic item works. I don't have the first 3 sot books, so I can't look it up. So, I will theorize

1) If it makes him stupid principled, then he'll try overnight to change everything right. He'll get locked up, and via mind probe or something would show he was a victim of this magic item. You'd then see the CS become much worse over-night when it's told his very being was changed. People would clamor for action.

2) If it makes him just "wise", then it may make him (Or at least the CS) even more dangerous. Wisdom isn't always a thing used for good. Having the wisdom to know when to attack, how to push, what really makes people tick...ect..

3) If it makes him smart good, he'd continue the current course, knowing that any abrupt change could be dangerous and counter-productive. You would probably see things slowly start to change. Perhaps institution of magic only in the form of TW (where the power is in an object, not a person), the relaxation of rules for human looking dbees...It would be small changes that would eventually echo through the CS.

[Danger]

The orb?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

all it says

it is said to bring "wisdom clarity of mind and peace of heart"

but it's a good read about the orb , key and the plot of it

[The Beast]

I'm pretty sure if someone got their hands on the orb Brock Sampson would track them down and kill them.

[taalismn]

all it says

it is said to bring "wisdom clarity of mind and peace of heart"

but it's a good read about the orb , key and the plot of it

Might be relative wisdom; "What's good for the people of Solomon isn't necessary good for the people NOT of Solomon". And 'Peace of Mind'? Well..."I sleep better better at night knowing our armies are bombing the enemies of Humanity to the hell they came from!"

Then again, me? I don't put my trust in one-shot magical devices to chance the minds of men...

You COULD have, in cinematic fashion, evil becomes good, and a brighter day looms ahead for CS/D-Bee relations, as whoever of the Proseks gets a dose of compassion and empathy, and the wisdom not to blow it all by attempting to change policies too radically and thus call attention to himself...in which case the players should think they failed utterly, not being in a position to see, over the course of several years or decades, the CS become kinder, gentler, less antagonistic towards its neighbors(except the vampires)...An evil(if idealistic) GM might even have the Prosek in question have the PCs who delivered the Orb to him hotly pursued and even killed off just to preserve his secret(he'll chew his guts out in private over the 'necessary sacrifices on the way to a better world').

A TRULY evil GM makes the Orb a fake(end the adventure with POV cuts to a dozen or more secret locations, all supposedly holding the 'true' Orb of Solomon), or simply makes Prosek WORSE, and more smugly self-confident in his own beliefs.