The Coalition and 40ks Imperium

[Bood Samel]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

[Kalidor]

The Coalition States is not the villains, they are saviors. Anyone who thinks differently is either a D-Bee or a traitor to mankind!

HAIL PROSEK!

*salutes*

[popscythe]

Everything's always ww2.

[rat_bastard]

The Coalition are knowledge-phobic Nazis, the Imperium are knowledge phobic space Nazis. Both are pretty much equally reprehensible.

[Rallan]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

[taalismn]

Plus the CS lacks the entire religious zealotry overtones of WH40K....The Cult of Prosek may be strong here on the boards, but it's a Cub Scout troop compared to the rampaging messianic sluaghter-machine of the Cult of the Emperor of Man. True, the Empire has chicks in leather armor in the Sisters of Battle, but trust me, you'd rather cuddle with that girl in greys from NETSEC...

[Zer0 Kay]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

The Imperium isn't the good guys the closest to good guys in 40K are the Tau. The Imperium isn't even homoginized as you have battles between Marines and Imperial Army or the Sisters vs whoever because they heard that someone was tainted. Then the story turns back and says that the techs on mars worship something other than the emperor and they haven't been purified. The whole thing doesn't make sense in 40K and you may as well stop trying to make it make sense as the authors always change and with them the story. Don't forget about the Starchild and the Sensei that worship him.

According to 40K canon when the Emperor is reborn he will defeat the chaos Gods and bring the universe to peace. Well there are two groups within the Empire. You have those that are in charge and tend to the Emperor's husk on the golden throne and are trying to destroy the Sensei as they are beleived to be worshippers of some Chaos god named the Starchild. Then you have the Illuminati who know that the Starchild is the Emperor's disembodied spirit still connected to his husk and that the Sensei are the Emperor's bilogical children. They beleive that they must sacrifice all the Sensei at the same moment the Emperor's body is destoyed to give the Starchild enough power to be reborn.

Oh, they are not portrayed as the heroes or the good guys, they are portrayed as mankinds only hope. Just as most of the other races are their kinds only hope, and yet others are just out to kill everything. The only one that is actually everyones hope are the Tau as they are working towards a peaceful universe and don't care who lives in it.

[Bood Samel]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

[9voltkilowatt]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

[rat_bastard]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

I kinda felt that the Tyranids had the moral high ground, followed by the Orcs of course.

[Rallan]

The Imperium isn't the good guys the closest to good guys in 40K are the Tau. The Imperium isn't even homoginized as you have battles between Marines and Imperial Army or the Sisters vs whoever because they heard that someone was tainted. Then the story turns back and says that the techs on mars worship something other than the emperor and they haven't been purified. The whole thing doesn't make sense in 40K and you may as well stop trying to make it make sense as the authors always change and with them the story. Don't forget about the Starchild and the Sensei that worship him.

You missed the wildcard in the Imperium deck. While everyone else argues about whether the Emperor needs to be killed so he can ascend to godhood or whether he's already a god and killing him will end his struggle against the forces of Chaos, the Adeptus Mechanicus are already sitting on top of a sleeping god of their own. A genuine, bona fide, certified 100% Chaos-free god. And given how much foreshadowing has been dropped into the setting, it's only a matter of time before they decide to wake that thing up.

[Rallan]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

Well except that they lie shamelessly to their own followers and if they ever win they'll eventually annihilate all life in the galaxy in an orgy of self destruction.

If you want honesty, then you should look no further than Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons. They make no attempt to pretend that they have any goals other than fight everything, assimilate everything, and kill everything respectively.

[Rallan]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

Yeah but that's kinda getting beyond a conversation about what Rifts is like and into a conversation about what your campaign is like. Because let's face it, as its written Rifts has always been a game that took a Mad Max / Judge Dredd aesthetic and then saddled it with a silver age superhero morality and didn't worry too much about whether everything fits together properly.

[Zer0 Kay]

The Imperium isn't the good guys the closest to good guys in 40K are the Tau. The Imperium isn't even homoginized as you have battles between Marines and Imperial Army or the Sisters vs whoever because they heard that someone was tainted. Then the story turns back and says that the techs on mars worship something other than the emperor and they haven't been purified. The whole thing doesn't make sense in 40K and you may as well stop trying to make it make sense as the authors always change and with them the story. Don't forget about the Starchild and the Sensei that worship him.

You missed the wildcard in the Imperium deck. While everyone else argues about whether the Emperor needs to be killed so he can ascend to godhood or whether he's already a god and killing him will end his struggle against the forces of Chaos, the Adeptus Mechanicus are already sitting on top of a sleeping god of their own. A genuine, bona fide, certified 100% Chaos-free god. And given how much foreshadowing has been dropped into the setting, it's only a matter of time before they decide to wake that thing up.

Except the foreshadowing leads to Mars being a Necron Cryptworld and that god being one of the Ctan

[Bood Samel]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

Yeah but that's kinda getting beyond a conversation about what Rifts is like and into a conversation about what your campaign is like. Because let's face it, as its written Rifts has always been a game that took a Mad Max / Judge Dredd aesthetic and then saddled it with a silver age superhero morality and didn't worry too much about whether everything fits together properly.

You're about the inconsistency of the silver age superhero morality being juxtaposed onto into a dystopic setting. I think the answer to that is fan material that just focuses on pure dystopia. I'm very slowly working on that. At some point I plan on collecting my rifts art and text and making a fan fic pdf. It'll be a collection of fiction, essays and gaming material. Palladium, while very good at a lot of things is just not consistently good with dark material. Usually as well they tend to saddle really good dark setting concepts with what I myself find to be cheesy heroics. Like disaster movie or something.

I think games workshop does dark themes better then white wolf in that white wolf tries too hard by tapping too much real life occult, etc. material. RPGs should be fun, not a crash course in the esoteric.

Look at say a movie like Snatch. I think that movie is a good example of how to structure a RPG adventure. Various competing agendas of an assortment of colorful ne'er do wells and scum bags that are all loosely interrelated, yet a focused goal at the end. Kids are hardly playing RPGs anymore. You'd be hard pressed to find somebody under 25 thats into gaming. What 30 something person wants to play some goodie goodie Spider-Man save the old lady kind of character? I'd rather take a basic story theme and structure like Snatch, or any other fun, slick crime noir story and throw cyborgs and monsters into it.

Look at the d&d site right now and they got a video series of the writers for Robot Chicken playing d&d. That says a lot about who's gaming these days. Robot Chicken is not a kids show.

[Zer0 Kay]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

Yeah but that's kinda getting beyond a conversation about what Rifts is like and into a conversation about what your campaign is like. Because let's face it, as its written Rifts has always been a game that took a Mad Max / Judge Dredd aesthetic and then saddled it with a silver age superhero morality and didn't worry too much about whether everything fits together properly.

You're about the inconsistency of the silver age superhero morality being juxtaposed onto into a dystopic setting. I think the answer to that is fan material that just focuses on pure dystopia. I'm very slowly working on that. At some point I plan on collecting my rifts art and text and making a fan fic pdf. It'll be a collection of fiction, essays and gaming material. Palladium, while very good at a lot of things is just not consistently good with dark material. Usually as well they tend to saddle really good dark setting concepts with what I myself find to be cheesy heroics. Like disaster movie or something.

I think games workshop does dark themes better then white wolf in that white wolf tries too hard by tapping too much real life occult, etc. material. RPGs should be fun, not a crash course in the esoteric.

Look at say a movie like Snatch. I think that movie is a good example of how to structure a RPG adventure. Various competing agendas of an assortment of colorful ne'er do wells and scum bags that are all loosely interrelated, yet a focused goal at the end. Kids are hardly playing RPGs anymore. You'd be hard pressed to find somebody under 25 thats into gaming. What 30 something person wants to play some goodie goodie Spider-Man save the old lady kind of character? I'd rather take a basic story theme and structure like Snatch, or any other fun, slick crime noir story and throw cyborgs and monsters into it.

Look at the d&d site right now and they got a video series of the writers for Robot Chicken playing d&d. That says a lot about who's gaming these days. Robot Chicken is not a kids show.

The only reason that GW does better dark stuff is because people don't care about their heroes they worked on and gave the breath of life too as the heroes in GW are premade and all your doing is paying for them. That's right the characters in GW are prostitutes you buy and use while most RPG characters are your alter ego or a friend you made.

[Khanibal]

Well except that they lie shamelessly to their own followers and if they ever win they'll eventually annihilate all life in the galaxy in an orgy of self destruction.

Galaxy could use some cleaning up anyway.

[Zer0 Kay]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

Well except that they lie shamelessly to their own followers and if they ever win they'll eventually annihilate all life in the galaxy in an orgy of self destruction.

If you want honesty, then you should look no further than Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons. They make no attempt to pretend that they have any goals other than fight everything, assimilate everything, and kill everything respectively.

Tau are the most honest. To be either dishonest or honest you'd have to have a singular mind so the Tyranid don't count. The Orks lie to their underlings all the time, by underling I mean the subspecies Gretchin and the Necron... The C'tan lied to the race that is now the Necrons so that doesn't look like honesty either. Chaos wouldn't go on in self destruction, ever consider what would happen to Slaanesh if the Eldar race died out? S/he is the embodiment of their debocherie (sp?) and if there is no more... As I recall her/his creation was the event that created the eye of terror and allowed chaos to flood into the Universe. So the Eldar either gather together all their lost brothers and conquor her or they all die and she goes with them, and either way maybe the eye closes restricting power available to chaos. But they most certainly do lie.

[Rallan]

The Imperium isn't the good guys the closest to good guys in 40K are the Tau. The Imperium isn't even homoginized as you have battles between Marines and Imperial Army or the Sisters vs whoever because they heard that someone was tainted. Then the story turns back and says that the techs on mars worship something other than the emperor and they haven't been purified. The whole thing doesn't make sense in 40K and you may as well stop trying to make it make sense as the authors always change and with them the story. Don't forget about the Starchild and the Sensei that worship him.

You missed the wildcard in the Imperium deck. While everyone else argues about whether the Emperor needs to be killed so he can ascend to godhood or whether he's already a god and killing him will end his struggle against the forces of Chaos, the Adeptus Mechanicus are already sitting on top of a sleeping god of their own. A genuine, bona fide, certified 100% Chaos-free god. And given how much foreshadowing has been dropped into the setting, it's only a matter of time before they decide to wake that thing up.

Except the foreshadowing leads to Mars being a Necron Cryptworld and that god being one of the Ctan

Hey I said certified 100% Chaos-Free. You don't get critters who are much more devoid of Chaos taint than the Star Gods

[Rallan]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

Well except that they lie shamelessly to their own followers and if they ever win they'll eventually annihilate all life in the galaxy in an orgy of self destruction.

If you want honesty, then you should look no further than Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons. They make no attempt to pretend that they have any goals other than fight everything, assimilate everything, and kill everything respectively.

Tau are the most honest. To be either dishonest or honest you'd have to have a singular mind so the Tyranid don't count. The Orks lie to their underlings all the time, by underling I mean the subspecies Gretchin and the Necron... The C'tan lied to the race that is now the Necrons so that doesn't look like honesty either. Chaos wouldn't go on in self destruction, ever consider what would happen to Slaanesh if the Eldar race died out? S/he is the embodiment of their debocherie (sp?) and if there is no more... As I recall her/his creation was the event that created the eye of terror and allowed chaos to flood into the Universe. So the Eldar either gather together all their lost brothers and conquor her or they all die and she goes with them, and either way maybe the eye closes restricting power available to chaos. But they most certainly do lie.

How are the Tau honest? Not even the Tau know where the Ethereal Caste comes from, what their overall objective is, or what "the Greater Good" is. Its one huge cult of unquestioning obedience to a pack of gurus who've never deigned to actually tell anyone what the straight dope is, and who may very well be powerful psykers (or alien impersonators) manipulating the entire Tau Empire for their own personal gain.

As for orks and necrons though, they're exactly what they say on the box. Orks are a genetically engineered self-replicating weapon that's preprogrammed to fight and conquer until its owner says stop (and since the Old Ones are no more, that basically means the orks will unthinkingly keep on fighting and conquering until the heat death of the universe). They're too moronic, instinct-driven, and enthusiastic to pretend otherwise. And Necrons? Well the C'tan are tricksy bastards, but there's only four of them and they don't get out much. Meanwhile the Necrons themselves have been pretty open about what they do for a few million years now: they live to harvest life for their masters, and everyone is fair game.

With Chaos though, you never know what's going on. Did they overrun that world as the start of a conquest through expansion? Was it a feint to make it look like Chaos is going to attack? Did they take it just to spite another Chaos faction who wanted it? Was it a feint to set another Chaos faction up for betrayal? Did it just happen because the imperial governor was secretly importing forbidden artifacts and one person too many got corrupted? You'll probably never know, even if you were the badass chaos marine general who led the invasion. It's easy to understand hte long term objectives of the Chaos God (each one wants to spread its own unique brand of misery and mayhem across the galaxy so that it can feed on the psychic energies of everyone who's feeling its influence), but in the short term they're so big on changing plans and cancelling clans and inventing new plans and betraying plans that it's impossible to work out what their objective for next tuesday is.

[Khanibal]

Okay, thread is now derailed enough to be removed from Rifts forum.

[popscythe]

Yeah I was going :0 the whole time I read it.

[taalismn]

The Tau and Triax...
"Hey, we got the same design esthetic going on here! Maybe we can cut a deal?"
"You're communists."

[Bood Samel]

i think on the CS point of view would be freaking awesome. not reprehensible

A book on CS adventures need not be based on any faux-gestapo antics, but rather just good military drama. Think of movies like saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk down (SAMAS down?), Tears of the Sun, and so on. Or even the first Predator. The Predator scenario would work great with a squad of basic CS troops being hunted down by a Lanotaur Hunter, who pretty much are Predators anyway. I think a CS adventure book would be great, but I'm sure it would end up getting written with a dose of heavy handed moralizing and efforts to have the players defect from the CS.

[Zer0 Kay]

Personally I always saw the Powers of Chaos as the "good guys' of 40k. When it came right down to it they were the only one's that where upfront about being vicious bloodthirsty monsters.

ALL HAIL MORTARION! Lord of the legions of the Death Guard, fist of our father, he who spreads life through death!

Well except that they lie shamelessly to their own followers and if they ever win they'll eventually annihilate all life in the galaxy in an orgy of self destruction.

If you want honesty, then you should look no further than Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons. They make no attempt to pretend that they have any goals other than fight everything, assimilate everything, and kill everything respectively.

Tau are the most honest. To be either dishonest or honest you'd have to have a singular mind so the Tyranid don't count. The Orks lie to their underlings all the time, by underling I mean the subspecies Gretchin and the Necron... The C'tan lied to the race that is now the Necrons so that doesn't look like honesty either. Chaos wouldn't go on in self destruction, ever consider what would happen to Slaanesh if the Eldar race died out? S/he is the embodiment of their debocherie (sp?) and if there is no more... As I recall her/his creation was the event that created the eye of terror and allowed chaos to flood into the Universe. So the Eldar either gather together all their lost brothers and conquor her or they all die and she goes with them, and either way maybe the eye closes restricting power available to chaos. But they most certainly do lie.

How are the Tau honest? Not even the Tau know where the Ethereal Caste comes from, what their overall objective is, or what "the Greater Good" is. Its one huge cult of unquestioning obedience to a pack of gurus who've never deigned to actually tell anyone what the straight dope is, and who may very well be powerful psykers (or alien impersonators) manipulating the entire Tau Empire for their own personal gain.

As for orks and necrons though, they're exactly what they say on the box. Orks are a genetically engineered self-replicating weapon that's preprogrammed to fight and conquer until its owner says stop (and since the Old Ones are no more, that basically means the orks will unthinkingly keep on fighting and conquering until the heat death of the universe). They're too moronic, instinct-driven, and enthusiastic to pretend otherwise. And Necrons? Well the C'tan are tricksy bastards, but there's only four of them and they don't get out much. Meanwhile the Necrons themselves have been pretty open about what they do for a few million years now: they live to harvest life for their masters, and everyone is fair game.

With Chaos though, you never know what's going on. Did they overrun that world as the start of a conquest through expansion? Was it a feint to make it look like Chaos is going to attack? Did they take it just to spite another Chaos faction who wanted it? Was it a feint to set another Chaos faction up for betrayal? Did it just happen because the imperial governor was secretly importing forbidden artifacts and one person too many got corrupted? You'll probably never know, even if you were the badass chaos marine general who led the invasion. It's easy to understand hte long term objectives of the Chaos God (each one wants to spread its own unique brand of misery and mayhem across the galaxy so that it can feed on the psychic energies of everyone who's feeling its influence), but in the short term they're so big on changing plans and cancelling clans and inventing new plans and betraying plans that it's impossible to work out what their objective for next tuesday is.

Um yeah but the unquestioning cult doesn't sacrifice it's people to their Emperor and the defacto rulers who run the empire while he is incacitated all declaring it is the Emperor's will, liars:nh:

They're not the old ones they are called Slann use the whole name and they didn't just create the Orks, they made Eldar and Humans too. And just because the Orks are honest to their creation doesn't make them personally honest.

Chaos are funny

[Zer0 Kay]

The Tau and Triax...
"Hey, we got the same design esthetic going on here! Maybe we can cut a deal?"
"You're communists."

Hey so are we..

How is the graceful lines of the Tau (except for the suits) the same design esthetic?

[Zer0 Kay]

i think on the CS point of view would be freaking awesome. not reprehensible

A book on CS adventures need not be based on any faux-gestapo antics, but rather just good military drama. Think of movies like saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk down (SAMAS down?), Tears of the Sun, and so on. Or even the first Predator. The Predator scenario would work great with a squad of basic CS troops being hunted down by a Lanotaur Hunter, who pretty much are Predators anyway. I think a CS adventure book would be great, but I'm sure it would end up getting written with a dose of heavy handed moralizing and efforts to have the players defect from the CS.

faux-gestapo antics:D
Ranking CS Officer a Colonel puts a antique monicle to his eye
"SHULTZ!!!"
in comes a Bulldog Dogboy "I saw nothing, I heard nothing..."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Given Humans reactions to each other in the past , then having 200 yrs of disasters and non-humans trying to kill humans or enslave them , somehow the Coalition States and Free quebec are the only ones who shows humans as they truly are , the other humans kingdoms are laughable at best

[Rallan]

i think on the CS point of view would be freaking awesome. not reprehensible

A book on CS adventures need not be based on any faux-gestapo antics, but rather just good military drama. Think of movies like saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk down (SAMAS down?), Tears of the Sun, and so on. Or even the first Predator. The Predator scenario would work great with a squad of basic CS troops being hunted down by a Lanotaur Hunter, who pretty much are Predators anyway. I think a CS adventure book would be great, but I'm sure it would end up getting written with a dose of heavy handed moralizing and efforts to have the players defect from the CS.

Or heavy handed apologetics and attempts to make the CS seem like sweetness and light to appease the fanboys. I vaguely recall that being one of the reasons so many people (including Bill Coffin) didn't like the Siege on Tolkeen books

[Rallan]

The Tau and Triax...
"Hey, we got the same design esthetic going on here! Maybe we can cut a deal?"
"You're communists."

Hey so are we..

How is the graceful lines of the Tau (except for the suits) the same design esthetic?

Well there's the sleek anime-ish look, the faceless helmets, the fact that both were designed to look like (and to be) shining beacons of modern high-tech design in settings where everything else was either heavy and thuggish, adorned with skulls, or baroque.

[taalismn]

The 'cyclops' look is in with both the NGR and the Tau for another....

[Zer0 Kay]

The 'cyclops' look is in with both the NGR and the Tau for another....

You know that now most of their suits have three optics right?

[Zer0 Kay]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

But the Empire is a metaphorical representation of Vietnam Era America. So if the Coalition is modeled after them then what does that say about America in general?

Huh?!? Where do you get that the Empire is a metaphore for Vietnam Era America? There are far more, can't even call them metaphors because they are too blatant, references to WWII era Germany. So in that aspect they very closely follow the CS. But the CS would kill them just as they'd kill one of their own troopers that returned through a rift.

[taalismn]

The 'cyclops' look is in with both the NGR and the Tau for another....

You know that now most of their suits have three optics right?

Set in a center panel, yes...just as many Triax armors have two smaller optics on the sides of the main 'eye'...from a distance, they look Cyclopean, though.

[Mercdog]

Just my 2 cents,

I don't believe that there are ANY "good guys" in 40k. IMO, the eldar come closest, but I still wouldn't call them good.

But as a pithy thought, could Imperium members that were brought to Rifts earth possibly think that they were transported through time to ancient Terra, and would they mistake Emperor Prosek for their God-Emperor in his early rise to power?

[Rallan]

Just my 2 cents,

I don't believe that there are ANY "good guys" in 40k. IMO, the eldar come closest, but I still wouldn't call them good.

But as a pithy thought, could Imperium members that were brought to Rifts earth possibly think that they were transported through time to ancient Terra, and would they mistake Emperor Prosek for their God-Emperor in his early rise to power?

Considering how garbled and "revised" history is in 40K, a bunch of dudes from the Imperium who got stuck on Rifts Earth could end up thinking it was virtually anything. I doubt they'd mistake Prosek for an early version of The Emperor though, since one idea that runs right through the core of Imperium religion is that there have been an awful lot of fake emperors and you should never believe any of 'em.

[Ed]

The hands down best description of W40K ever.

Thirty-eight thousand years in the future, the mighty Imperium of Man has expanded across the galaxy... to discover that the galaxy is a hell that would make Hieronymous Bosch **** himself in terror, and that it has a hell. From without, the Imperium is assailed by alien monsters from the depths of space, nightmare death-machines and soulless daemons (as well as soulless death-machines and nightmare daemons); from within, treachery, heresy, mindless incompetence and the festering taint of Chaos threaten to tear it apart.

Warhammer 40,000 is not a happy place. Rather than just being Darker And Edgier, it paints itself black, takes a running jump and hurls itself head first over the edge, bellowing "WAAAGH". The Imperium of Man is an oppressive, stark, and downright miserable place to live in where, for far too many people, living isn't something to do till you die, but something to do till something comes around and kills you in an unbelievably horrible way - quite probably something on your own side. The Messiah has been locked up on life support for the past ten millennia, laid low by his most beloved son, and an incomprehensibly vast Church Militant commits hourly atrocities in his name.

The problem is, as bad as the Imperium is, they're not quite as bad as many of the other factions. Death is about the best you can hope for against the vast majority of the other major players in the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. The basic premise of 40k, insofar as it can be summed up, is that of an eternal, impossibly vast conflict between a number of absurdly powerful genocidal, xenocidal and in one case omnicidal factions, with every single weapon, ideology and creative piece of nastiness imaginable turned up to eleven. The basic sidearm of a Space Marine is a fully automatic armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher. The Astronomican, a navigation aid, has the souls of thousands of psychic humans sacrificed to it every day, dying by inches to feed the machine. The faster-than-light travel used by most factions carries with it a good chance of being eaten by daemons. There are also chainsaw swords, armored gloves that crush tanks, mountain-sized daemonic walking battle cathedrals, tanks the size of city blocks and warships that level continents, if not simply obliterating all life on an entire planet just to be sure. And sometimes even that doesn't work. There is no time for peace, no respite, no forgiveness; there is only war.

And you are going to die.

The 40k universe is a spectacularly brutal playground of tropes and horrible things taken to their absolute extreme, and in some cases, beyond. Entire planets with populations of billions are lost due to rounding errors in tax returns. Orders of capricious, fanatical, genetically engineered Super Soldier Knights Templar serve as the Imperium's special forces, while the trillions of soldiers in its regular armies take disregard for human life further than most people could believe possible. A futuristic space Inquisition ruthlessly hunts down anyone with even a hint of the taint of the heretic, the mutant, or the alien, and is backed up by legions of supercharged daemonhunting super soldiers and fanatical power-armoured battle nuns. The ancient and mysterious manipulator-race contrive wars that see billions dead so that small handfuls of their own may survive, while their depraved cousins cannot live without torturing numberless innocents to death in unimaginably horrible ways. There's a Bug Swarm trying to eat everything in the galaxy, a light-years wide hole in reality through which countless daemons and corrupted daemon-powered super-soldiers periodically attempt to destroy the universe, and an entire civilisation of undying Omnicidal Maniacs serving their star-god masters' desire to exterminate all living creatures, down to the last bacterium. There's a genetically-engineered survivor warrior species infesting every corner of the galaxy and cheerfully trying to kill everything else in the galaxy because it's literally hard-wired into their genetic code. The closest thing to the good guys you can find in this setting is a tiny alien empire sandwiched between all the other factions, and they may or may not have a thing for forcing new subjects into their empire through orbital bombardment, sterilization, and concentration camps, but they will at least offer you admittance to their club.

[Shark_Force]

Well, first you have to consider who the heroes are. A ragtag group of rebels fighting an oppressive military force. Ok, that doesn't sound familiar. Second while element of WWII do inspire Vader alone is an amalgamation of European Imperialism. Long flowing cloak, sword, leads an imperialistic force trying to conquer everything they see. The only Nazi influence in Vader's design is the helmet. When he reveals his identity as Lukes father in Empire it is a statement of origin and destiny. Luke is supposed to be the embodiment of the red blooded American boy, yet he is spawned by everything that it is Imperialistic. The larger statement is that America is spawned from imperialism. There are entire texts written on just this political statement and what Star Wars is about. Check out American Myth and the Legacy of the Vietnam War by John Hellman for more. Further more, when Lucas switched gears to move on to Star Wars it was after he an Milhius were unable to get a studio to pick them up for Apocalypse Now, check into the journal of Elanor Copola for more on that. I hoe that helps clear some things up.

i take it you didn't read the thread. or the title.

empire in this case is referring to the WH40k imperium, not the star wars empire.

[Zer0 Kay]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

But the Empire is a metaphorical representation of Vietnam Era America. So if the Coalition is modeled after them then what does that say about America in general?

Huh?!? Where do you get that the Empire is a metaphore for Vietnam Era America? There are far more, can't even call them metaphors because they are too blatant, references to WWII era Germany. So in that aspect they very closely follow the CS. But the CS would kill them just as they'd kill one of their own troopers that returned through a rift.

Well, first you have to consider who the heroes are. A ragtag group of rebels fighting an oppressive military force. Ok, that doesn't sound familiar. Second while element of WWII do inspire Vader alone is an amalgamation of European Imperialism. Long flowing cloak, sword, leads an imperialistic force trying to conquer everything they see. The only Nazi influence in Vader's design is the helmet. When he reveals his identity as Lukes father in Empire it is a statement of origin and destiny. Luke is supposed to be the embodiment of the red blooded American boy, yet he is spawned by everything that it is Imperialistic. The larger statement is that America is spawned from imperialism. There are entire texts written on just this political statement and what Star Wars is about. Check out American Myth and the Legacy of the Vietnam War by John Hellman for more. Further more, when Lucas switched gears to move on to Star Wars it was after he an Milhius were unable to get a studio to pick them up for Apocalypse Now, check into the journal of Elanor Copola for more on that. I hoe that helps clear some things up.

OK I see, um wrong Empire. We were talking Warhammer 40,000 produced by Games Workshop.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, first you have to consider who the heroes are. A ragtag group of rebels fighting an oppressive military force. Ok, that doesn't sound familiar. Second while element of WWII do inspire Vader alone is an amalgamation of European Imperialism. Long flowing cloak, sword, leads an imperialistic force trying to conquer everything they see. The only Nazi influence in Vader's design is the helmet. When he reveals his identity as Lukes father in Empire it is a statement of origin and destiny. Luke is supposed to be the embodiment of the red blooded American boy, yet he is spawned by everything that it is Imperialistic. The larger statement is that America is spawned from imperialism. There are entire texts written on just this political statement and what Star Wars is about. Check out American Myth and the Legacy of the Vietnam War by John Hellman for more. Further more, when Lucas switched gears to move on to Star Wars it was after he an Milhius were unable to get a studio to pick them up for Apocalypse Now, check into the journal of Elanor Copola for more on that. I hoe that helps clear some things up.

i take it you didn't read the thread. or the title.

empire in this case is referring to the WH40k imperium, not the star wars empire.

I take you didn't read the post I was responding to; in which the CS was compared directly to the Empire of Star Wars fame. I didn't realize other conversations couldn't splinter off from the initial topic.

Ah I see you are responding to the little tiny statement that he made in parenthesis. OK now I get it. In which case how is America a ragtag group sounds more like the Revolutionary War, unless your saying that George Lucas was anti-war, pro-Vietnam? Their are other texts contradicting those views and unless you hear it from the horses mouth it isn't proof that some book wrote that it could be based on the psychological aspects of blah. All that shows is what the author of the book sees in it. Now Vaders helmet being influenced by the German WWII helmet isn't as obvious as the Imperial officer uniforms influence.

[DvlsAdvc8]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

So much for the likes of mother teresa and ghandi eh? Or heck, so much for the US founding fathers, who stood to lose their fortunes and lives should their idealistic American experiment fail. I argue the contrary, a huge number of people are very willing to act selflessly toward the greater good. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief - its a matter of recognition.

[Khanibal]

Didn't Ghandi beat his wife?

[popscythe]

Didn't Ghandi beat his wife?

If his wife was the dead horse of using nazi's in every fiction setting since ww2? Yes. And she DIED. Again.

[Khanibal]

Didn't Ghandi beat his wife?

If his wife was the dead horse of using nazi's in every fiction setting since ww2? Yes. And she DIED. Again.

Are you saying Hindus can marry horses?

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, first you have to consider who the heroes are. A ragtag group of rebels fighting an oppressive military force. Ok, that doesn't sound familiar. Second while element of WWII do inspire Vader alone is an amalgamation of European Imperialism. Long flowing cloak, sword, leads an imperialistic force trying to conquer everything they see. The only Nazi influence in Vader's design is the helmet. When he reveals his identity as Lukes father in Empire it is a statement of origin and destiny. Luke is supposed to be the embodiment of the red blooded American boy, yet he is spawned by everything that it is Imperialistic. The larger statement is that America is spawned from imperialism. There are entire texts written on just this political statement and what Star Wars is about. Check out American Myth and the Legacy of the Vietnam War by John Hellman for more. Further more, when Lucas switched gears to move on to Star Wars it was after he an Milhius were unable to get a studio to pick them up for Apocalypse Now, check into the journal of Elanor Copola for more on that. I hoe that helps clear some things up.

i take it you didn't read the thread. or the title.

empire in this case is referring to the WH40k imperium, not the star wars empire.

I take you didn't read the post I was responding to; in which the CS was compared directly to the Empire of Star Wars fame. I didn't realize other conversations couldn't splinter off from the initial topic.

Ah I see you are responding to the little tiny statement that he made in parenthesis. OK now I get it. In which case how is America a ragtag group sounds more like the Revolutionary War, unless your saying that George Lucas was anti-war, pro-Vietnam? Their are other texts contradicting those views and unless you hear it from the horses mouth it isn't proof that some book wrote that it could be based on the psychological aspects of blah. All that shows is what the author of the book sees in it. Now Vaders helmet being influenced by the German WWII helmet isn't as obvious as the Imperial officer uniforms influence.

While I am not disagreeing with you I am simply pointing out that there is FAR more to the Empire in Star Wars than "Oh they're Nazis". The subtext of the series goes far deeper than a basic gloss. Further, as I own a nearly 8000 point Space Marine Army I'm well versed in the Imperium of Man. I was however simply trying to expand the view of both the Empire and the CS as more than cardboard cutouts. Furthering that example both the Galactic Empire and The Imperium of Man have strong roots in old European Imperialism. Imagery of Nazi Germany does not alone a fascist make.

The Rebels of Star Wars are more akin to the VC. Lucas was against the war, and in Mrs. Copola's diary a conversation regarding those views is discussed. I apologize for apparently derailing the forum.

I didn't say there wasn't more. Yeah well do you own the original Rogue Trader? Do you know how much the Harlequins have been nerfed? Did you know about the Illuminati and the Sensi? You may but the size of your army doesn't determine the amount of knowledge you have. Correct, imagery of Nazi Germany does not alone a facist make but a fascist government and an admeration for Hitler may make a Nazi. What is wrong with derailing? It starts interesting conversations and those that still want to continue the actual topic can still do so. Wow... as long as he wasn't also anti troop. I hate Hanoi Jane, I'd really be sad if he was Hanoi George.

[Zer0 Kay]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

So much for the likes of mother teresa and ghandi eh? Or heck, so much for the US founding fathers, who stood to lose their fortunes and lives should their idealistic American experiment fail. I argue the contrary, a huge number of people are very willing to act selflessly toward the greater good. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief - its a matter of recognition.

Or Martin Luther King Jr. or Harriet Beecher Stowe. Its sad to think that he, Bood Samel, has no good tendancies. Granted I beleive, and I'm sure if he was alive so would Dr. Luther, that good acts do not come from man, but from the LORD as man's heart is dark and we are naturally selfish.

[Khanibal]

The only minis game I got into was Mechwarrior Dark Ages. or Mechclix!

[Bood Samel]

In Rifts the CS is typically presented and used as villains. On these boards as of late there seems to be a bit more of casting of the CS in this light, that this interpretation of the CS is popular in terms of its game use. But I wonder what people who think of the Coalition as villains think or would think of the Imperium in Warhammer 40k? 40k explicitly revolves around endless galactic racial war on a genocidal scale, and the Imperium, an overtly repressive, racist, totalitarian theocracy are presented as the good guys. Or maybe not so much as good (there aren't really any "good guys in 40k which is whats good about it.), but they are presented as the main group for people to identify with. I noticed that in a youtube interview 40k novel writer Dan Abnett that in a comment about the Imperium vs Chaos he made a reference to Imperium's way of life as being our way of life.

Would palladium fans freak out if Rifts writers made such a comment about the CS? Would people be offended if a Rifts book came out that was centered around pro-CS themes? Like say an adventure book of military, espionage and black-ops missions for CS characters?

Um, you're kinda misinterpreting Warhammer 40K if you think the Imperium are presented as the "good" guys. They're presented as the protagonists sure, but that's mainly just because they're human beings and their human outlook on things makes them the easiest guys for players and readers to understand. This is a setting where the other "good" options are a bunch of cynical mystics trying to manipulate everyone else to their own advantage and who'd quite happily destroy all other intelligent life in the galaxy if it would ensure the survival of their own species, and a bunch of warmongering communists who want to assimilate everyone they meet into serving the Greater Good at the barrel of a gun. It's a setting where there's no point complaining that hte good guys aren't squeaky clean, because nobody who writes for the setting has ever tried to convince you that they're anything but a bunch of narrow-minded bloodthirsty jerks whose xenophobia, brutality, and ignorance are simply strengthening the nasty space widget that they're supposed to be fighting against.

As opposed to the Coalition States, who exist in a setting where the epic struggle between good and evil is a recurring theme, and where Truth, Justice, and the American Way might be in peril but you know damn well that it'll triumph eventually if a few resourceful heroes roll up their shirtsleeves and get to work. The Imperium are nasty bastards in a universe populated entirely by nasty bastards, and the sheer scale of their nastiness is a deliberate part of the gothic space opera groove the setting as a whole is shooting for. The Coalition States are nasty bastards in a world full of hope and heroes, and they're being nasty purely so players can look at them and go "yep, these guys are unambiguously villains". You only have to flip through the main book to see that the CS are deliberately styled as the Empire in Star Wars meets the Third Reich (because y'know, the empire in Star Wars just wasn't naziesque enough ) just to make sure nobody gets confused about what the CS's role in the setting might be. Hell, there are entire character classes in the core book that are clearly built around the concept that the Coalition States were supposed to be the main antagonists of the game.

You know you do bring up a good point in that Rifts is slanted towards a context where the players are out to achieve a sense of the greater, universal good. Personally I play Rifts where its just cosmic social darwinism between groups, races and individuals on a ruined world. There is no good or evil, just who survives and succeeds. Like real life. The CS positions, while heavy handed and self-defeating at times (FQ has a better balance I think), are completely reasonable in the context of their situation. Universal liberty, democracy and equality being extended to other branches of humanity is arguably difficult to the point of being perhaps self-defeating, let alone to non-human races.

I only enjoy running campaigns based around self-serving anti-heroes because I can't suspend disbelief enough to enjoy typical heroic themes. People just aren't like that. People who say otherwise are either lying to you and/or themselves.

So much for the likes of mother teresa and ghandi eh? Or heck, so much for the US founding fathers, who stood to lose their fortunes and lives should their idealistic American experiment fail. I argue the contrary, a huge number of people are very willing to act selflessly toward the greater good. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief - its a matter of recognition.

Or Martin Luther King Jr. or Harriet Beecher Stowe. Its sad to think that he, Bood Samel, has no good tendancies. Granted I beleive, and I'm sure if he was alive so would Dr. Luther, that good acts do not come from man, but from the LORD as man's heart is dark and we are naturally selfish.

Martin Luther King frequented white hookers and all his speeches were ghost written by his largely Jewish and Communist tied handlers. He wasn't a good man, he was a puppet of Cultural Marxists aiming to undermine Western Culture. There are no good people.

[Rallan]

Martin Luther King frequented white hookers and all his speeches were ghost written by his largely Jewish and Communist tied handlers. He wasn't a good man, he was a puppet of Cultural Marxists aiming to undermine Western Culture. There are no good people.

J. Edgar Hoover was a passionate believer in American culture and dedicated his entire adult life to defending a lifestyle that he saw as precious, and to ensuring that future generations would be able to enjoy the same privileges that he saw blossoming in his country. He broke laws, incriminated himself, and knowingly put himself into situations where his entire career would be destroyed if the public ever found out, because he felt he had a duty to the American public that transcended petty concerns about his own career and reputation. There are no bad people.

[Khanibal]

Topic lock in 3, 2, ...