I think HU was designed to be a "thinking man's "game

[Ankhr]

I think that that was pretty much stated in HU. Then when HU2 mega-heroes were added as a response to player requests. The PU books have also added to the scope of the powers. All of this is common knowledge and I think accepted. I think it's had some of the "power creep" you tend to see in comics and rpgs. Not that that's bad, it just happens. The idea with HU and HU2 is for a large variety of characters that can be created. I think Kevin wanted the player to be able to play any type of hero, but not to copy any comic character in terms of power levels or limits. Also, it is *supposed* to fit into a megaversal system. So you could go to BTS or Rifts ( taking either end of the power spectrum) and play. I love playing godlings, but I can tell that in many ways they are more suited for MDC worlds. Not that I didn't make up a *modified* npc godling using PU2 . Playable, yes, but it is somewhat different. I think that in the e nd HU2 is designed to allow you to play a huge range of characters, but not designed to allow for most of the Marvel, or DC power levels.

[Steeler49er]

I think that that was pretty much stated in HU. Then when HU2 mega-heroes were added as a response to player requests. The PU books have also added to the scope of the powers. All of this is common knowledge and I think accepted. I think it's had some of the "power creep" you tend to see in comics and rpgs. Not that that's bad, it just happens. The idea with HU and HU2 is for a large variety of characters that can be created. I think Kevin wanted the player to be able to play any type of hero, but not to copy any comic character in terms of power levels or limits. Also, it is *supposed* to fit into a megaversal system. So you could go to BTS or Rifts ( taking either end of the power spectrum) and play. I love playing godlings, but I can tell that in many ways they are more suited for MDC worlds. Not that I didn't make up a *modified* npc godling using PU2 . Playable, yes, but it is somewhat different. I think that in the e nd HU2 is designed to allow you to play a huge range of characters, but not designed to allow for most of the Marvel, or DC power levels.

wAS ThIS a qUEstIon?

Kidding, I kid...
I don't mind one bit if the creator of an RGP sets up the power level of his game to be one way... But that ONLY ever makes sence to the game system when ALL of the supers sources of power are from the Same source! There are many dozens of RPG, Comics, Novels, Anime, TV shows, and Movies that have done this where all supers may be differing in type of power but all draw their powers from a same or similar source, and as such are ALL living in a 'pre-set power level' world.

Kevin made the mistake of "Attempted Enforced Game Balance" instead of doing the above, and it simply doesn't work (or make any sence) in the Comicy Book-esque' world he has created... And it is This illogically enforced balance that has always put the buyers of his books out. That should be, and generally is the job/perview of the GM.
He's got FAR to many power classes which makes it Logical that One power classes 'power level' would end up out doing anothers (if not right away, than in time), meaning that Since they all come from soooo many backgrounds they can Not, in all good reason, have the same weakened state, and it is This that bugs people.

Kevin set up a game that lacked any kind of logical premis, story world, or comon power theme and thus, the Only way for the game to truly grow-up any, was to remove the illogical power restrictions placed into it. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I do like HUL allot, but the game was set up so that the world RESTRICTED thinking, not promoted it. Kevin clearly said that he wanted a 'Thinking Game', but then he based the game whole leveling system off of an EXP chart that gave you Better EP for fighting a Villain and beating him up than performing skills. ALL OF THOSE 'OTHER' POWER MAD RPG's give you more better EP for creative and intelligent game play than PB's Experiance system does. PLUS those Other games often do away with the Illogical 'EVERTHING MUST GROW' at the same time level system of PB. In WW games (well knonw for having truly Idiotic ST's that do Not enforce power training times) the game makes it clear that Just having the EP is Not enough for you to get the skills you want W/O the training time. I was resently in an ABERRANT/Trinity game where I had over 40 EP and I couldn't spend a single point of it cuz I had No way to train...

If this was a Palladium Books game, I would have leveled up twice by now and Every skill I never used would have gained levels for no reason. I ALSO would have been able to pick up skills (without ANY logical prerequests-like MD w/o 7 years of med school and NO knowledge of basic CPR) that I'da needed No point to have learnt the skills at.
PB games are Not set up to reward creative usage of a power, but rather to insult you for using powers over skills... Even though the skill (Percential%) system seldom has ANY usfullness in the game.


So, to recap...
Yes Kevin wanted a Thinking mans game.
No, the system is not set up for thinking.
Yes the game trys for balance.
No, the way the system is set up, it can and has Never been able to have such balance.
Yes the game is fun and we all love it.
No, it was Not a good Idea to use 'Enforced Game Balance" the way KS & PB have done as this is Not fun...
It's annoying.

And to that Last point... Kevin fixed it ALL (I mean everything) by making it ALSO clear that YOU can do whatever, and play the game however, you want. I speak of House Rules. Kevin felt that "If you do not like the way something is, change it".
So all of the above dislikes are Nil-Nullified non-issue cuz Kevin Was smart enough to state Over and over again that the rules are yours to change.

[Steeler49er]

I will ALSO point out that MARVEL, Dark Horse, DC, and many other companies Never had an real power creep because they STARTED out with every power already available. Silver Surfer and the FFour Both fought Galactus, and Both used brains over Brains Over Brawns to defeat the G-Man.

90% of the over powered RPG's, and Comics promoted the use of 'Brains' over 'Power' and ALL did a better job of it than PB who just Punched you for ever being creative... Not that every writer of Every PB book held back themselves with their often better off NPC's. Ever notice that the rules prevented YOU from doing things that the NPC's in the books Could do?
That's not called power creep, it's called a "Double Standard".
And players, GM's, and game book owners Hate that.

Never tell/rant that it is something you are against, then let yourself be able to do that thing and yet Still restrict the player's/GM from doing... That's called being a Hippycrit.

[Rallan]

And to that Last point... Kevin fixed it ALL (I mean everything) by making it ALSO clear that YOU can do whatever, and play the game however, you want. I speak of House Rules. Kevin felt that "If you do not like the way something is, change it".
So all of the above dislikes are Nil-Nullified non-issue cuz Kevin Was smart enough to state Over and over again that the rules are yours to change.

Dude, that is not a fix. Virtually every RPG writer ever has invoked the "Golden Rule" of "You're the GM, so you can make stuff up or tweak the rules a bit if you want" at some point in their writing career. It's stock standard, like ashtrays in a car. It doesn't make a great RPG even greater, and it doesn't make a regular RPG great.

And anyone who thinks that it is a fix, or that it's a great way to defend their favourite RPG when people point out that it's not very good at doing something, is just kidding themselves.

[Steeler49er]

And to that Last point... Kevin fixed it ALL (I mean everything) by making it ALSO clear that YOU can do whatever, and play the game however, you want. I speak of House Rules. Kevin felt that "If you do not like the way something is, change it".
So all of the above dislikes are Nil-Nullified non-issue cuz Kevin Was smart enough to state Over and over again that the rules are yours to change.

Dude, that is not a fix. Virtually every RPG writer ever has invoked the "Golden Rule" of "You're the GM, so you can make stuff up or tweak the rules a bit if you want" at some point in their writing career. It's stock standard, like ashtrays in a car. It doesn't make a great RPG even greater, and it doesn't make a regular RPG great.

And anyone who thinks that it is a fix, or that it's a great way to defend their favourite RPG when people point out that it's not very good at doing something, is just kidding themselves.

Yeah, you just said how I feel as well
I was Sooo full-a-bs when I wrote that.
FYI-I loved your ultra correct Ashtray comment... It's so true.... so very very true.

[Ranger]

That truely depends on what your GM is. If he is a hack and slash GM with only one way to win, no matter how much thought you put into it, you loose if you do not take the GMs way.

[Rallan]

That truely depends on what your GM is. If he is a hack and slash GM with only one way to win, no matter how much thought you put into it, you loose if you do not take the GMs way.

It still depends a lot on the rules and setting of the game though Ranger. Some games strongly encourage hack'n'slash (DnD from 3rd ed onwards is a prime example, since doing CRPG-style combat skill trees in the form of feats has become one of its main selling points), while others encourage genre emulation or character development.

You could have the best GM in the world when it comes to getting everyone into the spirit of things, but if he's got a hack and slash system that rewards players for unimaginatively spamming their most powerful attack over and over instead of a cinematic system that rewards them for behaving like characters in the genre ought to, then he's got a big ol' handicap that he wouldn't have had if he was using another system.

And for anyone who wants to argue otherwise and argue that it's all about the GM and the players and that the system's not all that important, go and run a campaign with FATAL and let me know how it works out for you

[The Beast]

That truely depends on what your GM is. If he is a hack and slash GM with only one way to win, no matter how much thought you put into it, you loose if you do not take the GMs way.

It still depends a lot on the rules and setting of the game though Ranger. Some games strongly encourage hack'n'slash (DnD from 3rd ed onwards is a prime example, since doing CRPG-style combat skill trees in the form of feats has become one of its main selling points), while others encourage genre emulation or character development.

You could have the best GM in the world when it comes to getting everyone into the spirit of things, but if he's got a hack and slash system that rewards players for unimaginatively spamming their most powerful attack over and over instead of a cinematic system that rewards them for behaving like characters in the genre ought to, then he's got a big ol' handicap that he wouldn't have had if he was using another system.

And for anyone who wants to argue otherwise and argue that it's all about the GM and the players and that the system's not all that important, go and run a campaign with FATAL and let me know how it works out for you

What about Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu or GURPS?

Two of those suck, and the third one just ends up with all the PCs going insane and then dying, so none of them count.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That truely depends on what your GM is. If he is a hack and slash GM with only one way to win, no matter how much thought you put into it, you loose if you do not take the GMs way.

It still depends a lot on the rules and setting of the game though Ranger. Some games strongly encourage hack'n'slash (DnD from 3rd ed onwards is a prime example, since doing CRPG-style combat skill trees in the form of feats has become one of its main selling points), while others encourage genre emulation or character development.

You could have the best GM in the world when it comes to getting everyone into the spirit of things, but if he's got a hack and slash system that rewards players for unimaginatively spamming their most powerful attack over and over instead of a cinematic system that rewards them for behaving like characters in the genre ought to, then he's got a big ol' handicap that he wouldn't have had if he was using another system.

And for anyone who wants to argue otherwise and argue that it's all about the GM and the players and that the system's not all that important, go and run a campaign with FATAL and let me know how it works out for you

What about Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu or GURPS?

Paranoia and CoC I can get, but what's wrong wiht GURPS?

[Nemo235]

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with any of these games. The rules of the game simulate the genre or background they are based upon.
Paranoia is about...paranoia. Watch your back, trust no one and get the dirt on your fellow citizens before they vaporize you.
Call of Cthulhu about the character's crusade against an indifferent and maddening reality.
GURPS can be used for many genres.
Heroes Unlimited is about saving the day and defeating the villains, among as many other themes as their are character types and dealing with the question of their "humanity" and place in society.

Each game has different expectaions about how the characters act based on the genre.
They are all "thinking man's" games, as opposed to simple board games or wargames.
There is nothing wrong with hack-n-slash games, if that is what everyone expects to play when the game starts.
But a "thinking man's" game requires that the player consider the current situation and consequences of actions their character takes in relation to the imaginary world.
In other words, continuity.
Yes, just like in comics or movies, the character's actions will have reprecussions on future situations.

If a character in Heroes Unlimited starts killing, the law, other heroes and bigger baddies will start gunning for them, because in the context of the genre they will have become a villain.

Of course, being based on the superheroe genre, there are going to be alot of fights. But the exerience point table is set up to reward the player for other things as well.
Just looking at it you can see points awarded for playing in character/alignment, using skills, planning, deductive reasoning, self sacrifice/charity and even avoiding violence.

Because, despite the power creep in order to simulate even more powers and origins, it can be a "thinking man's" game.

[Iczer]

Two of those suck, and the third one just ends up with all the PCs going insane and then dying, so none of them count.

I have a deep an unabiding respect for any man who will say this about Gurps.

Batts

[Rallan]

To me the heroes in HU are more like the heroes from Mystery Men. They’re the other guys. This is not to say the characters from HU are any less adventurous than those from the other systems and/or media, but they have their heroics on a different level.

Or in other words, HU is a game that doesn't do what it says on the box.