bad power combos

[Senator Cybus]

Well, I wouldn't allow a player to simultaneously use powers that logically contradict each other - APS: Fire + APS: Ice, Growth + Shrink, APS: Stone + APS: Smoke (you're either solid or you're not). To Hell with Kelvin, the dirty freak!

But something like Bio-Armour and Body Weapons is such a natural combo that it seems silly not to allow it. Even something wackier like Body Weapons, Tentacles and Lycanthropy ("Call me...WarWolf!") isn't so bad, especially when you keep in mind that anything the players can come up with, the GM can throw right back at them.

Oh, and any combo that includes Invulnerability is automatically forbidden, and likely to make me hurl D4's at the offending player until he bleeds to death.

[Neorealist]

No offence, but if you are banning powers like winged flight and APS metal? Metal wings are a time honored and perfectly acceptable alternate; (not to break the conversion ban, but there are a couple of heroes with exactly that you know...) And besides, it's not like they make planes (and other flying devices) out of styrofoam after all.

(Warning, the following is a rant; not necessarily directing at you per say, but more at the general attitude that appears to be prevelent thus far)

<rant>
I think that i wouldn't ban any powers solely on the basis of "well in my head that power doesn't work with that other power for this completely arbitrary but 'makes sense to me' reason" Since that particular route assumes either that your player didn't bother to come up with a reasonable justification for his powers, and/or the fact that he or she did, but you just disagreed with them. I tend not to presume i know more or 'better' than my players until proven otherwise

Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of players detailing out the 'how' and 'why' their powers do what they do, but i'm not going to smack someone down for taking winged flight with aps metal (instead of something like wingless) just because i can't wrap my head around how their lift would be generated. </rant>

Stuff like kelvin? Seems fine to me, i admire the creativity that comes with having both the aps-es cover one half of his body rather than trying to blend the both of them or simply taking the most useful aspects of each. For a pc to have those powers? he'd had to detail how he wanted to combine them, but the only reason i'd ban the combo would be if it was too powerful, not too nonsensical.

[Al Blotto]

No offence, but if you are banning powers like winged flight and APS metal? Metal wings are a time honored and perfectly acceptable alternate; (not to break the conversion ban, but there are a couple of heroes with exactly that you know...)

That's when you bust out Mega Wings. I can't think of anything that I would ban yet. But I'll work on it.

[Neorealist]

Yeah megawings works too; if you just want the metal wings rather than your entire body turned into a similar substance.

In general though GM's should be enablers of sorts; encouraging and promoting creativity and ingenuity rather than stifling and limiting it.

[kevarin]

usually i dont ban wings and a aps power but i do put penalties
for useing forms like metal and stone unless they pic a strength power
usually i cut speed to 50 mph and give them a flight duration equal
to there pe with a rest time equal to how long they were in the air


but i would ban something like aps fire and expulsion ice unless they had a really good back story for why
there char was that way

[Neorealist]

Said attitude exists because GMs are trying to run games that make some sort of sense. If the players are coming up with characters that defy common sense and attack their ability to suspend disbelieve, then the game will cease to be fun.

It doesn't seem like we are saying anything that is all that different.

It's just the apparent attitude i guess; i expect my players to generally come up with some sort of reasonably coherant justifications for their powers, and thus work with them to make whatever it is they've picked work out. Granted if they don't bother to do so? they don't get to play, but i figured that was a given. (and so allow them to pick pretty much anything with the single provisio that i may ban if i deem it too powerful.)

(edit: changed my mind, deleted a bunch of text that wasn't that helpful)

[Steeler49er]

No offence, but if you are banning powers like winged flight and APS metal? Metal wings are a time honored and perfectly acceptable alternate; (not to break the conversion ban, but there are a couple of heroes with exactly that you know...) And besides, it's not like they make planes (and other flying devices) out of styrofoam after all.

A similar argument betwix I and Hearld is what got the combo thread banned the first time, But even I never went so far as to allow FULL APS: Metal and Winged Flight!!!!

Mine was a Combo of "Matter Creation (ME): Metal and "Animate Matter"... At least with those two the PC/NPC isn't a GIANT Chunk 'O' Metal. In mine you had to have enough speed (LvL 6 Er Higher to get lift) and the wings needed to built like airplane wings (Mostly hollow) and with an 18-20 wingspan <each> at Least... And even then this only worked because of the Un-natural Nature of "Animate Matter".



Killgore had it spot on, you Can combine APS: Metal +Winged Flight, But the negatives are gonna be Harsh! And NO, I have NO issue with Kelvin since PB alread allows you to something similar do this with APS:Limbs!

What I don't allow is Idiotic, illogical, and Munchkin combos "IN GAME"... My players can create whatever they want, but I've been know to shoot down even Non-questionable powers & combos, simply because I knew the player(s) wer trying to Abuse the game. You can play any realistic (well thought out) character consepts, as long as your doing it for role playing and Not Roll Playing.

I've had players that wished to play Invulnerability or APS: Fire & Water (everyones favorite Fire Water ) and let them because I KNEW they had a good character consept going. Juxta-Conversly I've Not alowed players to have EX PS or Nightvision, simply because they're character was did not fit the power, the back story and or powers explanation was an insulting joke!!




APS:Gas + APS:Water No!
APS: Gas with the ability to transition to APS: Water, than APS: Ice-Yes!
APS: Fire + APS: Ice, YES, as long as it is ½ and ½ or any %there of where they are not directly merged.
APS: Ice + Energy Sheath: Fire-Yes, cause just the outside is on fire, it's not Two APS forms occupping the same space.


All as long as your doing it fer fun and RP, and Not just to Cheat or Abuse the system or the players. I LIKE creativity in my players.

[Al Blotto]

If you change to metal, you are metal. If you then change to liquid, you are liquid. You cannot be both at the same time. If you want to be a liquid metal, then invent APS Mercury (which actually isn't a bad idea, but I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it).

APS: Mercury is in PU3.

[Overlord Rikonius]

No offence, but if you are banning powers like winged flight and APS metal? Metal wings are a time honored and perfectly acceptable alternate; (not to break the conversion ban, but there are a couple of heroes with exactly that you know...) And besides, it's not like they make planes (and other flying devices) out of styrofoam after all.

Metal wings, yes. Metal body? No. The good dead guy who likes curved building components had metal wings but a blue squishy body.
That said, seems pretty straightforward to me. If I was GMing and a player came up with APS: Metal and Winged Flight, I'd rule as follows: He can fly normally in organic form, but can only glide in metal form (let him use Flight Glide in metal form), due to the weight.
Besides, it adds a tactical element. Do I fly faster so I can catch the guy/escape? Or do I turn metal for durability/strength?

(Warning, the following is a rant; not necessarily directing at you per say, but more at the general attitude that appears to be prevelent thus far)

<rant>
I think that i wouldn't ban any powers solely on the basis of "well in my head that power doesn't work with that other power for this completely arbitrary but 'makes sense to me' reason" Since that particular route assumes either that your player didn't bother to come up with a reasonable justification for his powers, and/or the fact that he or she did, but you just disagreed with them. I tend not to presume i know more or 'better' than my players until proven otherwise

I would make such a ban, but I'd let the player try to explain first. But it depends on the power category. I don't want science based characters like mutants, experiments, or super invention types to have powers that don't make sense (one reason I didn't ever allow Clock Manipulation). But if you're playing a magic dude, I'd be more likely to let stuff that doesn't make sense slide, because, hey, magic.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of players detailing out the 'how' and 'why' their powers do what they do, but i'm not going to smack someone down for taking winged flight with aps metal (instead of something like wingless) just because i can't wrap my head around how their lift would be generated. </rant>

Stuff like kelvin? Seems fine to me, i admire the creativity that comes with having both the aps-es cover one half of his body rather than trying to blend the both of them or simply taking the most useful aspects of each. For a pc to have those powers? he'd had to detail how he wanted to combine them, but the only reason i'd ban the combo would be if it was too powerful, not too nonsensical.

Just keep him away from speedsters

[Neorealist]

That said, seems pretty straightforward to me. If I was GMing and a player came up with APS: Metal and Winged Flight, I'd rule as follows: He can fly normally in organic form, but can only glide in metal form (let him use Flight Glide in metal form), due to the weight.
Besides, it adds a tactical element. Do I fly faster so I can catch the guy/escape? Or do I turn metal for durability/strength?

I'd personally probably just apply the '1/2 to speed' effect of aps:metal to the flight speed of anyone taking winged, (or for that matter the wingless, energy, glide, and/or sonic flight, etc. powers) while in metal form and leave it at that. Though really i'd most likely not even do that, after all it doesn't mention flight in the sub-ability.

If this particular aps-metal guys' wings would have to have the lift capacity of something 16 times their size and density ratio according to physics to even get off the ground, so what? They are a superhero. You know, the kind which can typically leap tall building etc, in a number of ultimately cool but reality defying ways?

If you aren't going to quibble over captain 'sees through walls' over there, it seems sort of silly to me to give metal-winged-and-bodied-man a hard time.

[BillionSix]

Well, I wouldn't allow a player to simultaneously use powers that logically contradict each other - APS: Fire + APS: Ice, Growth + Shrink, APS: Stone + APS: Smoke (you're either solid or you're not). To Hell with Kelvin, the dirty freak!

I kind of agree, but I think something like Growth and Shrink are kind of complimentary, not contradictory. Sort of a general-purpose "I can control my size" character.

Brian

[Al Blotto]

Well, I wouldn't allow a player to simultaneously use powers that logically contradict each other - APS: Fire + APS: Ice, Growth + Shrink, APS: Stone + APS: Smoke (you're either solid or you're not). To Hell with Kelvin, the dirty freak!

I kind of agree, but I think something like Growth and Shrink are kind of complimentary, not contradictory. Sort of a general-purpose "I can control my size" character.

Brian

Agreed. But just not at the same time.

[Dog_O_War]

The only bad power combos are the ones that make you go In that order.

That said, there are many power combos I don't like, mainly due to a singular power being too good.

Before I go into ones I don't like, I'ma comment on this APS: metal and winged flight gig.

FIREBALL! Seriously, think about it - you guys are arguing whether a metal person can fly if he had wings. Why don't we argue on how a blind guy can shoot lasers from his eyes while we're at it, 'cause clearly the lenses in his eyes are all cloudy, right?
That aside, a regular human couldn't fly with winged flight anyways. He'd have to have hollow bones and a different muscle-strength mass to lighten the human body. As well, he has zero ways of navigating as flying with wings requires a tail rudder anyways (not something included).
So if a person can't already fly with wings - and we allow it anyways, why stop there? It is already unrealistic, so making him metal and saying that his newly found supernatural strength is more than enough to comphensate for the added weight. He's just flapping like a hummingbird is all.

Power combos I think are bad are ones that involve an "I win" feature. Magnetism straight-up in a modern setting has proven to be the most beligerant power to deal with. I still allow it though, as it is a singular power - but generally if someone takes this power, they become severely restricted in further power choices (if allowed any at all).

Actually, it really is just that one power that I have a problem with. I didn't know it though until I had to deal with it.

BUT I generally only allow one, maybe two majors (depending on what they are), as well as 1-3 minors with a major, or up to 6 minors (as per the experiment category option - but not 3 majors). It almost doesn't matter what powers they are; the ones that work in synergy are the ones I feel like I should ban, but at the same time they are cool so I don't. If someone wanted to play a guy with APS: Ice and EE-Fire, sure why not? It's not my hero, so who am I to say that his power combo is just too unbelieveable, when there are FIREBALL!s and stuff.

[Steeler49er]

What would I ban? What do I already ban? The big one is Invulnerability. Although magic and psionics really hurt this type of character, it generally unbalances the game. How? Well, I have to create villains that can overpower this guy (not necessarily kill, but overpower), and this puts the rest of the group at a serious disadvantage.

? Why would you create a villain that can over power the Inv PC?
An everyday, common off the shelf psychic can kill and Inv character with simple mind control (Hypnotic Suggestion-To walk off a cliff and take a swim<Into the ocean>). Or another common bad guy "Mage", Vampire/master, Demon, Alien with Valxian variable Frequ energy gun, Villian with Chemical Secretion (Euphoria etc)... A guy/girl/it with CEF: Air (suffocation), CEF:Earth (suck mr. Inv into the ground), Villain name "Graffitee" with the power of Color-Manipulation<Blind>, a two bit thugg with an aerosol can of LSD!

Your Inv fer sure, by not unkillable, nor are you super resistant to being restrained. In reality, only a very few supers should ever have this or Any powers more than 3 times at most, and even then not all the same version...
Let a player play this power as a Mega-power but not as an actual mega-Just gets a weakness.

Your too hard on this power, you don't need to Overkill to stop em (and thus overkilling the party in the prossess).

[Al Blotto]

What would I ban? What do I already ban? The big one is Invulnerability. Although magic and psionics really hurt this type of character, it generally unbalances the game. How? Well, I have to create villains that can overpower this guy (not necessarily kill, but overpower), and this puts the rest of the group at a serious disadvantage.

? Why would you create a villain that can over power the Inv PC?
An everyday, common off the shelf psychic can kill and Inv character with simple mind control (Hypnotic Suggestion-To walk off a cliff and take a swim<Into the ocean>). Or another common bad guy "Mage", Vampire/master, Demon, Alien with Valxian variable Frequ energy gun, Villian with Chemical Secretion (Euphoria etc)... A guy/girl/it with CEF: Air (suffocation), CEF:Earth (suck mr. Inv into the ground), Villain name "Graffitee" with the power of Color-Manipulation<Blind>, a two bit thugg with an aerosol can of LSD!

But then you have to specifically tailor every encounter to include someone who can "deal" with that Invulnerable character. When you should be focusing on an interesting villain to fight the PCs. Making every villain Magic or Psionic is going to get boring very fast. The other suggestions you made are all valid, but not everyone is going to want to include one of those baddies cause of a power someone chose.

[Steeler49er]

If you change to metal, you are metal. If you then change to liquid, you are liquid. You cannot be both at the same time. If you want to be a liquid metal, then invent APS Mercury (which actually isn't a bad idea, but I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it).

APS: Mercury is in PU3.

You just proved my point. If you want to waste 2 majors on APS Metal and APS Water, then so be it. But you can't turn yourself into liquid metal in this way. Take APS Mercury instead, and use the other major on something else.

Problem was/is that this mean that you have ta wait 5-15 year before you can play a cretain power! What was everyone supposed to do for the years prior to the new books like PU1 & 3? The only way for us to have had an APS: Mercury type power in the past was to combine Metal & Liquid (it's Not called APS: Water), and even though players Now have this power to play (Mercury), we simply didn't always.

How then can peeps come-up with new ideas if we are to forever be beholden to PB to print out a new book. As is, Wiki-Black Vault has enough powers to fill 12 more PU books, yet PB has yet to make even one more. NO APS: Liquid & Metal no longer need to be put together, but only now!
FYI-HUL came out in 1984 or some such year, PU2 06=20Years to wait... So yeah, yah gotta do somethin in the mean time.

[Overlord Rikonius]

If you change to metal, you are metal. If you then change to liquid, you are liquid. You cannot be both at the same time. If you want to be a liquid metal, then invent APS Mercury (which actually isn't a bad idea, but I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it).

APS: Mercury is in PU3.

You just proved my point. If you want to waste 2 majors on APS Metal and APS Water, then so be it. But you can't turn yourself into liquid metal in this way. Take APS Mercury instead, and use the other major on something else.

Problem was/is that this mean that you have ta wait 5-15 year before you can play a cretain power! What was everyone supposed to do for the years prior to the new books like PU1 & 3? The only way for us to have had an APS: Mercury type power in the past was to combine Metal & Liquid (it's Not called APS: Water), and even though players Now have this power to play (Mercury), we simply didn't always.

How then can peeps come-up with new ideas if we are to forever be beholden to PB to print out a new book. As is, Wiki-Black Vault has enough powers to fill 12 more PU books, yet PB has yet to make even one more. NO APS: Liquid & Metal no longer need to be put together, but only now!
FYI-HUL came out in 1984 or some such year, PU2 06=20Years to wait... So yeah, yah gotta do somethin in the mean time.

Well, using a net-power, though usually requiring GM approval, isn't as extreme a change as trying to merge two existing and seemingly-mutually-exclusive powers together.

[Steeler49er]

Agreed, but then, Net powers really didn't exist in the past either... At least Not en-mass, and Not untill about the 90's.
APS:Metal+Liquid is No longer nessisary anymore thanks to Mercury, but Bad combos like that will Still be needed in the future untill official power fill that void.

[Steeler49er]

What would I ban? What do I already ban? The big one is Invulnerability. Although magic and psionics really hurt this type of character, it generally unbalances the game. How? Well, I have to create villains that can overpower this guy (not necessarily kill, but overpower), and this puts the rest of the group at a serious disadvantage.

? Why would you create a villain that can over power the Inv PC?
An everyday, common off the shelf psychic can kill and Inv character with simple mind control (Hypnotic Suggestion-To walk off a cliff and take a swim<Into the ocean>). Or another common bad guy "Mage", Vampire/master, Demon, Alien with Valxian variable Frequ energy gun, Villian with Chemical Secretion (Euphoria etc)... A guy/girl/it with CEF: Air (suffocation), CEF:Earth (suck mr. Inv into the ground), Villain name "Graffitee" with the power of Color-Manipulation<Blind>, a two bit thugg with an aerosol can of LSD!

But then you have to specifically tailor every encounter to include someone who can "deal" with that Invulnerable character. When you should be focusing on an interesting villain to fight the PCs. Making every villain Magic or Psionic is going to get boring very fast. The other suggestions you made are all valid, but not everyone is going to want to include one of those baddies cause of a power someone chose.

Agreed that you shouldn't need to tailor Every game for the Inv guy, but than I doubt you don't need to tailor every game alittle towards the others as well. If you've got someone with APS: Metal than your STILL gonna havta tailor the game so that you've got someone that can defeat such a fellow... No common street gang would stand a chance, your gonna need something more... And considering How freaking many psychics, super geniuses (and etc) there are in HUL you'll have years of game play before it gets old.

ALSO-The simple fact is that every game shouldn't be a Super Slam Fest... Only 50% should have any of that in it, and there's Nothing to say that the Inv character will even get to be involved (called away, wrong place when other players need Him/Her/it, Got caught/ fell into a trap, or was Duped into going the wrong direction). I've Never had a problem with the VERY few times players have used this power... (I never like it when players are uncreative and take a power more than once with-out reason). So really, it shouldn't really be an issue.

Inv;
#Can't be everywhere, even with Multiple beings or teleport (teleport is a great way to kill off ANY player).

#Not invulnerable to; Poisons, drugs, radiation, super techs, traps, psionics, magics, the SN, Chi-martel artists, distractions, corruption, threats against familiy & friends, or suffocation.

#Inv. Can't go into the Astral Plain, Virtual Net Space, Space, Underground Through, alternate Dims, nor the Dream Stream Unassisited.

#Inv. An Inv, Can't save a lady from falling off a building...
#Inv. Charaters are in the Same boat when fighting a Metal Man, that Everyone else is in when They face said Inv. Guy/Gal...It! He/she (Mr.Inv) can swing allday, all he/she wants at the APS: Metal PC?NPC and will still do Nothing... While the SuperHumanly Damaging and Stronger APS character can throw the Inv guy all around..
APS: Metal=Invulnerability to someone with Invulnerability.

Your just Not all that much of a "Super Hero" when all you can do is take the hit. They are Just Invulnerable. Ya just gotta Not play super slam fight games... And when you do finally get to those rare 10-20% of Pure slam fest games, out of the 50% of Total Games that Actually have fighting in them, than YES, use the above options and remember that the Invulnerable person will still win strait fights sometimes...

[NMI]

As is, Wiki-Black Vault has enough powers to fill 12 more PU books

And it grows practically everyday!

[Steeler49er]

Just Like my cute goofy daughter...

They both need waffles and surp

[Al Blotto]

Oh.

My.

God.

That was the most adorable thing since Buddy Christ.

[Dog_O_War]

I allow all powers, but require that every power must be random rolled. Simple way to fix this problem.

Wow, sounds like a real fun time
Especially when someone happens to roll clock manipulation and adaptation.

Never go with "random" powers unless the player wants that. Otherwise it is the quickest way to have a game become unsatisfying for a player, or have the game turn into a joke. As much as this sounds like a command I'm giving here, it is meant as friendly advice.

I've played in a game where we rolled random powers, and I ended up with Adhesion, Clock Manipulation, Supervision (macro), and Extrodinary Physical Endurance. I was basically useless and little more than a glorified scout for the majority of scenarios.

Also, the above powers are ones I'd never let be used in a combo, as this is the worst combo a person could have, basically. Atleast with Colour Manipulation I could've been annoying to actual supervillians.

[Steeler49er]

Oh.

My.

God.

That was the most adorable thing since Buddy Christ.

Buddy Christ... Xat From Dogma?
Me and my Christian youth group went and saw that more fer S&G and busted out laughing fer 15 min when George Carlin unveiled that... Funny as He!!

Also, the above powers are ones I'd never let be used in a combo, as this is the worst combo a person could have, basically. Atleast with Colour Manipulation I could've been annoying to actual supervillians

HEY!!! I like Color Manip, That's one of the Baddest ars powers in the books.
I had it when I was playing Marvel FASERIP (Called "Coloration" There), and I was the only one on our team that kikt a Sentenals kester when it attacked!
It slammed the whole team, but when it picked me up to crush me in its hands, I turned its hand transparent down to its' "Arm Control Nerve" and turned its' fiber optics BLACK and shot it with my Laser pistol (Laser=Light, light that passed right through the transparent like glass hand)...

I then ran up it's arm and did the same to its head!!
Eat that rest of my team, I'm not so lame now
Color Manipulation ROX!

[Dog_O_War]

the only application of color manipulation I have issue with, that some seem to like, is the 'blindness (no save)' stunt. as a minor power, even as a major power, that's a bit over reaching. that said, the example given was for a power listed in another game system.

addendum: when the players are getting a major can of whoop- arse opened on them (& you dont want to pull the 'all of a sudden, the artist had a heart attack' manuver), & someone pulls a win out of the suppository of elhona, all the better.

Well given that in order to enact the blindness the opponent has to have something already covering their eyes, I don't think it's too bad. I personally like it for humbling and the old switcher'roo.

[Steeler49er]

A laser is more then just light. That's why mirrors won't reflect lasers that are capable of doing damage. Lasers actually BURN material. It's heat that does damage.
In any case, the power description does not allow you to bypass any defense system, so the armor would still be effective.

Incorrect!
Lasers ARE light, and nothing more. Mirrors do reflect lasers, Just not all. Not All lasers are relfected because light has comes in more than one spectrum, so then do lasers. NORMAL mirrors do Not cover every color of the spectrum and that part that doesn't will get burnt and thus crack the whole mirror. Speacialized mirrors are needed for Those types of Lasers to be reflected..

Thus, My Boy had a "Stritly" Visable Light laser in order to avoid such complications in the first place... This of course ment that My laser pistol was Not very powerful (A harsh sunburn) BUT I also decreased the target materials resistance (reflectiveness) to my gun by turning past Pitch Black, thus causing it to become Totally vulnerable to a laser that woulda done minimal damage.

I do know something about what Im talking about. Don't mistake the adjective "Coherrant" that gets attatched to the word "Light" when describing lasers to mean that it is not Still light, it is. It's just a REALLY very focused light is all!

In fact, If the light from ANY source gets too bright, a Common mirror Will break/melt due to imperfections and spectrum vulnerabilitys in it that would Normally not be noticable with lower wattages.

So it was a Very realistic usage of the power and Not at all a stretch.

[Steeler49er]

the only application of color manipulation I have issue with, that some seem to like, is the 'blindness (no save)' stunt. as a minor power, even as a major power, that's a bit over reaching. that said, the example given was for a power listed in another game system.

addendum: when the players are getting a major can of whoop- arse opened on them (& you dont want to pull the 'all of a sudden, the artist had a heart attack' manuver), & someone pulls a win out of the suppository of elhona, all the better.

Well given that in order to enact the blindness the opponent has to have something already covering their eyes, I don't think it's too bad. I personally like it for humbling and the old switcher'roo.

I agree with "Herald" on this. Dog, the power allows you to Directly Colorize the targets eyes, not just their Sunglasses or what not, and THAT is what we're talking about. A.I.R.-Even the Marvel Colorization power had a save for directly effecting a being!

But PB's power is differant in that you can turn a persons skin completely Red, Pink, Blue, Or Transparant (Looses body heat as body generated Lightbased heat/infered no longer stays in the body, it just passes through the layers uneffected>, Black<now body and External heat goes nowhere fast and can detrimentally burn a person from the in and outside in momments>, And Mirror a persons skin by making it relfect All colors<and Not just one color like Red or a few.

If healing powers can be saved against, than Can/Should/MUST this power need one! Otherwise this power goes from being effective/cool/awsome and minor to just downright abusive.

[Dog_O_War]

A laser is more then just light. That's why mirrors won't reflect lasers that are capable of doing damage. Lasers actually BURN material. It's heat that does damage.
In any case, the power description does not allow you to bypass any defense system, so the armor would still be effective.

Incorrect!
Lasers ARE light, and nothing more. Mirrors do reflect lasers, Just not all. Not All lasers are relfected because light has comes in more than one spectrum, so then do lasers. NORMAL mirrors do Not cover every color of the spectrum and that part that doesn't will get burnt and thus crack the whole mirror. Speacialized mirrors are needed for Those types of Lasers to be reflected.

Actually, lasers are wave-lengths of colour, and the wave-length itself is more than capable of accelerating particles it passes through (acceleration is friction, and friction is heat). Lasers cannot pass through things with the same wave-length (colour) as they are, and thus "bounce" off. Even the most inert laser is emmitting a wave-length, though most are not even equal to the amount our own bodies are radiating, or that the atmosphere around us is absorbing.

Thus a person that is transparent will not radiate off more heat that a person who isn't, as transparent /= to the wave-length of heat. A person will become steadily colder though with a mirrored hide as apposed to one with a matte-black colour. This is due to the wave-length in which heat travels. Even then, black will dissipate heat more quickly than a light colour. This is noted in warming and then cooling coloured objects. Black will always cool faster than white, assuming that they are the same tempurature.

Finally, shape has to do with the reflection of light as much as colour/transparency does. For instance, a concave mirror will reflect light in far different patterns than a flat or convex one will. As well, a transparent object then becomes a prism for other non-visible objects. This is because nothing is truely transparent; there will always be molecules to bounce off of. The only truely transparent object is one that isn't there.

Finally, visible light is not moving at a wave-length fast enough to cause damage anyways, so it doesn't matter if an object is transparent. This brings to mind a genius power-usage. Generally a person can only change what is visible; you can turn an object transparent, but being transparent does not fully disguise shape (this is thanks in-part to lack of colours, or shade/darkness - what people call a lack of light). Having zero light means you cannot be transparent; transparency is a "visible" effect.

That genius power-usage is having super-vision into the invisible spectrums of light and typing your colour manipulation power to those colours. an object can be both red and infra-red, as you only need the top layer to be infra-red. This would make the infra-red colour spectrum bounce right off whatever it collided with, effectively neutralizing it. The same can be done with ultra-violet and other harsher wave-lengths, though I'm not 100% most GMs would go for this. Most people would rather keep the game simple, so that only the normal "visible" ranges of colours can be changed.

[Steeler49er]

A laser is more then just light. That's why mirrors won't reflect lasers that are capable of doing damage. Lasers actually BURN material. It's heat that does damage.
In any case, the power description does not allow you to bypass any defense system, so the armor would still be effective.

Incorrect!
Lasers ARE light, and nothing more. Mirrors do reflect lasers, Just not all. Not All lasers are relfected because light has comes in more than one spectrum, so then do lasers. NORMAL mirrors do Not cover every color of the spectrum and that part that doesn't will get burnt and thus crack the whole mirror. Speacialized mirrors are needed for Those types of Lasers to be reflected.

Actually, lasers are wave-lengths of colour, and the wave-length itself is more than capable of accelerating particles it passes through (acceleration is friction, and friction is heat). Lasers cannot pass through things with the same wave-length (colour) as they are, and thus "bounce" off. Even the most inert laser is emmitting a wave-length, though most are not even equal to the amount our own bodies are radiating, or that the atmosphere around us is absorbing.

Thus a person that is transparent will not radiate off more heat that a person who isn't, as transparent /= to the wave-length of heat. A person will become steadily colder though with a mirrored hide as apposed to one with a matte-black colour. This is due to the wave-length in which heat travels. Even then, black will dissipate heat more quickly than a light colour. This is noted in warming and then cooling coloured objects. Black will always cool faster than white, assuming that they are the same tempurature.

Finally, shape has to do with the reflection of light as much as colour/transparency does. For instance, a concave mirror will reflect light in far different patterns than a flat or convex one will. As well, a transparent object then becomes a prism for other non-visible objects. This is because nothing is truely transparent; there will always be molecules to bounce off of. The only truely transparent object is one that isn't there.

Finally, visible light is not moving at a wave-length fast enough to cause damage anyways, so it doesn't matter if an object is transparent. This brings to mind a genius power-usage. Generally a person can only change what is visible; you can turn an object transparent, but being transparent does not fully disguise shape (this is thanks in-part to lack of colours, or shade/darkness - what people call a lack of light). Having zero light means you cannot be transparent; transparency is a "visible" effect.

That genius power-usage is having super-vision into the invisible spectrums of light and typing your colour manipulation power to those colours. an object can be both red and infra-red, as you only need the top layer to be infra-red. This would make the infra-red colour spectrum bounce right off whatever it collided with, effectively neutralizing it. The same can be done with ultra-violet and other harsher wave-lengths, though I'm not 100% most GMs would go for this. Most people would rather keep the game simple, so that only the normal "visible" ranges of colours can be changed.

Das a mouthfull...

[Steeler49er]

Yes I am aware of differing densitys and molicules effects on light, as is the can of how light interacts with glass and crystals (I was kinda hoping yu'd not bring that up, so that I'd not have ta get int a longwinded rehash of what happened between I and "Whiz Kid" oevr this same subject 2 years ago on a prior "Power Combo" thread... That science tech debate took up three pages

But, oh well...

"Here we go Mario "

Yes... You are completely correct about what you said:

Actually, lasers are wave-lengths of colour, and the wave-length itself is more than capable of accelerating particles it passes through (acceleration is friction, and friction is heat). Lasers cannot pass through things with the same wave-length (colour) as they are, and thus "bounce" off. Even the most inert laser is emmitting a wave-length, though most are not even equal to the amount our own bodies are radiating, or that the atmosphere around us is absorbing.

Thus a person that is transparent will not radiate off more heat that a person who isn't, as transparent /= to the wave-length of heat.

A person with a reduced ability (due to full on, multi-spectal/wave-length transparentcy, including the IR end) Will get rapidly cooler due to IR passing "Mosty" unimpeded the through layers of transparent (to IR) skin and Not being able to cause the friction via acceleration ("acceleration is friction, and friction is heat"-Dog).

Inferred passes through mostly unimpeded Transparent skin= Very little friction from wave-length= Greatly reduced molecular/Atomic aggitation= Rapid Heat loss.

A person will become steadily colder though with a mirrored hide as apposed to one with a matte-black colour. This is due to the wave-length in which heat travels.

Yes and no... Yes the Mirror effect will Bounce off/deflect ambient (environmental) IR-& UV light, thus reducing the heat from the suns (or other light producing sources), But Since the Mirror effect is Both ways, IR produced by the Targets body is held in (reflected back in).

Even then, black will dissipate heat more quickly than a light colour. This is noted in warming and then cooling coloured objects. Black will always cool faster than white, assuming that they are the same tempurature.

??? Did you mean to say "White will dissipate heat quicker"...

I gota go, talk later.

[Dog_O_War]

I allow all powers, but require that every power must be random rolled. Simple way to fix this problem.

Wow, sounds like a real fun time
Especially when someone happens to roll clock manipulation and adaptation.

Never go with "random" powers unless the player wants that. Otherwise it is the quickest way to have a game become unsatisfying for a player, or have the game turn into a joke. As much as this sounds like a command I'm giving here, it is meant as friendly advice.

Really? boring to play a ROLE? Well, sucks to be you then, since the people i game with normally like to play a ROLE.

"Random" isn't a role.

[Dog_O_War]

Does the spell invisibility render you incapable of being harmed by lasers in your game? If not, your argument is nonsense.

FIREBALL!

A spell causes an effect that makes you unable to be seen by various methods.
A spell.
Known as a magical ability.
That creates an effect impossible to duplicate via normal physics.

I'll get to his arguement in a second, but really - you cannot compare magic to science. Magic makes no logical sense, and is thus completely capable of doing anything that people and science deem impossible.

Thus a person that is transparent will not radiate off more heat that a person who isn't, as transparent /= to the wave-length of heat.

A person with a reduced ability (due to full on, multi-spectal/wave-length transparentcy, including the IR end) Will get rapidly cooler due to IR passing "Mosty" unimpeded the through layers of transparent (to IR) skin and Not being able to cause the friction via acceleration ("acceleration is friction, and friction is heat"-Dog).

You have to be able to see a spectrum in-order to make it "transparent". As your combo didn't include a supervision that could see into the invisible spectrums, it cannot work.

Why must you be able to see a spectrum? Well you can't very well turn a shirt red if you don't know what red looks like, now can you? Same deal applies to colours you cannot see.

Even then, black will dissipate heat more quickly than a light colour. This is noted in warming and then cooling coloured objects. Black will always cool faster than white, assuming that they are the same tempurature.

??? Did you mean to say "White will dissipate heat quicker"...

No, I meant black. If an object that is white and an object that is black are heated to 100 degrees celcius, the black object will attain that tempurature more quickly than the white object because it does not reflect the warmer wave-lengths. At the same time though, that object is a two-way street; it cannot both absorb and reflect, thus it cannot retain heat. The thought on this is that black is effectively "transparent" to heat, allowing easy access for heat to enter. But that access is also an exit.

Meanwhile white objects reflect heat. But once that heat is inside, it will take longer for that heat to dissipate, as the colour acts as a barrier, or wall. you can climb a wall (the white), but it is difficult. You can also use the door (black), and as such leaving is that much easier.

[Steeler49er]

You have to be able to see a spectrum in-order to make it "transparent". As your combo didn't include a supervision that could see into the invisible spectrums, it cannot work.

Why must you be able to see a spectrum? Well you can't very well turn a shirt red if you don't know what red looks like, now can you? Same deal applies to colours you cannot see.

Ohhhh, I see where your going...
My bad, I forgot to mention that about him.... Gomenasai
You are correct, one of my/him Other peice 'o' equipment was a full spectrum faced mask (Gold and featureless in appearance). His power did work right and was constanly active, which blinded him <often>, so the face mask was used to Ix-ney his blindness. A side benny was that it allowed him to see all wave-lengths....

So Yes, your are right, you can't pull the afforementioned Color Manip stunts without at least Some form of Extra-Wave-Length Vision ability.

Even then, black will dissipate heat more quickly than a light colour. This is noted in warming and then cooling coloured objects. Black will always cool faster than white, assuming that they are the same tempurature.

??? Did you mean to say "White will dissipate heat quicker"...

No, I meant black. If an object that is white and an object that is black are heated to 100 degrees celcius, the black object will attain that tempurature more quickly than the white object because it does not reflect the warmer wave-lengths. At the same time though, that object is a two-way street; it cannot both absorb and reflect, thus it cannot retain heat. The thought on this is that black is effectively "transparent" to heat, allowing easy access for heat to enter. But that access is also an exit.

Meanwhile white objects reflect heat. But once that heat is inside, it will take longer for that heat to dissipate, as the colour acts as a barrier, or wall. you can climb a wall (the white), but it is difficult. You can also use the door (black), and as such leaving is that much easier.

I see your point. However, I've noticed that Black seems to retain heat fer hours, even in cold. I'd think it to not be "effectively transparent to heat", just that when light heats it up (via photons/waves causing molecular&atomic aggitation and energy release on the surface, overtime it passes into subsequent layers and chain reacts causing More heat via more aggitation...

Blah Blah blah... and all taht techno jumbo...

Anywho, sorry I dropped off my above reply earilier, I had to take my daughter to the Hospital and had to cut off what I was saying mid sentence, didn't mean ta sound rude by not replying fully to everything you said, but alla sudden I had to go.
Another time...Night

[NMI]

play nice people.

[Dog_O_War]

"Random" isn't a role.

Really?

You should tell that to Kevin S. then that his game about super heroes where he more than recommends going the random route, isn't a game where you can play a role.

Dude gamed in the 80's. I can't help that he feels that random is the best route to take with character-creation.

That still doesn't change the fact that random isn't a role. You can randomly select a role, but a role can never be "random".

[CCollison]

Ok, I seem to be among a minority on this board, so, for a dose of reality, I have a serious question:

If the rule of “these powers don’t go together” was taken out of the game in the next GM guide/HU3E (not just omitted, but it was discussed in the book that it wasn’t in there), what power combo would you not allow?

I like letting players do whatever they want, Chaos. Life is random, but they also are very much so aware that that rule applies to EVERYONE and Everything.

Note: Whatever they want by the rules set in place, with some very rare exceptions. Players challenging me is good, it makes me raise the bar.

[Steeler49er]

Does the spell invisibility render you incapable of being harmed by lasers in your game? If not, your argument is nonsense.

Or more accurately, do lasers capable of doing DAMAGE ignore and leave unaffected glass? The power states transparent like glass.
If lasers will do damage to transparent glass like material, like the ones used on say, cockpits, then lasers will readily do damage to a transparent material used in making a robot arm. And unless it does enough damage to destroy said armor, it will not pass through to the internal workings.

Well killgore, I hope in the future you can keep the condesending sacasum out of your questions, but to answere your question, Yes and No. I play it both ways for Invisibility. For the Magic spells (both Lesser And superior) you Aways take damage. But for the Super power I let it slide if a play brings it<invulnerability to visable light based attacks> up during creation. Since I consider the HUL super power of "Invisibility" a minor power, ALL invisable light lasers, or lasers suffused with sufficiant amounts of invisible light in it, you'll almost always take damage.

I let players play a Better more "major" version of "Invisibility" in which they are Truly invisible and (again, should they ask fer such at CC) they are logicaly impervious to light based attacks.


The Magic versions I do Not allow for Imperv to Lasers because of how I play the mechanics of the spell. It is NOT anything like Color-Manipulation. The only way I could make it so that Others with "See the Invisible", which inclued the possessor of the power, And make it so that this way the case, was to make it so that
(Mechanics Description): the power works by creating an energy field that coats the recipient. Any light touching the feild becomes "Phased" to matter untill it has passed out the other side... Thus making the recipient invisable... BUT, as is common sci-fi & partly real world physics, when the light hits the feild the photons quantum duplicate themselves, creating a Fasle temporary photon that Does interact with the recipient. This False photon will react with said recipient in everyway as normal, but can Only be seen by those with the ability to either See invisable" or (like Nightlords & spawn) see through illusions.


So, as you can see, your usage of "Invisability" to trump my usage of Color Manipulation simply won't work as, both use Totally Differing methods/mechanics in my games in the first place.
Color Manipulation alters the Matters EM field (reflectivity/absorbantcy/refraction) & general interaction) towards Light & the EMS. So YES, if that aformentioned "Glass cockpit" of yours was Truly transparent (invisible) to light, than a laser would simply pass right through, no harm to glass, and harm the person inside. However, as has been brought up a few times already, GLASS IS NOT TOTALLY TRANSPARENT TO LIGHT & THUS LASERS WHICH ARE LIGHT.


They have dust, blemishes, tarnishing, scuffs and scrapes (as anyone can see is on a rooster pit). Also, just like sand may be reflective towards (light colored) the Visible light spectrum, it still gets VERY hot in the sun light. The reason is because it is Not so towards UV (invisible) light, and thus heats up anyways.

As such, My character "Graffiti" used a powerful Visible light (mostly-some UV & IR) laser, and THEN colored the Hand controls totally Black to those color, which cause ALL that light to effect & Damage said box in seconds. Granted, it took me about a 1/2 melee to the hand totally transparent, but it still worked.

[Steeler49er]

I hope that clears up your conserns.

[Steeler49er]

I hope that clears up your conserns.

Yes, it clears it up. You've made up a complete set of mechanics that contradicts the power right up to justify a power add on that radically alters the power level of the power.

REALLY??
I'd Love for you to point out (First off, which power, Invis or Color Man) Just where it says what the mechanics truly are for either, OR where the frack you came up with this silly consept that it (either of my mechanics for either power) would in ANYWAY conterdict eithers write up ANYWHERE???

You've just made (again for the 4th post now) a whole bunch of baseless accusations based on what YOU seem to think others motivations are And to what we are all thinking, and you've pegged me wrong 3X's now on it. Back up you claimes (with the books and or Physics)
Cuz you just arbitrarily saying "Your wrong" ain't enough! If I'm wrong than, you need to actually point out where in the books or in Physics <perfering both> I and others are wrong and not just making up or giving us Your interpritaion of the rules, otherwise, right or wrong, we'll all just keep on thinking this way.

However, as has been brought up a few times already, GLASS IS NOT TOTALLY TRANSPARENT TO LIGHT & THUS LASERS WHICH ARE LIGHT.

Not sure what you where trying to say here, but it contradicts your statement about the power rendering matter incapable of being harmed by lasers, as the power specifically states transparent like glass.

It contradicts nothing Dude, you've just got a fixational HANG-UP on that "Like glass" portion of the text!!!

Alot of Things in This real world are transparent "Like Glass" and yet AREN"T. Plex-Glass, Acrylics, Quart, Diamond, Aerogels, Polycarbonate, and... for you Trekkies out there, Transparent Aluminum... All do (or would do if T.A. wer real) react differantly to light and the EMS!!!

Palladium was only making a generalization by picking ONE of those... They went with Glass because we'd all know what they wer talking about you silly! Now get off your selfrightious High chair and quit thinking your the palladium books over lord of rules and Quit taking offence at peoples creative uses of powers... What WE do with our powers has No effect on you, Nor does it harm you in the slightest And That's what the books are about and what the powers are there for in the first place...
"To use Creativily and for fun"-Kevin Siembieda
... You know, the point of ROLE PLAYING.

Lastly, In case you've not heard, I am describing my creative power usage from a completely separate system "Marvel FASERIP"! It's NOT the same power, nor did I say it was, it was just an example of creative stuff I've done that others simply didn't think of doing themselve. I'm sure Others have done crud that I haven't thought of with that power as well. The mechanics description I gave was Exactly the one they gave in the book. So NO, I broke No rules nor ment to.

FYI-since PB NEVER gave mechanics on thier powers nor spells, EVERYONE is free to make them up... So says the books under "Your Books, Your rules". NOTHING I did was overpowered in the slightest, your "no you ca't do that" button is just set way to darn high.

[Steeler49er]

However, as has been brought up a few times already, GLASS IS NOT TOTALLY TRANSPARENT TO LIGHT & THUS LASERS WHICH ARE LIGHT.

Not sure what you where trying to say here, but it contradicts your statement about the power rendering matter incapable of being harmed by lasers, as the power specifically states transparent like glass.

On another point... How can you say that your "Not sure what you where trying to say here" and then TELL ME that it contradicts my prior statements...
Either you know what I ment or you don't and you shouldn't there for (by logic) say you Know it to "contradict".

Your sounding like that dimwit Matt Damon when he ripped on Sarah Palin! He as well openned up with an "I have no knowledge about what you stand for you or the subject matter but I'm gona make up what to hate about you" kinda statement, than called HER an idiot.

That's the void of the blackest cave calling a dark bule ink stain black!
Donna help your case out one iota.

[NMI]

Play nice!

[Steeler49er]

Someone needs to remember that lasers are NOT sentient. Meaning, they cannot be tricked. They go in a straight line and hit anything they come in contact with... the color of said object means squat to a laser. Much like if you are throwing handfuls of rocks, there is a good chance that someone who is invisible or see-through will get hit by a rock.

The only way a laser would go through someone is if they were insubstantial, which is NOT apart of the Invisibility nor Color Change Powers.

Sheesh.

Wow!!
Not meaning to sound mean but, with the exception about light not being sentient Your dead wrong about everything you just said.
Light (lasers-same thing) interact with matter depending on Frequency-Amplitude. Some colors of light pass through matter with out effecting it at all (IE Radio Wave light passes through Brick like as though it wer invisable, while they are opaque to visable light) or (Microwave Light which passes through Many types of matter, but is Totaly stopped by Metal).
How EM waves interact with matter depends on the energy of the wave and the type of material.

So YES Some colors of light does pass through Some colors of matter, but won't pass through Others. When you use the power of Color Manipulation ala-Palladium Books, you are ALTERING that paticular piece of matters interaction with paticular Colors of light so that it Now matches another. So if you alter metals EM field to match that of certain ceramics a microwave light (laser) will pass through it AND this is what is happening to matter when you make it Transparent with this power, said Opaque stone wall is now made Transparent to the smack of color-wave-lenght of light we call "The Visable Light spectrum.
The above "Like Glass" forms of matter (Plex-Glass, Acrylics, Quart, Diamond, Aerogels, Polycarbonate) each may let visable light through them similar to glass, but some simply won't let Other colors through.
For instance, one type of aerogel that is (just like glass) transparent to most everything glass is, may let Other ADDITIONAL colors of light in that glass may not, and conversly glass may do the same.
So amsterdam, your assumption that ALL colors of lasers interact with all colors of matter the same way is Not correct. Even PB knows this (check out Aliens Unlimited for their rules on Microwave light lasers and their effects on paticular types of matters).

As to Invisiblility, if light passes through you (say the yellow light reflected of a [color=#FFBF00]Yield sign, or red light reflected off a stop sign) and others can see it, then by default that color of light can Not harm said invisibile person, meaning a visable light laser trip wire will have no effect either, but an IR one will to Lesser INVIS because lesser (Unlike Greater) is NOT invisable to UV or IR light.

One colored laser will work, and another will not... As YOU (amsterdam) put it so well, lasers are NOT sentient, and as such, They will Not adapt/change color simply to Always do damage. Only Variable light lasers-see (Rifts Triax tech) can do this, and only because the Gun, and Not the Lasers, ARE smart.[/color]


Lasers do NOT do damage like a rock! They are Not (despite what many here on the boards seem to think) doing damage because of speed like a sand blaster! It is not the partical Impact, but rather their paticular energy feild causing disruptions in matter that do the trick.




Transparency: In optics, transparency (also called pellucidity) is the material property of allowing light to pass through
-wikipedia


Websters Dictionary
Main Entry: trans·par·ent
Pronunciation: \tran(t)s-ˈper-ənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin transparent-, transparens, present participle of transparēre to show through, from Latin trans- + parēre to show oneself
Date: 15th century
1 a (1): having the property of transmitting light without appreciable scattering so that bodies lying beyond are seen clearly : pellucid (2): allowing the passage of a specified form of radiation (as X-rays or ultraviolet light) b: fine or sheer enough to be seen through : diaphanous

[Glistam]

I thought lasers were not visible light, but instead were visible only because they ionize the air they travel through? Another interesting contradiction is that air is "transparent" to light yet lasers seem to affect it too. It's an interesting thought for an application of the power Color Manipulation. I personally wouldn't allow it.

[Steeler49er]

Transparency: In optics, transparency (also called pellucidity) is the material property of allowing light to pass through
-wikipedia


Websters Dictionary
Main Entry: trans·par·ent
Pronunciation: \tran(t)s-ˈper-ənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin transparent-, transparens, present participle of transparēre to show through, from Latin trans- + parēre to show oneself
Date: 15th century
1 a (1): having the property of transmitting light without appreciable scattering so that bodies lying beyond are seen clearly : pellucid (2): allowing the passage of a specified form of radiation (as X-rays or ultraviolet light) b: fine or sheer enough to be seen through : diaphanous

Enough of your words... show proof.

??? If the above ignored two examples of Proof (Dictionary & Wiki) aren't enough, than at this point I should just maybe instruct you that you should do some research on the subject yourself.
IE-Learn some Physics
There IS about 100,000 papers out there on the subject matter yah know.

I thought lasers were not visible light, but instead were visible only because they ionize the air they travel through? Another interesting contradiction is that air is "transparent" to light yet lasers seem to affect it too. It's an interesting thought for an application of the power Color Manipulation. I personally wouldn't allow it.

For the most part you are correct Glistam.

To explain as to light passing through air and heating it up, again it should be noticed that not all colors of light emitted from (lets say) the Sun, pass through the air unmolested! Some colors of light are affected by the air of the atmosphere (Which you know) and that is because the air is Not made up of just One element (atomics).

[Steeler49er]

Alot of Things in This real world are transparent "Like Glass" and yet AREN"T. Plex-Glass, Acrylics, Quart, Diamond, Aerogels, Polycarbonate, and... for you Trekkies out there, Transparent Aluminum... All do (or would do if T.A. wer real) react differantly to light and the EMS!!!

And all of them take damage from lasers actually capable of doing any damage. I've seen, IN THE REAL WORLD, laser cutters go thru plexi-glass and acrylics.

Correct and incorrect at the same time.
Lasers capable of do ing damage are generally using the Invisible light spectrum to do their damages because This/those colors of light generaly have an adverse reaction to many/most forms of matter. However, a visable light laser tunned to the right frequency could be just as effective.
Since most of the Visable light spectrum is reflected of a huge chunk of the matter that exists in the world (with notable exeptions of transparent & black materials), it is Ideal for using in the comprehension of things/objects by organic life forms (IE your human Eyes). Visable light is generally very useful therefor.

But the same can Not be said for an equal amount space taken up in another portion of the spectrum (lets say UV-Light fer instance) which operates at "7.5 x 1014Hz to 3 x 1017Hz", while visable operates in a VERY narrow margin of "380 to 750 nm", but because UV interacts with many types of matter so badly, it is Not good for vision.

Chickens use UV light to see, but in responce to this they forgo seeing many colors of visable light and thus see the world in a Very Monochomatic way, thus missing out on seeing what we see.

This all means that a single type of damaging laser (as you put it) may effect one type of acrylic one way, but an acrylic with a differing chemical compossition will be affected another way...
OR...In oother words
A laser that may Cut through one type of acrylic (has a hard time getting through it and thus aggitates it to the point of melting) may find that it has an Easier time getting through an acrylic that is made differantly, even though they may, on cursory examination, appear to be equally transparent.


What makes a damaging laser most noticable is generally its High wattage, But the Right frequency can be very weak in comparison and Still cut something because it is just the right color of light to affect a paticular type of matter.

OR... One type of matter (say Gold, Iron, Polycarbonate... we'll say Gold for arguments sake) is affected by Red visable light one way, Blue light another, Infer light another way, radio wave yet another, and cosmic wave yet a 5th way...
Some colors are absorbed (blue lets say), others like Red and Inferred-<heat> are highly reflected meaning it takes alotta Infered to heat it up, and some cosmic waves of light will simply pass right on through the Gold bar without even effect it in the slightest (they are Phased towards each other-invisible) and thus regardless of wattage, will not harm the gold.


If you change the EM feild of matter, you change it's effective Color and thus its effects on a paticular Or large number of colors of light. This is why gold is a good reflector of heat and is used by NASA on there Helmets Visors and LEM.

[Steeler49er]

FYI
Sorry Killgore (aka the guy with the most wicked sounding name on the boards) fer Flamming you back. I'm pretty sure that I could have replyed with much more politeness.


But I would like it to be known that there is no attempt on my part to Rules Lawyer this power to get more out of it than it intended. If I was going fer a stricked Bypass of armor trick, I'd Just Take "Transmutation" Instead, since you can simply turn someones armor into Molecular Acid (think everones favorite Xenomorphs), or into nerve toxin, or Air, or silly putty if I was going for a legal powers abuse.

Color Manipulating an object transparent I'm sure would take at least a melee to do and Still requires that you could see or be aware of the other spectrums you Also wish to make the matter transparent to. "Transmutation" is instant, Much more damaging and can do many more things...
I chose Color-Manip because I'll liked to see what I could Legally do.
Please not that the author simply may never have likely thought/realized that colormanip could do this, just like PB never realized in the beginging that someone with ShapeShifting could form a Tail, but in later years it was added.

Bend light Never had the Blank spot ability, that is, untill players came up with that paticular stunt as well... Than PB added it to the books nearly 20years latter.

So just because the books don't specifically state every-little-thing you can do with a given power, or just because a given author doesn't realize his/her power can in fact do something very benificial that they didn't realize, doesn't mean that it can't.
Remember Ice Man... Alot of us realized what he was Really capable of doing years before the authors over at Marvel figured it out.

Ice Man is Made of Ice... That moves... No bones nor muscles etc. So the question was "How Does he move after all?" Well, the only was is that when he molecularly converts his atoms into ICE, it is given that he must temporarly liquify Ice mass out of the way and refreeze it into a new shape (bending an arm, turning his head). And to move it would mean that he can Mold/animate Ice/water. To do this w/o organs means he (his conscience) is made of energy and is able to affect atoms (transmute flesh to frozen water), Convert Energy to other states (inferred Heat radiation to harmless blue visable light-Ice beams which pass through ice and water easily), and cause water molecule to be molded, drawn to him over distances, and coalesce/separte (matter animation).

All that could be done by simply being a Living matrix of energy (aka a soul and spirit-Soul is the energy brains & spirit is the energy Body). This ment since he had no bones nor muscles, he was causing molecular bonds to tighten and relax-which would simulate the appearance of Muscles. Meaning that since a soul and spirit (as well as water) have No true shape, than surely he could bend his arms in Any direction... Or take on Any shape.

All he really had to do was learn how his powers worked (their physics) and realize this potential. It took him MANY year to do this because he was an idiot. It took white Queen Emma Frost brusing his ego before he pushed his powers to do what they really could do, and he STIL hasn't truly realized his fullest potential.

►But now he can create huge amounts of Ice in ANY shape, including Ice armor & weapons.
►Change his own shape into ANY other
►Harden Ice by pulling the molecular bond even tighter
►Regenerate from death of most all of his mass (possesses New water to remake his body)
►Grow to freakish size and strength by sucking up bodys of water
►Draw water from any near-by locations, including other beings (turning them to dust)
►Freeze other solid at distance by Freezing the water in their bodies
►Turn into water and Steam/Mist
►Transmute Other matter (Clothes & Items) into water for transport (Which means that in time, he will be able to convert Large amounts of Any type of matter (and again, in time, possable ambient incidental energys) into water, meaning he can never run out of water... And in time he'll learn to convert other Living masses as well into water for transport. And since he can turn them Back into their original forms of matter, nothing realy is saying that he can not turn them into ANY type of matter he has the patter of memorized. Which means he can Then turn water into ANY form of matter in Any type of shape!!!
(And because of this potential, the Peeps over at Marvel have Now classified Ice Man as an Omega class mutant)
►He is immortal because he is unaffected in his Energy/Ice state by the things that effect the normal man, No organs to be effected by poison & toxins, nor any need for food, air or Drink (hey, hes water). And he can always return/transmute his Ice form back into his human form because it is a shape tat he's got memmorized.
►Sence heat. His powers to control/ convert Heat/light energys into other forms mean that he must also become aware of said enrgy inorder to reach out and touch/convert it into another color. As such, he can feel other body Inferred heat at great range (as seen in his fight with a then Invisable Onslaught), meaning it is hard to sneak up on him.
►Transmute light into new "Other energys" so as to remove heat from objects. Sure he can turn IR into hramless (To Ice) blues light, but can he do the reverse? Does he have the ability to change IR into Other colors of the Light spectrum like, green, yellow, purple, Pink or UV, radio wave or microwave...? It's possable... Difficult but possible.

And all that happened because the authors Listened to OTHER readers and or read some science books. So you never know what you can do untill you try.

[Steeler49er]

WOULDN'T THAT KILL YOU?? ... Alot?

I mean, just rentry alone would sting, but the sudden SmAcK... If you threw in Hyperdencity at the last seconds than, sure I'd "Buy that fer a dollar", and it would be devistating to boot. It take Forever to reach those heights, and the CS robo's radar would pick it up, giving it time to move and or (once it realizes that your a guided missle) to shoot at you! As such this stunt is balanced and fair.

But w/o something like Hyper-D, you'd take damage as well.

[NMI]

Once again, I will say chill out.

[Iczer]

IIRC Lasers do their damage by emitting heat, or more precisely produce heat via the concentrated light.

Consequentially,as it is heat, an intervening barrier, transperant to visible wavelengths, would still provide a molecular impediment to radiated heat.

Now I know Palladium seems to render light energy and heat energy as seperate beasts, even if related, but i would suggest anyone trying to make a physics argument on the matter should heed the above.

Batts

[Steeler49er]

You are the one who is claiming that Lasers can go through transparent materials in HU (without knowing the type of light of the Laser Weapons, though it would more than likely need to be a type that will bounce off Glitterboy Armour, but for that, we need to know exactly how Glitterboy Armour is made and works) so I am asking for the proof that YOU have that makes you think thusly.

No, again I'm saying that Some Lasers go through Some Transparent, while others do not. This is my on going point.
And to "Not knowing the Frequ", I did in fact know the Frequ of my Visable light laser that my character was using. I've made no ascertions that you can use this power This way with either ease, nor with garrintied effects. To Ever use this power "properly", you Must have sufficant knowledge of Both "Physics", and Material sciences. I never said this was easy, but since My character only had this one power, I had to know how to be smart with and in using it.
When you Only have one power and everyone else has the ability to shoot & control Fire, turn to metal, Mega strength and teleportation... You've GOT to get street & academic smart fast, otherwise your gonna be one dead Mutie (Think Jews in Germany Dead).

I was fighting fer my life in the game.

As again to how lasers work, they work & do damage just like all Light, based on Wattage and Wave length. When a paticular color of light strikes a type of matter with the correct EM field, it disrupts/aggitates that atoms/molecules and causes them to give off additional energys... IF that EM field is differing even a little bit, it can cause that same paticular light-wave of color to be; Deflected w/o harm or aggitation, or simplypass on through with out Any effects what so ever (The matter and light are effectively intangable to each-other).

I would suggest anyone trying to make a physics argument on the matter should read the above.