Super Ability Origin vs. Negate Super Powers

[socom242]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

[Daniel Stoker]

I think the only way you can strip a mystically bestowed character of his powers is via anti-magic cloud. Now if you want to have Negate Powers from a mystically bestowed character effect other mystically bestowed then I can see the logic, but I don’t think rule wise there is anything to back that up.


Daniel Stoker

[Nekira Sudacne]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

[Sentinel]

While not a canon answer, my method for dealing with the super-abilities possessed by Mystic Bestowed (if any) is to make them subject to both Anti-Magic Cloud, and Negate Magic, as well as any Invocations that made sense conditionally (Dispel Magic Barriers vs. Create Force Field or Force Aura, for example).

[JTwig]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

Does this apply to aliens who' race naturally possess a set of powers? I thought that I read some where that their powers were a natural part of them, like our five senses, and were affected by the Negate Superpowers power.

[Sentinel]

One of the options for super-powered aliens is to have powers as an intrinsic part of their racial abilities, and these are not subject to Negate Super Abilities.

[socom242]

One of the options for super-powered aliens is to have powers as an intrinsic part of their racial abilities, and these are not subject to Negate Super Abilities.

WOW!!! What a loophole!

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm running a HU campaign and one of my players is actually a Mystic Weapon Weilder with Karmic Power! So I was looking into Negating it, and I just wanted to cover the bases. Another thought just poped up Would he have the powers when he transforms into "normal" mode? Or would all the powers/abilities only be used in "hero" form only?

[Sentinel]

One of the options for super-powered aliens is to have powers as an intrinsic part of their racial abilities, and these are not subject to Negate Super Abilities.

WOW!!! What a loophole!

It's there, but the balance-point is that you get fewer powers to select with that option.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm running a HU campaign and one of my players is actually a Mystic Weapon Weilder with Karmic Power! So I was looking into Negating it, and I just wanted to cover the bases. Another thought just poped up Would he have the powers when he transforms into "normal" mode? Or would all the powers/abilities only be used in "hero" form only?

When not transformed, one has no access to those powers.

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Preach It! Karmic Power is the worst ever!

[Nekira Sudacne]

One of the options for super-powered aliens is to have powers as an intrinsic part of their racial abilities, and these are not subject to Negate Super Abilities.

WOW!!! What a loophole!

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm running a HU campaign and one of my players is actually a Mystic Weapon Weilder with Karmic Power! So I was looking into Negating it, and I just wanted to cover the bases. Another thought just poped up Would he have the powers when he transforms into "normal" mode? Or would all the powers/abilities only be used in "hero" form only?

all powers granted by the mystic weapon/bestowed ONLY apply in transformed state. otherwise your 100% average (except for the possibility of natural extrodanary attributes)

[Sentinel]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Preach It! Karmic Power is the worst ever!

Everybody duck: The meteors are coming.
Nekira never agrees with me so readily.
It's the Coming Of The Rifts, I'm telling Ya!

[socom242]

I trust you are just trying to negate the Karmic powers that the mystic weapon bestows upon the hero rather than trying to negate the powers of the weapon itself??

Yeah, I'm just trying to Negate his Luck when he's in hero mode with the weapon.

Another question...if someone takes the weapon away, they no longer have the abilites the weapon instills on them? What a handicap!!! I dunno, I was under the impression that the "process" of gaining the mystic weapon also "bestowed" the powers to the person, but they can only command it when they've "transformed" into hero form.

I wanna try to do this fair and square. Otherwise, someone with Telekinesis or Disarm or a really high PS can just yank it away.

Whaddya'll think?

[Stattick]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Preach It! Karmic Power is the worst ever!

Everybody duck: The meteors are coming.
Nekira never agrees with me so readily.
It's the Coming Of The Rifts, I'm telling Ya!

I just agreed with her in a post last night... I never agree with her.

Ok, obviously Neky's been replaced with an evil... (good?)... doppleganger! I must have slept through dark day...

And yeah, Karmic sucks. Oh crap. I just did it again.

BTW, I don't think winged flight should be able to be negated. Or water breathing if the character has gills. Assuming on both of these that they only have one form.

[Sentinel]

Nekiras' alignment has never been definitively established as Evil, whether Diabolic, Miscreat or Aberrant.

BTW, I don't think winged flight should be able to be negated. Or water breathing if the character has gills. Assuming on both of these that they only have one form.

I tend to take this situationally myself.

If the character is a native water breather like Sub-Mariner, then no, Negation is not effective against him, or other Marvel Atlanteans (which is in line with the canon ruling about not affecting aliens with Natural Super Abilities).
If the character has water breathing as a power but is not an Aquatic character, then yes, Negation can and does affect them.

Wings are a tad trickier: generally, I take the position that Negation is (temporarily) inhibiting the bodys' ability to control the extraneous limb (wings, in this case), thus preventing or at least severely restricting flight (in the case of the wings being temporary, they simply fade away for the duration).
The character can glide however, if the wings are in fact still present.
Of course, characters like Lyn-Srial, Phoenixi, Baal-Rogs, Dragons, and other creatures to whom wings are a natural ability are immune to the effect.

[Nekira Sudacne]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Preach It! Karmic Power is the worst ever!

Everybody duck: The meteors are coming.
Nekira never agrees with me so readily.
It's the Coming Of The Rifts, I'm telling Ya!

I just agreed with her in a post last night... I never agree with her.

Ok, obviously Neky's been replaced with an evil... (good?)... doppleganger! I must have slept through dark day...

And yeah, Karmic sucks. Oh crap. I just did it again.

BTW, I don't think winged flight should be able to be negated. Or water breathing if the character has gills. Assuming on both of these that they only have one form.

and I agree, wingled flight or underwater breathing shouldn't be negated.

Here's how I generally see things: Mutations that affect the _Natural_ state of your body cannot be negated, but superpowers that produce unnatural effects can be.

in my opinion, none of the extrodnary attribute powers can be negated--they represent a mutation that gives a _natural_ increase. So Extrodnary MA cannot be negated. However, devine aura produces an unnatural effect, and can be negated.

other things I don't let be negated are underwater breathing, winged/mega winged flight, multi-tasking, lightning reflexes, and such.

I'm still undecided if I should lump Invunerability in this catagory of "unnegatable" powers. on the one hand, dispite Gomens claims it's not an APS power and is always active, which means it's most probablly the natural state of your body. on the other hand, not taking any damage whatsoever from physical attacks clearly defies all laws of physics, and thus is unnatural.

for aliens with powers, it's an even simpler one. They are alien, so powers that would qualify as unnatural even for us, could be explained away as natural though some other process for them.

[Sentinel]

I think a better term to use instead of "natural" is "racial".

For Mystique, it is "natural" that she change shapes: it's her mutant power, but it can be negated, as it is not normal for all humans, nor all mutants either.

Skrulls however can change shapes as a racial characteristic: it would require something that affected all Skrulls on a cellular level to negate their ability to polymorph (which means if they were Palladium characters, they would be impervious to Negate Super Abilities).
For Skrulls, shapechanging is not a Super-Ability: it is a racial characteristic like gills on a shark, wings on a dragonfly, or tusks on an elephant (which to us would be Underwater Abilities, Insect Flight, or Body Weapons).

[NMI]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

with that argument would you allow Negate Super Powers to affect someone with powers from mechanical sources such as the OCC Super Invention?

[Tinker Dragoon]

Another question...if someone takes the weapon away, they no longer have the abilites the weapon instills on them? What a handicap!!! I dunno, I was under the impression that the "process" of gaining the mystic weapon also "bestowed" the powers to the person, but they can only command it when they've "transformed" into hero form.

The super power or spellcasting abilities granted by the weapon are not dependent on it, and can be used even when the weapon is not in hand. However, if the wielder and weapon can be kept apart for 72 hours, the wielder reverts to being a powerless mortal until the weapon is recovered.

[socom242]

However, if the wielder and weapon can be kept apart for 72 hours, the wielder reverts to being a powerless mortal until the weapon is recovered.

Oh, yeah! I forgot about that part

[MrTwist]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

As a GM, I would allow a Mystically Bestowed to be immune to Negate Super Powers. Although, Anti-Magic Cloud or any other kind of magic limiting/negation spells would apply. The powers are the same as abilities granted by spells; able to be disrupted through proper spells.

I've always seen Mystically Bestowed as magical abilities. It's not some quirk of DNA because of birth. It's not some physiological change due to chemicals. It's a magical ability that approximates a super power. It is limited as per magic spells, so Negate Super Abilities does not apply.

Alien powers fall into a couple categories for me. If it makes sense, ok. I could understand hardened skin, unbreakable skeleton, claws, and enhanced senses. Those could be characteristics that are a natural part of physiology as I understand. Not Reduce Objects or Magnetism.

With Aliens, physical modification powers are ok. Changing the laws of physics due to a power is considered extraordinary. Blur might be natural. Underwater abilities might be natural. Sense Death and Destruction would be affected by Negate Super Powers.

Just me though.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

with that argument would you allow Negate Super Powers to affect someone with powers from mechanical sources such as the OCC Super Invention?

disrupts the electric current?

[Sentinel]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

with that argument would you allow Negate Super Powers to affect someone with powers from mechanical sources such as the OCC Super Invention?

disrupts the electric current?

There already powers for that.
Catastrophic Systems Failure, for example.
I can see the basic Concept of a character who can negate almost any sort of power, but I would want them to use up all their power selections in doing so, not make the one power too usoform.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

with that argument would you allow Negate Super Powers to affect someone with powers from mechanical sources such as the OCC Super Invention?

disrupts the electric current?

There already powers for that.
Catastrophic Systems Failure, for example.
I can see the basic Concept of a character who can negate almost any sort of power, but I would want them to use up all their power selections in doing so, not make the one power too usoform.

eh? why not? one seems plenty.

[Sentinel]

The argument goes something like this.

The Negate Super Powers ability only affects "super abilities" and is useless against magic, psionics, mech abilites or physical training/skills. Fine, but what if someone was Mystically Bestowed with Super Powers. Could someone who was a Mutant w/Negate take away a Mystic Bestowedw/Invunerability? The argument is that since a Mystic bestowed hero's powers come from a source of magic, then a Mutant with Negate cannot negate that power because it's magical in nature or origin.

If so, the only way that could work is to have a Mystic Bestowed villain with Negate Super Powers. And, if so, would you logically only have it work on magic as well as the "regular" super powers? Or would you limit it?

Comments, theories, input...please

Negate super powers negates super powers, regardless of the source of the super power. yes, they can negate magiaclly induced super powers but not actual magic spells. why? because one is a super power, the other is a direct magical effect. the magic of mystically bestowed temoporarly alters their genes to give them the super power, and negate super power counters that, NOT the magic of mystiaclly bestowed, sinse the other attribute and SDC bonuses will remain.

with that argument would you allow Negate Super Powers to affect someone with powers from mechanical sources such as the OCC Super Invention?

disrupts the electric current?

There already powers for that.
Catastrophic Systems Failure, for example.
I can see the basic Concept of a character who can negate almost any sort of power, but I would want them to use up all their power selections in doing so, not make the one power too usoform.

eh? why not? one seems plenty.

Cuts down on power mongering.

It's the same rationale behind making a player have to select Impervious to magic, instead of just modifying Invulnerability.
Or making Lightning Reflexes and Speed Tasking separate from EXT or Sonic Speed (which I completely agree with).

So, if player wants to be Mr. Negates everything, then he will have to suck up the appropriate power selections to do so.

[Marcantony]

Here's a question..

If a character selects Impervious to Magic and has for example a magically powered Energy Expulsion power would the Anti-Magic Cloud affect either of the powers?

No, although I would rule that anyone immune to magic also cant use it. Thus you have total immunity, to both harmful and beneficial magic.

And I agree that Negate Powers cannot affect mystically bestowed ones because they are mystical abilities not powers.

[Sentinel]

Personally, my take on Impervious to Magic and Spell Casting is that while you may be immune to the effects of magic cast by others at you, you could still cast invocations at someone else.
You will however, hate the fact that you can no longer grant yourself Superhuman Strength, or become a Giant (Size of the Behemoth), or Fly As The Eagle. But, you would still be able to Armourbane someone else, or cast a Call Lightning, or drop a Meteor, or whisper a Deathword at someone else. After all, you are only immune to the effect: not the knowledge.

[Sir_Spirit]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Except that No one in comix has that power.
Longshot has superluck, wich has nothing to do with Karmic Power.

Luck=/=Karma.

[Sentinel]

On a personal note, I have always despised Karmic Power, and the characters who possess it in comics.

Except that No one in comix has that power.
Longshot has superluck, wich has nothing to do with Karmic Power.

Luck=/=Karma.

Re-Read Justice Machine: Talisman has the very power. In fact, Karmic Power was written into HU for the purpose of adapting Talisman in the Justice Machine supplement.
I will suggest that there are other characters I am thinking of whom you aren't aware of.

[Snowtiger]

For Mystique, it is "natural" that she change shapes: it's her mutant power, but it can be negated, as it is not normal for all humans, nor all mutants either.

*Imagines someone using NSP on Mystique while she is impersonating a senator while giving a speech.*

Well, there's an interesting thought, that could lead to senators utilizing NSP using guards in case some mutant insurrectionist shapeshifters try to seize power.

[Sentinel]

For Mystique, it is "natural" that she change shapes: it's her mutant power, but it can be negated, as it is not normal for all humans, nor all mutants either.

*Imagines someone using NSP on Mystique while she is impersonating a senator while giving a speech.*

Well, there's an interesting thought, that could lead to senators utilizing NSP using guards in case some mutant insurrectionist shapeshifters try to seize power.

They'd still have to contend with Mages, Dragons, Demons (like the Raksasha), Aliens, and robotic doppelgangers.

[Sentinel]

For Mystique, it is "natural" that she change shapes: it's her mutant power, but it can be negated, as it is not normal for all humans, nor all mutants either.

*Imagines someone using NSP on Mystique while she is impersonating a senator while giving a speech.*

Well, there's an interesting thought, that could lead to senators utilizing NSP using guards in case some mutant insurrectionist shapeshifters try to seize power.

They'd still have to contend with Mages, Dragons, Demons (like the Raksasha), Aliens, and robotic doppelgangers.

Don't forget Mr A.N.Other, human disguise expert..

Oh, and the Immortal as well has shapechanging.

The Natural Genius with Disguise at 156 %.

Palladium Changlings.

Shapers.

Illusionists.

Ectoplasmic disguise.

[Snowtiger]

I'd hate to be the mundane world leader in whatever universe you have all those grouped in a folder marked "Evil organizations trying to seize power and rule the world."

luckily I'm not.

[Sentinel]

I'd hate to be the mundane world leader in whatever universe you have all those grouped in a folder marked "Evil organizations trying to seize power and rule the world."

luckily I'm not.

Not all of those archetypes are "evil".
But, select individuals and groups among them can be.