Lenwë Ancalímon wrote:Has anyone house-ruled the cyclones to be slightly inferior to what's printed in the books?
*snicker*
Probably the most contentious issue on these forums is the Cyclone and its armour values compared to other mecha. Yes, I have seen the Cyclone reduced to about 1/8th its armour, which is about where it should be (along with CVR-3 & ASC armour/shields being reduced considerably as well). It should be rethought as it IS a problem. The Cyclones as originally presented were the ultimate Munchkin mecha with more armour than all Zentraedi mecha, the Logan, most ASC Battloids, most Bioroids and Invid mecha, and equivalent to the VF-1 Valkyrie in terms of survivability.
Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations. I would hit that so hard that whoever could pull me out would be the true-born king of England. ~ Mark Hall Novastar only speaks the truth. ~ Brandon Aten, aka The Galactus Kid
Lenwë Ancalímon wrote: Has anyone house-ruled the cyclones to be slightly inferior to what's printed in the books?
yes
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
Lenwë Ancalímon wrote:There are scenes where Rand blasts Armored Scouts repeatedly with his EP-37 with no effect. In the RPG, a cyclone is a force to be reckoned with. In the series, they were mostly used as a distraction force to aid the alpha or to run away.
And yet, there are scenes when Rand uses his EP-37 to take out a Pincer Command Unit, all on his own in one or two shots. And then we have Scott and the never-ending missle supply for his GR-97s and Lancer with his 103s...
Given the wildly differing stats suggested by the anime due to the demands of the plot and/or the unwillingness of the writers to actually try to keep a standard throughout the show, I think the RPG did a pretty decent job of balancing "anime correctness", game balance, and playability.
If the Cyclone were composed of paper, then a few shots from a moderatly powerful mecha (perhaps even the lowly Enforcer or the aforementioned Armoured Scout) and whoops! Time to make a new character, sorry 'bout that. If you make the weapons too under-powered, then combat would take even longer than it does now.
Could it be balanced a little better? Sure. But if you go too far in making it whimpy, it just wouldn't be that much fun to play. Same thing if you go too far in making it too strong; it just wouldn't be fun and it would be horribly unbalancing.
My cyclones are pretty much as written, but with a main body of 100-150 MDC. The Tornado BBS remains the same but has an autododge added to it.
I'd get up in the morning and watch the sun rise over the yardarm of my sky-ship as the sails billowed in the breeze and the land slid by 300-odd metres below. I'd grasp the mahogany ship's wheel, turn her nose a few points back onto the line, and feel pity for all those poor bastards below who have to work for a living. - My idea of the good life in Rifts.
Robotech_Master wrote:Just about the only time we see a Destroid not get destroyed is the time when Rick Hunter pilots one. (Which, by the rules of the RPG, he shouldn't have been able to do, but that's another nitpick.)
Actually that is a fallacy: A first generation RDF VF Pilot could take with his other skills, the ability to pilot a destroid with full mecha combat abilities.
While I am all for one hit kills, I am not for cinematic battles.
The Robotech RPG should be presented as a War themed RPG, not an anime themed RPG.
One way to fix the MDC system is simply drop it to 1 MDC=50 SDC, and make a single .50cal/12.7mm round do 1 MDC of damage, with all the other types of cannon/rifle rounds doing more (or less) MDC depending on their size.
Next using common sense burst from some rifle round should do a little bit of MDC.
Tiree wrote:
Robotech_Master wrote:Just about the only time we see a Destroid not get destroyed is the time when Rick Hunter pilots one. (Which, by the rules of the RPG, he shouldn't have been able to do, but that's another nitpick.)
Actually that is a fallacy: A first generation RDF VF Pilot could take with his other skills, the ability to pilot a destroid with full mecha combat abilities.
I DON'T allow VT pilots to take Full Combat in any other mecha (even the Cyclone) unless they use two skill selections.
Yes a VT pilot can operate a Destroid (it can't much different then a VT in Battloid mode) without the piloting skill and the same is true for a Destroid pilot who is in a Battloid mode VT.
But in both cases fancy maneuvers can not be made, no Initiative, and only H2H bonuses can be used..
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
jedi078 wrote:While I am all for one hit kills, I am not for cinematic battles.
The Robotech RPG should be presented as a War themed RPG, not an anime themed RPG.
I don't care what the "theme" is, as long as it accurately represents what we see on the TV show.
In terms of combat I agree with you, in regards to all the singing, and love drama bull crap I don't want to see that.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
I have been mulling the idea of a Pool of Hit Points / MDC or whatever assosciated with the character.
The concept works like this: Give the PC a pool of points to absorb damage for the near hits and misses. The scratches and the scrapes, the stuff that allows for dramatic license and it comes back in down time. Now it can be used equally against MD and SDC (it just goes first). Now you can reduce the MDC of vehicles and armor to what you see in the show. With this it provides a buffer for the PC, and makes them a bit more 'heroic' and special compared to the NPC's that die like punks.
I was thinking about this, and what you could do is provide half benefit for characters who are not familiar with the vehicle/mecha in question. So people with Mecha Combat Basic would get a reduced benefit while full mecha combat would be better.
Now how much should you give your players? that could be debated on how gritty of a game you want. But I was thinking about using the SDC of the character as the starting point. Drop the bonus to HP per level and add it to SDC instead... If this is the case you may want to start SDC at 1/2 the starting point?
I want to first mention that I like Robotech as it is - without any changes. But this is an exercise as to what could be done:
Aura Damage Capacity
The Aura Damage Capacity (ADC) is an alternate system to help enhance Palladium Role-Playing Game worlds such as Rifts and Robotech. This article delves into Robotech, and what changes can be made to enhance the role-playing experience.
Aura Damage Capacity (ADC) represents the heroic nature of a character. It affects the character inside and outside of mecha and armor and protects the character from MDC and SDC weapons alike until it is depleted. This represents the cuts, nicks, and bruises a character receives yet somehow miraculously survives and/or gets out of the way. Only characters that are Player Characters and Major NPC’s should be given ADC. ADC recovers at (3 + Level of character) points per hour.
How to determine how much ADC a character has: Base ADC is based on the average of Mental Affinity (MA) and Physical Prowess (PP) attributes round down. So a character with a 13 MA and a 22 PP will have a base ADC of 17.
Based on the OCC there is an additional bonus to ADC per level. A Military Mecha Pilot OCC will receive 5 ADC per level. A Military Non-Mecha Pilot OCC will receive 4 ADC per level. A Non-Military Combat Oriented OCC receives 4 ADC, and a Non-Military Non-Combat OCC receives 3 ADC. So a VF Pilot, Destroid Pilot, and Cyclone Rider would get 5 ADC per level, a Military Specialist, Field Scientist, and Bio-Maintenance Engineer would get 4. A Freedom Fighter would get 4, but a Nomad Scout and a Civilian would get 3.
Hit Points: Hit Points will be changed to just a static number equal to the Physical Endurance of the character.
SDC: SDC will also be changed. It will be half the number it would be normally, and every level increase it by 1d6 (this increase is not affected by the halving).
MDC: There are going to be some major changes to all the mecha and armor due to the inclusion of ADC. All Mecha except Cyclones, Power Armor and Zentraedi Battle Pods would need to have their MDC reduced by half. Cyclones and Power Armor would only have one quarter of their original MDC, while the Old Zentraedi Battle Pods would have their full MDC. Body Armor and shields will also be reduced to half their original MDC. The ADC should cover for the loss of the additional MDC.
Critical Hits: Critical Hits will also need to be changed. A Critical Hit against a character with ADC will bypass the ADC and go directly to MDC and/or SDC whichever is relevant. Damage will be dealt as per normal Palladium Rules. A Critical against a character without ADC, the damage is doubled as per normal Palladium Rules.
Mecha Combat Skills: If a character has full Mecha Combat, and are piloting that vehicle double the ADC.
New Combat Skills: New Combat skills will need to be created for Vehicular Combat. I would make them generic in scope: Ground, Water, Air, and Space. These combat skills will provide double ADC to the vehicle from the Pilot. These combat skills should also provide bonuses, and may be applicable to Mecha in a non-transformed (Battloid) state.
Example of how it will work: A 5th Level Cyclone Rider with an MA of 19, PP of 21, and a PE of 14 will have Hit Points of 14, SDC of 20 + 1D6 and 45 ADC (5 per level and 20 (the average of MA and PP). The character while in CVR-3 would have 25 MDC and 45 ADC. This same character in a Cyclone would have 50 MDC (plus 25 from Body Armor) and 90 ADC. If this same character was in an Alpha they would have 150 MDC and 45 ADC due to Mecha Combat Basic. If someone fired a Gallant at this unarmored character, the ADC of 45 would protect against both the MD and SDC settings, dwindling the ADC till the character was actually hit (Going into SDC and Hit Points).
Tiree wrote:I want to first mention that I like Robotech as it is - without any changes. But this is an exercise as to what could be done:
Aura Damage Capacity.......
Interesting concept, have you play tested it yet?
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
jedi078 wrote:The Robotech RPG should be presented as a War themed RPG, not an anime themed RPG.
I disagree. It should be whatever you want it to be. War-themed, anime-themed, whatever you want. As it is right now, the RPG can go either way, depending on how the GM wants to run things.
jedi078 wrote:The Robotech RPG should be presented as a War themed RPG, not an anime themed RPG.
I disagree. It should be whatever you want it to be. War-themed, anime-themed, whatever you want. As it is right now, the RPG can go either way, depending on how the GM wants to run things.
Hey that's just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
sounds like the 'force points' system from Star Wars D20.
though i'd rather see an 'edge' system like battletech/mechwarrior has.
characters get 'edge points' that can be used to force changes. an edge point can be used to ensure a hit on a target, regardless of difficult, or used to force the enemy to reroll a shot, or allow you to reroll a skill and keep the better result, ect.
in battletech, your edge tends to be a low number, between 1 and 3, though some of the heroic NPC's can break this rule (usually the ones the writers like to give absurdly heroic actions too), and once you've used an edge point, you can't get it back (normally. in the RPG, you could spend build points/EXp to take the trait afgain and add one more to your pool.)
that sort of system can easily be added to any RPG.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70) Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project) * All fantasy should have a solid base in reality. * Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter. -Max Beerbohm Visit my Website
Tiree wrote:I want to first mention that I like Robotech as it is - without any changes. But this is an exercise as to what could be done:
Aura Damage Capacity.......
Interesting concept, have you play tested it yet?
Not exactly. I have play tested parts of it. Also other parts look like it would be an easier fit to add in. My only main concern is at higher levels the character will have quite a bit of ADC and add that to a powerful Mecha and it could be more than it started with. But I don't see that happening too often and have it too powerfull. What it does do, is help eliminate the destroyed limbs that can easily happen.
Loc wrote:The Concept seems like fun, but I have a questions questions/nitpicks.
Why only use P.P.? Shouldn't it be something like a prime requisite? After all P.P. makes sense for a Mecha Pilot, and maybe a Military Specialist, but shouldn't a Field Scientist or Mechanic use I.Q., and someone like Minmei use P.B.? After all it seems your going for how heroic the characters are and those stat are what makes them heroic in their job.
Why change the D6 per level kicker from S.D.C. to H.P.? Is this something you normally do, or do you feel it should be a change strictly for this system?
The reason I used PP and MA was I wanted a Metnal and a Physical attribute. The reason PP was used, was due to the nature of getting out of the way, rolling with things etc. MA to keep up with what is going around you, and keep your eye on what is going on. Now the base is the average of the two, so a high dex monkey with low mental abilities will have a medium ADC, while a smart mental guy with a low physical stats will still have a medium ADC.
Now you mention IQ - why this isn't used? Well, I don't see it as being a statistic that shows the character is aware of their surroundings. Now I am more akin of using ME, but it just didn't sound like the right statistic either. But you could make the conclusion that it is linked to your inner psionic precognition to get out of the way.
Remember ADC just allows you to get out of the way, to take minor hits, and still not be too damaged.
And yes this is very similar to star wars, but it is more like the vitality system with a twist.
Loc wrote:The Concept seems like fun, but I have a questions questions/nitpicks.
Why change the D6 per level kicker from S.D.C. to H.P.? Is this something you normally do, or do you feel it should be a change strictly for this system?
I forgot to comment on this: Now there are a couple of things I would like to make different with Palladium's SDC and Hit Point System. One, I think Hit Points should be a static number, while SDC does go up. To be honest, there really is no difference in my mind between the two.
The reason I had to make a change to SDC, was because I gave the characters ADC. I am sure you wouldn't want to give a character twice as much SDC or Hit Points, especially when ADC also protects you against MD weapons!
I see ADC like a dodge or a parry - you get out of the way with the skin of your teeth. BUT in game terms you took damage but it is recoverable quickly in time.
YE gowds, you lot are forgetting that this is anima we are talking about, where the "favorite charater" can sometimes be destined to die for no aparent reason other than because the writer felt it was time for them to go.
Case in point: Roy Fokker. Worst, character kill, evar.
When I was watching the Anime as a kid I cried when Roy died....
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
Case in point: Roy Fokker. Worst, character kill, evar.
One of my least favorite character deaths? Definitely.
Worst character death? Hardly.
It broke the mold, of the main heroes never dying. It was a popular character, and they still offed him. Because that happens. It's a war.
His death is an emotional hurdle for young Rick, and it shows us the stakes really are deadly.
Storywise, it's one of the best death scenes ever. Cause everyone goes, "No!" when they see it. That makes it powerful...
EDIT: I also like Tiree's suggestion, but then again, I think one of the best things about SW d20 is the Vitality/Wound system. It explains why experienced characters so regularly wipe the floor with stock goons, but still can get unlucky enough to be quittered...
Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations. I would hit that so hard that whoever could pull me out would be the true-born king of England. ~ Mark Hall Novastar only speaks the truth. ~ Brandon Aten, aka The Galactus Kid
Novastar wrote:EDIT: I also like Tiree's suggestion, but then again, I think one of the best things about SW d20 is the Vitality/Wound system. It explains why experienced characters so regularly wipe the floor with stock goons, but still can get unlucky enough to be quittered...
Novastar wrote:EDIT: I also like Tiree's suggestion, but then again, I think one of the best things about SW d20 is the Vitality/Wound system. It explains why experienced characters so regularly wipe the floor with stock goons, but still can get unlucky enough to be quittered...
Is it enough to make it a change in your game?
lol.
I might consider it...
Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations. I would hit that so hard that whoever could pull me out would be the true-born king of England. ~ Mark Hall Novastar only speaks the truth. ~ Brandon Aten, aka The Galactus Kid
Novastar wrote:Worst character death? Hardly. It broke the mold, of the main heroes never dying. It was a popular character, and they still offed him. Because that happens. It's a war.
His death is an emotional hurdle for young Rick, and it shows us the stakes really are deadly.
Storywise, it's one of the best death scenes ever. Cause everyone goes, "No!" when they see it. That makes it powerful...
I'm glad that Robotech chose to continue that with the deaths of the Bridge Bunnies, Claudia, and Admiral Gloval. It's one my favourite changes from Macross and it adds to the future stories.
Southern Cross continued this with the deaths of Zor Prime and General Emmerson, especially so in Zor's case because it turned out that in extreme irony to facillitate the Invid's arrival instead of protecting Earth from them. The hero sacraficing his life to save the world isn't new. But to screw up and doom the world to slavery? That also broke the mould.
I've often felt that one of the letdowns with the New Generation is the lack of this adversity for the Good Guys. The world is supposed to be a lawless dog-eat-dog world, and yet the heros continue to survive until the next episode with nary a scratch on them. You could possibly read some evil into Rook's background, depending on how far you take things, but it's hardly official one way or the other.
Alejandro wrote:Yes, I'm aware of the story ramifications....however I have never once managed to like Rick Hunter, and to my dying day will wish & pray that Roy Fokker will live & Hunter dies. Yes, war is hell....you can watch any anime that's war themed and notice that in 5 seconds as tin foil mecha blow up everywhere. However, it doesn't change the fact that of all the people they could've killed, they killed the wrong guy.
The greatest people get killed and the worst always seem to squeak by. Why? Because the great ones are the only ones worth saving.
Sergeant Horvath dies...Corporal Upham lives.
I guess to me it wouldn't be too much of a story if the Main Character dies half way through the series. Rick Hunter was the main character of Macross, it all revolved around him. Everyone else including Minmei were expendable to increase his ability in the show.
The reason they killed Roy Fokker was not for anything other than to let Rick Hunter excel and become the Hero Roy was. Rick was hiding under the shadow of Roy, and Roy was protecting Rick. What better way to have Rick basically become a man, than to have Roy disappear.
The same thing can be said for Lisa Hayes.... When Gloval dies, she takes his role and becomes a great leader to come.
Now personally I would of rather seen Dana Sterling die, and Scott Bernard. Yes have Southern Cross revolve around Nova Satori and the inept GMP. While Invid Invasion revolved around the only character with style Dusty Ayres...
Alejandro wrote:...he was that series' Corporal Upham. A character placed in there to **** the audience off.
You're right; Rick didn't even bother to attempt to go back and save Ben Dixon.
Rick was problem thinking... "Well at least it's not me with the damaged engine, I guess I get to go back to the White Dragon and finish Ben's steak”.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem". Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
Alejandro wrote:The reason they killed Roy Fokker was not for anything other than to let Rick Hunter excel and become the Hero Roy was. Rick was hiding under the shadow of Roy, and Roy was protecting Rick. What better way to have Rick basically become a man, than to have Roy disappear.
The same thing can be said for Lisa Hayes.... When Gloval dies, she takes his role and becomes a great leader to come.
That's my biggest gripe about how the non-Robotech Macross story progressed. In Robotech, the deaths of Fokker and Gloval forced Rick and Lisa to realize that it was up to them to finish what Gloval started. Nobody else was going to do it for them, so it was time for them to step up to the plate.
