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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:21 am
  

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Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am
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So, this is probably not entirely a new question, but I can't even find back the sources I had found the last time I searched the forum for this. My group and I have yet to give up and just house rule the thing, but some part of me feels that maybe we've just made some dumb mistakes and are only now getting how to use that part. Long story short, my character just saved the day with an elbow hit and we're now not totally sure I should even have been able to use it.

Point is, when we made our characters, we were under the impression that the "note section" was listing all the manoeuvres a character can perform using a specific HtH. But then someone noticed that the kick, while widely stated as available, was often just unlocked a few levels later, as a long list of other moves. So when building our sheets, we first thought we had to check each move to know if they were readily available or not. For example, as HtH: Expert, Elbow is mentioned in "Note"; it isn't however taught at any level, therefore we assumed it should be given at level 1. However, Body Flip is in the list AND learned at a level, so it shouldn't be available until then.
But that was weird and clunky and not necessarily easy to explain when we finally had a character trying to kick... to learn he just couldn't thrust with his feet until another level.

So I checked the forum. Then I found people telling that this was normal and that the person was just "so untrained in kicking that they couldn't do any damage in any quantifiable manner that way". It was not that there was an unknown damage code for a kick before it dealt 1D8, but rather that it did begun to deal anything at this level with the 1D8. That basically kicking was often learned at level 3 and could only be learned faster by kick boxing. These same people were telling that the "note" section was basically a confusing mistake and should be ignored to deal with most games. Ok...
So we now knew what to tell that player... and all was good, for a time.
Then tonight I used an elbow strike.

That I hadn't learned at any level. That I couldn't ever learn.
And so that I shouldn't be able to use any more than my Body Flip until I reached level 8.
So that-prevented-to-kick-player, who is also sometime doubling as rule lawyer, had bid his time until that fated moment to point it.
That's a sad discovery for someone playing a PLA tanker with a past in Sanda guans and others.

But then again, also on this forum, I remember seeing an argument about HtH being used as a W.P. for the purpose of dealing with Fist being obvious paired weapons. And it downed on me that, if HtH was a W.P., then other rulings regarding W.P. might apply... rulings that would make sense of that damn "note" section without having to compare it with the level scale until it was necessary. Almost. It still don't tell why an attack should "gain" suddenly a code of damage it is supposed to always have had.

Namely, as per the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons P.19-20 (Shooting Wild) :
Quote:
Strike Bonus & Penalties: Characters who have a W.P. in that particular type of weapon shoot without any sort of modifier: there is no bonus or penalty. Just the normal roll of the dice.
Characters using a weapon without benefit of a W.P. strike with a penalty of -6.


I took this example because the Compendium tends to apply Shooting Wild in a new dimension with the spray fire, which is a more conscious decision than most other examples. Like "I shoot the tires", without aiming at a specific tire. It also makes it so that "shooting wild" with training is less dramatic than without. But what if it could be applied in situations where it would be awkward to aim? Like for an elbow strike? Or a Knee strike? Or some other attacks that might appear in the "Note" but not at any specific levels?
Modern Weapons in the special 2E of RT states more or less the same, but at a different tier.
Quote:
Anybody who does not have a W.P. in a particular weapon type CAN pick up a gun and use it, but does so without benefit of any bonuses. [...] and -6 when shooting wild.


So, considering both, a character with W.P. goes "wild" at natural roll, no W.P. get "wild" at -6 and can have other penalties depending on situation.
If we consider that HtH is W.P. as per the Paired Weapons use, then would it be legit to consider that the character is technically with W.P., but wild with a move, at least until it appears in its levelling up list?
Therefore, I should have been able to do an Elbow Strike, but at no modifiers, since it is in my HtH but can never be trained to be as easy as a kick or karate punch?

That's kind of weird too though, since then it would also effect most basic attacks and only the ones gained through levels would be using the strike bonuses outside of attributes. I doubt this was written so that all punches are at natural roll until someone does a Karate punch.

Which brings me back to : Why should I gain a kick if I could always kick? And If I can gain a kick that I hadn't, then why does the HtH Expert lists an Elbow that will never be of use?
Is that that the "note" in fact supersede the levelling up order, meaning that anyone can do much of everything at level 1?
Or maybe it's just fu***d...

In which case, our GM has suggested to include the elbow strike in "kick-boxing" which I have, and would then count that skill as a Muay Thay upgrade since Wrestling counts Judo in already, as per RT rules, and Boxing could include some of Savate.

Which does seem more viable to you all? Any other interpretations?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:59 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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xunk16 wrote:
That basically kicking was often learned at level 3 and could only be learned faster by kick boxing.

You do know that a basic Kick Attack is included in other skills, right? Like Gymnastics is 2d4, Acrobatics at 1d8 right? Also, Aerobic Athletics is +2 kicking damage. In addition to Kick Boxing.

xunk16 wrote:
Why should I gain a kick if I could always kick? And If I can gain a kick that I hadn't, then why does the HtH Expert lists an Elbow that will never be of use?

Well, if we look at the way the HTH skill was back in 1E, it was a lot clearer or murkier than in 2E depending on your POV. What changed is that the leveled text hasn't been fully updated to reflect additional maneuvers added into the system for 2E that wasn't an issue in 1E (this is true even in Rifts Ultimate Edition from RMB).

If it's something gained at Level 1 anyway, I wouldn't be too concerned with it. Something that is on a list that isn't listed one-way-or-another @Level just means you get it at Level 1 since you will note Entangle and Disarm are both on the list for every HTH option (except None), so it is reasonable that you could do everything on the list since Entangle IS a universal option. Now the stuff you acquire at higher level...

xunk16 wrote:
Which does seem more viable to you all? Any other interpretations?

I have two interpretations that start out that you get everything on the list (w/n reason), but the maneuvers that you get at a later level:
1. you can perform it with an increase APM cost until you achive the required level (precedent Parry/Auto-Parry, or Dodge/Auto-Dodge)
2. you do so with a straight die roll until the necessary level is achieved. (Some precedent exists for this, some HTH styles DO provide bonuses to specialized maneuvers, ex Commando provides BONUS to Body-Flip/Throw @Level6/11)

In this way you don't "suddenly" know how to do something but have just become proficient enough to do it fluidly with practice (which should be going on, even if its off "camera").


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:02 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Well, if we look at the way the HTH skill was back in 1E, it was a lot clearer or murkier than in 2E depending on your POV. What changed is that the leveled text hasn't been fully updated to reflect additional maneuvers added into the system for 2E that wasn't an issue in 1E (this is true even in Rifts Ultimate Edition from RMB).

If it's something gained at Level 1 anyway, I wouldn't be too concerned with it. Something that is on a list that isn't listed one-way-or-another @Level just means you get it at Level 1 since you will note Entangle and Disarm are both on the list for every HTH option (except None), so it is reasonable that you could do everything on the list since Entangle IS a universal option. Now the stuff you acquire at higher level...

[...]

I have two interpretations that start out that you get everything on the list (w/n reason), but the manoeuvres that you get at a later level:
1. you can perform it with an increase APM cost until you achive the required level (precedent Parry/Auto-Parry, or Dodge/Auto-Dodge)
2. you do so with a straight die roll until the necessary level is achieved. (Some precedent exists for this, some HTH styles DO provide bonuses to specialized maneuvers, ex Commando provides BONUS to Body-Flip/Throw @Level6/11)

In this way you don't "suddenly" know how to do something but have just become proficient enough to do it fluidly with practice (which should be going on, even if its off "camera").


Thanks! This could settle the whole debate in a satisfying manner. It both means that I had made the right call when first making my sheet, but also support a more grounded approach for the flexibility of unlearned moves or murky ones.

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