Are the Coalition the "Good Guys"?

[Curbludgeon]

A vocal contingent of people interpreted the transparently-coded villains in the recent show "The Boys" like Homelander as being heroes. Some Warhammer fans have taken literally what was intended as satire.as an endorsement. A couple of posts above someone proclaimed that fascism has a history of protecting people. Earlier in the thread the argument was made that the Coalition States couldn't be prejudiced because they have a black one, and felt that so conclusive an argument that they used creepy phrases like "ebony demigod." Ignoring observable behavior in favor of an argument that extensive laudatory language in books like Heroes of Humanity and Coalition Manhunters (warnings in a seemingly obligatory preface which has long been derided as a ~30 year old copypasta response to the Satanic Panic notwithstanding) would necessarily be seen more as tongue in cheek than an acknowledgment on which side a company with a history of not repudiating apologists butters their bread is what's backwards.

[Killer Cyborg]

A vocal contingent of people interpreted the transparently-coded villains in the recent show "The Boys" like Homelander as being heroes. Some Warhammer fans have taken literally what was intended as satire.as an endorsement. A couple of posts above someone proclaimed that fascism has a history of protecting people. Earlier in the thread the argument was made that the Coalition States couldn't be prejudiced because they have a black one, and felt that so conclusive an argument that they used creepy phrases like "ebony demigod." Ignoring observable behavior in favor of an argument that extensive laudatory language in books like Heroes of Humanity and Coalition Manhunters (warnings in a seemingly obligatory preface which has long been derided as a ~30 year old copypasta response to the Satanic Panic notwithstanding) would necessarily be seen more as tongue in cheek than an acknowledgment on which side a company with a history of not repudiating apologists butters their bread is what's backwards.

The thread title asks if the CS are the Good Guys.
It doesn’t ask if deliberately uninformed people might want to see them that way.

[Blackwater Sniper]

What do humans do when faced with an invasive species?

To be considered ‘invasive,’ a species can’t be native to the land, must be able to adapt quickly to the new environment, be of serious harm to native species, and cause physical environmental or economic harm. Some are introduced to the non-native environment by way of accidental release, while others as a (short-sighted) means to help control another species.

In the United States, take the Asian Carp in the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, iguanas and pythons in the Florida Everglades, or wild boars in the southern and southwestern states just to name a few.
They have no natural predators and, when allowed to procreate, may quickly overrun one food source and move on to another unabated. Many islands around the world are infested with common cats brought in to help control rats and mice, but then go on to hunt many species to (near) extinction.
There are regular hunts to harvest the numbers of snakes and wild boars. These are applauded by many groups, so long as the killing is quick and not done to sate some bloodlust.

I believe the Coalition States looks at any D-Bee as part of a larger invasive species in need of culling and they will do what is necessary to do so. Leaving the parallel symbolism between them and Nazi Germany alone, does that make them truly evil or just trying to survive the best they can?

Are farmers, environmentalists, and other nature-lovers evil for wanting to control something that shouldn’t be there in the first place? If it means saving from potential extinction a native species of bird, fish, or the whole human race, who wouldn’t stand up and do something?

[Killer Cyborg]

I believe the Coalition States looks at any D-Bee as part of a larger invasive species in need of culling and they will do what is necessary to do so. Leaving the parallel symbolism between them and Nazi Germany alone, does that make them truly evil or just trying to survive the best they can?

Evil.
D-Bees as a category aren't a threat to humanity.
Individual kinds of D-Bees are, sometimes, but that's not the same thing.

Are farmers, environmentalists, and other nature-lovers evil for wanting to control something that shouldn’t be there in the first place? If it means saving from potential extinction a native species of bird, fish, or the whole human race, who wouldn’t stand up and do something?

The whole human race isn't endangered by D-Bees. So it's not really the same deal.
Also, exterminating animals is one thing, and exterminating sapient beings is another.

[Library Ogre]

I believe the Coalition States looks at any D-Bee as part of a larger invasive species in need of culling and they will do what is necessary to do so.

So, to be clear, "those people" are animals, in need of extermination? They infringe on the rights good people to land and resources, and "culling" is "necessary" to make living space for humans?

[Curbludgeon]

The thread title asks if the CS are the Good Guys.
It doesn’t ask if deliberately uninformed people might want to see them that way.

I don't think labeling a hypothetical yet reasonable new player whom, after agreeing to play in a pro-Coalition game, has as the first books they purchase after being RUE Coalition War Machine, Heroes of Humanity, and Coalition Manhunters, as being deliberately uninformed is arguing in good faith. More importantly, and I thought this was taken as a given, but the Coalition States are a fictitious entity. They have no objective reality, intentions of the author be damned, and assessments of their morality are entirely a matter of subjective public perception.

[Library Ogre]

So, to be clear, "those people" are animals, in need of extermination?
They infringe on the rights good people to land and resources, and "culling" is "necessary" to make living space for humans?

No - that is a last resort when they refuse to leave and insist on infringing on the rights of humans.

The rights of humans to do what? Because, again, the Coalition actively seeks out D-Bee villages and kills them all, not as retaliation for a specific crime, but because they are D-Bees. They are defining "D-Bee" as being a crime worthy of death. They are also proclaiming that being a human with magic, or an unsanctioned psychic, or an unsanctioned mutant (human or animal), as being a crime worthy of death. Not for anything they DID... not for any specific crime committed within Coalition territory... but because they exist in a way the CS does not approve, even in places the CS does not control.

If a bunch of invaders are breaking into your house constantly, killing residents of your house, robbing you, etc. are you going to split hairs about separating potentially peaceful squatters apart from the violent ones, or just assume they're all risks who need to be expelled and attacked until they are at a safe distance?

But, again, the CS is claiming all lands. They're not saying "Stay out of the Coalition State of Missouri", they're saying "We have preemptively claimed all of Earth, even the parts no real human is using, and will kill you for not granting us our claim." They're not saying "You have committed a crime against our nation." They are saying "Your very existence is a crime, regardless of what you are doing or where you are doing it."

That's not "someone is breaking into your house constantly"... you don't actually own most of the places you've decided are being invaded. That is deciding that you own the town, and anyone who you don't like needs to die if they won't get out of this town. How long have they lived in town? Doesn't matter, it's your town.

The CS can perceive the Earth as their town all they want... but it doesn't mean they're not blowing up people's houses for the crime of not being [the right kind of] human. The CS does not speak for Earth, nor does it speak for humanity.

[Dustin Fireblade]

IMO the Coalition is an evil force. They condone genocide, are bigoted and racist, and don't seem to have ethics.

Plus, the Nazi imagery is a HORRIBLE choice if they're meant to represent "good".

Yet many books, and players, seem to present them as the good guys, or at least in some sort of grey area.

In my games, the citizens are complex, but the military are all bad.

I ran a CS based campaign for years. Characters were all "aberrant" alignment. They were in a number of dynamic missions, especially as they leveled up into the higher levels. Orders were refused, lies told to protect sources, and lines crossed.

[Hotrod]

I believe the Coalition States looks at any D-Bee as part of a larger invasive species in need of culling and they will do what is necessary to do so. Leaving the parallel symbolism between them and Nazi Germany alone, does that make them truly evil or just trying to survive the best they can?

Evil.
D-Bees as a category aren't a threat to humanity.
Individual kinds of D-Bees are, sometimes, but that's not the same thing.

Agreed; It's reasonable to seek to eradicate the Xiticix, Apocalypse Demons, Vampire Kingdoms, and certain other varieties/groups that are very much anti-human and intrinsically incompatible with human life/liberty isn't evil. "Kill 'em all" isn't morally defensible. Even the C.S. doesn't generally default to immediate eradication; that would be both evil and stupid/counterproductive.

Are farmers, environmentalists, and other nature-lovers evil for wanting to control something that shouldn’t be there in the first place? If it means saving from potential extinction a native species of bird, fish, or the whole human race, who wouldn’t stand up and do something?

The whole human race isn't endangered by D-Bees. So it's not really the same deal.
Also, exterminating animals is one thing, and exterminating sapient beings is another.

Here I think it's important to make some caveats. The whole human race isn't a power block like True Atlanteans are; humans in Rifts organize and group by region, and in many regions the survival and freedom of humanity is absolutely endangered by D-Bees.

I think it's also important to examine an intrinsic assumption Blackwater Sniper makes. Who or what decides who should or should not be allowed to exist in a specific region? The people who were there first? Does "dibbs" justify genocide? Are white Americans like me supposed to exist in North America? Would native Americans be justified in exterminating people like me?

There's a certain darwinian tribalism that seems to instinctively kick in for people who think of other races of humans as being, well, "others" or less than fully worthy as human beings. I see that as and counterproductive; we're all in the same gene pool species after all and can associate and make families across racial lines if we want to. You can always take issue with that if you want, but racism is bad, mmkay?

That said, that darwinian argument isn't so easily dismissed when you're talking about different species that cannot interbreed. I still generally dismiss it as long as those species can still have productive relationships (exchanges of goods, services, ideas, and friendship/adoption) or at least aren't hurting each other, but I suppose I can see an argument for keeping even cooperative sentient species segregated to some degree for the long-term interest of both species; intermarriage between species that can't interbreed is going to have detrimental demographic effects, after all, and family relationships between people who have radically different distributions of capabilities and traits are likely to face intrinsic difficulties and even dangers in some cases. I would expect such segregation to happen organically without needing an authoritarian state to impose it.

[hup7]

Weirdly long topic...

My opinion - No, the coalition are not the the "good guys"

Kev's opinion - No, the coalition are NOT the "good guys"

The rules books - No, the coalition are NOT the "good guys" (check the alignments of the higher ups)

There is not need to say "but..." it is a pretty simple answer to the pretty simple question.

Now the unasked but implied question "are ALL the coalition members / citizens EVIL" This is also No. Some are, some aren't.

Are you asking about the people in the Coalition OR the Coalition as a political group?

[Aermas]

So, to be clear, "those people" are animals, in need of extermination?
They infringe on the rights good people to land and resources, and "culling" is "necessary" to make living space for humans?

No - that is a last resort when they refuse to leave and insist on infringing on the rights of humans.

The rights of humans to do what? Because, again, the Coalition actively seeks out D-Bee villages and kills them all, not as retaliation for a specific crime, but because they are D-Bees. They are defining "D-Bee" as being a crime worthy of death. They are also proclaiming that being a human with magic, or an unsanctioned psychic, or an unsanctioned mutant (human or animal), as being a crime worthy of death. Not for anything they DID... not for any specific crime committed within Coalition territory... but because they exist in a way the CS does not approve, even in places the CS does not control.

If a bunch of invaders are breaking into your house constantly, killing residents of your house, robbing you, etc. are you going to split hairs about separating potentially peaceful squatters apart from the violent ones, or just assume they're all risks who need to be expelled and attacked until they are at a safe distance?

But, again, the CS is claiming all lands. They're not saying "Stay out of the Coalition State of Missouri", they're saying "We have preemptively claimed all of Earth, even the parts no real human is using, and will kill you for not granting us our claim." They're not saying "You have committed a crime against our nation." They are saying "Your very existence is a crime, regardless of what you are doing or where you are doing it."

That's not "someone is breaking into your house constantly"... you don't actually own most of the places you've decided are being invaded. That is deciding that you own the town, and anyone who you don't like needs to die if they won't get out of this town. How long have they lived in town? Doesn't matter, it's your town.

The CS can perceive the Earth as their town all they want... but it doesn't mean they're not blowing up people's houses for the crime of not being [the right kind of] human. The CS does not speak for Earth, nor does it speak for humanity.

If I have a house & there is a maniac in my basement, a peaceful homeless person in my upstairs closet, & three hostile guys with weapons in my living room, it doesn't matter, none of them belong in my house. The CS isn't fighting for the CS. It's fighting for humanity. All of it, everywhere. They only have been able to secure the dining room & even took a few squatters in there since they were helpful.

The CS wants to destroy the biggest threats first & eventually shepard the non hostile ones somewhere else. There are a ton of DBees in Chi Town. It isn't random absolute genocide. Just priority

[Nevermore]

Well you can definitely tell how some of these people vote.

[Aermas]

Well you can definitely tell how some of these people vote.

Needless antagonistic digs at people about real world issues isn't a good argument when discussing fictional things. BTW, I've always voted straight Blue.

[barna10]

I voted perpendicular independent

[Hotrod]

Does that scenario happen often in your games?

It should but GMs choose how real they want to get w/ implementing realistic magic ramifications.

I'm struggling to see how the C.S.'s anti-literacy policy is anything but counterproductive, outside of the far-fetched scenario of some kid picking up a destructive magic scroll that blew in his window. Would you mind elaborating?

[barna10]

Does that scenario happen often in your games?

It should but GMs choose how real they want to get w/ implementing realistic magic ramifications.

I'm struggling to see how the C.S.'s anti-literacy policy is anything but counterproductive, outside of the far-fetched scenario of some kid picking up a destructive magic scroll that blew in his window. Would you mind elaborating?

Remember, it's not just magic they are trying to control. Knowledge in-general is seen as the enemy hence why the "Rogue Scholar" and the "Rogue Scientist" are "rogue".

[Sohisohi]

They are objectively the good guys, with few exceptions:
Practically every faction is trying to genocide something, usually aliens or dbees.
Race is the original terminology for species; so being racist on RIFTS Earth is a valid ideology.

Their bigotry toward literacy, and general use of propaganda, is kinda sus. . . But by the Minion War, I mean like, what evil is the CS exactly engaging in? If you are a mage, ok, stop using magic and you are now a citizen of the CS. "are you still a mage? yes? ok, lets fight demons together". The CS tolerates Dbees and (if I recall correctly) ended the mob riot that killed off many dbees in the 'burbs.

At this point, we either need post-minion-war content to re-establish the CS as evil or some kind of Minion War content that shows the CS working against "its allies".

[Killer Cyborg]

D-Bees as a category aren't a threat to humanity.
Individual kinds of D-Bees are, sometimes, but that's not the same thing.

Which species of D-Bee do you think is least threatening to humanity?

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

Anyway, for an answer all I can say is that most D-Bees are just humans in alien drag, fundamentally the same as humans are but with mild cosmetic differences akin to the countless Star Trek species that are just humans with weirdly bumpy noses.
Asking which D-Bee race is "least threatening" to humans is like asking me which non-white "race" in real life is "least threatening" to whites.
It assumes that there's some kind of real threat posed by purely cosmetic differences, like skin color, pointy ears, and so forth.
And there isn't.
The only threat is to the fragile egos of the deranged, who place an insane amount of importance on how people look.

The whole human race isn't endangered by D-Bees. So it's not really the same deal.
Also, exterminating animals is one thing, and exterminating sapient beings is another.

Sapience just means the invasive species displacing yours has more control over their actions and makes their doing so even more malicious when they clearly surpass you in many areas and have an appreciable ability to settle other lands.

No, man.
Sapience means they're not "an invasive species" at all, unless they're actually hostile invaders waging war on you.
Mostly, D-Bees are essentially the descendants of refugees, and they have just as much right to be on this planet as anybody else, especially since they've been here hundreds of years.
I wouldn't call North Americans of European descent living here TODAY "an invasive species" just because their ancestors displaced natives hundreds of years ago.

The leaders of magical nations have the capability of forming rifts to entirely different planets they could resettle their D-Bee citizens but instead they just summon more demons to expand into the countryside and encroach on human farmers.

Sure, and white people could leave the USA and "go back to Europe."
Or, if we really put our minds to it, all move to Mars or something.
But it's not a reasonable ask or expectation; we've been here for generations.

What I'm missing from your questions is any reason why D-Bees SHOULD relocate somewhere else.
Sure, there are some cases like the Xiticix where there doesn't currently seem to be any way to mutually co-exist with humanity. But those are the rare, extreme cases, not the norm.
In many or most places on Rifts Earth, humans and D-Bees co-exist without much problem, except for the problems caused by racists who just don't like the idea.

Beyond that, remember that the Coalition States considers humans from other dimensions to be D-Bees who are just as much threat as any other kind.
They're not about protecting humanity any more than Hitler was about "protecting Germans."
That's what they claim, but you can tell their real agenda by the way they define the key terms.
If a parent says "I'm going to protect this family," then defines "family" as not including a bunch of his children, he's not being honest with his declarations.

[Aermas]

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

Floopers are from a base human perspective, a species of, indestructible teleporting people. Add yo this that they are ALL conmen & thieves who exploit others... sounds like a predator to me. Imagine some poor old grandma trying to be nice to this Flooper & he takes all her money & leaves her to starve.

Anyway, for an answer all I can say is that most D-Bees are just humans in alien drag, fundamentally the same as humans are but with mild cosmetic differences akin to the countless Star Trek species that are just humans with weirdly bumpy noses.
Asking which D-Bee race is "least threatening" to humans is like asking me which non-white "race" in real life is "least threatening" to whites.
It assumes that there's some kind of real threat posed by purely cosmetic differences, like skin color, pointy ears, and so forth.
And there isn't.
The only threat is to the fragile egos of the deranged, who place an insane amount of importance on how people look.

I'm gonna ignore the uncouth strawman & political baiting here & just ask which species do you think is a human in as you rudely put it, "drag"?

The whole human race isn't endangered by D-Bees. So it's not really the same deal.
Also, exterminating animals is one thing, and exterminating sapient beings is another.

No, man.
Sapience means they're not "an invasive species" at all, unless they're actually hostile invaders waging war on you.
Mostly, D-Bees are essentially the descendants of refugees, and they have just as much right to be on this planet as anybody else, especially since they've been here hundreds of years.
I wouldn't call North Americans of European descent living here TODAY "an invasive species" just because their ancestors displaced natives hundreds of years ago.

Sure, and white people could leave the USA and "go back to Europe."
Or, if we really put our minds to it, all move to Mars or something.
But it's not a reasonable ask or expectation; we've been here for generations.

What I'm missing from your questions is any reason why D-Bees SHOULD relocate somewhere else.
Sure, there are some cases like the Xiticix where there doesn't currently seem to be any way to mutually co-exist with humanity. But those are the rare, extreme cases, not the norm.
In many or most places on Rifts Earth, humans and D-Bees co-exist without much problem, except for the problems caused by racists who just don't like the idea.

Beyond that, remember that the Coalition States considers humans from other dimensions to be D-Bees who are just as much threat as any other kind.
They're not about protecting humanity any more than Hitler was about "protecting Germans."
That's what they claim, but you can tell their real agenda by the way they define the key terms.
If a parent says "I'm going to protect this family," then defines "family" as not including a bunch of his children, he's not being honest with his declarations.

Cutting through all that other stuff again... D-Bees are various Species. They have invaded Earth, not all were hostile invasions, but invasions nonetheless. Therefore they are an invasive species. They take Earth resources, they kill Earth humans, they propagate their species over humans. No different than cane toads.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

Floopers are from a base human perspective, a species of, indestructible teleporting people.

Yes.
Also, they're ambidextrous, double-jointed, and naturally agile.
And this threatens your manhood somehow...?
I'm entirely comfortable with it.

Add you this that they are ALL conmen & thieves who exploit others... sounds like a predator to me. Imagine some poor old grandma trying to be nice to this Flooper & he takes all her money & leaves her to starve.

What the book tells us is (VK 133) "The typical flooper is... a lazy thief."
Note that you've taken "Typical" and tried to pretend that means "ALL."
Which is typical of how racism works; take a perceived common trait, and pretend that it's an immutable rule that applies to every member of a group.

Floopers are "usually Unprincipled or Anarchist," alignment-wise, so it's not like they're an Evil species, just problematic.
But note that "usually" (like "typical") is a generalism, NOT a hard and fast rule for all members of the species; there are necessarily Good floopers and Evil floopers as well, and there is no note that either of these kinds are "all but unheard of" or anything.

Same page tells us "Floopers don't mean to be bad, they just hate work and like to play a lot."
Basically, like children.
Not exactly a reason to exterminate them as a species.

Mr. Drak has 16 Floopers working for him.
We are told in canon, "It has taken Mr. Drak years of discipline and the patience of a saint to break most of his circus Floopers from stealing, and there is still the occasional theft."

So in canon, with patience and discipline, Floopers are capable of NOT being thieves, even for the ones who are predisposed toward theft.
They can change; it's not written into their DNA.

If your basis for arguing that Floopers should be exterminated or driven off-world is that they're often Anarchists and Thieves, you'd make a lot more sense arguing that ALL Anarchists and Thieves are killed or driven off-world regardless of race.
By singling one species out while ignoring the Anarchists and Thieves in certain other races, your bias is showing.

Anyway, for an answer all I can say is that most D-Bees are just humans in alien drag, fundamentally the same as humans are but with mild cosmetic differences akin to the countless Star Trek species that are just humans with weirdly bumpy noses.
Asking which D-Bee race is "least threatening" to humans is like asking me which non-white "race" in real life is "least threatening" to whites.
It assumes that there's some kind of real threat posed by purely cosmetic differences, like skin color, pointy ears, and so forth.
And there isn't.
The only threat is to the fragile egos of the deranged, who place an insane amount of importance on how people look.

I'm gonna ignore the uncouth strawman & political baiting here & just ask which species do you think is a human in as you rudely put it, "drag"?

Like I said, most of them.
I'm not going to give you a list of dozens.

If you want one simple example, turn to P. 18 of the RMB, and look at the Family Origin chart.
Note that this is in the Optional rules section; you don't need to roll on these tables, because they're purely cosmetic; they have ZERO actual effect on what your character is like as a person.
You might choose to have your character act a specific way just because you rolled that you're a First Born, or not.
You might choose to have your character act a specific way just because you rolled that you're Obese, but you don't have to; it doesn't affect attributes or skills or anything, much less personality or morals.

Some tables are for role-playing character flavor, like Disposition. You could end up with a "Mean, suspicious, vengeful" character if you choose to roll there, but you'd get to pick how that plays out. There's no rule about it.

Anyway, Family Origin has the following possible results:
1. Earth Native. The character is human.
2. D-Bee; Human (or close to it), but parents came through a Rift from another dimension.
3. Earth native, but human mutants with a history of psionic powers in the family.
4. One parent was a native Earthling, the other a D-Bee.
5. Earth Mutant (1-50%), or D-Bee (51-90%, or alien (91-00%) that is humanoid but has unusual features. Roll twice on the following table to determine the character's appearance or select two different features...

Right there in the rules of character creation, we're shown that there is zero practical difference between an Earth Mutant, a D-Bee, or an Alien when it comes to anything other than essentially cosmetic features. Yeah, you might get some bonus SDC or something. You might be able to use your tail to hold a coffee mug.
But the character is fundamentally the same whether you roll on these tables or not; there is nothing inherent about having a tail that makes your character have a mind or morals that are any different than any human character.

And the same applies if you roll that your character is a D-Bee or a half-D-Bee; it has zero mechanical effect on your character's personality or morals, or anything else.
It's cosmetic.
The only thing "nonhuman" about them compared to rolling a human is how you choose for that aspect to come up in the game, IF you choose for it to come up in the game.

Heck, the Family Origin table doesn't even affect other tables like the Sentiments Toward The Coalition table or the Sentiments Toward Non-Humans table!

It's not anything real or significant in the game or the game world, except to the extent that people playing the game or living in the game world want it to be.

If you roll that your character is a D-Bee with "zero body hair," then having zero body hair is literally the only difference between your character and an identical human character, as far as game mechanics go.
You can play them like a normal human, or you can play them as a Mork-like weirdo, but that's your choice that has nothing to do with the in-game reality. You could make the same choice to play a normal human that way; it's a player-created character personality trait, NOT any inherent racial difference.
The only inherent racial difference in this case is a lack of body hair.

And the other stuff on the table is mostly the same. You might have fur, or scales, or look ape-like, but those are literally the ONLY inherent differences that this origin table has.

The whole human race isn't endangered by D-Bees. So it's not really the same deal.
Also, exterminating animals is one thing, and exterminating sapient beings is another.

No, man.
Sapience means they're not "an invasive species" at all, unless they're actually hostile invaders waging war on you.
Mostly, D-Bees are essentially the descendants of refugees, and they have just as much right to be on this planet as anybody else, especially since they've been here hundreds of years.
I wouldn't call North Americans of European descent living here TODAY "an invasive species" just because their ancestors displaced natives hundreds of years ago.

Sure, and white people could leave the USA and "go back to Europe."
Or, if we really put our minds to it, all move to Mars or something.
But it's not a reasonable ask or expectation; we've been here for generations.

What I'm missing from your questions is any reason why D-Bees SHOULD relocate somewhere else.
Sure, there are some cases like the Xiticix where there doesn't currently seem to be any way to mutually co-exist with humanity. But those are the rare, extreme cases, not the norm.
In many or most places on Rifts Earth, humans and D-Bees co-exist without much problem, except for the problems caused by racists who just don't like the idea.

Beyond that, remember that the Coalition States considers humans from other dimensions to be D-Bees who are just as much threat as any other kind.
They're not about protecting humanity any more than Hitler was about "protecting Germans."
That's what they claim, but you can tell their real agenda by the way they define the key terms.
If a parent says "I'm going to protect this family," then defines "family" as not including a bunch of his children, he's not being honest with his declarations.

Cutting through all that other stuff again...

i.e., "ignoring the point(s)."

D-Bees are various Species. They have invaded Earth, not all were hostile invasions, but invasions nonetheless.

Invasion: "an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force."

Try again.

Therefore they are an invasive species. They take Earth resources, they kill Earth humans, they propagate their species over humans.

Humans take Earth resources, kill Earth humans, and propagate over other species.
What about it?

(For that matter, in come cases the D-Bees are helping propagate OUR species. See the "one parent was a D-bee" part of the Family Origin chart.)

[Aermas]

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

You mean "humanhood"? Otherwise youre ignorant sexist or both. I'm not even going to entertain whatever else you're going to say. Maybe ask the women in your life if they like the idea of an indestructible rapist.let alone one with magic or psychic powers.

[Library Ogre]

The rights of humans to do what? Because, again, the Coalition actively seeks out D-Bee villages and kills them all, not as retaliation for a specific crime, but because they are D-Bees.

The rights of humans to occupy their homeland.

So, the largely European and African-descended CS is respecting the rights of the Native Americans to the continent? They respected the rights of the mestizos in Port Horus to their homeland? How about the people of the New West, which the CS has decided not to expand into, but

"Skelebots, Kill Hounds, Kill Cats and other mutants, agents and 'death squads' are sent into the Western Territory on missions of murder and destruction (can range from one or two individuals to squads of 6-12). Often these forces have but one goal, to kill or hurt the enemy — which is virtually all nonhumans, practitioners of magic, supernatural beings and people who have rejected life in the Coalition States." (New West, page 15)

So, they're not expanding there... they actually judge it "hostile and forbidding territory not fit for human habitation" (ibid)... but they'll happily send in death squads against those who have rejected life in the Coalition States (which would, presumably, be humans eligible for such life, but who chose not to live there)? Let's not forget their penchant for slavery, either; some of those they send to kill are slave-soldiers that the CS themselves created.

Where was that done? Karl never to my memory wished death on D-Bees who stayed in their home dimensions.
He's not AFAIK launching nukes through Rifts to try and decimate other planets linked to Rifts Earth.

He's wishing death on any D-Bee who is on Earth. Including many for whom it is their home dimension, having lived here for hundreds of years and a score of generations.

They are also proclaiming that being a human with magic, or an unsanctioned psychic, or an unsanctioned mutant (human or animal), as being a crime worthy of death.

I've never heard of anything that extreme in regard to psychics.

"Non-Coalition psychics, on the other hand, are often branded as rogues, dissidents, criminals and dangerous revolutionaries. Consequently, the public tends to view any psychic who is not a member of the CS Military or a loyal CS citizen with fear and distrust." (Psyscape, page 145)

What happens to "rogues, dissidents, criminals, and dangerous revolutionaries" in the hands of the Coalition?

If you want to enter CS territory as a psychic you do need to registered, that's true, but they're not exactly going out to neighboring farming communities and murdering minor psychics who won't get chipped. Probably handing out brochures though.

q.v. the quote above about the New West.

Not for anything they DID... not for any specific crime committed within Coalition territory... but because they exist in a way the CS does not approve, even in places the CS does not control.

Learning magic and practicing it is something you do, it's not something that you just exist as.
Shifters and Necromancers and Witches chose to form the pacts with dark forces.

Which is why they famously leave Mystics, Ley Line Walkers, and Techno-wizards completely alone, right?

But, again, the CS is claiming all lands. They're not saying "Stay out of the Coalition State of Missouri", they're saying "We have preemptively claimed all of Earth, even the parts no real human is using, and will kill you for not granting us our claim."

If you have a 100-room mansion with 100 family members living in it and a bunch of wolves break in and eat 90 of your family members, so now you can only occupy 10 of the 100 rooms, you should just let the wolves occupy the rooms which are empty because it's former residents are dead?

So, again, D-Bees are animals? D-Bees are predatory animals that need to be exterminated for the good of humanity? Because, again, you are blaming all D-Bees for the death of many humans, and saying that the killing of all of them is justified because humans died to D-Bees (and, you know, fire, flood, explosion, disease, and any other number of consequences of an at least partially man-made, world-wide, apocalypse).

And, again, it was never the Coalition's house in the first place.

That's not "someone is breaking into your house constantly"... you don't actually own most of the places you've decided are being invaded.
That is deciding that you own the town, and anyone who you don't like needs to die if they won't get out of this town.
How long have they lived in town? Doesn't matter, it's your town.

This is the crux of the issue here - property rights. They are obviously subjective and entirely an artificial concept, so the issue is how one can fairly determine who should own property.

The CS has borders. In fact, the CS recently lost control of part of its nation (Quebec), and can no longer enforce its laws there. But, they feel that they're entitled to the rest of the continent, regardless of who controls the territory. However, they like to act outside their borders, killing those who act in a way that they disagree with.

The CS can perceive the Earth as their town all they want... but it doesn't mean they're not blowing up people's houses for the crime of not being [the right kind of] human. The CS does not speak for Earth, nor does it speak for humanity.

The CS can more reliably speak for Earth and Humanity than a place like Lazlo or Tolkeen or the FoM which are ruled over by supernatural extra-dimensional magic practitioners who are very disconnected from the vulnerability your average human shares. As diabolical as Karl Prosek is, as aberrant as Joseph Prosek is, either of them are far more capable of empathizing with the plight of the common human than creatures like The Three or Plato or even Nostrous Dunscon. These are alien creatures who lack perspective.

Notably, I believe that Plato is entirely likely to have actual Empathy, and the ability to read minds; I'd say he can judge humans quite well, even if his perspective is different. Should Prosek be forbidden from ruling over humans of the working class, as he's never been part of it? What would Prosek know about being a Lowlie? Or a farmer in Canada? How many do you think he's worked beside?

Lazlo is one example of a place where humans and D-bees live side by side. So is Houstown (they've elected a Titan as their Mayor for many years, because of his deeds). So was Port Horus, before it became convenient for the CS to wipe it off the map.

Even Tarn who remains SDC and would be more in touch is clearly in the circle of these creatures and it would be understandable by those aware of this would think she's possibly under their thrall.

"So, we should listen to those who are ignorant of the people involved, instead of the many humans who actually know them. We should trust our uninformed judgement, not that of, say, a Cyber-knight by the name of Thorpe." Or, for that matter, all Cyber-knights, since the order is openly accepting of D-bees.

Again, your argument seems to come down to "The Coalition is justified in their genocide because they lay claim to lands inhabited by others, claiming they require lebensraum for the real people of Earth, not the subhumans who already live there. They are right to persecute those who fall outside their definition of 'normal people', since it enhances their security. Their view that humans who know those D-Bees and vouch for their truthfulness is suspect, because those humans may be dupes, useful idiots, or mind-controlled."

And do we want to get into the active measures the Coalition takes to keep its own citizens ignorant? Their persecution of scholars and scientists who publish unauthorized material? Do we want to go back to "human experimentation and the creation of subhuman slave-soldiers, and the execution of any of those species outside their control"?

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

[/quote]

You mean "humanhood"?[/quote]

Depending on how PC you want to be, sure.

Otherwise youre ignorant sexist or both. I'm not even going to entertain whatever else you're going to say.

Be fair, you never were going to entertain anything I said, no matter how correct or reasonable.

Maybe ask the women in your life if they like the idea of an indestructible rapist. let alone one with magic or psychic powers.

I know multiple women who have been raped.
I went through Rape Action Committee training at the local Women's Center, in fact, and have had quite a few conversations about the subject of rape with people who have experienced it.
Whether or not the rapist was indestructible was a moot point, believe it or not; it was the rape that was the evil act, and normal humans commit that act every day without magic, psychic powers, or indestructability.
Also, weird of you to just up and assume that Floopers are rapists.
Again, most are Anarchist or Unprincipled, and I see rape as more of an Evil act in general, more fitting a Miscreant alignment or worse. Not something your average Flooper would engage in.

D-Bees with powers--and, again, many/most don't really have any to speak of--are just like anybody else with power; yes, they can abuse it and do evil things.
A human with a gun is more dangerous than a human without. Should we kill all humans with guns?
A human with a billion dollars is more dangerous than a human without. Should we kill all billionaires?
Men are on average bigger and stronger than women. Does that mean women should fear and/or kill all men?

Life is full of differing power levels; that's no reason to commit genocide, just out of fear that people with power MIGHT abuse their power in evil ways.

The Coalition abuses their power in evil ways routinely.
I wouldn't say that's a reason to kill every citizen of the Coalition States, just to change the nature of the government to something better.

[barna10]

Aermas and Killer Cyborg, you're both going off the rails, please stop (or at least one of you is attempting to Troll, and if so, get a life)

Bigotry, racism, genocide, rape, etc. are all real-world issues. Yes there are reflections of these in-game. The second you start conflating these into their real-world equivalents, you've crossed a line.

Killer Cyborg is 100% correct: having powers and being more capable of doing something doesn't change the act or make it anymore evil. Humans with no powers commit plenty of evil...and good, and I'm sure beings with powers ALSO do good things.

If you were to seriously sit down at my table and bring these attitudes with you, and you were not trying to RP, I would not let you play. There is no justification for racism or bigotry.

And no, saying "humans in drag" is not a transphobic slur. Please stop trying to incite something that is not there.

[Aermas]

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.]

Depending on how PC you want to be, sure.


Be fair, you never were going to entertain anything I said, no matter how correct or reasonable.


I know multiple women who have been raped.
I went through Rape Action Committee training at the local Women's Center, in fact, and have had quite a few conversations about the subject of rape with people who have experienced it.
Whether or not the rapist was indestructible was a moot point, believe it or not; it was the rape that was the evil act, and normal humans commit that act every day without magic, psychic powers, or indestructability.
Also, weird of you to just up and assume that Floopers are rapists.
Again, most are Anarchist or Unprincipled, and I see rape as more of an Evil act in general, more fitting a Miscreant alignment or worse. Not something your average Flooper would engage in.

D-Bees with powers--and, again, many/most don't really have any to speak of--are just like anybody else with power; yes, they can abuse it and do evil things.
A human with a gun is more dangerous than a human without. Should we kill all humans with guns?
A human with a billion dollars is more dangerous than a human without. Should we kill all billionaires?
Men are on average bigger and stronger than women. Does that mean women should fear and/or kill all men?

Life is full of differing power levels; that's no reason to commit genocide, just out of fear that people with power MIGHT abuse their power in evil ways.

The Coalition abuses their power in evil ways routinely.
I wouldn't say that's a reason to kill every citizen of the Coalition States, just to change the nature of the government to something better.

Be as flippant as you want, I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation with you.
Also I never said Floopers were rapists. You keep making wild assumptions instead of actually addressing what I'm talking about.

So let me take a step back & maybe rephrase for you.

For one, you keep obsessing about in-game Alignments, as, & you need to understand that those do not matter to the conversation. We are not talking about statistical outliers, or whatever. We are talking about the THREAT posed by ANY magic user, psychic, or D-Bee which has powers, abilities, & protections, that far outclassed that of a regular human. Now, you can pretend that this threat isn't real, I don't care, it doesn't make it less true. A being which can slaughter an entire population & never have a scratch on it regardless of how much damage we try to do REMOVES OUR ABILITY TO BE EQUAL AND MAKES HUMANITY EXIST PURELY ON THE WHIMS OF THESE BEINGS. There "alignment" does not matter, a human living their day to day life doesn't get to see the stat sheet you do. They just see a being that can melt the strongest walls walking around unchecked. Is it friendly? Is it subversive? Will it suddenly fly into a rage if it gets wet? Who knows? It could do literally whatever it wanted to me & I would be absolutely POWERLESS to stop it. I wouldn't even be able to hurt it back in self defense. Gee I wish there was a Juicer in deadboy armor between me & it cause I'm just a woman trying to buy food at the market & I never wanted my planet to be the drain hole of the Megaverse in the first place!

You mention how a gun makes someone have power over another. In many countries there are restrictions, licenses & regulations in the creation, distribution, & ownership of firearms or, at least the semblance of regulation. In the CS psychics are similarly regulated because of a similar source of danger an individual has with that sort of power, yet so many in this thread seem to view this as a bad thing. Heck, the CS tried to give magic the same discretion but people just kept summoning demons.

[barna10]

Be as flippant as you want, I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation with you.
Also I never said Floopers were rapists. You keep making wild assumptions instead of actually addressing what I'm talking about.

So let me take a step back & maybe rephrase for you.

For one, you keep obsessing about in-game Alignments, as, & you need to understand that those do not matter to the conversation. We are not talking about statistical outliers, or whatever. We are talking about the THREAT posed by ANY magic user, psychic, or D-Bee which has powers, abilities, & protections, that far outclassed that of a regular human. Now, you can pretend that this threat isn't real, I don't care, it doesn't make it less true. A being which can slaughter an entire population & never have a scratch on it regardless of how much damage we try to do REMOVES OUR ABILITY TO BE EQUAL AND MAKES HUMANITY EXIST PURELY ON THE WHIMS OF THESE BEINGS. There "alignment" does not matter, a human living their day to day life doesn't get to see the stat sheet you do. They just see a being that can melt the strongest walls walking around unchecked. Is it friendly? Is it subversive? Will it suddenly fly into a rage if it gets wet? Who knows? It could do literally whatever it wanted to me & I would be absolutely POWERLESS to stop it. I wouldn't even be able to hurt it back in self defense. Gee I wish there was a Juicer in deadboy armor between me & it cause I'm just a woman trying to buy food at the market & I never wanted my planet to be the drain hole of the Megaverse in the first place!

You mention how a gun makes someone have power over another. In many countries there are restrictions, licenses & regulations in the creation, distribution, & ownership of firearms or, at least the semblance of regulation. In the CS psychics are similarly regulated because of a similar source of danger an individual has with that sort of power, yet so many in this thread seem to view this as a bad thing. Heck, the CS tried to give magic the same discretion but people just kept summoning demons.

My oh my....fear. Fear leads to Fascism

You are wrong on so many levels. By your rules, all martial artists should be put to death because they are dangerous. Body builders are suspect. Smart people should not be trusted. Try reading A Flower for Algernon. This is also the same logic that get's people to pass laws requiring Pit Bulls to be put down...even though they are not even close to the most dangerous dog breed.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Magic does not make one evil, evil people make magic evil.

Let's all remember this exchange...

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

You mean "humanhood"? Otherwise youre ignorant sexist or both. I'm not even going to entertain whatever else you're going to say. Maybe ask the women in your life if they like the idea of an indestructible rapist.let alone one with magic or psychic powers.

You were responding about Floopers. Your words, Aermas

Again, please stop trolling. Or at least start making mature, logical arguments.

[Aermas]

Be as flippant as you want, I'm trying to have a legitimate conversation with you.
Also I never said Floopers were rapists. You keep making wild assumptions instead of actually addressing what I'm talking about.

So let me take a step back & maybe rephrase for you.

For one, you keep obsessing about in-game Alignments, as, & you need to understand that those do not matter to the conversation. We are not talking about statistical outliers, or whatever. We are talking about the THREAT posed by ANY magic user, psychic, or D-Bee which has powers, abilities, & protections, that far outclassed that of a regular human. Now, you can pretend that this threat isn't real, I don't care, it doesn't make it less true. A being which can slaughter an entire population & never have a scratch on it regardless of how much damage we try to do REMOVES OUR ABILITY TO BE EQUAL AND MAKES HUMANITY EXIST PURELY ON THE WHIMS OF THESE BEINGS. There "alignment" does not matter, a human living their day to day life doesn't get to see the stat sheet you do. They just see a being that can melt the strongest walls walking around unchecked. Is it friendly? Is it subversive? Will it suddenly fly into a rage if it gets wet? Who knows? It could do literally whatever it wanted to me & I would be absolutely POWERLESS to stop it. I wouldn't even be able to hurt it back in self defense. Gee I wish there was a Juicer in deadboy armor between me & it cause I'm just a woman trying to buy food at the market & I never wanted my planet to be the drain hole of the Megaverse in the first place!

You mention how a gun makes someone have power over another. In many countries there are restrictions, licenses & regulations in the creation, distribution, & ownership of firearms or, at least the semblance of regulation. In the CS psychics are similarly regulated because of a similar source of danger an individual has with that sort of power, yet so many in this thread seem to view this as a bad thing. Heck, the CS tried to give magic the same discretion but people just kept summoning demons.

My oh my....fear. Fear leads to Fascism

You are wrong on so many levels. By your rules, all martial artists should be put to death because they are dangerous. Body builders are suspect. Smart people should not be trusted. Try reading A Flower for Algernon. This is also the same logic that get's people to pass laws requiring Pit Bulls to be put down...even though they are not even close to the most dangerous dog breed.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Magic does not make one evil, evil people make magic evil.

Let's all remember this exchange...

Hm.
Loaded question.
As instead which species overall I DO think is most threatening to humanity, because I'll probably say "humanity."
That's the base perspective you need to start with.

Also, what do you mean by "threatening?"
Floopers pose zero threat to our species directly, but the fact that they're MDC magical beings seems to pose a threat to the self-perceived Manhood of certain factions of humanity, as if their existence somehow makes humans lesser.
This is in fact one of the overall themes of racism and often genocide.

You mean "humanhood"? Otherwise youre ignorant sexist or both. I'm not even going to entertain whatever else you're going to say. Maybe ask the women in your life if they like the idea of an indestructible rapist.let alone one with magic or psychic powers.

You were responding about Floopers. Your words, Aermas

Again, please stop trolling. Or at least start making mature, logical arguments.

I was responding to Cyborg talking about how MDC creatures apparently make men insecure about their masculinity. Thats why i used the words indestructible being instead of Flooper. They were being sexist & ignorant. Just because you don't like someone else's arguments, it doesn't mean it's trolling.

Fear leads to a lot of things beyond silly little platitudes too. Fear of the dark created lighting technologies, from campfires & torches to streetlights. Fear of disease & pain created medicine. Fear of predators created weapons & walls

Fear is a GOOD emotion to have as long as its not debilitating

It should also be said that you keep acting like summoning demons, & being a slave to vampire entities is somehow equal to working out or reading books, yet you call ME the troll

[barna10]

I was responding to Cyborg talking about how MDC creatures apparently make men insecure about their masculinity. Thats why i used the words indestructible being instead of Flooper. They were being sexist & ignorant. Just because you don't like someone else's arguments, it doesn't mean it's trolling.

Fear leads to a lot of things beyond silly little platitudes too. Fear of the dark created lighting technologies, from campfires & torches to streetlights. Fear of disease & pain created medicine. Fear of predators created weapons & walls

Fear is a GOOD emotion to have as long as its not debilitating

That you are using standard xenophobic tropes to make your point makes me think you are a troll: "They are going to rape our women!" , "They are big and scary therefore we must kill them!"

You are also invoking the Satanic Panic of the eighties...in a talk about a role-playing game....ironic.

It should also be said that you keep acting like summoning demons, & being a slave to vampire entities is somehow equal to working out or reading books, yet you call ME the troll

Since you are now making things up, yes you are trolling.
And, since you seem to be equating a mage to a summoner of demons or a vampire intelligence, you are again invoking xenophobic tactics.

[Mack]

Topic Locked for obvious reasons.