Shapeshifters and P.B.

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ardashir
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Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by ardashir »

I've noticed how several shapeshifter races in the game seem to have oddly low P.B. scores. Like the Changeling in the first Conversion Book. They feel even odder when you look at the Changeling super-spy in Rifts Mercenaries, Sonya "the Face" on page 57. She has a 'normal' PB of 10 but when she's in her usual human form, her P.B. score is 24. Does anyone else feel that shapeshifters should be able to change their P.B. scores with some effort, if only briefly?
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Warshield73
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

ardashir wrote:I've noticed how several shapeshifter races in the game seem to have oddly low P.B. scores. Like the Changeling in the first Conversion Book. They feel even odder when you look at the Changeling super-spy in Rifts Mercenaries, Sonya "the Face" on page 57. She has a 'normal' PB of 10 but when she's in her usual human form, her P.B. score is 24. Does anyone else feel that shapeshifters should be able to change their P.B. scores with some effort, if only briefly?

What you are asking for is what most shapeshifters can already do and you can see this in the stats for the Face that you listed.

When she/they (Changelings have no gender) is not using her powers her PB is 10. When using her powers she can have almost any PB. Most GMs in my experience limit it to the max for the species they are imitating.
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Crimson Dynamo
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

Do the actual rules state that though? Citing an NPC's statblock doesn't really help when trying to find official rulings.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Do the actual rules state that though? Citing an NPC's statblock doesn't really help when trying to find official rulings.

Citing official NPC's doesn't help with official rules? Is this a Zen thing? Never mind.

It says they take on the appearance, PB is the characters appearance. If you say a shapeshifter does not get the PB of the person or species they are mimicking then they cannot pass for that person or species. The fact that most if not all the changelings have there PB described as variable or give two different values should be enough to say that this is how the power works.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

So, yeah, there isn't an official rule stating that and this is just a house rule (albeit a sensible house rule, but a house rule nevertheless).

There's plenty of NPCs that don't follow the actual rules, just FYI. That's what makes them NPCs, in fact.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by hup7 »

The Chiang-ku can imitate a specific individual (10%+5% per level) so they should be able to 'mimic' the PB, but they do have a fairly low chance.

However, does having a high PB give you the charm/impress? "The metamorphosis does not instill any of the abilities of the animal or person the dragon is imitating".

Further on the same topic, what about horror factor?
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

hup7 wrote:The Chiang-ku can imitate a specific individual (10%+5% per level) so they should be able to 'mimic' the PB, but they do have a fairly low chance.

However, does having a high PB give you the charm/impress? "The metamorphosis does not instill any of the abilities of the animal or person the dragon is imitating".

Further on the same topic, what about horror factor?

This is one of those things that is really poorly defined. Changelings, like chang-ku have really well defined shape changing abilities on what they can change into and how specific it can be but the rules are a little vague. If I'm a dragon and shapeshift into a human can I choose a PB or do I have to roll it?

PB is the value of a person's appearance so at the very least if you are imitating a person or species that is the PB people would see. The abilities of Charm and Impress are poorly defined as well but it seems to just be an aspect of appearance so I have always said yes.

However, my experience as a GM on this subject is different as one of my original players ran a hatchling Great Horned Dragon with a PB of 30. This means most of the time when he was changing his shape his PB, along with the charm and impress, was going down.

Horror Factor is tough, if you're a changeling passing as a wolfen the HF is a part of the physical appearance but to me that is way more up to the GM and really depends on how powerful a shapeshifter you are.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

I would say if you are coping the appearance of a specific person, you would use the targets PB because that is how they look. If copping a general race keep your base PB.
Some times PB tells you can do X but does not spell out how.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Blue_Lion wrote:I would say if you are coping the appearance of a specific person, you would use the targets PB because that is how they look. If copping a general race keep your base PB.
Some times PB tells you can do X but does not spell out how.

I would say the problem with this is how much this would mean. Never mind a changeling only being able to be below average humans and extremely ugly elf. This means that unless the player is imitating a specific person they will have a hard time blending in. From the other direction if that hatchling dragon tries to be a random orc he is going to be one HOT orc I mean my goodness. The other issue is that it contradicts the NPCs we have.

As for PB not spelling it out, to be honest I never considered this an issue. In 3o years of running Rifts the only issue we had was the HF thing and in the end we decided if the HF is due to some aspect of looks or reputation than you get it and if it is due to something else then no. I guess people get caught up on them not getting the physical abilities but PB is not an ability it is simply how attractive your appearance is to others.
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Kraynic
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Kraynic »

This is totally a house rule sort of thing, but in the fantasy game I don't automatically give the charm/impress roll along with the P.B. of someone that is shape shifted (mostly changelings in that setting). The reason I don't is due to the changeling species being asexual and genderless (except for whatever they are emulating). How does a species that isn't wired for physical sexual attraction going to be able to "weaponize" physical beauty when they don't really understand the attraction to begin with? Not only that, they would need to know and understand how that attraction works in different species. I don't expect that humans and wolfen have the exact same standards or responses to whatever stands for beauty for either species (and even different groups within those 2 species). I see the raw stat as the potential and the charm/impress as being able to "weaponize" the amount of beauty the character possesses. Just because a changeling can emulate the one doesn't mean they can emulate the other. It doesn't mean they can't either. For me, it makes sense to limit the charm/impress to only being usable on species they have emulated and interacted with a lot, and have had the time to study that side of behavior.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Warshield73 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:I would say if you are coping the appearance of a specific person, you would use the targets PB because that is how they look. If copping a general race keep your base PB.
Some times PB tells you can do X but does not spell out how.

I would say the problem with this is how much this would mean. Never mind a changeling only being able to be below average humans and extremely ugly elf. This means that unless the player is imitating a specific person they will have a hard time blending in. From the other direction if that hatchling dragon tries to be a random orc he is going to be one HOT orc I mean my goodness. The other issue is that it contradicts the NPCs we have.

As for PB not spelling it out, to be honest I never considered this an issue. In 3o years of running Rifts the only issue we had was the HF thing and in the end we decided if the HF is due to some aspect of looks or reputation than you get it and if it is due to something else then no. I guess people get caught up on them not getting the physical abilities but PB is not an ability it is simply how attractive your appearance is to others.

But allot simper to track the character stat as well as giving the base PB meaning.
Also it would be easier to create an attractive template if you are coping an attractive person.
As I under stand it the character is not standing in front of a mirror sculpting what he looks like but doing a full change in short time.
So a non-spefic elf would be the character with even features(so PB remains the same), a specific elf(or random elf) would look just like the one he is copping(so PB stays the same).

Honestly it just makes more sense to me than allowing the shape changer to choose that making the base PB stat pointless.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Warshield73
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:I would say if you are coping the appearance of a specific person, you would use the targets PB because that is how they look. If copping a general race keep your base PB.
Some times PB tells you can do X but does not spell out how.

I would say the problem with this is how much this would mean. Never mind a changeling only being able to be below average humans and extremely ugly elf. This means that unless the player is imitating a specific person they will have a hard time blending in. From the other direction if that hatchling dragon tries to be a random orc he is going to be one HOT orc I mean my goodness. The other issue is that it contradicts the NPCs we have.

As for PB not spelling it out, to be honest I never considered this an issue. In 3o years of running Rifts the only issue we had was the HF thing and in the end we decided if the HF is due to some aspect of looks or reputation than you get it and if it is due to something else then no. I guess people get caught up on them not getting the physical abilities but PB is not an ability it is simply how attractive your appearance is to others.

But allot simper to track the character stat as well as giving the base PB meaning.
Also it would be easier to create an attractive template if you are coping an attractive person.
As I under stand it the character is not standing in front of a mirror sculpting what he looks like but doing a full change in short time.
So a non-spefic elf would be the character with even features(so PB remains the same), a specific elf(or random elf) would look just like the one he is copping(so PB stays the same).

Honestly it just makes more sense to me than allowing the shape changer to choose that making the base PB stat pointless.

OK the problem here is this power is supposed to make, at least temporarily, there actual PB irrelevant. Much the way psychic body field would make there SDC and HP temporarily irrelevant. Now I could understand making them roll the PB for that race but making the Dragon shift into an orc with a 30 PB or changeling shift into an elf with a PB of 8 you are basically neutering the power. As I said before my biggest problem with this discussion is we have lots of NPC's with shapeshifting and they have the alternate PB stat listed even thought they are not imitating a specific person.

I understand having them roll the PB of the race, or not giving them the charm/impress. This kind of rigidity on a power that for races like changelings is a defining ability just feels like punishing the player for taking that power.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

Most of the problem comes from P.B. itself, rather than shapeshifting. There should have been other benefits assigned to it rather than it acting as a pseudo skill (especially since it duplicates existing skills). At least M.A. makes a bit more sense since that's your actual personality, but it has the same problem. But that's what happens when you have a game system that's essentially what comes across as something a 12-year-old would cobble together while trying not (but completely failing) to plagarize D&D.

Personally I just have them assume the appearance (P.B.) of a completely average person of the chosen race/species unless they're duplicating a specific person, in which case they assume that P.B. But then again, we don't really use the Charm/Impress aspect of P.B. anyway, so it's really a moot point when it comes down to it. At least in our campaigns.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Warshield73 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:I would say if you are coping the appearance of a specific person, you would use the targets PB because that is how they look. If copping a general race keep your base PB.
Some times PB tells you can do X but does not spell out how.

I would say the problem with this is how much this would mean. Never mind a changeling only being able to be below average humans and extremely ugly elf. This means that unless the player is imitating a specific person they will have a hard time blending in. From the other direction if that hatchling dragon tries to be a random orc he is going to be one HOT orc I mean my goodness. The other issue is that it contradicts the NPCs we have.

As for PB not spelling it out, to be honest I never considered this an issue. In 3o years of running Rifts the only issue we had was the HF thing and in the end we decided if the HF is due to some aspect of looks or reputation than you get it and if it is due to something else then no. I guess people get caught up on them not getting the physical abilities but PB is not an ability it is simply how attractive your appearance is to others.

But allot simper to track the character stat as well as giving the base PB meaning.
Also it would be easier to create an attractive template if you are coping an attractive person.
As I under stand it the character is not standing in front of a mirror sculpting what he looks like but doing a full change in short time.
So a non-spefic elf would be the character with even features(so PB remains the same), a specific elf(or random elf) would look just like the one he is copping(so PB stays the same).

Honestly it just makes more sense to me than allowing the shape changer to choose that making the base PB stat pointless.

OK the problem here is this power is supposed to make, at least temporarily, there actual PB irrelevant. Much the way psychic body field would make there SDC and HP temporarily irrelevant. Now I could understand making them roll the PB for that race but making the Dragon shift into an orc with a 30 PB or changeling shift into an elf with a PB of 8 you are basically neutering the power. As I said before my biggest problem with this discussion is we have lots of NPC's with shapeshifting and they have the alternate PB stat listed even thought they are not imitating a specific person.

I understand having them roll the PB of the race, or not giving them the charm/impress. This kind of rigidity on a power that for races like changelings is a defining ability just feels like punishing the player for taking that power.

Personal body field does not make SDC/HP irreverent because any effects of damage to them remain the power just protects said SDC/HP for a limited time.

It is not that I am nerfing the power but you are given it a unlisted bonus that you think it should have.(also not every shape shifter is stated to copy the appearance of specific people.) Honestly if you look allowing change of the PB is not allowed for the Changeling. PG 83 states the stats do not change regardless of size shape or apearance. So the fact I allow changing PB is when coping specific people generous. The text does seam to imply they have to be coping the appearance not just race.

While the changeling can copy the appearance of a individual the power never claims they can pass undetected when coping no one.


So reading the power a changeling(and appears dragon as well) shape changing is to copy a specific creature and not general race. So a changeling can not look like a race without coping a specific individual of that race. This means to be an elf they would have to have seen at least 1 elf in some way to copy that elf.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Shapeshifters and P.B.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

It really depends on what the GM will put up with (aka their house rules)

Looking at this as a GM & off the cuff: the char can only have a PB Max up to the their natural PB.
To get past this off the cuff ruling the player would need write up a background (more than just a few sentences) that would explain why they could have a PB greater than their nat PB.
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