Body Armor creation and customization

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bkackl01
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Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by bkackl01 »

I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Shamrock 'Slinger »

I guess there could be a variety of rulings for skills needed to create armor from scratch. From the choices included in the RUE skill section:

1. Field Armorer and basic electronics: Allows the creation of a light body armor with simple wiring hook ups for radio and minimal equipment. Won't be able to actually fabricate the plates or armor pieces, but can place on a harness for use.

1a. Field armorer with electronic engineering. Same as above just better electronic equipment to go with it just as optics, sensors, and displays.

2. Mechanical engineering and electronics (basic or engineering). Similar to above but with the ability to go to a medium range of armor. The level of electronics would determine if you can only simply install or completely fabricate the electronic system for the armor.

3. Weapon, robotic, and electronic engineering. Capable of putting together up to a heavy suit of armor, and whatever HUD, optics, and electronic system that can be thought of, such as a small automated weapon on the shoulder if normal human size.

As I was writing this, I wondered what skill would be needed for turning these into environmental instead of just a harness with a bunch of plates. I would warrant that NBC warfare would be enough to give the skillset on how to make a sealed suit.

However, this is a TON of skills to have and unless it's an operator, it's tough to have all these skills from the start.

There really ought to be a dedicated skill for armor creation, which may mean some sort of smithing or fabricating skill requisite. Unless the plates are already manufactured they'll have to be made from material and it is not like they are stamped steel. As a GM I'd probably allow mechanical and electronic engineering to cover a great chunk of armor customization, but weapon engineering would really sell it for more customization.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

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bkackl01 wrote:I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.

Well, the cheap out way would be to point you toward the Hardware: Analytical Genius Power Category (rough equivalent to OCC) found in Palladium's Heroes Unlimited Line (Main book pg129 -130) has a "Special Skill" titled "Build/Modify Amor".

Though if you want to restrict yourself to Rifts then it's a bit more complicated. Armor repair is mentioned in Leather Working (Technical Skill, limited to Leather), Field Armorer & Maintenance Expert (Military, limited to minor repairs), Weapons Engineer (Mechanical, which requires Mechanical Engineering)).

Weapons Engineer (and Field Armorer) would allow you to install weapons/weapons mounts IMHO. Automated weapons likely require additional skills to setup (Computer Programming would be one).

Looking at the Techno-Wizard, they don't have WE/FA in their OCC skills, they can certainly take said skills, and they can still work on body armor. This IMHO means that you could get away with just Mechanical Engineer, possibly with penalties for mechanical type customizations. New/Replacement Avionics are going to come down to their related skill (ex. new Radio requires Radio: Basic, a HUD likely more complicated need Sensory Skill, Optics, and Computer Programming).

Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:As I was writing this, I wondered what skill would be needed for turning these into environmental instead of just a harness with a bunch of plates. I would warrant that NBC warfare would be enough to give the skillset on how to make a sealed suit.

If the Hardware: AG special skill and their starting skills are anything to go by, no you wouldn't need NBC Warfare skill. While EBA aren't part of the setting AFAIK, the skill does allow "all forms of body armor", which could be interpreted as EBA.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

bkackl01 wrote:I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.


For creating tech armor like EBA and such from scratch, skills would only be a small part of the picture.

You'd need whatever machinery they use to manufacture body armor in the first place, and that's likely to be pretty hefty. EBA tends to have little to no steel or ferrous metals, and instead deals with alloys like titanium, as well as plastics and ceramics.
So you'd need whatever machinery they use to press, stamp, injection mold, or whatever method they use to form the armor, as well as potentially whatever equipment they use to melt and deal with molten metal/ceramics/plastics they use.
This would probably be covered by Mechanical Engineer, but could well be something like "Armor Manufacturing" or some other skill we haven't seen.

We know that repairing MDC tech armor is generally something only done at large cities, which indicates that even the repair requires significant resources and/or infrastructure:
SB1 55
The Black Market, CS malls, some burbs, and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor... still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities. A good rule of thumb is if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair mega-damage armor and robots; not always, but often. Unfortunately, places with this level of technology are not all that common or easily accessible.
Known repair facilities in the Coalition States: All the CS capital cities and major industrial communities can provide such services, if not by the CS, by the black market operating in the Burbs or nearby shanty towns.


It also lists Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Free State of Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.

A place that did NOT make the cut:
Los Alamo: 20th century tech, with limited cybernetics. A known creator of Juicers, so they're not too podunk. Population 76,000
With that population, and as a known creator of Juicers, it doesn't seem likely that they have a shortage of decent Rifts tech in spite of the general 20th Century tech description. They have to have some number of operators and other techies there, but they didn't make the cut for places that can repair EBA.

I believe there are some skills in later books, and likely RUE Operators, that are mentioned as being able to repair body armor to a limited degree, but that probably involves tricky stuff like welding titanium and similar alloys, or mega-damage plastics, OR involves some shoddier repairs using the MDC equivalent of Bondo or something.
Or patching holes with lesser materials that provide more limited protection than a real repair job would.

So keep all that in mind when it comes to manufacturing MDC tech-based armor.
:ok:
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Shamrock 'Slinger »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
bkackl01 wrote:I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.


For [u]creating[/i] tech armor like EBA and such from scratch, skills would only be a small part of the picture.

You'd need whatever machinery they use to manufacture body armor in the first place, and that's likely to be pretty hefty. EBA tends to have little to no steel or ferrous metals, and instead deals with alloys like titanium, as well as plastics and ceramics.
So you'd need whatever machinery they use to press, stamp, injection mold, or whatever method they use to form the armor, as well as potentially whatever equipment they use to melt and deal with molten metal/ceramics/plastics they use.
This would probably be covered by Mechanical Engineer, but could well be something like "Armor Manufacturing" or some other skill we haven't seen.

We know that repairing MDC tech armor is generally something only done at large cities, which indicates that even the repair requires significant resources and/or infrastructure:
SB1 55
The Black Market, CS malls, some burbs, and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor... still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities. A good rule of thumb is if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair mega-damage armor and robots; not always, but often. Unfortunately, places with this level of technology are not all that common or easily accessible.
Known repair facilities in the Coalition States: All the CS capital cities and major industrial communities can provide such services, if not by the CS, by the black market operating in the Burbs or nearby shanty towns.


It also lists Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Free State of Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.

A place that did NOT make the cut:
Los Alamo: 20th century tech, with limited cybernetics. A known creator of Juicers, so they're not too podunk. Population 76,000
With that population, and as a known creator of Juicers, it doesn't seem likely that they have a shortage of decent Rifts tech in spite of the general 20th Century tech description. They have to have some number of operators and other techies there, but they didn't make the cut for places that can repair EBA.

I believe there are some skills in later books, and likely RUE Operators, that are mentioned as being able to repair body armor to a limited degree, but that probably involves tricky stuff like welding titanium and similar alloys, or mega-damage plastics, OR involves some shoddier repairs using the MDC equivalent of Bondo or something.
Or patching holes with lesser materials that provide more limited protection than a real repair job would.

So keep all that in mind when it comes to manufacturing MDC tech-based armor.
:ok:



I think that's the crux of making the actual armor itself. Unless the PC has a large shop and some homebrewed skills, it'll take a facility to make the MDC materials. It's definitely more than just taking some steel plates and shaping it.

Most of the skills deal with weapons or just the repair of armor not complete creation.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

I would say field armor for basic modifications. (it is a multi-displine skill with that draws from both mechanical and electrical background.)

Weapons eng would allow mounting of weapons.

A mechanical eng should be able to design a new suit or make significant changes.(It is common for mechanical devices like cars to have electrical systems included in them.)

Electrical eng could design new electrons packages for them.

TW skill to add TW features.

I am of the mind set that repairs and mods should only require 1 skill roll to do. After all you do not require a robot pilot to roll piloting and read sensor equipment to shoot a gun. The idea of rolling every possible skill for repair and build actions, but not combat actions is an unfair bias that greatly reduces success.

Lets say some one had mechanical and electrical eng at 50% changing out a starter on a car would reduce the odds of success down to 25% if you had to roll both.

(Now I might allow bonuses or penalties based on presents of other skills. Such as a penalty to TW skill to add a feature to armor if you do not have field armor, or mechanical eng. Or give a bonus to design a car if you have automobile mechanics. -other wise only the skills mechanical and electrical eng would be needed)
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Although…
The Leatherworking skill specifies it can only be used to create SDC armor, but I’d argue that the existence of MDC leather/hide armor could indicate the existence of a skill that would allow a character to make it.
Advanced Leatherworking or something.
And Fury Beetles and certain other critters can have armor made from their chitin/shells.

While these systems are not environmentally sealed of high tech, that sort of thing should be able to be added by someone with the right engineering skills. Same with the other electronics that come standard with EBA.
So if you’re not hung up on using high tech materials, that might be a path.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

Patchwork and slapped-together non-environmental MDC armor would be possible with a few different skills, and in not too terribly long a time period.

Trying to build a suit of custom, full-environmental body armor or even duplicating existing ones would require a special facility and ages just to design let alone craft by hand.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by guardiandashi »

my thought is that the existence of "field armorer" implies the existence of an armorer skill
if you look at heroes unlimited and ninjas and super spies there are specializations of armorer such as armorer aircraft and others

mechanical engineer, allows you to work on (and design) mechanical designs EXCEPT robotics Mechanical systems as the mechanical engineer is the most advanced mechanica skill until you add advanced specializations like robotics, or starships

so my thought is as long as you aren't building a high level exoskeleton, a power armor or robot vehicle its definitely enough or more than is needed.
working on electrical systems (other than really basic ones you can get by, but to do it right you either need at least s specialist electronics skill, such as radio, sensors etc otherwise you need basic/advanced electronics, until working on exos or above
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

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Killer Cyborg wrote:For [u]creating[/i] tech armor like EBA and such from scratch, skills would only be a small part of the picture.

I agree, though I have to wonder if something like this would be BEST handled by not having an actual skill roll(s) involved due to complexity of what is actually be done (not that actual character skill knowledge should be ignored since Palladium's skill list is far from comprehensive*).

From a skill perspective you need skills to handle shaping materials (vary by material), radio basic to install radios, sewing/tailor/leather working to handle creation of the "underlayer", (optionally) knowledge to create EBA features (gas filtration & circulation, temperature shielding, radiation shielding, seals, etc), install computer features (computer repair), and if we have a computer you're going to need to program it, mount the protective plates, mount exotic features (weapons, special optics, force fields, jump boots, climbing gear are all examples), etc.

For something like what the OP is asking for, I do think it's better to just say that you took the time to get it right, and not have a skill check(s). That or you have to adapt the previously mentioned HU power category skill for general use in some way**.

There is also the rabbit hole of how far down the detailed creation process does one want to go? Is the character going to be responsible for every detail down to the placement/source of components and tools to make the components? That isn't to say I disagree they will need tools, the question is how far back does one want to go when one could simply adapt components on the market (which would include body armor replacements), which greatly simplifies things.

*if we all had to roll up ourselves as a Palladium Character fresh out of High School, I do not think I could do it, even using a "Modern" setting like HU.

**the skill could be adapted as is to be generally available, possibly with requirements. However, skills like it might be best treated as an "untrained" skill that you roll against, that can have modifiers based on selectable "trained" skills that are appropriate.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Crimson Dynamo »

I believe the point is that it doesn't matter what skill it would require.

The amount of technical expertise, access to materials, and most importantly, access to the necessary facilities is the real limiting factory. You're not going to build a set of slick, custom EBA on par with existing ones in your garage with your home set of tools anymore than you're going to build a Bugatti Veyron or an F-22 Raptor.

Could you cobble something together with scraps of other suits and MDC materials you've scavenged? Sure. Could you bolt on some patches to repair an existing suit? Sure. But you're not creating a pristine new suit from scratch. Even Tony Stark couldn't do that in the MCU; his only creation was a scrappy tin suit that fell apart 15 minutes after he got it working. He required a sophisticated A.I. and high-tech facility to do it, and those aren't easy (or cheap) to come across.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Crimson Dynamo wrote:I believe the point is that it doesn't matter what skill it would require.

The amount of technical expertise, access to materials, and most importantly, access to the necessary facilities is the real limiting factory. You're not going to build a set of slick, custom EBA on par with existing ones in your garage with your home set of tools anymore than you're going to build a Bugatti Veyron or an F-22 Raptor.

Could you cobble something together with scraps of other suits and MDC materials you've scavenged? Sure. Could you bolt on some patches to repair an existing suit? Sure. But you're not creating a pristine new suit from scratch. Even Tony Stark couldn't do that in the MCU; his only creation was a scrappy tin suit that fell apart 15 minutes after he got it working. He required a sophisticated A.I. and high-tech facility to do it, and those aren't easy (or cheap) to come across.

Defiantly something you would need a specialized shop/facility for. I would also think a computer with specialized programs for the design phase. I do not think a AI is neciary, tony stark could have built it without the AI but the AI helped speed up the design process.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by ardashir »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
bkackl01 wrote:I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.


For creating tech armor like EBA and such from scratch, skills would only be a small part of the picture.

You'd need whatever machinery they use to manufacture body armor in the first place, and that's likely to be pretty hefty. EBA tends to have little to no steel or ferrous metals, and instead deals with alloys like titanium, as well as plastics and ceramics.
So you'd need whatever machinery they use to press, stamp, injection mold, or whatever method they use to form the armor, as well as potentially whatever equipment they use to melt and deal with molten metal/ceramics/plastics they use.
This would probably be covered by Mechanical Engineer, but could well be something like "Armor Manufacturing" or some other skill we haven't seen.

We know that repairing MDC tech armor is generally something only done at large cities, which indicates that even the repair requires significant resources and/or infrastructure:
SB1 55
The Black Market, CS malls, some burbs, and some of the larger Coalition and non-CS communities offer repairs for body armor... still, availability is pretty limited. Only the most industrialized places have such facilities. A good rule of thumb is if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair mega-damage armor and robots; not always, but often. Unfortunately, places with this level of technology are not all that common or easily accessible.
Known repair facilities in the Coalition States: All the CS capital cities and major industrial communities can provide such services, if not by the CS, by the black market operating in the Burbs or nearby shanty towns.


It also lists Northern Gun, Manistique Imperium, Free State of Lazlo, Tolkeen, Whykin, Kingsdale, Fort El Dorado, and the Pecos Empire.

A place that did NOT make the cut:
Los Alamo: 20th century tech, with limited cybernetics. A known creator of Juicers, so they're not too podunk. Population 76,000
With that population, and as a known creator of Juicers, it doesn't seem likely that they have a shortage of decent Rifts tech in spite of the general 20th Century tech description. They have to have some number of operators and other techies there, but they didn't make the cut for places that can repair EBA.

I believe there are some skills in later books, and likely RUE Operators, that are mentioned as being able to repair body armor to a limited degree, but that probably involves tricky stuff like welding titanium and similar alloys, or mega-damage plastics, OR involves some shoddier repairs using the MDC equivalent of Bondo or something.
Or patching holes with lesser materials that provide more limited protection than a real repair job would.

So keep all that in mind when it comes to manufacturing MDC tech-based armor.
:ok:


On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

ardashir wrote:On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't

Well MercTown did not exist when SB1 was originally written (and missed in the editing process for the revised). Nor would I take that list in SB1o/r as final since it seems to be region focused (Domain of Man in NA).
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

ShadowLogan wrote:
ardashir wrote:On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't

Well MercTown did not exist when SB1 was originally written (and missed in the editing process for the revised). Nor would I take that list in SB1o/r as final since it seems to be region focused (Domain of Man in NA).


Yeah, a ton of new places have been created or expanded on since that list was published.
So it’s those KIND of places, but not that list exclusively.
I’d assume merctown can do repairs.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
ardashir wrote:On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't

Well MercTown did not exist when SB1 was originally written (and missed in the editing process for the revised). Nor would I take that list in SB1o/r as final since it seems to be region focused (Domain of Man in NA).


Yeah, a ton of new places have been created or expanded on since that list was published.
So it’s those KIND of places, but not that list exclusively.
I’d assume merctown can do repairs.

In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

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bkackl01 wrote:I was wondering what skills would be required to modify/customize/ create body armor from scratch? I m talking like dealing with mdc material that might have properties on it, or hooking up a HUD for the helmet, maybe some automated weapon attachments, etc. Or would i just have to use mechanical and electrical engineer? Robotic electronics? Any help to make a list would be nice, trying to see if i can get as much as possible on my cs as possible.


There are a few basic categories of skills that can come in handy for making body armor, but there are basically two avenues you can take with this.

If you want to make armor from M.D.C. metals, then the following skills could be handy:
Field Armorer (military) could help you roughly shape metals and salvaged M.D.C. materials into a crude armor. The result will likely have significant mobility penalties and quite possibly some penalties for combat actions. It would also likely have an armor rating due to gaps in coverage.
Jury-Rig could help improve this armor somewhat, maybe by putting together a rudimentary harness to lessen the penalties.
Scavenge and Recycle could help in finding and recovering components.
Mechanical Engineer would significantly improve the protection and function of the suit.
Robot Mechanics could allow you to improve the armor further and possibly add some exoskeleton capabilities.


If you want to make armor from supernatural/alien M.D.C. materials, then the following skills could be handy:
+Leather Working (technical) allows for creating S.D.C. leather armor, but it could plausibly be used by someone trying to make a very crude M.D.C. leather armor out of a supernatural creature's hide. This would
+Xenology could help identify suitable materials from alien creatures and their body parts.
+Lore: Demons & Monsters could help you identify demons and monsters and their body parts that might provide suitable hides.
+Lore: Fairies & Creatures of Magic could help you identify other magical creatures' body parts that might provide suitable armor materials.
+Skin/Prepare animals would help harvest hides and materials for the armor.
+Chemistry skills could help shape, harden, and toughen harvested hides.
+Sculpting/Whittling could help by incorporating M.D.C. bone, wood, and horn into a suit of armor.

Adding skills across these two categories could also be handy for making hybrid suits that use both organic and metal M.D.C. materials.

Skills that could be useful to either pathway:
+Tailoring (taking Sewing twice) would significantly help reduce, and in the case of suits with lighter, more flexible materials, outright eliminate penalties. It would also likely have an armor rating due to gaps in coverage.
+Field Armorer could be useful for mounting some basic melee weapons.
+Electronics would be useful for designing/incorporating electronic systems into a suit.
+Weapons Engineer would be useful for adding in mid-to-high-tech weapons.
+Optics would be useful for adding/calibrating optics and/or integrated targeting systems
+Sensory Equipment would be useful for adding other sensory equipment.

I've occasionally pondered making an O.C.C. that creates and fights with customized body armors.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Warshield73 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
ardashir wrote:On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't

Well MercTown did not exist when SB1 was originally written (and missed in the editing process for the revised). Nor would I take that list in SB1o/r as final since it seems to be region focused (Domain of Man in NA).


Yeah, a ton of new places have been created or expanded on since that list was published.
So it’s those KIND of places, but not that list exclusively.
I’d assume merctown can do repairs.

In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.


According to SB1, you needed a good sized city to get repairs.
Operators could probably do limited patchwork.

That might have changed over the years, but if so, I don’t remember where.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Shorty Lickens »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
ardashir wrote:On your list of locations for places that can repair or modify MDC armor, would you think that MercTown should also be on the list of cities that can do it? It would seem odd to me if they couldn't

Well MercTown did not exist when SB1 was originally written (and missed in the editing process for the revised). Nor would I take that list in SB1o/r as final since it seems to be region focused (Domain of Man in NA).


Yeah, a ton of new places have been created or expanded on since that list was published.
So it’s those KIND of places, but not that list exclusively.
I’d assume merctown can do repairs.

In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.


According to SB1, you needed a good sized city to get repairs.
Operators could probably do limited patchwork.

That might have changed over the years, but if so, I don’t remember where.

Maybe for a general guideline, but in my games I'd let the players come across a repair facility any time it was convenient. Of course, it would never be free.
But I realized a long time ago there would be a market on Rifts Earth for mobile repair facilities, something that could restore major armor on a large bot. The facility would need to be small and fast and have probably two Operators to keep the work as efficient as possible. There would be all kinds of setups, and all price ranges. They might even have an organized network. Who knows, I could have just stumbled on a new campaign idea.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Shorty Lickens wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.


According to SB1, you needed a good sized city to get repairs.
Operators could probably do limited patchwork.

That might have changed over the years, but if so, I don’t remember where.

Maybe for a general guideline, but in my games I'd let the players come across a repair facility any time it was convenient. Of course, it would never be free.
But I realized a long time ago there would be a market on Rifts Earth for mobile repair facilities, something that could restore major armor on a large bot. The facility would need to be small and fast and have probably two Operators to keep the work as efficient as possible. There would be all kinds of setups, and all price ranges. They might even have an organized network. Who knows, I could have just stumbled on a new campaign idea.

I am not sure what quote from SB1 you are talking about so I can't comment. The simple fact is that the Operator is described as being able to do these repairs and traveling Operators, as well as small town ones, are a thing.

Now it is going to be WAY more expensive, and limited by resources, but still possible otherwise there is no real purpose to an Operator.

Also when you look at descriptions of small towns in the various Rifts books many have a place to repair armor the point-based Rifts city builder has repair facilities that are rather cheap as far as points go.

In general, like anything else tech wise, it is going to be easier to purchase or repair armor in large cities, but you can still do it anywhere you find an operator, as far as I know. Like magic though GMs can really limit this for story purposes if they want.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Warshield73 wrote:
Shorty Lickens wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.


According to SB1, you needed a good sized city to get repairs.
Operators could probably do limited patchwork.

That might have changed over the years, but if so, I don’t remember where.

Maybe for a general guideline, but in my games I'd let the players come across a repair facility any time it was convenient. Of course, it would never be free.
But I realized a long time ago there would be a market on Rifts Earth for mobile repair facilities, something that could restore major armor on a large bot. The facility would need to be small and fast and have probably two Operators to keep the work as efficient as possible. There would be all kinds of setups, and all price ranges. They might even have an organized network. Who knows, I could have just stumbled on a new campaign idea.

I am not sure what quote from SB1 you are talking about so I can't comment.


Perhaps read my post from earlier in the conversation.
viewtopic.php?p=3119948#p3119948

The simple fact is that the Operator is described as being able to do these repairs and traveling Operators, as well as small town ones, are a thing.


Operators exist, yes.
Operators can perform repairs to mechanical devices, yes.
Operators travel, yes.
Do you know of any specific passages which specifically state that Operators can repair MDC on body armor without advanced facilities?
If so, don't hold back. Give the quotes, books, and page numbers that contradict the SB1 information, or explain the apparent discrepancy between SB1's "Only the most industrialized places [have the facilities to repair body armor]" and the idea that Operators without using such high tech facilities can repair EBA.

Palladium is inconsistent, and Palladium changes things over time.
I'm quoting a VERY old piece of text, and it's likely that Palladium has weakened or changed things.
But if so, I'd need to see a specific citation of when and where before I throw out a clearly stated piece of official world description.

Also when you look at descriptions of small towns in the various Rifts books many have a place to repair armor the point-based Rifts city builder has repair facilities that are rather cheap as far as points go.


One of the reasons why I prefer to provide clear citations for my claims is to facilitate clear and accurate communication.
As phrased, I'm left making far too many guesses what exactly you're talking about there.

Are you talking about pages 113-114 of the Rifts Adventure Guide, which states "weapon construction, repair, and modification are also usually available in such towns" under Level 6 (the highest possible level available) "Superior"...?
Or are you talking about something else?
Please provide better citation for your claims, to avoid leaving people guessing which books and passages you're referring to.
:)
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Shorty Lickens wrote:Maybe for a general guideline, but in my games I'd let the players come across a repair facility any time it was convenient.


This is, of course, how many people play Rifts.
This is not necessarily the same as what the rules of Rifts describe, though.

Most people want to play Rifts like the vast majority of RPGs and video games, where you get into combat, get torn up and spend a bunch of ammo, and basically shake it off by the next day.
But I personally find a lot of value in playing the setting as originally written, where armor repair and high tech ammo like e-clip replacement are HARD to come by, where losing 5 MDC off your armor is a big enough deal that you're heavily invested in (as the experience tables say) "avoiding unnecessary violence" and such.
It's a much more difficult game if you have to plan out your resources and conflicts in much, as the stakes are a LOT higher when the only way to recharge your weapon and repair your armor happens to be a hundred miles away, rather than a traveling mechanic in your own camp, but that's what the rules originally described and I learned to love that level of play.

But I realized a long time ago there would be a market on Rifts Earth for mobile repair facilities, something that could restore major armor on a large bot. The facility would need to be small and fast and have probably two Operators to keep the work as efficient as possible. There would be all kinds of setups, and all price ranges. They might even have an organized network. Who knows, I could have just stumbled on a new campaign idea.


There's a real-world market for easy cures to cancer and covid.
But technology doesn't allow it to actually happen.
Markets don't determine what is possibly, only what is popular, and SB1's rather limited list of which cities have the facilities to repair body armor indicates to me that body armor and robot repair isn't easily possible.

MDC tech body armor is made of high-tech non-ferrous metals, ceramics, and plastics, as well as. We don't know what goes into making them, but it doesn't seem to be something that would be easy to weld or otherwise generally repair back up to fresh-from-the-factory standard.
Same deal with robot armor.

Given the description in SB1, I'd suspect the easiest way to repair armor would to simply replace damaged components the same way we do with panels on cars:
You wouldn't FIX the chest plate for Bushman armor away from the big cities; you buy a new chest plate, give the old one to the repair shop (built into the price already), who sends them off to a repair facility to have them actually fixed.
Robots would likely work the same way, essentially.
Some kind of mobile repair station would work, but would need to have a lot of different armor panels for a lot of different makes and models of things.

OR MDC material patch plates that could be stuck over holes using adhesive or something. Or some kind of MDC bondo filler, but if that was possible it seems like repairs would be cheaper.

That's how I'd do it, anyway, based on my understanding of the rules.
That's the thing about Rifts; we're all looking at different ends of the proverbial elephant.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by guardiandashi »

i'm not sure how accurate it is in universe, but what Killer Cyborg is describing IE the patch repairs is exactly what I see the field armorer skill allowing

some form of putty/resin and "patch" pieces to "repair" damaged pieces, or swap our compromised pieces IF you have access to replacements.

I see characters with higher level skills, Armorer, mechanical engineer (in some cases robot mechanics) doing full repairs or scrap and remanufacture said pieces.

for the patch gel/resin I see it (depending on the specific materials involved) as:
plasticman armor some form of plastic/epoxy patch possibly with nano bots, that bonds and fills the damage
Bushman (plate) which seems to be ceramic, would ideally have a ceramic equivalent of bondo/epoxy possibly jb wield or quick
metal armor would involve jb wield equivalent and or wielding (equivalent)

attaching replacement materials to cover (hide) the compromised sections would prevent people from aiming (focusing) on the damaged spots
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Hotrod »

On the topic of body armor repair, in practice most GM's seem to hand-wave it between adventures; outside of adventures in which people keep careful track of finite resources (a la Oregon Trail), it's not generally much of a thing. This also seems to be the case among NPCs presented in the book; it's rare to have an NPC whose armor and weapons aren't effectively in factory-fresh condition, even for NPCs described as seeing regular action and who don't have significant repair facilities handy.

The canon costs of armor repair and ammunition resupply are so high that getting into almost any kind of fight, even one you're certain to win, seems like a losing prospect unless the rewards are insanely high, and such rewards seem rare in canon. This is doubly problematic when fighting the supernatural who heal M.D.C. for free and often have unlimited ammunition. The logistics required to sustain/repair/resupply tech-based armies in Rifts is kind of nuts, and it makes me wonder how any tech-based independent folks could eek out any kind of living.

For this reason, my general preference is to make armor difficult/expensive to acquire, but relatively cheap/easy to fix. This was true in Duty's Edge and in the Glitter Boy articles I wrote.
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Warshield73 »

KC please go back and edit your post. You are attributing quotes to me that I did not say and it is almost impossible to respond to something that is that messed up.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Shorty Lickens wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:In general I assume an Operator, with the proper tools and materials, can do repairs out of her/his truck. Major modifications probably require some kind of moderately well equipped workshop while actually creating a custom set of armor would require some manufacturing facilities.


According to SB1, you needed a good sized city to get repairs.
Operators could probably do limited patchwork.

That might have changed over the years, but if so, I don’t remember where.

Maybe for a general guideline, but in my games I'd let the players come across a repair facility any time it was convenient. Of course, it would never be free.
But I realized a long time ago there would be a market on Rifts Earth for mobile repair facilities, something that could restore major armor on a large bot. The facility would need to be small and fast and have probably two Operators to keep the work as efficient as possible. There would be all kinds of setups, and all price ranges. They might even have an organized network. Who knows, I could have just stumbled on a new campaign idea.

I am not sure what quote from SB1 you are talking about so I can't comment.

Perhaps read my post from earlier in the conversation.
viewtopic.php?p=3119948#p3119948

The simple fact is that the Operator is described as being able to do these repairs and traveling Operators, as well as small town ones, are a thing.


Operators exist, yes.
Operators can perform repairs to mechanical devices, yes.
Operators travel, yes.
Do you know of any specific passages which specifically state that Operators can repair MDC on body armor without advanced facilities?
If so, don't hold back. Give the quotes, books, and page numbers that contradict the SB1 information, or explain the apparent discrepancy between SB1's "Only the most industrialized places [have the facilities to repair body armor]" and the idea that Operators without using such high tech facilities can repair EBA.

Palladium is inconsistent, and Palladium changes things over time.
I'm quoting a VERY old piece of text, and it's likely that Palladium has weakened or changed things.
But if so, I'd need to see a specific citation of when and where before I throw out a clearly stated piece of official world description.

Also when you look at descriptions of small towns in the various Rifts books many have a place to repair armor the point-based Rifts city builder has repair facilities that are rather cheap as far as points go.


One of the reasons why I prefer to provide clear citations for my claims is to facilitate clear and accurate communication.
As phrased, I'm left making far too many guesses what exactly you're talking about there.

Are you talking about pages 113-114 of the Rifts Adventure Guide, which states "weapon construction, repair, and modification are also usually available in such towns" under Level 6 (the highest possible level available) "Superior"...?
Or are you talking about something else?
Please provide better citation for your claims, to avoid leaving people guessing which books and passages you're referring to.
:)
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Re: Body Armor creation and customization

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Warshield73 wrote:KC please go back and edit your post.


Absolutely!
Sorry about that.

Edit:
I think it's fixed now, but please let me know if I still have things misattributed or otherwise messed up.
:oops:
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