Gods MDC on Rifts earth

[linhvo]

I was rereading Dragons and gods and Pantheons of the Megaverse. I noticed that all of the gods have a reduced MDC on rifts earth including Thoth who isn't really even a god. I was trying to find the passage that says why this is. Would someone please direct me to the book and page number where I can find the explanation for this? Thanks.

[AzathothXy]

I believe they are only at full power in dimensions they control. And they can only be killed in those dimensions. Killing them elsewhere is temporary.

[linhvo]

Thank you for your response. I am aware of the argument. Where do I find it in the text?
Thanks again.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Pantheons of the Megaverse Page 7.

Also Thoth has an exception, he explictly has full MDC on Rifts Earth because he is not a god, he does not know this and thinks he has a lower total than he does. The amount he thinks he has is listed because in theory if a Fight were to go against him he'd be motivated to withdraw much before he'd actually be in danger because he'd think he's weaker than he is.

[linhvo]

Nekira, Thank you. i just have to remember that D &G and Pantheons talk about critical mass. so many dieties have that, Isis, Set, the Aztec dieties as well as the one in South america. there are others as well.

[Axelmania]

I believe they are only at full power in dimensions they control.

This part is a basic rule, "If they lack any of this they are only visitors to the world and their powers are much diminished"

OV (only visitors) god-deities are distinguished from TRAAG (truly recognized as a god) ones, requirement for latter being that you have a group (a religious one, dedicated to spreading your ideas) and at least "several thousand" followers.

"M.D.C. totals, for instance" are given as an example of how their "powers are much diminished" although in a lot of cases that seems like the ONLY example/instance... I struggle to find any other reduction in capacity whatsoever expressed. I think the South America books had a couple (different rates of healing for example in a holy city?) but can't remember seeing other reductions in Pantheons itself.

Viewing MDC as a "power" is kind of weird and it's tricky since we're never given [i]transition mechanics[/i like if you retain % in either direction, if going high>low just means losing excess, if going low>high means gaining max but no boost to current, etc.

We're also given a "GM can decide" instruction regarding these two MDC amounts: "The GM can decide that the god doesn't need worshippers and that either of the M.D.C. values presented in the descriptions is suitable"

And they can only be killed in those dimensions.
Killing them elsewhere is temporary.

You're referring to the sum effect of putting two optional rules (from pg 7 as Nekira mentioned) into play.

The actual basic A policy without the "may rule" or "may also decree" options is simply "Gods can die from violence or accidents, but this is easier said than done" which probably just refers to their high MDC and bio-regeneration.

The B policy is by enacting the first option "a god who has been destroyed/slain has only been dispelled from the particular plane of existence where he was defeated, but still lives in another dimension." By itself this makes gods completely unkillable since they can't die ANYWHERE.

The C policy is by introducing a 2nd option which modifies the 1st: "the only way to destroy these types of gods is to destroy him in his native plane"

We're then reminded at the end "All of this is up to the GM, depending on how tough he wants the gods to be."

Option A is minimal toughness, option B is maximal toughness, C is a middle ground.

D+G seems to take the "A" approach (no auto-resurrection regardless of where you die) per pg 85, except for three: Juggernaut (instant? no delay mentioned) and Bennu (2d4 days) and Apepi (2 days) who have special auto-res powers, which in all 3 cases they respawn in their deific planes. If ALL gods operated with the "B" option from Pantheons there wouldn't exactly be much point to those powers: why do you need to resurrect if you can't even die?

We do get some semblance of that "kill to dispell, might come back later" effect from applying D+G's new options though...
1) pg 90's notes on bringing back Annihilated gods. For some reason "spends all" is "committing suicide" even though reaching 0 HP (or 0 MDC?) usually just means "coma, can survive up to PE below 0". Maybe "all" includes also losing the "survivable negative MDC" too? These guidelines might apply to ANY death (not just "Annihilated" occasions) if you have at least four people to help, since "priests" and "followers" are both plural. Or just TWO if it's gods. Here we find there's a fixed 200 year survival period where non-resurrected gods remain resurrectable this way.

It's not really clear what capacity newly respawned gods are at prior to the 2D4 days... and also if you come back to 100% that fast it actually sounds like you could recover faster from Annihilated than from other Body Investment depletions... those are capped to a max of 40 HP / 60 SDC per day, meaning if 2 gods bring you back in 6 days and you're up to full power 8 after that, over 14 days the most a "Consumed" guy could've gotten back was 560 HP and 840 SDC...

2) pg 95's Resurrection: Deific has no stated 200 year time limit, so you could resort to that if you're past the expiration date (or if you need it instantaneosly, not after days of work) but a mage-god is going to hate you for resorting to this and making them permanently lose 10% of their max PPE. Gods will probably use invocation/warlock options first where available where it doesn't cause permanent damage, but they have more limited parameters.

3) assume gods encountered outside home dimension are using Manifestation because it's much safer/pragmatic to send those out to do business than to risk your main form. Since that's 50% and not 20%, you could allow "Manifestation of a Manifestation" to operate at 25%, similar to the legal "Doppleganger of a Doppleganger" spell approach (which could also overlap, for mage-gods who know that spell) Heck in most cases even a manifestation is too dangerous to put at risk (a Token Body investment is a big deal to waste) and you'll just send worshippers and utilize their eyes to attack w/ deific abilities.

As to why you'd use Manifestation at all when Doppleganger (Superior) is generally easier (spend an extra 500 PPE you'll get back in an hour at a ley line instead of hundreds of HP/SDC that will take days to get back) I think the main reason is that you get sensory input from a Manifestation (they're like a worshipper: loyal to you) whereas a Doppleganger doesn't give sensory input. You can program them to be loyal, but they can be axed by Negate Magic (which is easier to access than Dispel Deific Power). If a doppleganger gets kidnapped you've forever lost the ability to make a new one until they're gone (just one at a time) which there's less risk of with Manifestations since you have their sensory input to help track them down if misplaced.

4) "Priest/Healing Powers" is an interesting one worth dwelling on. Ippotomi for example (pg 179) has "Resurrection 82%" so it leads me to wonder when she'd use that and when she'd use Resurrection: Deific.

D+G (unlike 1st ed PRPG) doesn't AFAIK explain how Priest/Healing Powers work for deities. I think 1st ed said it works just like priests, which seems like a reasonable enough guideline... this is the 4th ability for either the Rifts Priest (CB2) or the Priest of Light (PF2)

Pantheons 13 has a "must have all of its parts; small body parts like fingers and toes may be missing" caveat which makes priestly resurrection unsuitable for stuff like Annihilated (there's no body left to target) and explains why Isis can't just casually use her own power to bring back Osiris.

If Isis refuses to use Resurrection: Deific solo to bring back Osiris because she doesn't want him to lose 10% of his PPE (kind of hard to swallow) we still need to know why she doesn't just team up with some other god of light (she only needs ONE helper) to bring him back. This makes me wonder if the "2 gods, 1d6 days" option ONLY exists for those who voluntarily suicide via "Annihilated" (or "Consumed" at <10% HP) but not for other deaths like "my brother stabbed me"

Or perhaps you could normally do the 1d6 day thing for such a death, but something with how Osiris' body parts got turned into magical items is preventing the 1d6 day option from working on him? It does say Set "enchanted them". They're all "indestructible" (god bodies usually aren't) which perhaps could be key to why standard "god respawn" options can't work?

Maybe why "2 gods 1-6 days" would only work on Annihilated is because when you're completely discorporated you can reform (like how a vampire's severed body parts become mist and rejoin with them, if buried separately) but if your parts are still intact you can't?

This would then make me ask: why would Isis try to collect body parts (guarding them and risking losing them) instead of just vaporizing them (nothing to guard!) as she encounters them?

Perhaps she is hedging her bets that it will be easier to reunite the body parts and spam her free resurrection ability (which she can use solo) rather than vaporizing them and risking she might not find another god to cooperate with her to bring him back?

Or: as above, maybe she just CAN'T destroy them, meaning the "2 gods 6 days" option just isn't allowed, since it required discorporation and complete rebuilding to work.

She can't even do standard options for destroying indestructible stuff (Scathach Cauldron, Odin's spear) because the body parts aren't rune weapons. They're like Cosmo-Knight or Cyber-Knight weapons: NOTHING can break'em! Still doesn't really explain why she does all the pyramid shrines though: is it that dangerous to just carry them around on your person?

Priestly resurrection (no matter how high your initial %) drops to at most 5% when you're dead for over a year (Osiris certainly is) but you're probably going to succeed if you try it 20 times...

There is a "one attempt per character per priest" cap which may apply to gods too... in which case if Isis fails that 5% chance she might need to find someone else to attempt it.

This probably isn't that big a deal if she can use her own priests: it only takes 5th level to get it, I'm sure she could have (in her prime, at least) scrounged together twenty 5th level priest.

This could be trickier if it's the LESSER of 5% or "base minus 3 per month beyond one" though. 11 months dead is for example 10 months beyond (-3% x 10 = -30%) and even a 15th level priest (+3% x 10 levels beyond 5 is a 30% bonus to the base 10%, giving a 40% base chance) and 40-30=10%. 10% at 11 months would drop to 7% at 12 months, but then what happens on the 13th?

7% minus 3% is 4%... is the 5% meant to prevent a 15th level Rifts Priest from dropping to 4% at 13, 1% at 14mo and 0% at 15+ mo?

Or perhaps... since a 16th level Priest (GM permitting) would have a base of 43% and be at 10% at 12 months, 7% at 13 months, it's merely meant to force that 7% down to 5%?

IE is the 5% meant to be a minimum chance of success (if so: always, or just for people gone >1 year?) or a maximum (beyond 1 year) or BOTH?

Whatever interpretation, we also need to know how "Great Miracle" (CB2p14 affects it ("1-8, at double the duration, and/or double the power/strength" aka "Great Miracle of Increased Power" on PF2p65). Do you double the base (so 5% is still the final) or do you double the final (in which case 10%?)

It seems like gods don't even pay a cost for their priests' use of OCC powers like healing/resurrection (nor their own) or even to grant miracles to them, though in the latter case the intent in CB2 is that the priest is paying PPE for the benefit. 100 PPE is a paltry amount to double chances of resurrection though...

"Unlike other powers, this ability requires the use of P.P.E. points" from CB2 seems to have been abandoned in PF2 though...

Like special prayers of intervention, miracles do not require the priest to expend P.P.E. points.
If the energy is not available the god himself will provide it.

This disclaimer accompanies stripping of MOST of them of PPE costs (Great Miracles cost 100/160/250/500 respectively) from CB2, except for the first two non-Great ones (Luck and Strength) where 40/60 is still listed. Maybe it's more common for 40/60 to be paid since that amount IS commonly available.

Thoth has an exception,
he explictly has full MDC on Rifts Earth because he is not a god,
he does not know this and thinks he has a lower total than he does.

Thoth's two MDC amounts on Africa 53 don't have anything to do with Pantheon's 20% pattern: he just believes he has 36.175% of the MDC he actually has.

We're not told his MDC goes down on Earth (or up on a home plane) but we're not told that about his partners either...

Unlike Pantheons, WB4 only gave single MDC amounts for its gods. Singular MDC amounts (on Rifts Earth) are also all I can find in the "Dragons and Gods" stats too. We might assume they get 5x the MDC on a home plane (perhaps assume that for all D+G deities) but I don't know that there's actual text supporting that.

If the others did and Thoth didn't, (which admittedly seems standard for AIs) it would be pretty strange, since a lot of the other gods have more than 1/5 of 40,000 (8k) meaning they'd end up more durable than Thoth on their home planes. If Thoth got 5x as well that'd bring him up to 200,000 MDC on his home plane, which seems like a reasonable amount for an AI to have.

If 200k seems low for a GOO, I figure since he lost 90% memory, you could estimate that as the % of MDC he lost, meaning the original could've been 2 million. That's merely 1/10 a Cormal avatar (20mil) and 1/50 of Cormal (100mil) but we're never given the impression Xy was a planet-sized AI and I always figured his power wasn't focused on "can take the most damage" so it's fine with me if Xy's easier to put in a coma than Cormal or his avatars.

Thoth's "thinks" note is actually weird if you think about it: is it common for gods to know EXACTLY how much their maximum MDC is? Like "I can take X many max-setting 1 MD shots from a Wilks Laser Wand before falling into a coma" ?

Rather than "or so he believes" I think "or so he feels" could be a little easier to accept. Like when Thoth suffers 7235 MD (depleting what he thinks is half of his MDC) it "feels" like he's half-dead, rather than "I have 7235 MDC left" as if to imply other gods (or beings in general) have such an exact level of knowledge of their damage capacity. Something tells me humans don't exactly know that they have 40 SDC v 41 SDC, for example...

I guess in theory by measuring harm via fixed-damage attacks you could technically get that number (by how much it takes to knock you into a coma) but then if that's how you come to that awareness, does that mean suffering 14,470 puts Thoth into a "psychological coma" (automatically surviving, no % roll?) even though physically has hasn't suffered enough to have a biological reason to do so?

Pg 143 of D+G gives an interesting take on this: it implies Thoth knows exactly how much SDC he has, it's just his HP which he's unclear on. The math seems kind of off here... 8470+6200 sums to the 16740 MDC he thinks he has on Rifts, but "has 40,000" is listed for HP, only replacing that, meaning the real sum is 46,200