more PPE per intersecting ley lines from nexus?

[Axelmania]

I vaguely remembering seeing something like you can draw extra PPE from a nexus based on how many ley lines compose it but I can't remember where or if it was even in Rifts, does this ring a bell for anyone?

[Mouser13]

Not that I know of under the old rules was within so x feet so in theory you where at nexus you could be x feet of each line. Seems to me they also increase the size of leylines. Only rule I think for extra ppe I know of is super nexus get double but I can't seem to remember where that was said. At least that what I remember.

[Curbludgeon]

RMB pg 163 describes super nexii having twice the available PPE/round, but RUE doesn't include that text.

[Axelmania]

I slept on it and realized I'd seen it in PF sourcebook "Heart of Magic", pg 23:

each additional ley line beyond two adds another 10 points of P.P.E. available per each melee round and a bonus of
+ 1 to save vs Horror Factor and possession for Men of Magic, as well as increases the range, duration, and damage of spells,
circles, and wards another 10% per each line.

Now picturing those Nazca using 'Create Ley Line' very liberally to make some kind of 100-line nexus to get 1000% increase.

[Curbludgeon]

That's a nice find, Axelmania.

I like looking at the Line Maker's generally lower PPE level as not so much a result of being a RMB-era book but a natural consequence of a magical culture that more routinely involves expending permanent PPE, with subsequent pre-Columbian civilizations' traditions of blood sacrifice being a crude approximation of largely forgotten technologies.

I began trying to figure out the PPE cost of making a temple similar in size to Norte Chico complexes like Caral entirely out of permanent Pattern Walls, and applying a multiplier like this as a result of creating a super nexus makes it far more viable. Perhaps before the fall of Atlantis those Nazca children that weren't going to enter a magical OCC burned off some of their higher-than-adult PPE, where helping fuel a public work and/or personal dwelling was part of a coming-of-age ritual. Maybe those children selected to become Rune Warriors (usually orphans, according to SA2), when exposed to magical energy in their sequestered camps were subjected to one of these tiny created nexii, with their increase in personal PPE being used to fund the PPE burn required in applying their permanent line drawing patterns. The Rifter article on Nexus Born in Wyoming seems pertinent to this, as well.

I'm curious as to how created ley lines and pattern wall temples could interact with Stone Magic. If an initial stone pyramid is built in order to control a naturally found nexus I'd say it would be easier to create ley lines within or around it to facilitate other construction. With a nexus with enough intersections any subsequently created Pattern Walls wouldn't even need to be made permanent, but could just be re-energized.

An idea I just had that's unrelated to the Nazca and ley lines but involves PPE sacrifice is the idea of contibuting PPE to an Astral Domain as a life insurance/retirement policy. A youth that's grown up in a magical society that can use TW items might be encouraged to take part in a ritual led by a local Astral Lord/Mage and pony up a point or two. A custom spell to allow those with no magical or psychic leanings to do so could be, for example, a great way to entice borgs to work for Lazlo.

[Axelmania]

An idea I just had that's unrelated to the Nazca and ley lines but involves PPE sacrifice is the idea of contibuting PPE to an Astral Domain as a life insurance/retirement policy. A youth that's grown up in a magical society that can use TW items might be encouraged to take part in a ritual led by a local Astral Lord/Mage and pony up a point or two. A custom spell to allow those with no magical or psychic leanings to do so could be, for example, a great way to entice borgs to work for Lazlo.

Getting linked to an outer domain is great because if it doesn't follow real-world physics then you stay in an astral form meaning you don't get old, don't need to eat or drink, can float around, etc.

Drawbacks of course might mean an inability to do stuff like have children or enjoy certain kinds of intimate acts. I'm not 100% clear on what "Astral Bodies" can do, tbh

There's symbiotes (talo mind worms) which can give psi to anyone, I don't see why a borg couldn't use that, don't they still have a brain?

[Curbludgeon]

Talo Mind Worms, noice again.

Huh, I didn't realize that the Astral Realm creation rules in Between the Shadows are pretty much lifted straight from the Spatial Mage in Rifter 3 without attribution before adding a couple extra categories. The costs for altering physical laws within a domain are left open-ended, but banning things seems to be generally be more expensive than allowing them. I'd say, for example, that with "Same as the Astral Plane" costing 0 creation points, and "Same as Earth" costing 20, that "Each individual can interact with the domain as if it were either the Astral Plane or Earth as they choose, with a ~1 minute transition between states" would be reasonable at 40-50.

The ability to grant all contributors use of particular spells or psionics for 5 times the PPE/ISP cost in creation points has a couple of fun options at the high end, once one is dealing with a Realm with a few hundred people involved. Metamorphosis:Superior and Multiple Illusions with All Five Elements from Palladium Fantasy's Illusionist come to mind.

Since I see communities with a large Astral presence like Psyscape or Lazlo as encouraging experimental modes of living, maybe domain recruiters would try to get citizens to donate to the development of multiple realms. There could be a Central Receiving Realm, itself featureless with low accessibility and heavy defenses, but where contributors can teleport into it with no PPE cost before travelling to adjoining realms as either visitors or members. Maybe one realm grants usage of Group Trance and Fourth Dimension Transformation in attempts to harness an ISP-generating engine unstuck from time in creating another Psynex Entity. Another realm could be a greenhouse with extreme time dilation tended by telekinetic Astral gardeners growing the food of the far future today. A third could be where captured CS soldiers are re-educated, for whatever value of that proves most interesting.

[Mouser13]

I slept on it and realized I'd seen it in PF sourcebook "Heart of Magic", pg 23:

each additional ley line beyond two adds another 10 points of P.P.E. available per each melee round and a bonus of
+ 1 to save vs Horror Factor and possession for Men of Magic, as well as increases the range, duration, and damage of spells,
circles, and wards another 10% per each line.

Now picturing those Nazca using 'Create Ley Line' very liberally to make some kind of 100-line nexus to get 1000% increase.

I did something similar to make grid of intersecting leylines in a hidden mage city in the Rockies mt. Moved a mountain using earth elements and attempted to form society.

[Mouser13]

That's a nice find, Axelmania.

An idea I just had that's unrelated to the Nazca and ley lines but involves PPE sacrifice is the idea of contibuting PPE to an Astral Domain as a life insurance/retirement policy. A youth that's grown up in a magical society that can use TW items might be encouraged to take part in a ritual led by a local Astral Lord/Mage and pony up a point or two. A custom spell to allow those with no magical or psychic leanings to do so could be, for example, a great way to entice borgs to work for Lazlo.

I know alot people don't like the old F.A.Q. If used talismans to do this sense old F.A.Q. allow them to be used.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I know a lot people don't like the old F.A.Q. If used talismans to do this sense old F.A.Q. allow them to be used.

That is because the FAQ answers are very often contradictory with each other and the published rules.

And what are you saying that talisman are allowed to do what? You are not speaking is specifics. Please clarify. And if you can post (copy-paist) the supporting text (question and answer) you are referencing.

[Mouser13]

I know a lot people don't like the old F.A.Q. If used talismans to do this sense old F.A.Q. allow them to be used.

That is because the FAQ answers are very often contradictory with each other and the published rules.

And what are you saying that talisman are allowed to do what? You are not speaking is specifics. Please clarify. And if you can post (copy-paist) the supporting text (question and answer) you are referencing.

Under magic section number 14. Can P.P.E. absorbed from talismans, blood sacrifice, etc. be used in the creation of a Dimensional Realm? Yes

[drewkitty ~..~]

Under magic section number 14. Can P.P.E. absorbed from talismans, blood sacrifice, etc. be used in the creation of a Dimensional Realm? Yes

I do believe that the Text says that it takes the Permanent Sacrifice of PPE to make a D-realm. Just like when an astral realm is made from sacrificing Perm PPE.

Sacrificing Perm PPE shrinks the being permanent PPE Pool. And this PPE is permanently lost, even if the item is destroyed.

Yes, people can help by sacrificing their Perm PPE, but then they will be co-creators of the realm.

[Orin J.]

-people can help by sacrificing their Perm PPE, but then they will be co-creators of the realm.

sounds like a problem for my old friend mr. stabby.

[Axelmania]

I didn't realize that the Astral Realm creation rules in Between the Shadows are pretty much lifted straight from the Spatial Mage in Rifter 3 without attribution before adding a couple extra categories.

I think vice versa, Nightbane WB1 came out in 1996, 1st issue of Rifter came out in 1998.

Maybe one realm grants usage of Group Trance and Fourth Dimension Transformation in attempts to harness an ISP-generating engine unstuck from time in creating another Psynex Entity.

Just so long as we explore the likelihood of co-creators being tempted to murder each other to gain a monopoly over the abilities the realm bestows.

[Curbludgeon]

You know, I totally did switch those two. Whoops! That makes the additional features available to Spatial Realms make a little more sense. As for fellow members of Astral Realms betraying each other, while there are purchaseable options to curtail that it might be fun to think of ways for the culture within those domains to exert social pressure, or use non-Astral abilities to promote a code of conduct.

One thing I've been considering is the usage of Psymbiotes. As a species they tend to live longer than most potential hosts, so it seems likely they can detach themselves. If that can be done without harming the host and if, when conjoined, the host being able to make use of the Psymbiotes I.S.P./P.P.E counts as a sacrifice made on the host's part (perhaps via a custom aura entanglement spell), then I could totally see Psymbiotes burning a few points on incentivizing non-psychic/magic characters to assist with their SLF cause. Considering how many psymbiotes live in the bodies of water near Lazlo I could see a lot of disillusioned participants in the Tolkeen/CS War getting ideologically swept up into joining orders such as the Liberator Psyborgs of the Aquastral Consensus when it means your down time gets spent in an Astral Heaven.

[Axelmania]

if, when conjoined, the host being able to make use of the Psymbiotes I.S.P./P.P.E counts as a sacrifice made on the host's part (perhaps via a custom aura entanglement spell), then I could totally see Psymbiotes burning a few points on incentivizing non-psychic/magic characters to assist with their SLF cause

I don't think you can sacrifice ISP to build realms, but WB12p107 does say PPE is pooled too...

I would say who the PPE comes from depends on who makes the choice to donate to the realm? Being able to permanently sacrifice another's PPE seems imbalanced in either direction.

I can't seem to find anything about the host using the creature's psi abilities though, only having access to their ISP. Closest seems to be the "these powers can only be used through the Psymbiote' s host/partner" notes for sword/dianose/surgery, which I figure means the Psymviote possesses them first and then uses it.

*if a Psymbiote is using it's "Control Host" power though, I WOULD allow it to force the host to permanently sacrifice PPE, or SDC for golems, or similar.

I guess the question here is whether or not having ISP necessarily makes you qualify as a psychic.

Like, for example, Psymbiotes being master psi save at 10 or higher. Would a non-psi save at 15 or higher still? If it became less then I'd think they'd note it.

Considering how many psymbiotes live in the bodies of water near Lazlo I could see a lot of disillusioned participants in the Tolkeen/CS War getting ideologically swept up into joining orders such as the Liberator Psyborgs of the Aquastral Consensus when it means your down time gets spent in an Astral Heaven.

I'm still skeptical it would work, however Psymbiotes would be useful in liberating Talo Mind Worms which DO seem to impart psi to the host.

Pg 153 has psi-implants (since you brought up CS) that could be useful here too. Creates psis from non-psis.

Even from the main book, the Crazy OCC also can do that. Cyberknights also apparently can teach non-psis how to psi since SOT4, so Coake is the path to immortality in astral plane.

[Curbludgeon]

Under magic section number 14. Can P.P.E. absorbed from talismans, blood sacrifice, etc. be used in the creation of a Dimensional Realm? Yes

Note: The P.P.E. released from a blood sacrifice cannot be used to create or add to a domain. The P.P.E. must be given up willingly from a living being.

I'm inclined to say that a Psymbiote can use psionics through their host without requiring taking control of their host, but I could go either way. It's sort of irrelevant; I don't know of any penalty from a borg permanently sacrificing their last P.P.E., and the setup would work better if done before full conversion anyway. I just kinda like the idea of an increasingly militarized species ideologically butting against a transdimensional utopianism not dissimilar to their natural state before their genocide began, as they co-opt semi-religious principles to obtain aid from astrally marginalized people they're always tempted to instead coerce. For the people that want a Lazlo book to have some gritty elements behind a shiny exterior that's a situation one can sink their teeth into.

There are some other Bio-Wizard parasites and symbionts that would work in addition to Talo Mind Worms, with the main advantage in their use being that they're often cheaper. The Lobee Optos "bestows" powers where the Talo "imparts" them, and can be convinced to detach instead of requiring surgery. The Line Feeder "provides" a psionic ability which arguably qualifies while being both the cheapest and easiest symbiote to remove. While Zembakh Appendages would offend the Psymbiotes and most goody two-shoes, I could see an argument for quickly making positive use of one when removed from Splugorth forces to be seen as a noble act. (edit:typo)

[Axelmania]

Bludgeon's idea of using cheap parasites instead of expensive symbiotes is a good one. If someone's on death's door seeking immortality in the astral, side effects would matter less