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Unread postPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:21 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
I like Mutants in Orbit. I don't think it should be scrapped. I do think it can be updated. Maybe even split so that the After the Bomb parts are placed into a new Space book that incorporates elements from the TMNT books. The Rifts part would be expanded and updated to being everything up to date and include the Archons on Mars. I know I shouldn't hold my breath but I can hope for it.

As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


Rifts orbit could use an update, and that setting is VERY under used. I'd love to see a new source book updating it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:57 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
<snip> (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...) <snip>,


Um, not really. The radiators on your EBA are intended for use in an atmosphere. They disperse heat via convective transfer. Drop someone in terrestrial EBA into a "safe" orbit, and you'll overheat fairly rapidly, even with the "ambient" temperature about 10 deg C.
Remember, the fact that when you are exposed to direct sunlight in orbit, the surface facing the sun quickly heats to well over the boiling point of water (over 120 deg C). Your EBA is designed to operate in heat up to 50-60 dg C.

Also keep in mind that the environmental seals are intended to keep pressure OUT, not in. (Think about the Prometheus and Daedalus in Robotech - their entire crews died when they were folded out to Pluto, despite being in environmentally sealed ships.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:00 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
I get the sense that you and I fundamentally agree that the setting as described is unworkable. You seem to prefer changing the numbers, stats, and technical content to better fit the description. I prefer changing the description. I can respect either approach.


I agree the setting has issues, the question really comes down to how a GM wants to address those issues short of hypothetical like a "Revised/Expanded" Edition or a MiO#2.

If the Orbitals where not self-sufficient or had access to resources, they would have all long ago died off or moved down to Earth. That they did not means they really do not need Earth per say. Earth might be physically closer, but it with a bit of patience it is more economical for them to not go to the surface.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:45 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
<snip> (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...) <snip>,


Um, not really. The radiators on your EBA are intended for use in an atmosphere. They disperse heat via convective transfer. Drop someone in terrestrial EBA into a "safe" orbit, and you'll overheat fairly rapidly, even with the "ambient" temperature about 10 deg C.
Remember, the fact that when you are exposed to direct sunlight in orbit, the surface facing the sun quickly heats to well over the boiling point of water (over 120 deg C). Your EBA is designed to operate in heat up to 50-60 dg C.

Also keep in mind that the environmental seals are intended to keep pressure OUT, not in. (Think about the Prometheus and Daedalus in Robotech - their entire crews died when they were folded out to Pluto, despite being in environmentally sealed ships.)


So here's where there's a slight distinction in RUE.

RUE p261 states that all Dead Boy armor are suitable for space.
However, common body armors (RUE p267) do not include space.

So you've got to bring the right suit of armor.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:05 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
I like Mutants in Orbit. I don't think it should be scrapped. I do think it can be updated. Maybe even split so that the After the Bomb parts are placed into a new Space book that incorporates elements from the TMNT books. The Rifts part would be expanded and updated to being everything up to date and include the Archons on Mars. I know I shouldn't hold my breath but I can hope for it.

Hey, if it works for you, enjoy it.

Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

The separation itself makes no sense to me absent something that actively cuts off communications and visually distorts light both ways. We know that isn't a thing, since ARCHIE 3 controls and communicates with a satellite.

Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.

Sambot wrote:
Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters.

They'd also be able to see human communities from space.

Sambot wrote:
Who would they communicate with?

Literally anyone with a radio. This is early-20th-century tech that is abundant all over Rifts Earth.

Sambot wrote:
After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals?

Anyone who didn't go through a historical dark age would know that they were a thing.

Sambot wrote:
Why would they communicate with them?

This seems like you're shifting the burden of proof here. Both the folks on the ground and the folks in space clearly have the means to see, listen, and talk with each other over the radio. Moreover, both communities would have folks who actively monitor various frequencies for various reasons (security, bandwidth management, et cetera). HAM radio operators talk to each other all the time for no particular reason. The total isolation is something MiO should be establishing and reinforcing. It should explain this, and it doesn't.

Sambot wrote:
Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?"

All kinds of stuff.
"Hey, humans have survived down there? Wow!"
"Wow yourself. Humans have survived in space?"
"Hey, I can see a major threat moving toward you."
"Oh nuts, and I can't reach the NGR to request help."
"No problem, I'll relay for you."
"Gee, thanks! Anything I can do in return?"
"Why sure! Maybe you could help us get some water up here?"
"Well, we tried getting up there a while back, didn't go so well."
"Oh, that was you guys? Sorry about that! Just let us know next time you send something up and we'll let it through."


Even if the debris field was too nasty, just having some basic communications and realtime satellite imagery would be en enormous boon to the folks on the planet, and by empowering the humans below, the Orbitals would be more secure in the long run, as the humans below could reduce the likelihood of threats on the surface trying to come up.

Sambot wrote:
And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

Operational military communications would likely be encrypted. Others, not so much. Encryption isn't as prevalent as you might think even in the real-life military.

Sambot wrote:
I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

Off the top of my head:
Every city with lights.
Chi-Town
Naval vessels
Roads and traffic
Large aircraft
Pretty much everything you can see on Google Earth, really.

Sambot wrote:
I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


If the Splugorth are the reason for the Earth/Orbital divide and you can think up a plausible mechanism, go for it. That's a very different take than your defense of the MiO setting-as-written.

I personally find the premise of Mutants in Orbit to be nonsensical from a sociological, historical, and physical standpoint, and I don't care for the book's dual-setting approach and presentation style. But that's just me, and we're talking about a part of the overall Rifts setting that is so isolated from the rest that it's essentially irrelevant, so in practice I simply ignore this book's existence. If Mutants in Orbit works for you, then enjoy it, and don't worry about the fact that this book breaks immersion too much for me to enjoy it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:28 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
RUE p261 states that all Dead Boy armor are suitable for space.

Which is odd, since the Coalition States have no access to space.
I can't remember reading anything about them having any vacuum chambers.

I believe I remember reading somewhere that they had tried to access LEO, but all rockets/crews/etc. were lost...just like every other attempt. But still...

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 6:58 pm
  

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
Radiators work in space. Whether the Dead Boy armour's thermal control system works effectively in a vacuum is a valid question although the canon says that it does.


Last edited by Natasha on Mon May 25, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:19 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
Mack wrote:
RUE p261 states that all Dead Boy armor are suitable for space.

Which is odd, since the Coalition States have no access to space.
I can't remember reading anything about them having any vacuum chambers.

I believe I remember reading somewhere that they had tried to access LEO, but all rockets/crews/etc. were lost...just like every other attempt. But still...


Well Dead Boy armor could have been based off of armor initially made for the US Space Force during the Golden Age, much like a good portion of their early military hardware was based off of Golden Age tech.

As for that last part, both they and the NGR have failed to get into space. This is mentioned in the Rifts section of MiO.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 2:00 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Borast wrote:
Mack wrote:
RUE p261 states that all Dead Boy armor are suitable for space.

Which is odd, since the Coalition States have no access to space.
I can't remember reading anything about them having any vacuum chambers.

I believe I remember reading somewhere that they had tried to access LEO, but all rockets/crews/etc. were lost...just like every other attempt. But still...


Well Dead Boy armor could have been based off of armor initially made for the US Space Force during the Golden Age, much like a good portion of their early military hardware was based off of Golden Age tech.

As for that last part, both they and the NGR have failed to get into space. This is mentioned in the Rifts section of MiO.


We're talking about environmentally sealed hard armor that has radiation protection, oxygen storage, and won't be torn apart by vacuum.
What else does a space suit need?
:?

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 2:30 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
We're talking about environmentally sealed hard armor that has radiation protection, oxygen storage, and won't be torn apart by vacuum.
What else does a space suit need?
:?


Propulsion. Or at least attitude adjusters.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 4:26 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
We're talking about environmentally sealed hard armor that has radiation protection, oxygen storage, and won't be torn apart by vacuum.
What else does a space suit need?
:?


Propulsion. Or at least attitude adjusters.


CO2 scrubbers too, though they would likely be included in standard environmental armor too. I'm guessing that environmental armor internal air systems are basically rebreathers.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:24 am
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
We're talking about environmentally sealed hard armor that has radiation protection, oxygen storage, and won't be torn apart by vacuum.
What else does a space suit need?
:?


Propulsion. Or at least attitude adjusters.

No (real world) space suit that I know of has built-in propulsion. All space suits that need propulsion use hand-held or backpack-add-ons. Attitude adjustment is provided by the wearer's own muscle powered movements.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:28 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
CO2 scrubbers too, though they would likely be included in standard environmental armor too. I'm guessing that environmental armor internal air systems are basically rebreathers.


That would depend on how long they can go while on sealed systems... A couple hours at most, no. Most of the day, probable.
After all, we're talking about a world where a reactor capable of powering something like a Glitterboy weighs about the same as a microwave oven. In that case, the air tanks can be absurdly small...

Anyway, I have to catch my bus to work... Ciao.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:03 pm
  

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Riftmaker wrote:
Rifts orbit could use an update, and that setting is VERY under used. I'd love to see a new source book updating it.


Me too.









Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

The separation itself makes no sense to me absent something that actively cuts off communications and visually distorts light both ways. We know that isn't a thing, since ARCHIE 3 controls and communicates with a satellite.


All kinds of environmental things can effect communications. Even now a storm can knockout Dish TV. I don't think a nuclear winter decades long would help. And that presumes there's someone on Earth capable of transmitting. I'd guess there is in Orbit but after a few years of no replies, I would think they'd stop trying.
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.


Was anyone using Radios then? I know Ham radio has been on the decline for ages and more and more cars have satellite radio.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters.

They'd also be able to see human communities from space.


Do they know they're human communities?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Who would they communicate with?

Literally anyone with a radio. This is early-20th-century tech that is abundant all over Rifts Earth.


Presuming they have radios. A lot of technology got wiped out and what wasn't eliminated was greatly reduced. There's also a difference in technology. The space stations would be more advanced than those still on Earth. It'd be like trying to watch TV now with an analog TV and no converter box.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals?

Anyone who didn't go through a historical dark age would know that they were a thing.


So pretty much everyone on Earth wouldn't know about them unless, they found old records about them.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why would they communicate with them?

This seems like you're shifting the burden of proof here. Both the folks on the ground and the folks in space clearly have the means to see, listen, and talk with each other over the radio. Moreover, both communities would have folks who actively monitor various frequencies for various reasons (security, bandwidth management, et cetera). HAM radio operators talk to each other all the time for no particular reason. The total isolation is something MiO should be establishing and reinforcing. It should explain this, and it doesn't.


They might have the means to see each other but that doesn't mean they know each other. Nor does it mean they can communicate. Technology has changed, people have died off. That HAM radio exists now doesn't mean it'd exist pre-Rifts much less after. HAM radio is dying off now. All but one of the HAM radio operators I knew are dead. And they were doing more on the internet than they were on the radio.
So that tech may not exist or be very limited. Even if communications were established, who'd believe them?

"So you say you communicated with Humans in outer space?"
"Yes Sir!"
"Very interesting. How about you tell these nice doctors all about it?"
"Yes, Private. Just slip on this nice sweater my colleges are holding and we can go to my padded office where you can tell us all about it."

Remember they're groups that shoot first and ask questions later.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?"

All kinds of stuff.
"Hey, humans have survived down there? Wow!"
"Wow yourself. Humans have survived in space?"
"Hey, I can see a major threat moving toward you."
"Oh nuts, and I can't reach the NGR to request help."
"No problem, I'll relay for you."
"Gee, thanks! Anything I can do in return?"
"Why sure! Maybe you could help us get some water up here?"
"Well, we tried getting up there a while back, didn't go so well."
"Oh, that was you guys? Sorry about that! Just let us know next time you send something up and we'll let it through."


Even if the debris field was too nasty, just having some basic communications and realtime satellite imagery would be en enormous boon to the folks on the planet, and by empowering the humans below, the Orbitals would be more secure in the long run, as the humans below could reduce the likelihood of threats on the surface trying to come up.


Or more likely;
"Sir! The Demons on Earth are trying to make contact again! Their requesting our knowledge of their neighbor's troop movement."
"We won't fall for that trick. Give them some false information."
and
"Sir! It's those Alien invaders in orbit on the phone again. They're trying to get us to shift troops, Sir!"
"Damn Aliens! They're trying to sucker us into weakening our position. Well we'll fix that! Order the boarder troops to maintain position and send them reinforcements."

Again they don't know each other and have no way of really verifying the other's identity.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

Operational military communications would likely be encrypted. Others, not so much. Encryption isn't as prevalent as you might think even in the real-life military.


Just going from digital to analog has issues. Dish won't work with Direct TV. There's Bluetooth and those without. There's all kinds of technical issues where communications may not be clear. And then there's just trust. There isn't any. They shoot first and ask questions later.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

Off the top of my head:
Every city with lights.
Chi-Town
Naval vessels
Roads and traffic
Large aircraft
Pretty much everything you can see on Google Earth, really.


So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


If the Splugorth are the reason for the Earth/Orbital divide and you can think up a plausible mechanism, go for it. That's a very different take than your defense of the MiO setting-as-written.


Which is one reason why the setting needs an update. Who or what has been trying to get into orbit that the Orbitals need to keep shooting down? If no one has been trying do they still need to reinforce the fields of killer satellites?

I also have no idea if the Splugorth are involved or not but it makes sense. Send up a raiding party every now and then and the Orbitals freak out and start pumping out killer satellites. Humans remain divided. Job done.



Quote:
I personally find the premise of Mutants in Orbit to be nonsensical from a sociological, historical, and physical standpoint, and I don't care for the book's dual-setting approach and presentation style. But that's just me, and we're talking about a part of the overall Rifts setting that is so isolated from the rest that it's essentially irrelevant, so in practice I simply ignore this book's existence. If Mutants in Orbit works for you, then enjoy it, and don't worry about the fact that this book breaks immersion too much for me to enjoy it.


I'd have to agree to disagree on the first part because I think it does make sense. I don't care for the dual setting either. I do think there could be similar settings for Rifts and AFTB but their both being in one book hurts. Write each separately and have conversion notes. It is true that it's been isolated. Which is a bummer. It's also a bummer you can't enjoy it. :( I hope you can one day. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:36 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

The separation itself makes no sense to me absent something that actively cuts off communications and visually distorts light both ways. We know that isn't a thing, since ARCHIE 3 controls and communicates with a satellite.


All kinds of environmental things can effect communications. Even now a storm can knockout Dish TV. I don't think a nuclear winter decades long would help. And that presumes there's someone on Earth capable of transmitting. I'd guess there is in Orbit but after a few years of no replies, I would think they'd stop trying.
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

I believe he was always in control of it.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.


Was anyone using Radios then? I know Ham radio has been on the decline for ages and more and more cars have satellite radio.

HAM radio has been a thing since ~1900; radios are basic tech that's abundant in RMB and RUE.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters.

They'd also be able to see human communities from space.


Do they know they're human communities?

Considering that one of the largest tech-nations is big on human supremacy and propaganda, I would think that would be pretty easy to figure out. People who can survive in space for hundreds of years aren't going to be idiots.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Who would they communicate with?

Literally anyone with a radio. This is early-20th-century tech that is abundant all over Rifts Earth.


Presuming they have radios. A lot of technology got wiped out and what wasn't eliminated was greatly reduced. There's also a difference in technology. The space stations would be more advanced than those still on Earth. It'd be like trying to watch TV now with an analog TV and no converter box.

The languages are the same, the tech skills are the same, and signal processing fundamentals don't change much. They'd be actively intercepting and decoding each other's signals, and they would be doing the same with signals coming from Earth. People who live and work in space for centuries aren't idiots.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals?

Anyone who didn't go through a historical dark age would know that they were a thing.


So pretty much everyone on Earth wouldn't know about them unless, they found old records about them.

Triax would know about them. The New Navy would know about them. The modern cities in Japan would know about them. Erin Tarn wrote about people in orbit being a thing prior to the Coming of the Rifts in RMB. People on Rifts Earth aren't idiots, either.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why would they communicate with them?

This seems like you're shifting the burden of proof here. Both the folks on the ground and the folks in space clearly have the means to see, listen, and talk with each other over the radio. Moreover, both communities would have folks who actively monitor various frequencies for various reasons (security, bandwidth management, et cetera). HAM radio operators talk to each other all the time for no particular reason. The total isolation is something MiO should be establishing and reinforcing. It should explain this, and it doesn't.


They might have the means to see each other but that doesn't mean they know each other. Nor does it mean they can communicate. Technology has changed, people have died off. That HAM radio exists now doesn't mean it'd exist pre-Rifts much less after. HAM radio is dying off now. All but one of the HAM radio operators I knew are dead. And they were doing more on the internet than they were on the radio.
So that tech may not exist or be very limited. Even if communications were established, who'd believe them?

"So you say you communicated with Humans in outer space?"
"Yes Sir!"
"Very interesting. How about you tell these nice doctors all about it?"
"Yes, Private. Just slip on this nice sweater my colleges are holding and we can go to my padded office where you can tell us all about it."

Remember they're groups that shoot first and ask questions later.

And after the 1379th private reports the same thing, they'd probably realize that there's something going on up there. Also, your characterization of these groups belies the setting as put forth in the books. The C.S. is very interested in reaching out and forming partnerships (Columbia, the NGR, other human-dominated nations in North America). They don't just shoot first and then ask who's there. The C.S. isn't stupid (though admittedly some of their policies are). Even if the C.S. decided to not even try to talk to the folks upstairs because fascism is stupid evil, that doesn't explain why the NGR wouldn't, or the modern Japanese cities, or the New Navy.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?"

All kinds of stuff.
"Hey, humans have survived down there? Wow!"
"Wow yourself. Humans have survived in space?"
"Hey, I can see a major threat moving toward you."
"Oh nuts, and I can't reach the NGR to request help."
"No problem, I'll relay for you."
"Gee, thanks! Anything I can do in return?"
"Why sure! Maybe you could help us get some water up here?"
"Well, we tried getting up there a while back, didn't go so well."
"Oh, that was you guys? Sorry about that! Just let us know next time you send something up and we'll let it through."


Even if the debris field was too nasty, just having some basic communications and realtime satellite imagery would be en enormous boon to the folks on the planet, and by empowering the humans below, the Orbitals would be more secure in the long run, as the humans below could reduce the likelihood of threats on the surface trying to come up.


Or more likely;
"Sir! The Demons on Earth are trying to make contact again! Their requesting our knowledge of their neighbor's troop movement."
"We won't fall for that trick. Give them some false information."
and
"Sir! It's those Alien invaders in orbit on the phone again. They're trying to get us to shift troops, Sir!"
"Damn Aliens! They're trying to sucker us into weakening our position. Well we'll fix that! Order the boarder troops to maintain position and send them reinforcements."

Again they don't know each other and have no way of really verifying the other's identity.

You mean beside the fact that they can literally look at each other and talk to each other? I mean I realize it's a lot of distance, but unless there's some crazy interference going on, telescopes and basic audio, video, and data transmission should work fine. And it does, because ARCHIE 3 has a satellite.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

Operational military communications would likely be encrypted. Others, not so much. Encryption isn't as prevalent as you might think even in the real-life military.


Just going from digital to analog has issues. Dish won't work with Direct TV. There's Bluetooth and those without. There's all kinds of technical issues where communications may not be clear. And then there's just trust. There isn't any. They shoot first and ask questions later.

And decryption is a skill that exists in orbit and on Earth. You seem fixated on this idea that everyone in Rifts and in orbit shoots people on sight for no reason before they even try to talk. I don't get that impression from the books.

Also, there's nothing to shoot. Both parties are hundreds to thousands of miles removed from each other.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

Off the top of my head:
Every city with lights.
Chi-Town
Naval vessels
Roads and traffic
Large aircraft
Pretty much everything you can see on Google Earth, really.


So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...

...and the humans fighting them.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


If the Splugorth are the reason for the Earth/Orbital divide and you can think up a plausible mechanism, go for it. That's a very different take than your defense of the MiO setting-as-written.


Which is one reason why the setting needs an update. Who or what has been trying to get into orbit that the Orbitals need to keep shooting down? If no one has been trying do they still need to reinforce the fields of killer satellites?

I also have no idea if the Splugorth are involved or not but it makes sense. Send up a raiding party every now and then and the Orbitals freak out and start pumping out killer satellites. Humans remain divided. Job done.

Now that would be an interesting adjustment that makes a lot more sense. The Splugorth could simply be manipulating things to keep the two sides apart. How they do this would be an interesting challenge, but it's much more plausible than the setting as written in MiO.

The fact that you have to alter the orbital setting to make it internally consistent with the rest of the setting tells me that there's something wrong with the orbital setting.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
I personally find the premise of Mutants in Orbit to be nonsensical from a sociological, historical, and physical standpoint, and I don't care for the book's dual-setting approach and presentation style. But that's just me, and we're talking about a part of the overall Rifts setting that is so isolated from the rest that it's essentially irrelevant, so in practice I simply ignore this book's existence. If Mutants in Orbit works for you, then enjoy it, and don't worry about the fact that this book breaks immersion too much for me to enjoy it.


I'd have to agree to disagree on the first part because I think it does make sense. I don't care for the dual setting either. I do think there could be similar settings for Rifts and AFTB but their both being in one book hurts. Write each separately and have conversion notes. It is true that it's been isolated. Which is a bummer. It's also a bummer you can't enjoy it. :( I hope you can one day. :)


I'm glad you can enjoy the premise of Mutants in Orbit as presented. For me, there are too many immersion-breaking issues to make it work. While it's certainly possible to change the orbital setting to work better (see or read The Expanse for a great outer space setting), Mutants in Orbit fails at too much to be worth the effort of making it work as written. In any case, the rest of the Rifts setting is more than enough for me.

You seem to argue from the conclusion that MiO makes sense and assume that people in orbit and on Earth are, without exception, willfully ignorant xenophobes who shoot at anything and anyone new. That's not consistent with the setting I see presented in the rest of the Rifts books. I'll grant you that the premise of total isolation could make sense if you altered the setting such that some great power or intelligence is actively keeping them divided. You favor having the Splugorth manipulate the situation to isolate both communities from each other, which could work. I prefer to have a man-made machine intelligence like ARCHIE isolating Earth. Either works better than what I see in MiO.

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Last edited by Hotrod on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:35 am
  

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small point of detail: ol' archie has access to a satellite. not control. the other A.R.C.H.I.E just hasn't noticed/understood the matter and imposed restrictions on the 200-year old codes being used. given how paranoid(android) archie is, he's probably being VERY careful about how often he brings it into play.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:03 pm
  

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Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

Off the top of my head:
Every city with lights.
Chi-Town
Naval vessels
Roads and traffic
Large aircraft
Pretty much everything you can see on Google Earth, really.


So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...




Well, since GE can't see those, no, they can't. ;)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:01 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Riftmaker wrote:
Rifts orbit could use an update, and that setting is VERY under used. I'd love to see a new source book updating it.


Me too.

Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

The separation itself makes no sense to me absent something that actively cuts off communications and visually distorts light both ways. We know that isn't a thing, since ARCHIE 3 controls and communicates with a satellite.


All kinds of environmental things can effect communications. Even now a storm can knockout Dish TV. I don't think a nuclear winter decades long would help. And that presumes there's someone on Earth capable of transmitting. I'd guess there is in Orbit but after a few years of no replies, I would think they'd stop trying.
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.


Was anyone using Radios then? I know Ham radio has been on the decline for ages and more and more cars have satellite radio.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters.

They'd also be able to see human communities from space.


Do they know they're human communities?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Who would they communicate with?

Literally anyone with a radio. This is early-20th-century tech that is abundant all over Rifts Earth.


Presuming they have radios. A lot of technology got wiped out and what wasn't eliminated was greatly reduced. There's also a difference in technology. The space stations would be more advanced than those still on Earth. It'd be like trying to watch TV now with an analog TV and no converter box.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals?

Anyone who didn't go through a historical dark age would know that they were a thing.


So pretty much everyone on Earth wouldn't know about them unless, they found old records about them.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why would they communicate with them?

This seems like you're shifting the burden of proof here. Both the folks on the ground and the folks in space clearly have the means to see, listen, and talk with each other over the radio. Moreover, both communities would have folks who actively monitor various frequencies for various reasons (security, bandwidth management, et cetera). HAM radio operators talk to each other all the time for no particular reason. The total isolation is something MiO should be establishing and reinforcing. It should explain this, and it doesn't.


They might have the means to see each other but that doesn't mean they know each other. Nor does it mean they can communicate. Technology has changed, people have died off. That HAM radio exists now doesn't mean it'd exist pre-Rifts much less after. HAM radio is dying off now. All but one of the HAM radio operators I knew are dead. And they were doing more on the internet than they were on the radio.
So that tech may not exist or be very limited. Even if communications were established, who'd believe them?

"So you say you communicated with Humans in outer space?"
"Yes Sir!"
"Very interesting. How about you tell these nice doctors all about it?"
"Yes, Private. Just slip on this nice sweater my colleges are holding and we can go to my padded office where you can tell us all about it."

Remember they're groups that shoot first and ask questions later.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?"

All kinds of stuff.
"Hey, humans have survived down there? Wow!"
"Wow yourself. Humans have survived in space?"
"Hey, I can see a major threat moving toward you."
"Oh nuts, and I can't reach the NGR to request help."
"No problem, I'll relay for you."
"Gee, thanks! Anything I can do in return?"
"Why sure! Maybe you could help us get some water up here?"
"Well, we tried getting up there a while back, didn't go so well."
"Oh, that was you guys? Sorry about that! Just let us know next time you send something up and we'll let it through."


Even if the debris field was too nasty, just having some basic communications and realtime satellite imagery would be en enormous boon to the folks on the planet, and by empowering the humans below, the Orbitals would be more secure in the long run, as the humans below could reduce the likelihood of threats on the surface trying to come up.


Or more likely;
"Sir! The Demons on Earth are trying to make contact again! Their requesting our knowledge of their neighbor's troop movement."
"We won't fall for that trick. Give them some false information."
and
"Sir! It's those Alien invaders in orbit on the phone again. They're trying to get us to shift troops, Sir!"
"Damn Aliens! They're trying to sucker us into weakening our position. Well we'll fix that! Order the boarder troops to maintain position and send them reinforcements."

Again they don't know each other and have no way of really verifying the other's identity.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

Operational military communications would likely be encrypted. Others, not so much. Encryption isn't as prevalent as you might think even in the real-life military.


Just going from digital to analog has issues. Dish won't work with Direct TV. There's Bluetooth and those without. There's all kinds of technical issues where communications may not be clear. And then there's just trust. There isn't any. They shoot first and ask questions later.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

Off the top of my head:
Every city with lights.
Chi-Town
Naval vessels
Roads and traffic
Large aircraft
Pretty much everything you can see on Google Earth, really.


So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


If the Splugorth are the reason for the Earth/Orbital divide and you can think up a plausible mechanism, go for it. That's a very different take than your defense of the MiO setting-as-written.


Which is one reason why the setting needs an update. Who or what has been trying to get into orbit that the Orbitals need to keep shooting down? If no one has been trying do they still need to reinforce the fields of killer satellites?

I also have no idea if the Splugorth are involved or not but it makes sense. Send up a raiding party every now and then and the Orbitals freak out and start pumping out killer satellites. Humans remain divided. Job done.



Quote:
I personally find the premise of Mutants in Orbit to be nonsensical from a sociological, historical, and physical standpoint, and I don't care for the book's dual-setting approach and presentation style. But that's just me, and we're talking about a part of the overall Rifts setting that is so isolated from the rest that it's essentially irrelevant, so in practice I simply ignore this book's existence. If Mutants in Orbit works for you, then enjoy it, and don't worry about the fact that this book breaks immersion too much for me to enjoy it.


I'd have to agree to disagree on the first part because I think it does make sense. I don't care for the dual setting either. I do think there could be similar settings for Rifts and AFTB but their both being in one book hurts. Write each separately and have conversion notes. It is true that it's been isolated. Which is a bummer. It's also a bummer you can't enjoy it. :( I hope you can one day. :)


the reality of radio is obviously something you don't seem to understand,
the names of the 2 main conventional radio actually tell you how the signal is encoded onto the carrier wave.
AM Radio. = Amplitude Modulation IE a base radio wave is generated and a second signal is encoded on it which messes with the amplitude (height) of the wave.
FM Radio is Frequency modulation, IE the second Signal is imposed which modifies the base frequency of the wave.

direct TV and dish, are conflicting competitor services so the fact that they have been made incompatible BY DESIGN is not a valid arguement.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:54 pm
  

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Radio signals get intercepted all the time, even on accident.
So yes, just from that, people on Earth and in orbit would know of each-other.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:38 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
Radio signals get intercepted all the time, even on accident.
So yes, just from that, people on Earth and in orbit would know of each-other.


Not necessarily from Earth's perspective. Any radio transmissions they pick up they could dismiss as coming through a rift.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:35 pm
  

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Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:04 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


They’d have to do that pretty regularly, as new stuff would keep coming out of Rifts.
And that’s IF the attack wasn’t stopped by Atlantis or something.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:58 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


They’d have to do that pretty regularly, as new stuff would keep coming out of Rifts.
And that’s IF the attack wasn’t stopped by Atlantis or something.


It doesn't take all that big of a rock to blot out the sun for a good long time. Without the sun, the food chain collapses and Earth becomes an ice ball. Sure, stuff would come out of the Rifts, but unless that stuff doesn't rely on anything but magic energy, that stuff is going to die fast.

Without having their own space assets, I don't see how Atlantis could stop it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:02 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


do you WANT those monsters to realize something's up there for them to come after? targeted strikes are gonna blow their cover pretty fast. besides, there's nothing to prove that'd kill them, they seem to not need sustinance...mst of the dinosaurs weren't killed by the impact...

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:16 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


They’d have to do that pretty regularly, as new stuff would keep coming out of Rifts.
And that’s IF the attack wasn’t stopped by Atlantis or something.


It doesn't take all that big of a rock to blot out the sun for a good long time. Without the sun, the food chain collapses and Earth becomes an ice ball. Sure, stuff would come out of the Rifts, but unless that stuff doesn't rely on anything but magic energy, that stuff is going to die fast.

Without having their own space assets, I don't see how Atlantis could stop it.


That is where the point that the splugs would step in and they grossly out-power the Mutants in Orbit.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:24 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


They’d have to do that pretty regularly, as new stuff would keep coming out of Rifts.
And that’s IF the attack wasn’t stopped by Atlantis or something.


It doesn't take all that big of a rock to blot out the sun for a good long time. Without the sun, the food chain collapses and Earth becomes an ice ball. Sure, stuff would come out of the Rifts, but unless that stuff doesn't rely on anything but magic energy, that stuff is going to die fast.

Without having their own space assets, I don't see how Atlantis could stop it.


That is where the point that the splugs would step in and they grossly out-power the Mutants in Orbit.


They have 6 dragon dreadnaughts in Atlantis, which wouldn't cut it. What else do they have on Rifts Earth that's space capable? By the time the Splugs could bring anything bigger in, it would probably be too late to stop the utter ecological ruin. Heck, a single strike could make Earth uninhabitable. That's assuming they didn't get pasted by a gigantic rock slamming into Atlantis at 80 kilometers per second and blowing up with a few orders of magnitude more energy than Tsar Bomba.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:26 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
They have 6 dragon dreadnaughts in Atlantis, which wouldn't cut it. What else do they have on Rifts Earth that's space capable? By the time the Splugs could bring anything bigger in, it would probably be too late to stop the utter ecological ruin. Heck, a single strike could make Earth uninhabitable. That's assuming they didn't get pasted by a gigantic rock slamming into Atlantis at 80 kilometers per second and blowing up with a few orders of magnitude more energy than Tsar Bomba.


But how many Slave Barges? Insecton Land Rovers? Or Serpent Power armors? Equestrian Power Armors? Creax? In addition to the Dragon Dreadnaughts, all of those mention their suitability to space. There are 10 million Kittani on Atlantis, to say nothing of the Power Lords (whose armor would likely do quite well in space), and achieving orbit would be pretty easy... to say nothing of resources that may get Rifted in with a bit of time to prepare.... how much space-specific tech could Splynn have on site fromt he Three Galaxies if he had a couple days? A couple weeks? A couple months? How long would it take to get a sizable asteroid in and Thor shot it, and how many Clairvoyants would see it coming (because I tend to think ELE is the kind of thing that Clairvoyance would give some warning about)?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:29 am
  

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I think if one wanted to keep MiO nominally as-is, then the Splugorth could not only detect an attempted asteroid strike well in advance, but marshal forces to stomp out any future attempts. At a glance I'd say 1-2 Servitor-class cruisers with full deployment could dominate the entirety of Rifts space, and an arrangement to store them within the domains of any of several of the other Splugorth can be narratively justified.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:29 am
  

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If it would be that easy for the Splugorth to get to orbit and dominate it, wouldn't they already have done so? Yes, they have millions of space-capable suits and craft, but the only vehicles they have capable of getting to orbit on Rifts Earth that I know of are the Dragon Dreadnaughts.

Also, even if we can accept that the Splugorth could see an asteroid bombardment coming and do something to stop it, why would that deter the Orbitals? If they're so clueless about what's going on below that they don't know that there are many humans living and thriving on the surface, how would they know and understand the capabilities of the Splugorth?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:30 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
If it would be that easy for the Splugorth to get to orbit and dominate it, wouldn't they already have done so? Yes, they have millions of space-capable suits and craft, but the only vehicles they have capable of getting to orbit on Rifts Earth that I know of are the Dragon Dreadnaughts.

Also, even if we can accept that the Splugorth could see an asteroid bombardment coming and do something to stop it, why would that deter the Orbitals? If they're so clueless about what's going on below that they don't know that there are many humans living and thriving on the surface, how would they know and understand the capabilities of the Splugorth?

No the Splugorth would not already have done so. Fot3G when discussing the Splugorth state that while the Kittani Minions see value in space, those higher up the chain have a "blind spot" for this realm which is only "recently" starting to change due to influence of the Kittani (who enjoy "higher" status than normal in this realm).

It might also be worth remembering that we are really only talking about Splyn, and there seems to be some treaty in place about the extent of his holdings on Earth. There might be a "space" clause somewhere preventing him from doing much of anything. There is also the Nazca Line Defenses (that are a pain to the Arkhons) to consider (what influences does it exert unintentionally to the containment of Earth).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:56 pm
  

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So we're left with the original problem: smashing Earth with big rocks at 80 km per second on purpose is easier and cheaper than sustaining a blockade, the Orbitals believe that nothing human remains there and Earth is just a threat to them. They have no reason not to do this.

On the flipside, we have Splugorth who don't care about space and have very little on Earth that can get into orbit even without the blockade, we have the Nazca who can fight off an invasion force from space in a limited region, and we have a bunch of psychics who might sense that a horrible threat is coming, but no-one with actual capability to stop it in the setting as described.

A rock like that coming in at a steep angle will go from the upper atmosphere to a surface impact in about 1 second, so any kind of meaningful response once it's in the atmosphere isn't really plausible. The effects would be fairly similar to the natural disasters common in the Coming of the Rifts: nuclear blast-like effects for many miles around, massive earthquakes and waves hundreds to thousands of miles away, and so much dust thrown up into the upper atmosphere that Earth would enter a new ice age.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:53 pm
  

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Honestly, i really loved the idea and concept of MiO, but the execution was garbage. For basically all the reasons mentioned in the thread. I did use some of the stuff in the books, mostly gear and ship creation rules. But the plot and setting in general? Trash. I threw away all but the most basic stuff, and brushed out some general generic crap that i felt made more sense. I feel like rifts could use an updated/dedicated rewrite.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:57 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
So we're left with the original problem: smashing Earth with big rocks at 80 km per second on purpose is easier and cheaper than sustaining a blockade, the Orbitals believe that nothing human remains there and Earth is just a threat to them. They have no reason not to do this.

On the flipside, we have Splugorth who don't care about space and have very little on Earth that can get into orbit even without the blockade, we have the Nazca who can fight off an invasion force from space in a limited region, and we have a bunch of psychics who might sense that a horrible threat is coming, but no-one with actual capability to stop it in the setting as described.

A rock like that coming in at a steep angle will go from the upper atmosphere to a surface impact in about 1 second, so any kind of meaningful response once it's in the atmosphere isn't really plausible. The effects would be fairly similar to the natural disasters common in the Coming of the Rifts: nuclear blast-like effects for many miles around, massive earthquakes and waves hundreds to thousands of miles away, and so much dust thrown up into the upper atmosphere that Earth would enter a new ice age.


you seem to be confused about rocks being free.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:11 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
I believe he was always in control of it.


So Archie might know what's going on in orbit?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.


Was anyone using Radios then? I know Ham radio has been on the decline for ages and more and more cars have satellite radio.

HAM radio has been a thing since ~1900; radios are basic tech that's abundant in RMB and RUE.


Maybe. Maybe not. Just because somethings been around a long time doesn't mean it will always be so. Where can one buy film for cameras now? The military is also pretty much all digital now. Would ham radios still work or would a converter be needed? Would anyone even know about them? A lot of technology is lot just because it isn't used now. We're having to reinvent space travel because NASA stopped sending people into space. The Rifts would have magnified that loss of technology on a global scale. If one of those surviving centers didn't use a piece of technology then they're not going to have it. And even if they did, would they go back to it? Would the Coalition produce VCRs and 8-Track Players because they have the technology to do so or would they go with a digital player?

I hope HAM radios are still in use but I don't know if they would be as I've witnessed their declining use. And yes, while radios are still in use that doesn't mean they're always compatible. Analog and Digital don't always mix.


Quote:
Do they know they're human communities?

Considering that one of the largest tech-nations is big on human supremacy and propaganda, I would think that would be pretty easy to figure out. People who can survive in space for hundreds of years aren't going to be idiots.[/quote]

I didn't say they were idiots but seeing a "human" community and knowing a human community are different things. How do they know those humans aren't enslaved or possessed? Are they even human? Looks can be deceiving. They could be aliens or demons that look very similar. Atlanteans, Lemurians, Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Dragons, Changlings, Were Creatures, etc.



Quote:
The languages are the same, the tech skills are the same, and signal processing fundamentals don't change much. They'd be actively intercepting and decoding each other's signals, and they would be doing the same with signals coming from Earth. People who live and work in space for centuries aren't idiots.


Again I didn't say they were idiots. The languages however may not be the same. Languages drift. Locations get accents and their own dialects. Remember the movie Chicken Run? The Scottish chicken says something and Mel Gibson's chicked asks, "Was that English?" And what signals would they be intercepting? Communications have a limited range and they can be effected by weather. Even satellites are. And even if they do intercept and decode the signals, why would they believe what they hear? It could be anything speaking. And even if they were human, they shoot anyone not born on Earth and many who are. Why should they think if they went to Earth they wouldn't be declared, Aliens wearing Human Skin Suits?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So pretty much everyone on Earth wouldn't know about them unless, they found old records about them.

Triax would know about them. The New Navy would know about them. The modern cities in Japan would know about them. Erin Tarn wrote about people in orbit being a thing prior to the Coming of the Rifts in RMB. People on Rifts Earth aren't idiots, either.


Again, I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I also wouldn't say that those organizations and people know about them. They might have records of them but that doesn't mean anyone's looked at said records other then Erin Tarn. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that they know they exist. After all communications were lost. If they believe them to be lost, why would they try to communicate with them?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They might have the means to see each other but that doesn't mean they know each other. Nor does it mean they can communicate. Technology has changed, people have died off. That HAM radio exists now doesn't mean it'd exist pre-Rifts much less after. HAM radio is dying off now. All but one of the HAM radio operators I knew are dead. And they were doing more on the internet than they were on the radio.
So that tech may not exist or be very limited. Even if communications were established, who'd believe them?


And after the 1379th private reports the same thing, they'd probably realize that there's something going on up there. Also, your characterization of these groups belies the setting as put forth in the books. The C.S. is very interested in reaching out and forming partnerships (Columbia, the NGR, other human-dominated nations in North America). They don't just shoot first and then ask who's there. The C.S. isn't stupid (though admittedly some of their policies are). Even if the C.S. decided to not even try to talk to the folks upstairs because fascism is stupid evil, that doesn't explain why the NGR wouldn't, or the modern Japanese cities, or the New Navy.


Probably. Then again, would that many privates report the same thing? Or after watching private 199 be carted off, would private number 200 when asked reply, "Nothing to report, Sir! All quiet here."? And yes those groups are reaching out and forming partnerships. They can also see and verify that they're speaking with other humans. That's kind of hard to do without actually meeting. Which the orbitals and grounders aren't able to do. Do those other groups even know the orbital stations still exist? How busy are they with issues on the planet around them to look to the stars?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Again they don't know each other and have no way of really verifying the other's identity.

You mean beside the fact that they can literally look at each other and talk to each other? I mean I realize it's a lot of distance, but unless there's some crazy interference going on, telescopes and basic audio, video, and data transmission should work fine. And it does, because ARCHIE 3 has a satellite.


Even if they were looking, and trying to communicate with each other, that doesn't mean they can verify they're who they say they are. So ARCHIE 3 has a satellite. What kind is it? Where's it aimed? Would ARCHIE let anyone use it?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Just going from digital to analog has issues. Dish won't work with Direct TV. There's Bluetooth and those without. There's all kinds of technical issues where communications may not be clear. And then there's just trust. There isn't any. They shoot first and ask questions later.

And decryption is a skill that exists in orbit and on Earth. You seem fixated on this idea that everyone in Rifts and in orbit shoots people on sight for no reason before they even try to talk. I don't get that impression from the books.

Also, there's nothing to shoot. Both parties are hundreds to thousands of miles removed from each other.


Decryption isn't automatic. It's a chance. Those better at it have a better chance of succeeding but they could still fail. It also doesn't mean they have the tools. There's writing that exists now that no one can translate because those who could have been dead a long time.

I'm also pretty sure that I read "shoot first and ask questions later" in the books but I'm not going to go looking through all the books right now. However, the presence of the killer satellites does indicate that the orbitals don't trust anything on Earth and would rather blast it than talk to it.

And their being so far apart is a reason not to trust each other.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...

...and the humans fighting them.


Are they human though? And if they are are they enslaved, possessed or willing servants?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Which is one reason why the setting needs an update. Who or what has been trying to get into orbit that the Orbitals need to keep shooting down? If no one has been trying do they still need to reinforce the fields of killer satellites?

I also have no idea if the Splugorth are involved or not but it makes sense. Send up a raiding party every now and then and the Orbitals freak out and start pumping out killer satellites. Humans remain divided. Job done.


Now that would be an interesting adjustment that makes a lot more sense. The Splugorth could simply be manipulating things to keep the two sides apart. How they do this would be an interesting challenge, but it's much more plausible than the setting as written in MiO.

The fact that you have to alter the orbital setting to make it internally consistent with the rest of the setting tells me that there's something wrong with the orbital setting.


Thing is the setting does seem internally consistent to me. The Rifts happen. Everyone takes damage. Communications are lost. Eventually they give up trying and concentrate on themselves. I haven't seen anything that changed that. My suggestion of the Splugorth or other group being involved, is a way to update and integrate ground and space but it'd also help explain why the orbitals keep deploying killer satellites. Something's got to be coming up to cause the orbitals problems or they'd of stopped deploying the killer satellites.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'd have to agree to disagree on the first part because I think it does make sense. I don't care for the dual setting either. I do think there could be similar settings for Rifts and AFTB but their both being in one book hurts. Write each separately and have conversion notes. It is true that it's been isolated. Which is a bummer. It's also a bummer you can't enjoy it. :( I hope you can one day. :)


I'm glad you can enjoy the premise of Mutants in Orbit as presented. For me, there are too many immersion-breaking issues to make it work. While it's certainly possible to change the orbital setting to work better (see or read The Expanse for a great outer space setting), Mutants in Orbit fails at too much to be worth the effort of making it work as written. In any case, the rest of the Rifts setting is more than enough for me.

You seem to argue from the conclusion that MiO makes sense and assume that people in orbit and on Earth are, without exception, willfully ignorant xenophobes who shoot at anything and anyone new. That's not consistent with the setting I see presented in the rest of the Rifts books. I'll grant you that the premise of total isolation could make sense if you altered the setting such that some great power or intelligence is actively keeping them divided. You favor having the Splugorth manipulate the situation to isolate both communities from each other, which could work. I prefer to have a man-made machine intelligence like ARCHIE isolating Earth. Either works better than what I see in MiO.

[/quote]


Why would I read someone else's version of a space setting?

I don't know about willingly ignorant but a good many of them are xenophobic who do shoot anything and anyone new. The isolation and lack on communication has always made sense to me. Why it continues, I don't know. My question is what causes the orbitals to keep deploying killer satellites? I don't know why they do but somethings got to bother them. To me the Splugorth using one of their slave races to launch raids to keep Earth divided makes sense but it could be something else. Maybe its ARCHIE3 but I would think he'd be more interested in exploring space than cutting it off. I really have no idea. It's one thing I hope will be answered in a new book about Rifts Space.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:43 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

I believe he was always in control of it.


The books don't say either way. (SB1r p92, and Shem Nation p32 & 33)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:46 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
Well, since GE can't see those, no, they can't. ;)


:)


guardiandashi wrote:
the reality of radio is obviously something you don't seem to understand,
the names of the 2 main conventional radio actually tell you how the signal is encoded onto the carrier wave.
AM Radio. = Amplitude Modulation IE a base radio wave is generated and a second signal is encoded on it which messes with the amplitude (height) of the wave.
FM Radio is Frequency modulation, IE the second Signal is imposed which modifies the base frequency of the wave.

direct TV and dish, are conflicting competitor services so the fact that they have been made incompatible BY DESIGN is not a valid arguement.


I've never been able to listen to any FM station on an AM radio.


Fenris2020 wrote:
Radio signals get intercepted all the time, even on accident.
So yes, just from that, people on Earth and in orbit would know of each-other.


Presuming the signals get that far and presuming they can decode them if necessary and presuming they believe them. There's also what HWalsh said which can go for the orbitals as well.


Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.




Why continue to produce killer satellites has been my questions. As for dropping an asteroid it's probably too much effort with too much risk. It would take a lot of resources to move the asteroid to crash into Earth. Resources that would probably be better used to mine the asteroid. Plus I don't think they'd want to get hit from any debris thrown up from the impact.

Plus it would bring the Splugorth and any other space faring groups into things. There may only be 6 dragon dreadnaughts but they do have other resources plus they could always bring more in through a rift. There's also the Arkons. I don't think they'd stand for it either and it took all the orbitals to fight them off. The Orbitals couldn't fight off both groups. And there's the Naruni. And probably others. Right now, maintaining the killer satellite network is enough. It picks off the wasps that come up. Why go smacking the nest and creating an angry swarm?


Mack wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

I believe he was always in control of it.


The books don't say either way. (SB1r p92, and Shem Nation p32 & 33)


Good to know. Thanks:)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:54 pm
  

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As an aside, on page 139 of Mercs, the Naruni Spaceplane "might be able to breach the defenses that encircle the planet (so far, nobody has bothered to try)."

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:28 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

I believe he was always in control of it.


The books don't say either way. (SB1r p92, and Shem Nation p32 & 33)


I was under the impression from the Rifter article that he gained communications access through it, not control, and ARCHIE 7 was ordered to monitor Archie's usage of the sattelite and not to let him onto the orbital communities' exsistance.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:40 pm
  

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With naruni and the sploogies there I'm surprised the CCW or the warlock worlds don't have a presense their to monitor rifts earth.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:39 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Mack wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Was Archie 3 always in control of the satellite or did he gain control over it later?

I believe he was always in control of it.


The books don't say either way. (SB1r p92, and Shem Nation p32 & 33)


I was under the impression from the Rifter article that he gained communications access through it, not control, and ARCHIE 7 was ordered to monitor Archie's usage of the sattelite and not to let him onto the orbital communities' exsistance.


I always forget about that Rifter article. (Haven't read it.) If memory serves, it is a canon article.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:53 pm
  

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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
With naruni and the sploogies there I'm surprised the CCW or the warlock worlds don't have a presense their to monitor rifts earth.


might not be aware of where it is. if so that goes a long way to explaining the wierd non-hostility deal going on, escalate and then everyone might find it and suddenly you can't become ruler of the next phase world.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:29 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
I believe he was always in control of it.


So Archie might know what's going on in orbit?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
When it comes to communications, what communications?

The same basic stuff that's been a thing since Sputnik let out radio beeps as it circled the globe back in the 1950s. Radio waves.


Was anyone using Radios then? I know Ham radio has been on the decline for ages and more and more cars have satellite radio.

HAM radio has been a thing since ~1900; radios are basic tech that's abundant in RMB and RUE.


Maybe. Maybe not. Just because somethings been around a long time doesn't mean it will always be so. Where can one buy film for cameras now? The military is also pretty much all digital now. Would ham radios still work or would a converter be needed? Would anyone even know about them? A lot of technology is lot just because it isn't used now. We're having to reinvent space travel because NASA stopped sending people into space. The Rifts would have magnified that loss of technology on a global scale. If one of those surviving centers didn't use a piece of technology then they're not going to have it. And even if they did, would they go back to it? Would the Coalition produce VCRs and 8-Track Players because they have the technology to do so or would they go with a digital player?

I hope HAM radios are still in use but I don't know if they would be as I've witnessed their declining use. And yes, while radios are still in use that doesn't mean they're always compatible. Analog and Digital don't always mix.

Radio technology is not space travel. It requires orders of magnitude less complexity, no volatile chemicals, no controlled explosions, and no major infrastructure.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Do they know they're human communities?

Considering that one of the largest tech-nations is big on human supremacy and propaganda, I would think that would be pretty easy to figure out. People who can survive in space for hundreds of years aren't going to be idiots.


I didn't say they were idiots but seeing a "human" community and knowing a human community are different things. How do they know those humans aren't enslaved or possessed? Are they even human? Looks can be deceiving. They could be aliens or demons that look very similar. Atlanteans, Lemurians, Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Dragons, Changlings, Were Creatures, etc. [/quote]

They're not idiots, they're just tin-foil-hat-level conspiracy theorists who assume, without evidence, that everything down below is a monster or minion thereof?

Not a great argument.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
The languages are the same, the tech skills are the same, and signal processing fundamentals don't change much. They'd be actively intercepting and decoding each other's signals, and they would be doing the same with signals coming from Earth. People who live and work in space for centuries aren't idiots.


Again I didn't say they were idiots. The languages however may not be the same. Languages drift. Locations get accents and their own dialects. Remember the movie Chicken Run? The Scottish chicken says something and Mel Gibson's chicked asks, "Was that English?" And what signals would they be intercepting? Communications have a limited range and they can be effected by weather. Even satellites are. And even if they do intercept and decode the signals, why would they believe what they hear? It could be anything speaking. And even if they were human, they shoot anyone not born on Earth and many who are. Why should they think if they went to Earth they wouldn't be declared, Aliens wearing Human Skin Suits?

With some exceptions, the languages spoken in orbit are little different from those spoken on Earth. There are a great many barriers between Earth and orbit in MiO, but language is not one of them.

Communications on Earth have very limited range, but that's mostly due to the Earth itself. When you can put radio signals out in space, the range goes way, way up. Weather has very little effect on radio waves; I've used very low-power handheld devices to communicate with satellites in hailstorms with no signal degradation.

Again, you're arguing from a conclusion here. The Orbitals shoot everyone coming up because they see Earth as a threat. They will ignore all communications that would indicate otherwise because they see Earth as a threat. Even with the signals that they do get, decode, and view, when they see humans talking on these signals they will just ignore them, because those humans are just aliens wearing human skin suits, because Earth is a threat.

Your position requires almost all Orbitals to hold onto beliefs despite massive evidence to the contrary. I could accept this if they were portrayed as religious fanatics or suffering from some kind of collective insanity, but that's not what MiO presents.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So pretty much everyone on Earth wouldn't know about them unless, they found old records about them.

Triax would know about them. The New Navy would know about them. The modern cities in Japan would know about them. Erin Tarn wrote about people in orbit being a thing prior to the Coming of the Rifts in RMB. People on Rifts Earth aren't idiots, either.


Again, I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I also wouldn't say that those organizations and people know about them. They might have records of them but that doesn't mean anyone's looked at said records other then Erin Tarn. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that they know they exist. After all communications were lost. If they believe them to be lost, why would they try to communicate with them?

Triax and the C.S. have both attempted to get to orbit. I find it incredulous that they wouldn't make some effort to find out what used to be up there either while they prepare such an effort or after their efforts failed. Such launches would be large-scale investments.

The suggestion that only Erin Tarn has ever looked at records of the Orbitals isn't credible. The fact that she's written about what used to be in widely-distributed books tells me that a great many people would be aware that the Orbitals at least used to exist.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They might have the means to see each other but that doesn't mean they know each other. Nor does it mean they can communicate. Technology has changed, people have died off. That HAM radio exists now doesn't mean it'd exist pre-Rifts much less after. HAM radio is dying off now. All but one of the HAM radio operators I knew are dead. And they were doing more on the internet than they were on the radio.
So that tech may not exist or be very limited. Even if communications were established, who'd believe them?


And after the 1379th private reports the same thing, they'd probably realize that there's something going on up there. Also, your characterization of these groups belies the setting as put forth in the books. The C.S. is very interested in reaching out and forming partnerships (Columbia, the NGR, other human-dominated nations in North America). They don't just shoot first and then ask who's there. The C.S. isn't stupid (though admittedly some of their policies are). Even if the C.S. decided to not even try to talk to the folks upstairs because fascism is stupid evil, that doesn't explain why the NGR wouldn't, or the modern Japanese cities, or the New Navy.


Probably. Then again, would that many privates report the same thing? Or after watching private 199 be carted off, would private number 200 when asked reply, "Nothing to report, Sir! All quiet here."? And yes those groups are reaching out and forming partnerships. They can also see and verify that they're speaking with other humans. That's kind of hard to do without actually meeting. Which the orbitals and grounders aren't able to do. Do those other groups even know the orbital stations still exist? How busy are they with issues on the planet around them to look to the stars?

Privates would report the same thing because the same thing would be happening, and they wouldn't get carted off; they'd just hand the radio to their sergeants and let them hear for themselves.

You're missing the point about face-to-face meetings between humans on Earth and in orbit. Such meetings are impossible because the Orbitals themselves have made them so, and have made them so as a result of illogical and pointlessly self-destructive motives.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Again they don't know each other and have no way of really verifying the other's identity.

You mean beside the fact that they can literally look at each other and talk to each other? I mean I realize it's a lot of distance, but unless there's some crazy interference going on, telescopes and basic audio, video, and data transmission should work fine. And it does, because ARCHIE 3 has a satellite.


Even if they were looking, and trying to communicate with each other, that doesn't mean they can verify they're who they say they are. So ARCHIE 3 has a satellite. What kind is it? Where's it aimed? Would ARCHIE let anyone use it?

Your argument is that humans operate on the principle of "I cannot verify that you are who you say you are with a face-to-face meeting, so I won't talk to you." Yet the internet exists, and we are having this conversation. Your argument is invalid.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Just going from digital to analog has issues. Dish won't work with Direct TV. There's Bluetooth and those without. There's all kinds of technical issues where communications may not be clear. And then there's just trust. There isn't any. They shoot first and ask questions later.

And decryption is a skill that exists in orbit and on Earth. You seem fixated on this idea that everyone in Rifts and in orbit shoots people on sight for no reason before they even try to talk. I don't get that impression from the books.

Also, there's nothing to shoot. Both parties are hundreds to thousands of miles removed from each other.


Decryption isn't automatic. It's a chance. Those better at it have a better chance of succeeding but they could still fail. It also doesn't mean they have the tools. There's writing that exists now that no one can translate because those who could have been dead a long time.

I'm also pretty sure that I read "shoot first and ask questions later" in the books but I'm not going to go looking through all the books right now. However, the presence of the killer satellites does indicate that the orbitals don't trust anything on Earth and would rather blast it than talk to it.

And their being so far apart is a reason not to trust each other.

Languages presented in MiO are mostly the same as on Rifts Earth, so your translation argument is invalid.

Your decryption argument is also invalid. People fail at decryption sometimes, therefore there will be no meaningful communication in 300 years? Just because an individual might fail does not mean that multiple societies of people will fail for 300 years straight.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Please give me any canon reference that everyone on Rifts Earth who can use a radio is in the habit of shooting all strangers on sight.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So they could see the demons, deevils, monsters, vampires, zombies, etc...

...and the humans fighting them.


Are they human though? And if they are are they enslaved, possessed or willing servants?

You're going pretty deep into conspiracy theory territory here. Sure, there are people and groups who think like that, but if you want to buy into MiO, you have to say that essentially everyone thinks like that.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Which is one reason why the setting needs an update. Who or what has been trying to get into orbit that the Orbitals need to keep shooting down? If no one has been trying do they still need to reinforce the fields of killer satellites?

I also have no idea if the Splugorth are involved or not but it makes sense. Send up a raiding party every now and then and the Orbitals freak out and start pumping out killer satellites. Humans remain divided. Job done.


Now that would be an interesting adjustment that makes a lot more sense. The Splugorth could simply be manipulating things to keep the two sides apart. How they do this would be an interesting challenge, but it's much more plausible than the setting as written in MiO.

The fact that you have to alter the orbital setting to make it internally consistent with the rest of the setting tells me that there's something wrong with the orbital setting.


Thing is the setting does seem internally consistent to me. The Rifts happen. Everyone takes damage. Communications are lost. Eventually they give up trying and concentrate on themselves. I haven't seen anything that changed that. My suggestion of the Splugorth or other group being involved, is a way to update and integrate ground and space but it'd also help explain why the orbitals keep deploying killer satellites. Something's got to be coming up to cause the orbitals problems or they'd of stopped deploying the killer satellites.

I guess we have radically different standards when it comes to internal consistency.

As for why they keep maintaining the blockade despite no-one coming up, I've got nothin'. If I were in their shoes and genuinely thought that Earth was nothing but a threat to me, I'd paste it with an asteroid and have done with it.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'd have to agree to disagree on the first part because I think it does make sense. I don't care for the dual setting either. I do think there could be similar settings for Rifts and AFTB but their both being in one book hurts. Write each separately and have conversion notes. It is true that it's been isolated. Which is a bummer. It's also a bummer you can't enjoy it. :( I hope you can one day. :)


I'm glad you can enjoy the premise of Mutants in Orbit as presented. For me, there are too many immersion-breaking issues to make it work. While it's certainly possible to change the orbital setting to work better (see or read The Expanse for a great outer space setting), Mutants in Orbit fails at too much to be worth the effort of making it work as written. In any case, the rest of the Rifts setting is more than enough for me.

You seem to argue from the conclusion that MiO makes sense and assume that people in orbit and on Earth are, without exception, willfully ignorant xenophobes who shoot at anything and anyone new. That's not consistent with the setting I see presented in the rest of the Rifts books. I'll grant you that the premise of total isolation could make sense if you altered the setting such that some great power or intelligence is actively keeping them divided. You favor having the Splugorth manipulate the situation to isolate both communities from each other, which could work. I prefer to have a man-made machine intelligence like ARCHIE isolating Earth. Either works better than what I see in MiO.




Sambot wrote:
Why would I read someone else's version of a space setting?

Because The Expanse is the best space-fiction setting I've ever read or watched. It gets the physics right, the factions and characters are all well-developed, understandable, and compelling, the writing is top-notch, and the production value of the show is fantastic. It's also free to watch if you have Amazon Prime.

Sambot wrote:
I don't know about willingly ignorant but a good many of them are xenophobic who do shoot anything and anyone new. The isolation and lack on communication has always made sense to me. Why it continues, I don't know.

That last sentence is something we definitely agree on.

Sambot wrote:
My question is what causes the orbitals to keep deploying killer satellites? I don't know why they do but somethings got to bother them. To me the Splugorth using one of their slave races to launch raids to keep Earth divided makes sense but it could be something else. Maybe its ARCHIE3 but I would think he'd be more interested in exploring space than cutting it off. I really have no idea. It's one thing I hope will be answered in a new book about Rifts Space.


I guess the Archon's in South America may motivate them to step up their game; that's a genuine threat that's space-capable and gave them a helluva fight when they came down.

You'd like an update; I'd like a total retcon. Absent either, I'll keep my Rifts focus inside the atmosphere.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:19 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
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Sambot wrote:
guardiandashi wrote:
the reality of radio is obviously something you don't seem to understand,
the names of the 2 main conventional radio actually tell you how the signal is encoded onto the carrier wave.
AM Radio. = Amplitude Modulation IE a base radio wave is generated and a second signal is encoded on it which messes with the amplitude (height) of the wave.
FM Radio is Frequency modulation, IE the second Signal is imposed which modifies the base frequency of the wave.

direct TV and dish, are conflicting competitor services so the fact that they have been made incompatible BY DESIGN is not a valid arguement.


I've never been able to listen to any FM station on an AM radio.

Do you think that people in futuristic settings whose lives depend on their ability to communicate by radio would have no more than your present-day understanding that there are two types of radio stations and a basic AM/FM radio receiver set?

Sambot wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
Radio signals get intercepted all the time, even on accident.
So yes, just from that, people on Earth and in orbit would know of each-other.


Presuming the signals get that far and presuming they can decode them if necessary and presuming they believe them. There's also what HWalsh said which can go for the orbitals as well.


Signals do get that far. That's the whole point of the majority of satellites we have in the sky. It doesn't take a lot of signal strength to go a long, long way when there are no objects in the way. Just about every military worth its salt puts a lot of time, effort, human capital, and money into electronic warfare and signals intelligence. This would be even more important to the Orbitals.


Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another thought for the group. Let's take MiO at face value and assume that the Orbitals have truly turned their backs on Earth and decided that there is no possibility of ever retaking the planet for humanity. Why would they go to such extreme lengths to maintain the killer satellite network, the counter-orbit debris field, and a general blockade of the planet when they could simply push a few asteroids into a collision with Earth at dinosaur-killing velocity?

Wham. Unstoppable and far more devastating than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever made.

That would be a quicker, easier, less expensive, and permanent solution to their problem.


Why continue to produce killer satellites has been my questions. As for dropping an asteroid it's probably too much effort with too much risk. It would take a lot of resources to move the asteroid to crash into Earth. Resources that would probably be better used to mine the asteroid. Plus I don't think they'd want to get hit from any debris thrown up from the impact.

Plus it would bring the Splugorth and any other space faring groups into things. There may only be 6 dragon dreadnaughts but they do have other resources plus they could always bring more in through a rift. There's also the Arkons. I don't think they'd stand for it either and it took all the orbitals to fight them off. The Orbitals couldn't fight off both groups. And there's the Naruni. And probably others. Right now, maintaining the killer satellite network is enough. It picks off the wasps that come up. Why go smacking the nest and creating an angry swarm?

Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:07 pm
  

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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
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Hotrod wrote:
Why continue to produce killer satellites has been my questions. As for dropping an asteroid it's probably too much effort with too much risk. It would take a lot of resources to move the asteroid to crash into Earth. Resources that would probably be better used to mine the asteroid. Plus I don't think they'd want to get hit from any debris thrown up from the impact.

Plus it would bring the Splugorth and any other space faring groups into things. There may only be 6 dragon dreadnaughts but they do have other resources plus they could always bring more in through a rift. There's also the Arkons. I don't think they'd stand for it either and it took all the orbitals to fight them off. The Orbitals couldn't fight off both groups. And there's the Naruni. And probably others. Right now, maintaining the killer satellite network is enough. It picks off the wasps that come up. Why go smacking the nest and creating an angry swarm?

Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.[/quote]

Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:41 pm
  

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Well this conversation is going literally no where. Any one got anything constructive to add?

_________________
Balabanto wrote:
Well, something called The Devastator should Devastate things. 1d6x10 couldn't devastate your mother in Rifts.

amodernheathen wrote:
If, in one posting, I can increase the hellish chaos of even a single planet seven-fold, then I believe that I have done my duty as a Game Master to the widows and orphans of that world. By increasing their number. Drastically.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:26 pm
  

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
Well this conversation is going literally no where. Any one got anything constructive to add?


i dunno, is there anything about space that makes it worth wanting to fiddle with for the folks on rifts earth? seems like they all have enough to deal with right now without having to get into a space race that might end with "space is too littered with high velocity trash to hold satellites." not like there isn't plenty of the planet to explore at this point, really.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:20 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
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Emerald MoonSilver wrote:
With naruni and the sploogies there I'm surprised the CCW or the warlock worlds don't have a presense their to monitor rifts earth.



The Naruni might since they had a presence on Earth. I don't know why the CCW would though unless they were rifted there.



Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I hope HAM radios are still in use but I don't know if they would be as I've witnessed their declining use. And yes, while radios are still in use that doesn't mean they're always compatible. Analog and Digital don't always mix.

Radio technology is not space travel. It requires orders of magnitude less complexity, no volatile chemicals, no controlled explosions, and no major infrastructure.


True but it still takes some infrastructure.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I didn't say they were idiots but seeing a "human" community and knowing a human community are different things. How do they know those humans aren't enslaved or possessed? Are they even human? Looks can be deceiving. They could be aliens or demons that look very similar. Atlanteans, Lemurians, Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Dragons, Changlings, Were Creatures, etc.


They're not idiots, they're just tin-foil-hat-level conspiracy theorists who assume, without evidence, that everything down below is a monster or minion thereof?

Not a great argument.


Considering things that come out of the rifts keep trying to kill, enslave or possess them I wouldn't say they're without evidence.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:


With some exceptions, the languages spoken in orbit are little different from those spoken on Earth. There are a great many barriers between Earth and orbit in MiO, but language is not one of them.


Written or spoken? There may be little difference in a written language but accents can change everything. What can sound perfectly normal in one region can be unintelligible in another.

Quote:
Communications on Earth have very limited range, but that's mostly due to the Earth itself. When you can put radio signals out in space, the range goes way, way up. Weather has very little effect on radio waves; I've used very low-power handheld devices to communicate with satellites in hailstorms with no signal degradation.


That's good. I've lost signal because the wind changed direction or a cloud flew over.


Quote:
Again, you're arguing from a conclusion here. The Orbitals shoot everyone coming up because they see Earth as a threat. They will ignore all communications that would indicate otherwise because they see Earth as a threat. Even with the signals that they do get, decode, and view, when they see humans talking on these signals they will just ignore them, because those humans are just aliens wearing human skin suits, because Earth is a threat.

Your position requires almost all Orbitals to hold onto beliefs despite massive evidence to the contrary. I could accept this if they were portrayed as religious fanatics or suffering from some kind of collective insanity, but that's not what MiO presents.


I don't know if all Orbitals hold onto those beliefs. I do think most do. The killer satellites exist for a reason. Because things from Earth keep coming up to kill them. Otherwise why are they there? Giggles?




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Again, I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I also wouldn't say that those organizations and people know about them. They might have records of them but that doesn't mean anyone's looked at said records other then Erin Tarn. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that they know they exist. After all communications were lost. If they believe them to be lost, why would they try to communicate with them?

Triax and the C.S. have both attempted to get to orbit. I find it incredulous that they wouldn't make some effort to find out what used to be up there either while they prepare such an effort or after their efforts failed. Such launches would be large-scale investments.


You said it yourself. "Such launches would be large-scale investments." They're also quite busy fighting for survival. Both the CS and Triax tried many times and failed. They've since given up and have focused on closer concerns. And if they could see the Space Stations, they'd be able to see the satellites shooting down their spacecraft. Since they don't know what causes their destruction I'd guess they can't.


Quote:
The suggestion that only Erin Tarn has ever looked at records of the Orbitals isn't credible. The fact that she's written about what used to be in widely-distributed books tells me that a great many people would be aware that the Orbitals at least used to exist.


I'm sure others have but they don't matter or we'd of heard about them. Could be an adventure hook for a game though. I'm also not sure that the numbers would be that great. How many recognized the Coalitions SAMAS PA were pre-rifts designs? Also how many books survived and how many can read them? Even if they could how many would believe it?

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Probably. Then again, would that many privates report the same thing? Or after watching private 199 be carted off, would private number 200 when asked reply, "Nothing to report, Sir! All quiet here."? And yes those groups are reaching out and forming partnerships. They can also see and verify that they're speaking with other humans. That's kind of hard to do without actually meeting. Which the orbitals and grounders aren't able to do. Do those other groups even know the orbital stations still exist? How busy are they with issues on the planet around them to look to the stars?


Privates would report the same thing because the same thing would be happening, and they wouldn't get carted off; they'd just hand the radio to their sergeants and let them hear for themselves.

You're missing the point about face-to-face meetings between humans on Earth and in orbit. Such meetings are impossible because the Orbitals themselves have made them so, and have made them so as a result of illogical and pointlessly self-destructive motives.


And the Sergeant wouldn't hear anything because he knows his job is on the line. He's say, "I didn't hear anything and neither did you, Private."
"Yes, Sergeant!"

They've made them so because no one who tried to go to Earth ever came back. They made them so because things from Earth keep trying to kill them. Again, there is a reason why the Killer Satellite Network exists.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Even if they were looking, and trying to communicate with each other, that doesn't mean they can verify they're who they say they are. So ARCHIE 3 has a satellite. What kind is it? Where's it aimed? Would ARCHIE let anyone use it?


Your argument is that humans operate on the principle of "I cannot verify that you are who you say you are with a face-to-face meeting, so I won't talk to you." Yet the internet exists, and we are having this conversation. Your argument is invalid.


I don't think either of us has had a demon or some other monster come out of a rift and try to eat, enslave, or possess us either. So we can be reasonably sure that the person on the other end of the message is a human. At least I'm pretty sure I'm human. Would I know if I were possessed or under someone's mind control powers?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And their being so far apart is a reason not to trust each other.

Languages presented in MiO are mostly the same as on Rifts Earth, so your translation argument is invalid.

Your decryption argument is also invalid. People fail at decryption sometimes, therefore there will be no meaningful communication in 300 years? Just because an individual might fail does not mean that multiple societies of people will fail for 300 years straight.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Please give me any canon reference that everyone on Rifts Earth who can use a radio is in the habit of shooting all strangers on sight.


Languages drift and accents develop which could hamper communications.

Scientists have struggled to understand languages for ages. Why should it be different in the future?

From Heros of Humanity pages 149-150. The underlined is mine.
Quote:
Those who have visited the city-state
of Northern Gun have an idea of what this is like, but Coalition
defenses and patrols border on the paranoid, and intruders are
met with immediate and unrelenting deadly force. As a rule, CS
city defenders shoot first and don't worry about asking questions
later.
If the people gunned down were innocent and happened to
have wandered into the no man's zone by accident, it is of little
consequence to the city defenders. Anyone in the defensive zone
is considered a threat and liability that is neutralized with extreme
prejudice. Again, it is that better safe than sorry policy.
This may
all sound ruthless and cold-hearted, but it has kept Coalition cities
and their citizens safe for decades.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Are they human though? And if they are are they enslaved, possessed or willing servants?

You're going pretty deep into conspiracy theory territory here. Sure, there are people and groups who think like that, but if you want to buy into MiO, you have to say that essentially everyone thinks like that.


Not really. Again Killer Satellites. Better to kill everything leaving Earth than be sorry.

Mutants in Orbit page 61
Quote:
Note: The enemy includes anything alien, monstrous, and
supernatural, including vehicles, missiles, satellites, bots, and people
from the Coalition States and Triax, and even humans originating from
Earth.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Thing is the setting does seem internally consistent to me. The Rifts happen. Everyone takes damage. Communications are lost. Eventually they give up trying and concentrate on themselves. I haven't seen anything that changed that. My suggestion of the Splugorth or other group being involved, is a way to update and integrate ground and space but it'd also help explain why the orbitals keep deploying killer satellites. Something's got to be coming up to cause the orbitals problems or they'd of stopped deploying the killer satellites.

I guess we have radically different standards when it comes to internal consistency.

As for why they keep maintaining the blockade despite no-one coming up, I've got nothin'. If I were in their shoes and genuinely thought that Earth was nothing but a threat to me, I'd paste it with an asteroid and have done with it.


I guess so and Mutants in Orbit says why they they started the blockade. Maybe an updated book would tell us why they keep maintaining it.

I wouldn't drop an asteroid though. It'd be too much trouble.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why would I read someone else's version of a space setting?

Because The Expanse is the best space-fiction setting I've ever read or watched. It gets the physics right, the factions and characters are all well-developed, understandable, and compelling, the writing is top-notch, and the production value of the show is fantastic. It's also free to watch if you have Amazon Prime.


I've never heard of it and I don't have Amazon Prime. :(



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't know about willingly ignorant but a good many of them are xenophobic who do shoot anything and anyone new. The isolation and lack on communication has always made sense to me. Why it continues, I don't know.

That last sentence is something we definitely agree on.


Yay! :-D


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
My question is what causes the orbitals to keep deploying killer satellites? I don't know why they do but somethings got to bother them. To me the Splugorth using one of their slave races to launch raids to keep Earth divided makes sense but it could be something else. Maybe its ARCHIE3 but I would think he'd be more interested in exploring space than cutting it off. I really have no idea. It's one thing I hope will be answered in a new book about Rifts Space.


I guess the Archon's in South America may motivate them to step up their game; that's a genuine threat that's space-capable and gave them a helluva fight when they came down.

You'd like an update; I'd like a total retcon. Absent either, I'll keep my Rifts focus inside the atmosphere.


Exactly :) There's all kinds of reasons for the Orbitals to want to continue to keep space cut off from Earth. We just don't know what they are other than the old fears.

An update would probably include some revision. Even if it isn't I'd be happy with another Rifts Space book. And maybe it would include a breakthrough in communications. Maybe some small division of the CS or Triax is willing to try to get into space again?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:50 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
I've never been able to listen to any FM station on an AM radio.

Do you think that people in futuristic settings whose lives depend on their ability to communicate by radio would have no more than your present-day understanding that there are two types of radio stations and a basic AM/FM radio receiver set?


The radio in my truck is AM only. I also have radios that are FM only. So how would either of them listen to the other or Short Wave or some other band?

And sure they would. Maybe. What are they broadcasting? Analog? Digital? Some thing else? Just because a signal is broadcast doesn't mean it can be listened to.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Presuming the signals get that far and presuming they can decode them if necessary and presuming they believe them. There's also what HWalsh said which can go for the orbitals as well.


Signals do get that far. That's the whole point of the majority of satellites we have in the sky. It doesn't take a lot of signal strength to go a long, long way when there are no objects in the way. Just about every military worth its salt puts a lot of time, effort, human capital, and money into electronic warfare and signals intelligence. This would be even more important to the Orbitals.


And yet satellites are there to extend the range of a signal. The Military and other agencies also do their best to make sure other's can't listen in and understand what they're saying. And yes trying to listen in to others. Doesn't mean they can. Especially if technology isn't compatible.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Plus it would bring the Splugorth and any other space faring groups into things. There may only be 6 dragon dreadnaughts but they do have other resources plus they could always bring more in through a rift. There's also the Arkons. I don't think they'd stand for it either and it took all the orbitals to fight them off. The Orbitals couldn't fight off both groups. And there's the Naruni. And probably others. Right now, maintaining the killer satellite network is enough. It picks off the wasps that come up. Why go smacking the nest and creating an angry swarm?

Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


How much fuel would be needed to send an extinction sized asteroid earth's way? How big an engine? How many ships would be needed to deliver all that? And if the stations can be seen why wouldn't the asteroid?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:55 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Orin J. wrote:
Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
Well this conversation is going literally no where. Any one got anything constructive to add?


i dunno, is there anything about space that makes it worth wanting to fiddle with for the folks on rifts earth? seems like they all have enough to deal with right now without having to get into a space race that might end with "space is too littered with high velocity trash to hold satellites." not like there isn't plenty of the planet to explore at this point, really.


To see what's there? Uncover any lost technology? Gain allies if there's any to be found? Faster trips around the world? Satellite views of your enemies. There's all kinds of reasons for going into space. That there's so much going on right now would be why no one is trying to get there right now. At least no one we know of. Doesn't mean that there isn't one. We just don't know of it.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:07 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.


You'll have to effectively do all of that to mine asteroids for minerals, plus you have to add in braking burns to get to where the Orbitals are building their satellites, plus all the refining and manufacturing, plus accellerating away the satellites from the manufacturing site, and then braking burns to put them into orbit.

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