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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:07 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
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Hotrod wrote:
How else are we supposed to call for help?


How does getting to the radio help when you just turned everyone else into lunch? Presuming of course you could even get to the radio?


How about getting on the roof and trying hand signals, waving, mirrors, lights, torches, flags, clothing, pillow sheets, etc? Writing out messages on the roof with anything you can? Seeing if the building your in has any working communications? There's all kinds of things one can do without exposing yourself and others needlessly to danger.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:43 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's presuming they are looking down. Most though have put the Earth behind them and those there now, have no loyalty to Earth at all. Space is their home. Not Earth. If they are looking, they're going to see an Earth, that is not the Earth of their ancestors. Most maps are useless. There's no nations they recognize. Why should they believe there are friendlies down there?

I'm glad you have an optimistic opinion of humanity and there are some who'd share your opinion. Most don't but Outcast station is more tolerant.

That's a burden of proof fallacy. Friendlies existed before the Coming of the Rifts, and MiO's Orbitals believe that none exist today, but MiO presents no good argument or evidence to explain this conclusion. Sure, you can invent some (and you've been busy doing so in this discussion), but the book itself fails to do so. It would be like RUE presenting the current policies of the Coalition with zero explanation or context explaining why they do what they do and how they got to where they are.


:shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.


The Orbitals assumed that there are no friendlies down below when it's obvious that there are people down below and they have made no effort whatsoever to determine if those people are friendly or hostile.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't need to invent anything. It's in the book page 61. It says right there why the killer satellites were there and are maintained. If there was nothing coming up why would killer satellites need to be replaced?

p61 is insufficient, and your logic is circular. They need killer satellites because the book says so, and the book says so because they need killer satellites.

Let's consider this from another perspective. We have the stats for killer satellites and some presumption that stuff occasionally tries to come up the well. Ok. What tries to come up the well? Could the player characters get involved in helping the Orbitals? How do we put on such a fight when all we have to play with is the killer satellites and some spaceship creation rules? MiO only models this from the perspective of the people trying to get into orbit, not from the perspective of the Orbitals.


Good grief. It's like Holly telling Dave, everybody'd dead. They're all dead. Details are nice but the lack of them doesn't change the fact that they're all dead. MiO says why. That it's not detailed enough doesn't make it less valid.

Now you want suggestions for what comes up? :shock: I don't know what's there. I've made suggestions. Maybe aliens. Maybe just killer satellites. Maybe just space debris. Maybe all of the above? Maybe a CCW quarantine fleet? Maybe TPTB left that open for the GM to decide?

They PCs are where? If they're on Earth, how do they know about Orbitals and whether or not they're still up there? Why would they want to go? How would they get there? If they somehow gain the means to get into orbit, do they have the means to fight past whatever keeps people from orbit? If they some how manage to do all that and get into space, will they even be able to communicate with most of the stations without being fired on? Most see everything on earth as an enemy. And just how would they help anyway?

Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


How do the Orbitals reconcile their conclusion that everyone below is dead with city lights in plain sight below, radio traffic that includes unencrypted human voices speaking human languages, and active man-made structures and vehicles one can easily see from orbit? MiO doesn't even try to address this, and that is a major failing of the book. I acknowledge that it's possible to add material and explanations to make the scenario less implausible, but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a fundamental flaw in MiO as a Rifts setting.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
It's exactly as I said,
Quote:
There's radios and there's radios.
. Not every radio can pick up signals transmitted by other radios. Just like not every computer can use media or programs from another computer. For all we know the Orbitals are Apple and the CS is Windows.

You seem to have trouble accepting that people of Rifts Earth and Orbitals, who have future tech and would depend on radios far more than you do, would far exceed your own equipment capabilities and knowledge.


You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.


Most energy weapons on Rifts Earth accept a common type of E-clip. Sure, there are exceptions, but that was a standard established back in the Golden Age that people have stuck with. 25 years ago, there were no common cable types to speak of, and now we have USBs and universal adapters. Computers and technology in general trends toward compatibility as time goes on, and Golden Age tech is pretty interoperable in general. In terms of radio, there are international standards that people follow even when they're not legally required to in foreign countries, because that makes the radio communications gear they sell better able to communicate. Morse Code hasn't changed and still exists in Rifts Earth (and is part of the Radio: Basic skill). There are common frequency bands and standards that people use all over the world today.

Much of that Golden Age tech is still around, in use, and still in production, both on Earth and in orbit. Radios in Rifts have ranges, but they don't have compatibility rules, which suggests to me that humanity worked out some common standards during the Golden Age and stuck with them through the dark ages. Suggesting that radios made during or based on those made during the Golden Age would be incompatible would require inventing new content and modifying the setting.


Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Not really as you're lumping three different groups into one. How many people are in the CS's educated elite? How many are in are in the uneducated masses in CS? How many people are outside the CS and out of that number, how many have heard of her? Just in North America? How about the rest of the world?

That's a quote from the book, not my own invention. If you want more information, read the rest of the description in CWC.


I didn't say it wasn't a quote from a book. In fact here's what is right in front of your quite.
Quote:
A recent (secret) survey conducted by the CS propaganda machine headed by Joseph Prosek II, showed that within the Coalition States 96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings, although only 3% admitted to having personally seen one of her books.


That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.

Again, you're ignoring context. The next sentence states why only 3% admit to this; it'd be like being North Korean and admitting to watching Captain America.

If you saw a study that claimed "only 3% of high school boys publicly admit to having masturbated," would you interpret that to mean 97% of those boys truthfully hadn't?


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not saying communication will be impossible, although accents and slang can make it seem so but it may not be that easy either. For example, what do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

We agree. There would be lingual shifts, and those shifts would not make communication impossible.

This invalidates your original argument that they wouldn't be able to understand each other.


At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

Sure! I've lived in Spain, England, and Iraq. It takes a little longer to work out what people with thick accents are saying, but it's doable.

"Put the hammer down" is an expression meaning to drive as fast as possible. Or it can mean to take the hammer in your hand and set it down. Kind of hard to figure out which you mean without some context.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't know. What does self preservation make a people?

You call it self-preservation, I call it mass murder and a crime against humanity.


So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?

Nothin in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has killed or enslaved anyone in orbit.
Nothing in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has destroyed anything in orbit.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why is it that every nation on Earth can take defensive measures but very vulnerable Orbital Colonies can't? Not only is it wrong for them to do so, you condemn them for it. How does that make sense? They live in bubbles in an environment that will kill them. One monster could easily cause massive damage and loss of life and yet you think they should welcome them with open arms? :eek:

With every reply in this conversation, you have either invented or stuck to your invented supporting arguments for MiO, and in your previous reply you couched these terms with a bunch of "maybes." That's an evasive way to argue, and that's what prevaricating means.

The Orbital's homeworld and the rest of humanity still existed and still exists, they can literally see them, there is no reason why they can't communicate, Earth is abundant with air, water, and other resources the Orbitals desperately need, and the killer satellite network as described requires ludicrous amounts of effort and resources.

There's only one human nation in Rifts canon that kills everyone who tries to approach them, and that's the Orbitals. That's not "defensive measures." It's madness. The whole premise is madness. The Orbitals are hurting themselves as much as the planet with this indiscriminate killing and destruction.


I don't think we're looking at the same books. I really don't. I don't have to invent anything. It's in the book! So there aren't enough details for you. So what. The basics are in the book. Yet even when I provide quotes you ignore them. The CS would happily kill every D-Bee, magic user, and sympathizer they could to free Earth of them. They don't not because they don't have the desire but because they lack the means. Until they have the means they'll use their enemies to kill each other. Then when the greater threat is gone the weaker one will be eliminated. It's in the books.

If the people on Earth could see the Orbitals, don't you think they'd see what was destroying their spacecraft? Instead it's still a mystery. As for the Orbitals, they turned their back on Earth 250+ years ago. They're not looking or listening except to make sure the monsters and aliens stay on Earth.

As for resources, you keep saying they should go to Earth, yet they've been fine without Earth for 250+ years. They don't need the Earth. You also don't seem to care that they'd be better off cooperating with each other yet the moon is busy keeping resources from the stations.

You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?

Lots to unpack here.

First, I'm not ignoring your MiO quotes, I'm saying that those quotes don't justify or explain the basics of the setting MiO sets out. You accept them at face value; I don't. You either ignore the plot holes, inconsistencies, and leaps of logic they require or create whatever you need to make them work. I don't.

Second, your point about the C.S. is irrelevant. Even if the C.S. was all-powerful, they wouldn't indiscriminately kill everyone they meet. Debees, yes. Magic users, yes. Political enemies, sure. Not everyone. Only the Orbitals do that.

Your point about people on Earth being able to see the killer satellites is my point as well. You choose to accept this at face value and assume there's some explanation. I don't.

Same with the "Earth has lots of resources" argument against the Orbitals' blockade; you assume that the setting makes sense and handwave any potential issues. I don't.

Finally, according to MiO, the actual survival odds of someone from orbit surviving on Earth for a single day are on the order of 1 in a few million when you do the math. According to MiO, the odds of someone who's been living in microgravity for six months or so surviving their return to Earth are about 50%. This is demonstrably false, but I'll set that aside. There is no need for Orbitals themselves to go to the surface; they can send autonomous or remote-controlled robots down (both are a thing in MiO). The reasons for going down? Resources! Air, water, food, raw materials, et cetera are very simple to acquire on Earth, far more so than in space. Sure, getting back up into Orbit takes some serious delta-V, but that's doable with their level of technology.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How's a satellite supposed to help without means to communicate with that satellite? You need power, which probably needs fuel. Do you contact the satellite or run the can opener?

You're making stuff up to support your position again. Radios are common tech in Rifts. They're built into environmental body armor, power armor, and robots. They're cheap and widely available. They're included in starting equipment for a great many O.C.C.'s. Cultures that can support that kind of tech aren't going to have trouble detecting and communicating with the Orbitals.


You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

There's more out there than hypothermia and starvation that can kill you:
"Timmy died of his injuries weeks before we finally found his body. If only he'd had an EPIRB!"
"If only we could have called that guy on a satellite phone, we could have explained the situation and averted a war!"
"The Edmund Fitzgerald II got caught in a hurricane way out at sea and sank. If only we could see those with a weather satellite!"

I would say that the people whose lives these technologies would save need them to survive.

Sambot wrote:
https://www.livescience.com/33453-iss-astronauts-ham-radio.html
Quote:
As mentioned above, the transceiver on board the ISS is tuned to transmit radio signals at a frequency of 145.80 MHz. "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead," Ransom said. "It'll usually be silent, but every so often you can hear the astronauts talking to somebody."


Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.

Cool link! I especially like the part where it says "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead."

Aside from the fact that MiO includes communications satellites in it, we already addressed the concepts of radio range in free space vs on Earth's surface.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why is it okay for the CS to shoot on sight but not the Orbitals? They're in a much more precarious position. And how many cultures shoot to kill for no reason? Even the Orbitals have a reason.

Your insistence that the CS shoots everyone they meet on sight despite having no evidence or reference to back that up is noted. If that's how you play the C.S., have fun with that.


I never said the CS shoots everyone on site although there is places in the books that says they will. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth and ignore the text in the books? If we're having a failure to communicate how are orbitals and grounders supposed to talk to each other?

And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

I'm glad we agree that the C.S. doesn't shoot everyone else on sight like the Orbitals do. I've pressed this point because there have been several points at which you've seemed to indicate otherwise, such as the bolded text above or your first reply to this thread, when you said:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation.(snip) Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.




Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I didn't say I was critical of the Coalition shooting on sight nor is my post being critical of it. It's an example of the Coalition feelings after such a situation happens. Better to kill one innocent than allow hundreds of citizens to be killed. I don't agree with it. Not even all CS troopers or Orbitals agree with it. A good majority however does.

The Coalition doesn't shoot everyone on sight in canon. The Orbitals do shoot everyone on sight in canon, and any reasonable explanation of why they do this requires arguments and supporting evidence that isn't in MiO.


I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.

I'm happy to reject MiO's precepts and invent my own setting. You're happy to accept MiO's precepts and invent whatever's required to justify it.

If I were to distill our entire discussion down, I would characterize it this way:
Because you have to create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, I think MiO's setting precepts are nonsense.
Because you can create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, you think those setting precepts make sense.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You ran numbers based on common satellites. Not all satellites possible. Those larger vehicles also deploy killer satellites as well as maintain them. So they would be part of the defense network.

Ok, so it takes inventing your own killer satellites to make that killer satellite network make more sense. This falls into your pattern of modifying the setting to justify the setting. Do you often play adventures in MiO? Is this your favorite part of Rifts?


No inventing required. It's there in the books. Examples given are by no means the only ones available. They're examples. Not a complete listing. That doesn't mean I'm changing the setting. Eliminating everything that isn't listed, changes the setting. Ignoring the text because you don't like it or it isn't detailed enough changes the setting.

I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.

If we accept that argument, then MiO provides examples of a bunch of killer satellites but leave out the actual satellites that would have to do 99%+ of the actual shooting. That's like giving C.S. Grunts 12 vibro-knife options but forgetting to mention that they also have laser rifles.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Just because something is based on Golden Age Weaponry does not mean that it will continue to be compatible.

Universal jacks are a thing in Rifts, and information/signal technology trends towards compatibility, not away from it. Your compatibility argument is invalid.


And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.

And universal adapters are a thing. Golden Age tech is pretty standardized in Rifts, as is tech based on it. Your radio compatibility argument requires the introduction of incompatibility issues across the entire setting, not just from ground to orbit. This issue doesn't show up anywhere in canon, so your argument is invalid.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They don't and then they do.

I'll rephrase for you:

Real-life communications satellites don't exist to extend the range of a signal in a straight line. They exist so that we can bounce signals around obstacles, mainly the planet itself. Boosting the straight-line range of a signal is a matter of antennas, electrical power, and electronic amplifiers, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to boost that straight-line range than it is to put a satellite in orbit. Thus satellites boost range along the surface of the Earth because they go around the horizon, but you can send a signal much farther into space without using satellites at all.


In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.

You could put it that way, sure.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
So for all we know, that Satellite can't be used to communicate with the Orbitals? :| That helps how? :-?

That satellite demonstrates that communications to and from space are possible, which leads to the question of why ARCHIE is the only one who has done so.


It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.

It's like saying that more than one person should be able to read a published book.

_________________
Hotrod
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Last edited by Hotrod on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:46 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
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Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
How else are we supposed to call for help?


How does getting to the radio help when you just turned everyone else into lunch? Presuming of course you could even get to the radio?


How about getting on the roof and trying hand signals, waving, mirrors, lights, torches, flags, clothing, pillow sheets, etc? Writing out messages on the roof with anything you can? Seeing if the building your in has any working communications? There's all kinds of things one can do without exposing yourself and others needlessly to danger.


Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.

_________________
Hotrod
Bizantium and the Northern Isles, p65 map
Arenas of Atlantis, Rifter 69
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:10 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:36 am
Posts: 1193
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:15 pm
  

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Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
HWalsh wrote:
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.

I'll do you one better and summarize!

The fundamental issue as I see it:
I dislike and reject the basic precepts of MiO, since I'd have to make up additional content to justify it.
Sambot likes and accepts the basic precepts of MiO, and he has no issue making up additional content to justify it.


Subtopics:
Human nature: I think it's unreasonable for the Orbitals to turn their back on their homeworld and species. Sambot disagrees.
Rules of Engagement: I think MiO doesn't present enough to justify the Orbitals indiscriminately killing everyone coming up the well. Sambot accepts MiO's rationale.
Observation: I think that the Orbitals would know of human societies on the surface and vice-versa through cursory observation and deliberate study with optics and radios. Sambot accepts MiO's assertion that neither knows anything about the other.
Communication: I think that the Orbitals could and would pick up radio signals and communicate with folks on the surface, and vice-versa. Sambot doesn't think they could or would.

While we've made some progress in sorting out some underlying facts, we've had no shift in either of our positions on the fundamental issue or the subtopics.

_________________
Hotrod
Bizantium and the Northern Isles, p65 map
Arenas of Atlantis, Rifter 69
Check out my maps here!
Also, check out my Instant NPC Generators!
Like what you see? There's more on my Patreon Page.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:57 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
:shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.


The Orbitals assumed that there are no friendlies down below when it's obvious that there are people down below and they have made no effort whatsoever to determine if those people are friendly or hostile.


Some how I don't think we're reading the same book. We're certainly not reading the same things.

This is what they saw when the Rifts erupted.
Quote:
From their distant vantage point, it was obvious that the Earth was tearing itself apart. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive storms, and the eruptions of blue energy tore across the planet; no place was left unscathed. Many believed these terrifying events to be the end of the world.


This was the situation after a year.
Quote:
Probes sent to Earth showed a planet still in the throes of upheaval. Tremendous storms and earthquakes still rocked the land. Strange energy readings, radiation and scores of anomalies were noted everywhere. Even the space-time continuum seemed to be torn apart. The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none. Some elected to try and perished.


No where does it say that they saw survivors but even if they had there was no way to help them. Those that went to earth died. It's right there in print.
Quote:
Finally, they came to grips with their situation. If Earth was denied them, so be it, their new life was to be among the stars.
Earth is gone. History. There's no going back. The only thing to do is move forward.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


How do the Orbitals reconcile their conclusion that everyone below is dead with city lights in plain sight below, radio traffic that includes unencrypted human voices speaking human languages, and active man-made structures and vehicles one can easily see from orbit? MiO doesn't even try to address this, and that is a major failing of the book. I acknowledge that it's possible to add material and explanations to make the scenario less implausible, but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a fundamental flaw in MiO as a Rifts setting.


This is the Earth from 10,000 miles. Where are the lights, and man made structures?
https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/eart ... 0000-miles
The nearest Space Station is 100,000 miles and the sky is full of ash, energy lines, storms, etc. What lights are they supposed to be able to see? What signals are they supposed to hear?

The biggest flaw, MiO has is that it doesn't have enough details for you. But that's on you.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.


Most energy weapons on Rifts Earth accept a common type of E-clip. Sure, there are exceptions, but that was a standard established back in the Golden Age that people have stuck with. 25 years ago, there were no common cable types to speak of, and now we have USBs and universal adapters. Computers and technology in general trends toward compatibility as time goes on, and Golden Age tech is pretty interoperable in general. In terms of radio, there are international standards that people follow even when they're not legally required to in foreign countries, because that makes the radio communications gear they sell better able to communicate. Morse Code hasn't changed and still exists in Rifts Earth (and is part of the Radio: Basic skill). There are common frequency bands and standards that people use all over the world today.


As you said there's exceptions. And you've got 3 different types of USB connections. That I know of. If you don't have an adapter they won't work. And yes there's some commonality and bands and so on. That doesn't mean an AM radio will pick up FM signals. It doesn't mean they'll reach zillions of miles or they'd be talking over each other and no one would be able to tell what was being said.


Quote:
Much of that Golden Age tech is still around, in use, and still in production, both on Earth and in orbit. Radios in Rifts have ranges, but they don't have compatibility rules, which suggests to me that humanity worked out some common standards during the Golden Age and stuck with them through the dark ages. Suggesting that radios made during or based on those made during the Golden Age would be incompatible would require inventing new content and modifying the setting.


That doesn't mean it hasn't changed. You also don't need compatibility rules to know you can't get FM with an AM radio. I don't have to invent anything for that to remain true. And there are rules for different/alien technology.

I also don't have to invent anything to know that technology gets abandoned. There's only 1 mention of videotape in Rifts Unlimited Ed and they're in a library. Audio Tapes were likewise mentioned once in the Machine Ghost ability. Everything else is disk. Audiodisks can have how many different types of audio files? Files that aren't always compatible with every player? Videodisks? LD, VCD, SVCD, DVD, HD-DVD, Blue Ray, and all kinds of other video files that can be put on disk but not played on all players. Plus there's regional encoding so they can only be played in certain regions. And ever try to play a video and not have the right codec? Don't tell me things are 100% compatible because they're not.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.

Again, you're ignoring context. The next sentence states why only 3% admit to this; it'd be like being North Korean and admitting to watching Captain America.

If you saw a study that claimed "only 3% of high school boys publicly admit to having masturbated," would you interpret that to mean 97% of those boys truthfully hadn't?


No you're ignoring the context.
Quote:
In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn's books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities
are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories


Those are the estimated numbers of those believed to have read her books or have been read too. Three numbers for three different groups. You're lumping different groups. You want all the population?
Quote:
96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings.
Quote:
100% of all Coalition citizens know of and recognize Emperor Karl Prosek,

Please note "knew about" and "know of and recognize" are different things.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

Sure! I've lived in Spain, England, and Iraq. It takes a little longer to work out what people with thick accents are saying, but it's doable.

"Put the hammer down" is an expression meaning to drive as fast as possible. Or it can mean to take the hammer in your hand and set it down. Kind of hard to figure out which you mean without some context.


Must have been interesting, and hot being there. And you recognize that it can be difficult to understand someone even if they're speaking the same language.

And thank you. I meant speed up. Literally putting the hammer down is another answer. So is lowering the hammer of a gun. There's probably more. Context would help but not always. Words have different meanings and that could lead to a misunderstanding can lead to blows. When you take language drift, slang, different meanings, accents, second language, etc it'd be easy to miss communicate.

I'm not saying its impossible. I'm not saying it'd totally easy. I am saying that there will be differences. It's also probably vary from person to person.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?

Nothin in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has killed or enslaved anyone in orbit.
Nothing in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has destroyed anything in orbit.


And yet killer satellites exist for a reason. Do we really need a list of victims?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?

Lots to unpack here.

First, I'm not ignoring your MiO quotes, I'm saying that those quotes don't justify or explain the basics of the setting MiO sets out. You accept them at face value; I don't. You either ignore the plot holes, inconsistencies, and leaps of logic they require or create whatever you need to make them work. I don't.


I don't need the level of detail that you seem to.


Quote:
Second, your point about the C.S. is irrelevant. Even if the C.S. was all-powerful, they wouldn't indiscriminately kill everyone they meet. Debees, yes. Magic users, yes. Political enemies, sure. Not everyone. Only the Orbitals do that.


You're ignoring where it says they would do just that.

Quote:
Your point about people on Earth being able to see the killer satellites is my point as well. You choose to accept this at face value and assume there's some explanation. I don't.


I take it to mean that those with telescopes have a hard time seeing satellites with all the light from ley lines, aurora borealis, and space debris. After all Rifts Earth is not the Earth we have now. Things aren't going to be the same.

Quote:
Same with the "Earth has lots of resources" argument against the Orbitals' blockade; you assume that the setting makes sense and handwave any potential issues. I don't.

The Bank has lots of money. That doesn't mean I can access it. Handwavium isn't going to change that.


Quote:
Finally, according to MiO, the actual survival odds of someone from orbit surviving on Earth for a single day are on the order of 1 in a few million when you do the math. According to MiO, the odds of someone who's been living in microgravity for six months or so surviving their return to Earth are about 50%. This is demonstrably false, but I'll set that aside. There is no need for Orbitals themselves to go to the surface; they can send autonomous or remote-controlled robots down (both are a thing in MiO). The reasons for going down? Resources! Air, water, food, raw materials, et cetera are very simple to acquire on Earth, far more so than in space. Sure, getting back up into Orbit takes some serious delta-V, but that's doable with their level of technology.


Actually, I think they're being generous at 50%. It is a fact that those in space suffer bone and muscle loss among other problems. I'm going to presume after several hundred years humans adapted so those problems aren't. At least as long as they're in space. They're not going to have a good time on Earth. They'll be even less happy trying to leave it. Just being on Earth is going to be an incredible stress on their bodies. Trying to leave...

https://www.universetoday.com/20338/wei ... 3%20pounds.
Quote:
Your weight on the Moon is 16.5% what you would experience on Earth. In other words, if you weighed 100 kg on Earth, you would weigh a mere 16.5 kg on the Moon. For you imperial folks, imagine you tipped the scales at 200 pounds. Your weight on the Moon would only be 33 pounds.

https://books.google.com/books?id=LqZcS ... DXoECBQQAQ
Quote:
Astronauts experiencing 4g during launch would feel five times heavier due to the


So a Moon Colonist will be more than 6 times heavier on Earth and then that weight increases 5 times getting into orbit. So they'd be 11 times heavier trying to get into space? Why take that risk? And yes, they could try robotics, but are the Orbitals capable of escape velocity? I'm not sure any of the 5 Drive Types available can go that fast. And why go when the resources are there in space?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

There's more out there than hypothermia and starvation that can kill you:
"Timmy died of his injuries weeks before we finally found his body. If only he'd had an EPIRB!"
"If only we could have called that guy on a satellite phone, we could have explained the situation and averted a war!"
"The Edmund Fitzgerald II got caught in a hurricane way out at sea and sank. If only we could see those with a weather satellite!"

I would say that the people whose lives these technologies would save need them to survive.


And if Columbus had GPS he wouldn't have gotten lost and found the "New World"
All that presumes there are satellites. Most of the satellites that Earth could talk to were destroyed. Out of those that were left it'd be surprising if there were a lot still functioning. ARCHIE 3's managed to use one satellite. Yet it seems like you think everyone should have satellite communications. That skill isn't even offered in Rifts.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.

Cool link! I especially like the part where it says "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead."

Aside from the fact that MiO includes communications satellites in it, we already addressed the concepts of radio range in free space vs on Earth's surface.


Thanks. You will not that you'd need a radio that can receive those frequencies. Not every radio is. You'll also note that the time was also limited to 10 minuets and that they only tried 45 times a year. Probably more by appointment. That really narrows down those that can hear those in space to those that get lucky or have an appointment.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

I'm glad we agree that the C.S. doesn't shoot everyone else on sight like the Orbitals do. I've pressed this point because there have been several points at which you've seemed to indicate otherwise, such as the bolded text above or your first reply to this thread, when you said:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation.(snip) Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.


It is the CS policy to shoot first. They've temporarily set that aside as they're in a war and very stretched. Before then it was individual troopers who decided not to shoot. And if they had a "shoot first" person in their mist, especially above them in rank, they could be in trouble.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.

I'm happy to reject MiO's precepts and invent my own setting. You're happy to accept MiO's precepts and invent whatever's required to justify it.

If I were to distill our entire discussion down, I would characterize it this way:
Because you have to create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, I think MiO's setting precepts are nonsense.
Because you can create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, you think those setting precepts make sense.


I don't have to justify the setting precepts or create stuff. There's enough there to play and that lack of "details" given allows each game to be different. I wouldn't mind some more but I know that the more details there are the more they narrow what I can do in canon.

On the other hand, you have a problem with the lack of details. You've complained about them loud and clear. You also ignore what you don't like. I've shown you the CS policy and why they've suspended it. Yet you've changed the suspension as "always was.". Which is fine for your games. I do the same. But that isn't how it is in canon. For the CS the enemy of my enemy is my enemy. As soon as they are no longer useful, they'll be eliminated.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:

I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.

If we accept that argument, then MiO provides examples of a bunch of killer satellites but leave out the actual satellites that would have to do 99%+ of the actual shooting. That's like giving C.S. Grunts 12 vibro-knife options but forgetting to mention that they also have laser rifles.


Not really. It's more like giving the NGR a navy but no OCCs for it. :-?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.

And universal adapters are a thing. Golden Age tech is pretty standardized in Rifts, as is tech based on it. Your radio compatibility argument requires the introduction of incompatibility issues across the entire setting, not just from ground to orbit. This issue doesn't show up anywhere in canon, so your argument is invalid.


If everyone used the same thing, there wouldn't need to be adapters.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.

You could put it that way, sure.


Thank you.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.

It's like saying that more than one person should be able to read a published book.
[/quote]

:| :| :| :| Are you saying they should share? It would be nice if they did. Not everyone is that nice though.


Hotrod wrote:
Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:12 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


Don't mind me or the heavy smell of napalm. It's just my zombie repellent.

_________________
-------------
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Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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------------


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:23 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
HWalsh wrote:
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


Sorry about that. :( I have been trying to trim it down.

Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
I'll do you one better and summarize!


In other words.

The fundamental issue as I see it: Hotrod wants everything detailed out and isn't happy when things are unknown or vague.
I don't mind filling in the blanks as it gives more options in my games.

Subtopics:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
I think the Orbitals watched their planet tear itself apart, realized there was no going back, and focused on making space their new home.
Rules of Engagement: Hotrod wants more details.
I'm okay with being able to use anything I want.
Observation: Hotrod wants Orbitals to work with those on Earth.
I think at 100,000 plus miles away they're not going to see anything. The picture on page 33 of Rifts Ultimate Editions would seem to bare that out.
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.
I think the Rifts happened, screwed up everything, caused lots of loss of life, knowledge, and technology, major changes in landscape, and unleashed all kinds of terrors. With all that I don't think their party realizes the other still exists.




taalismn wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


Don't mind me or the heavy smell of napalm. It's just my zombie repellent.


LOL :-D


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:10 am
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
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Sambot wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


Sorry about that. :( I have been trying to trim it down.

Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
I'll do you one better and summarize!


In other words.

The fundamental issue as I see it: Hotrod wants everything detailed out and isn't happy when things are unknown or vague.
I don't mind filling in the blanks as it gives more options in my games.

Subtopics:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
I think the Orbitals watched their planet tear itself apart, realized there was no going back, and focused on making space their new home.
Rules of Engagement: Hotrod wants more details.
I'm okay with being able to use anything I want.
Observation: Hotrod wants Orbitals to work with those on Earth.
I think at 100,000 plus miles away they're not going to see anything. The picture on page 33 of Rifts Ultimate Editions would seem to bare that out.
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.
I think the Rifts happened, screwed up everything, caused lots of loss of life, knowledge, and technology, major changes in landscape, and unleashed all kinds of terrors. With all that I don't think their party realizes the other still exists.


I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible and show some respect for where you're coming from with my summary. Your summary is a bunch of strawman arguments smothered with scorn. I had hoped this conversation might go somewhere and we might find some common ground, or at least come to a place of mutual respect for each others' positions. Now I don't see that happening, so I'm done with this conversation.

Have fun with MiO.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:06 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible-


just wanna let you know you failed in that regard, i thought you were taking potshots at them myself.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:47 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible-


just wanna let you know you failed in that regard, i thought you were taking potshots at them myself.

All the more reason for me to walk away then. Seems I failed to do anything constructive here.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:25 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
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Hotrod wrote:

I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible and show some respect for where you're coming from with my summary. Your summary is a bunch of strawman arguments smothered with scorn. I had hoped this conversation might go somewhere and we might find some common ground, or at least come to a place of mutual respect for each others' positions. Now I don't see that happening, so I'm done with this conversation.

Have fun with MiO.


I appreciate that you were trying to e neutral. I was too and I suspect we both failed since it did feel like you were taking pot shots at me. Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral. Plus, you ignore the canon because you don't like it as it goes against your faith in humanity. It doesn't matter what text I provide or even if its a picture. If it goes against what you believe you ignore it. I'm glad you have such faith in humanity. It doesn't change canon though.

I also get that you want more details. I wouldn't mind more myself. Especially, when it comes to availability of OCCs/MOSs and special training. Canon doesn't change though because we want more or don't like what we've got. Of course the nice thing about RPGs is that we don't have to stick with canon. We're free to modify the game as we like. And sometimes, the lack of details even helps in this regard. It still won't change canon, but it doesn't have to.

So have fun with your games and keep believing in humanity cause it needs it.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:48 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been following this for a while. I was planning to just let the thread die but now I'm curious about a couple things.

1: What about Hotrod's post made you (and/or Orin J.) that he was taking pot shots at you? For the most part he stated his stances, and that you disagreed with him. As far as I could tell, his post was more or less accurate. If I missed something, I'm curious as both a learning experience as well as to see if I missed or misunderstood something. If it's simply tone though (as that's something I've seen claimed in general before), then consider tone in text form is generally what we the readers add into it.

Sambot wrote:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
[snip]
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.

On the other hand, from what I've observed, Hotrod has not made either of these claims. So one of us is mistaken (since he said you made a straw man, I don't think it's me), or you intentionally misrepresented his side.

Human Nature: If you think the only options are to land on Earth personally or to never communicate with it again, there are more options than that very binary choice.

Communication: His stance hasn't been that we shouldn't act as if Rifts never happened. But it's been approximately 250 years since. There are places that never lost their Golden Age tech. The Coalition has recovered to about that level. Rifts is, at this point (mentioned by fans and even Kevin), more of a post-post apocalyptic setting at this point. Rifts is also designed to be widely compatible. That's why people can be Rifter from the past and still communicate, find ancient books and videos and understand them, and even Phase World has the equivalent of English/American where you can communicate with minimal difficulty. Phase World still has e-clips and ...

Err ... Sorry, I didn't really come here to argue the points themselves. But I wanted to point out the actual false stance you applied to his arguments. If you feel he did the same, then I'm curious to which parts you felt he got wrong. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am
  

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Prysus wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been following this for a while. I was planning to just let the thread die but now I'm curious about a couple things.

1: What about Hotrod's post made you (and/or Orin J.) that he was taking pot shots at you? For the most part he stated his stances, and that you disagreed with him. As far as I could tell, his post was more or less accurate. If I missed something, I'm curious as both a learning experience as well as to see if I missed or misunderstood something. If it's simply tone though (as that's something I've seen claimed in general before), then consider tone in text form is generally what we the readers add into it.


Hello, Hope you're doing well.

There's been several times where Hotrod has put words in my mouth and completely disregarded canon. For example the CS's policy of shooting. I've stated what it was, even provided quotes and why it's been temporarily suspended. Hotrod refuses to believe this though.

There was also his Satellites do and don't extend range thing. At least we got that sorted.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
[snip]
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.

On the other hand, from what I've observed, Hotrod has not made either of these claims. So one of us is mistaken (since he said you made a straw man, I don't think it's me), or you intentionally misrepresented his side.


I didn't say he did but sure it does feel like that's how he thinks. He certainly seems to believe that there was no reason for the orbitals to turn their back on Earth, even though the book clearly says why. He also constantly insists that they should be able to communicate and that they should even see city lights from space in spite of the evidence to the contrary. Also if there were any communications with Earth, that would have been mentioned. Space wouldn't be a mystery to those on Earth and those in Space would know that there were survivors. That says there was no communications. The picture of Earth from space shows there's no city lights to see.

Quote:
Human Nature: If you think the only options are to land on Earth personally or to never communicate with it again, there are more options than that very binary choice.


The tried non human means. All the probes showed was destruction. Those in Orbit need to see to their own needs. Why waste the resources trying to get them from a hostile area when they could get those resources from space? And that was then. MiO has them on the brink of war with each other. One of the South America books has a Fleet of Aliens attacking before being driven off to Mars so there's that threat. They don't have the resources to go to Earth. Not that sending robots would help their cause any with the people of Earth. Nor would going be good for their own health.


Quote:
Communication: His stance hasn't been that we shouldn't act as if Rifts never happened. But it's been approximately 250 years since. There are places that never lost their Golden Age tech. The Coalition has recovered to about that level. Rifts is, at this point (mentioned by fans and even Kevin), more of a post-post apocalyptic setting at this point. Rifts is also designed to be widely compatible. That's why people can be Rifter from the past and still communicate, find ancient books and videos and understand them, and even Phase World has the equivalent of English/American where you can communicate with minimal difficulty. Phase World still has e-clips and ...


I didn't say he believes Rifts never happened, but it sure seems that way as he ignores the text and art saying the contrary. Also while some things can be very similar, and even descended from a common origin, that doesn't make them the same. I've said many times that there's language drift, slang, accents and such that will make communications more difficult. There's even skills for those things. There's also rules for bringing people from the past or from different tech levels. If things were that easy those rules and skills wouldn't exist. Even the printed word can be difficult to read. And that's for those who are literate. Written can be even more so. I can't even read my own writing half the time. Having to read someone else's words, filled with jargon, and language drift could be even more difficult.

There's also rules for technology and how it's changes. That doesn't mean it can't be figured out. That doesn't mean there won't be someone who can access it. It does mean that not everyone can. Kevin knew technology wouldn't be the same. That's why he provided rules for differences in technology. Think about it. How many people have the equipment to read a 5.25 in floppy? A laserdisc? A Beta Video? 8-Track? 8mm film? A Region 4 DVD? I would guess not many. Can they still be read? Certainly. But your average person isn't going to have the means to do so. You'd have to go to a specialist.


Quote:
Err ... Sorry, I didn't really come here to argue the points themselves. But I wanted to point out the actual false stance you applied to his arguments. If you feel he did the same, then I'm curious to which parts you felt he got wrong. Farewell and safe journeys.


So no. My stance isn't false. He said I do believe something. I said it seems like he does. I've also pointed out where he's ignoring canon because he disagrees with it. I can't say I like it either. I hope mankind would be better than that. But that's canon. Like I've said, we don't have to stick with canon, in our games. We're free to do what we want. But if we're going to discuss the books we can't ignore canon, no matter how detailed it is.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:03 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


Sorry about that. :( I have been trying to trim it down.

Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
I'll do you one better and summarize!


In other words.

The fundamental issue as I see it: Hotrod wants everything detailed out and isn't happy when things are unknown or vague.
I don't mind filling in the blanks as it gives more options in my games.

Subtopics:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
I think the Orbitals watched their planet tear itself apart, realized there was no going back, and focused on making space their new home.
Rules of Engagement: Hotrod wants more details.
I'm okay with being able to use anything I want.
Observation: Hotrod wants Orbitals to work with those on Earth.
I think at 100,000 plus miles away they're not going to see anything. The picture on page 33 of Rifts Ultimate Editions would seem to bare that out.
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.
I think the Rifts happened, screwed up everything, caused lots of loss of life, knowledge, and technology, major changes in landscape, and unleashed all kinds of terrors. With all that I don't think their party realizes the other still exists.




taalismn wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


Don't mind me or the heavy smell of napalm. It's just my zombie repellent.


LOL :-D


Observation: With our current tech telescopes we can see craters less than 2 miles across on the moon. Check it out on Googlemoon. The goldenage tech of the orbitals is probably better than our tech.
Human Nature: If Human nature were like that we'd never have broken the sound barrier or crossed the sea or gotten to the moon or still use the space station
Communication:... would have been lost from interference but would have returned just as it did down on the planet. Besides laser comms have never been noted as being distorted by leylines. The skies of Earth did not change color with the eruption of rifts, the air around rifts and leylines don't shimmer like a heatwave. IIRC RF is noted as getting sketchy around leylines and during the eruption and until the ash cleared from the air laser would likely be, effectively, jammed in most locations but as soon as the leylines subsides and the dust cleared the radios would work as normal. Though they would loose initial communications and the ash is supposed to stay up for several decades the scientists would know this and the effect of ash on communications and trasnsportation. Except those who acted rashly they wouldn't try to go to Earth until the clouds were clear. Some 70 plus years after the leylines erupted would be the first time the rational minds would attempt to go down to Earth. By that time the radio interference and laser com interference would have declined and communications would have started being attempted using the communication devices and codes from the time of the apocalypse. The Ticonderoga and ARCHIE would be able to recieve these. ARCHIE and any scientists on the Ticonderoga would be expecting contact around this time understanding the same principles the scientists on the moon understood. NGR, the Geo Front and any other Pre-Rift groups, that weren't pre-America, who also have people who understand science and technology wouldn't have been expecting communication prior to the ash plume clearing. Basically scientists on both ends with access to GA tech would know when to be expecting communications to be reestablished. Scientists on both ends would know about how long it takes for volcanic ash to settle. Scientists with GA tech on both ends would probably be able to see human-like activity going on.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:05 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
Posts: 2656
Location: Boise, ID (US)
Sambot wrote:
Hello, Hope you're doing well.

Greetings and Salutations. Relatively well. Frustrated with work stuff, but overall good.

Sambot wrote:
There's been several times where Hotrod has put words in my mouth and completely disregarded canon.
[snip]
There was also his Satellites do and don't extend range thing. At least we got that sorted.

I'm going to try and avoid some of the specifics of the debate, as that's not really why I started posting. I really started posting to try and maybe serve as a translator (so to speak). So I'm going to try and stay neutral, but I will note I do have opinions (naturally) and that may show to a degree. I will address certain things you've said and/or done, because I'm talking with you and I think it may help in discussion, but it would feel wrong (in my view) to discuss too much of Hotrod's stuff since he's no longer part of this conversation. So it may feel like I'm taking sides, even though I'm trying not to (hopefully that makes sense).

I think both of you did a fair bit of putting words in the other's mouth, but I think it was (at least to some degree) due to the fact you two seemed to be having slightly different conversations. So, for example, I'll bring up the satellite thing. You often said he claimed it didn't extend the range, but then he claimed that he did. That could, equally, be viewed as putting words in his mouth. For this example, I will go back to the example I provided (as it's easier for me, and I know exactly what I meant and I don't have to guess at someone else's intent). The laser bounces off the ceiling and hits a target on the other side of the wall only 50 feet away. It would be true to say that it did NOT extend the range of the pistol, and that the pistol can shoot much farther than that and the range of the beam was unaffected. One could also argue that it did extend the range, as without the ceiling the pistol couldn't have hit the target. Someone could then argue I'm contradicting myself and I could argue that person is putting words in my mouth. We could argue about the accuracy of each statement, but it becomes pedantic because the focus becomes more on the specific usage of words instead of their intent.

I feel a fair bit of the conversations had been that way. This is why I say I think it was like watching two different conversations. One of you would say one thing and the other would take it in a slightly different way than intended (and I'm not saying either did this intentionally), and then the variance continues to expand.

Sambot wrote:
I didn't say he did but sure it does feel like that's how he thinks. He certainly seems to believe that there was no reason for the orbitals to turn their back on Earth, even though the book clearly says why. He also constantly insists that they should be able to communicate and that they should even see city lights from space in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

I'll start by saying I've never read Mutants in Orbit (MiO), so I can't even try to discuss the specifics. But, from what I've seen in this thread (and others), I think this is the main issue.

Hotrod knows what the book says, but he feels it's stupid because it doesn't make logical sense. So, for example with them knowing each other, my understanding is the book states they have no clue of each other, but doesn't bother to explain why. And because they didn't address this point, it's poorly thought out. So I'll try to give a different example.

Let's say I write a game world. I write a book about the underwater city of Atlantis. In there I claim humans visiting Atlantis can then breathe underwater for 10 minutes and speak without drowning, but I don't explain why. Someone may feel I don't have any clue what I'm talking about. Another may think it's fine, and that I simply meant that humans can hold their breath for 10 minutes, and I didn't mean breath. And someone else can state that humans have been genetically modified to breath underwater for a limited duration. And someone else might think humans developed gills. And then another yet may think that there's something special about the air of Atlantis that fills your lungs and has some special reaction to the water. Even if people can provide logic out of what I wrote, what I wrote was illogical without explanation and was disjointed from reality. For some people (and I'd probably agree) this would make what I did poorly written.

Now I don't actually know if someone on the moon can see city lights (say, from Chicago, as I compared it earlier to population) with just the naked eye. And if someone can prove his ideas of what's possible isn't true based on real world science, I think Hotrod would have been more willing to change his viewpoint. Another reader providing possible explanations/theories won't solve the problem, as it doesn't solve the fact the book (as written) failed to address why reality no longer works as we know it. Often, these kind of details can be explained in a sentence or two, or maybe a paragraph. It doesn't have to provide full detail, but at least the basic premise of why this is now varied.

Sambot wrote:
Prysus wrote:
Human Nature: If you think the only options are to land on Earth personally or to never communicate with it again, there are more options than that very binary choice.


The tried non human means. All the probes showed was destruction. Those in Orbit need to see to their own needs. Why waste the resources trying to get them from a hostile area when they could get those resources from space? And that was then. MiO has them on the brink of war with each other. One of the South America books has a Fleet of Aliens attacking before being driven off to Mars so there's that threat. They don't have the resources to go to Earth. Not that sending robots would help their cause any with the people of Earth. Nor would going be good for their own health.

And, at no point, did I claim they had to go to Earth at all. Again, I haven't read MiO, but I'll provide at least one alternate idea. For this idea, we'll have to take the stance that they can see lights and/or receive communications (because you have to understand the opposing viewpoint believes this is possible).

The Orbitals can attempt to negotiate with (for example) the CS. In exchange for satellite assistance (communication, weather, movement of enemy troops, etc.), the CS will send up a shuttle with supplies. The CS now gets tactical advantage not available to anyone else, and the Orbitals get resources with potentially minimal work. If just one orbital colony did this, they'd get additional resources that the other orbitals don't have, which would give them an advantage if they really are on the brink of war. Heck, the CS could recruit people from the 'Burbs (that the CS doesn't want around anyways), give them the opportunity for a new safe world (in space, and safety is one of the main reasons people are in the 'Burbs in the first place), and send them up as additional troops if needed. And that's just an example, without me knowing too much about the specifics of the setting.

Note: This isn't to state they should or should not do this, simply to point out there's a lot of possibilities beyond "land and die or never communicate with Earth again."

Human nature (to me) varies. For some it will be about continuing to try even if you fail. For others, it may just be about survival (and more resources may be one avenue to aid in survival), in others it's to fight for your home even if you can't ever go back (I mean, think about the various soldier stories of someone expecting to never see their family again, but fighting anyways so others could have a better life).

And I think part of the problem with the human nature of the Orbitals cutting off all contact is that human nature is varied. Think about just this thread. Do you think everyone has the same view points? People joked about Hotrod being the type of person who would run out to get the radio. But why do you think such a trope exists? Is it because all humans act the exact same way? Is it because all humans will do whatever they're ordered to without question? Ultimately I think that's part of the point. Why don't the orbitals have anyone else of a different mindset? Instead, the Orbitals are in 100% in agreement, and that doesn't seem logical (at least to some).

Sambot wrote:
I didn't say he believes Rifts never happened, but it sure seems that way ...

Ehhh ... I can give you the benefit of the doubt you meant "seems" as some distinguished difference, but I'll say I don't think it really comes off that way. Let me give a different example.

I say: "Prysus seems like an idiot who molests children" or "Prysus seems like a racist Nazi who beats his wife." I could try to say that I didn't insult him, and I never made any claims about him, but I'd say most people reading it will view it as an insult (one of the reasons I used my screen name as the example, and not someone else). Think about how you'd feel if someone made those kind of claims about you. Would the word "seems" make everything better? I'll say now, I'd have some strong feelings about those statements regardless of the word "seems" being included.

And yes, I went to more extremes. I don't think what you said is nearly to that level, and I don't want to make it sound like it was. In this case, I felt the extreme would help to illustrate the point: Simply adding "seems" doesn't make any claims magically acceptable.

Sambot wrote:
I've said many times that there's language drift, slang, accents and such that will make communications more difficult.

And I think this is one of those times where I'll go back to the two of you seemingly having different conversations.

From what I could tell, Hotrod was saying communication should be possible.
You brought up language variance and technology as obstacles.
And while I think we can mostly agree it may add some difficulty, it doesn't change that it's possible. So he'll keep arguing how it's possible, and you'll continue to argue it's difficult, and you can't get anywhere because you're not in the same conversation (even though both sides are discussing communicating between the Orbitals and the Earth).

Sambot wrote:
So no. My stance isn't false.

Well, as someone who has been following the conversation, I'd say what you "seem" to think he's been trying to say, is not what he's been saying.

Sambot wrote:
I've also pointed out where he's ignoring canon because he disagrees with it. I can't say I like it either. I hope mankind would be better than that. But that's canon. Like I've said, we don't have to stick with canon, in our games. We're free to do what we want. But if we're going to discuss the books we can't ignore canon, no matter how detailed it is.

From what I gathered, his stance is that he knows what the canon says, and he thinks it doesn't make sense (in a realism way, not that the words themselves elude him).
So if you have to add rationale to canon to justify it, then that doesn't prove that the canon is detailed or makes sense, just that it can make sense if someone puts more time and effort into it than what was printed. Note: I won't blame the original author, as I don't know what was included in the original manuscript and what may have been changed in editing, simply discussing final print.

So, for example, does MiO state in the canon the reason that communication was lost is due to language gaps and different technologies? If not, then this won't solve Hotrod's objections to the canon material. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:46 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Observation: With our current tech telescopes we can see craters less than 2 miles across on the moon. Check it out on Googlemoon. The goldenage tech of the orbitals is probably better than our tech.


Possibly. Even if they were, they'd of been useless after the Rifts. Ash and Ley line light would have rendered them unusable. If they survived the earthquakes and other disasters that were happening. Do we know of any that survived?


Quote:
Human Nature: If Human nature were like that we'd never have broken the sound barrier or crossed the sea or gotten to the moon or still use the space station


There's a difference between doing things that haven't been done that could be deadly, and constantly throwing life away.


Quote:
Communication:... would have been lost from interference but would have returned just as it did down on the planet. Besides laser comms have never been noted as being distorted by leylines. The skies of Earth did not change color with the eruption of rifts, the air around rifts and leylines don't shimmer like a heatwave. IIRC RF is noted as getting sketchy around leylines and during the eruption and until the ash cleared from the air laser would likely be, effectively, jammed in most locations but as soon as the leylines subsides and the dust cleared the radios would work as normal. Though they would loose initial communications and the ash is supposed to stay up for several decades the scientists would know this and the effect of ash on communications and trasnsportation. Except those who acted rashly they wouldn't try to go to Earth until the clouds were clear. Some 70 plus years after the leylines erupted would be the first time the rational minds would attempt to go down to Earth. By that time the radio interference and laser com interference would have declined and communications would have started being attempted using the communication devices and codes from the time of the apocalypse. The Ticonderoga and ARCHIE would be able to recieve these. ARCHIE and any scientists on the Ticonderoga would be expecting contact around this time understanding the same principles the scientists on the moon understood. NGR, the Geo Front and any other Pre-Rift groups, that weren't pre-America, who also have people who understand science and technology wouldn't have been expecting communication prior to the ash plume clearing. Basically scientists on both ends with access to GA tech would know when to be expecting communications to be reestablished. Scientists on both ends would know about how long it takes for volcanic ash to settle. Scientists with GA tech on both ends would probably be able to see human-like activity going on.


How many of these scientists are going to be alive 70 years later? Of those still alive, and their apprentices, how many would be thinking of space, or Earth compared to the more pressing concerns around them? The Ticonderoga - fighting D-Bee monsters in the oceans. The NGR - fighting Gargoyles. Geo-Front - busy with life underground and monsters. Others - fighting D-Bees, Monsters, other humans. ARCHIE-busy creating robots, races of D-Bees and fighting aliens and monsters. And ARCHIE's com range is limited to a 1500 miles without the satellite, and it's aimed at Earth. Those in space also have pressing concerns including a building up to a war among the colonies.

As for Laser Communications, I think you'd have to know where to aim the laser. That means, knowing of the Orbital Colonies and their locations. We haven't seen anything that says anyone on Earth does know of them. Yes, records may exist but that doesn't mean they've been read. Also, for the laser to work you have to hope nothing gets in between the Laser and its target. There's a debris ring around the Earth and satellites. There's no guarantee that as laser could even get to the stations through all that.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:47 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Prysus wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hello, Hope you're doing well.

Greetings and Salutations. Relatively well. Frustrated with work stuff, but overall good.


That's good. I can totally understand the frustration though. :-(


Quote:
I'm going to try and avoid some of the specifics of the debate, as that's not really why I started posting. I really started posting to try and maybe serve as a translator (so to speak). So I'm going to try and stay neutral, but I will note I do have opinions (naturally) and that may show to a degree. I will address certain things you've said and/or done, because I'm talking with you and I think it may help in discussion, but it would feel wrong (in my view) to discuss too much of Hotrod's stuff since he's no longer part of this conversation. So it may feel like I'm taking sides, even though I'm trying not to (hopefully that makes sense).


Makes sense to me.


Quote:
I think both of you did a fair bit of putting words in the other's mouth, but I think it was (at least to some degree) due to the fact you two seemed to be having slightly different conversations. So, for example, I'll bring up the satellite thing. You often said he claimed it didn't extend the range, but then he claimed that he did. That could, equally, be viewed as putting words in his mouth. For this example, I will go back to the example I provided (as it's easier for me, and I know exactly what I meant and I don't have to guess at someone else's intent). The laser bounces off the ceiling and hits a target on the other side of the wall only 50 feet away. It would be true to say that it did NOT extend the range of the pistol, and that the pistol can shoot much farther than that and the range of the beam was unaffected. One could also argue that it did extend the range, as without the ceiling the pistol couldn't have hit the target. Someone could then argue I'm contradicting myself and I could argue that person is putting words in my mouth. We could argue about the accuracy of each statement, but it becomes pedantic because the focus becomes more on the specific usage of words instead of their intent.

I feel a fair bit of the conversations had been that way. This is why I say I think it was like watching two different conversations. One of you would say one thing and the other would take it in a slightly different way than intended (and I'm not saying either did this intentionally), and then the variance continues to expand.


Actually, I went out of my way to avoid putting words in his mouth. I'd say seem because I could be misunderstanding what he said. He may have been saying one thing but it seemed like he was saying something else.

As for the satellite ranges, I meant the range being extended by bouncing as was mentioned by someone else. Instead saying something like, "OH! That's what you meant. Yes, they do that." He continued with the can/can't. It wasn't until far later that he got it and let it go.



Quote:
I'll start by saying I've never read Mutants in Orbit (MiO), so I can't even try to discuss the specifics. But, from what I've seen in this thread (and others), I think this is the main issue.

Hotrod knows what the book says, but he feels it's stupid because it doesn't make logical sense. So, for example with them knowing each other, my understanding is the book states they have no clue of each other, but doesn't bother to explain why. And because they didn't address this point, it's poorly thought out. So I'll try to give a different example.

Let's say I write a game world. I write a book about the underwater city of Atlantis. In there I claim humans visiting Atlantis can then breathe underwater for 10 minutes and speak without drowning, but I don't explain why. Someone may feel I don't have any clue what I'm talking about. Another may think it's fine, and that I simply meant that humans can hold their breath for 10 minutes, and I didn't mean breath. And someone else can state that humans have been genetically modified to breath underwater for a limited duration. And someone else might think humans developed gills. And then another yet may think that there's something special about the air of Atlantis that fills your lungs and has some special reaction to the water. Even if people can provide logic out of what I wrote, what I wrote was illogical without explanation and was disjointed from reality. For some people (and I'd probably agree) this would make what I did poorly written.



I would say that what you've written, lacks detail but that detail isn't necessary to play the game. Humans can be underwater for 10 minuets. Does the how really matter? MiO does lack details but the reasons for not communicating are there. For some reason, Hotrod refused to believe them though.




Quote:
Now I don't actually know if someone on the moon can see city lights (say, from Chicago, as I compared it earlier to population) with just the naked eye. And if someone can prove his ideas of what's possible isn't true based on real world science, I think Hotrod would have been more willing to change his viewpoint. Another reader providing possible explanations/theories won't solve the problem, as it doesn't solve the fact the book (as written) failed to address why reality no longer works as we know it. Often, these kind of details can be explained in a sentence or two, or maybe a paragraph. It doesn't have to provide full detail, but at least the basic premise of why this is now varied.


I don't know either. I do know that I've seen pictures of the dark side of the Earth and didn't see lights. That picture was at 10,000 miles. The closest space station is 100,000 miles. I also know there's a picture in the Rifts Books that shows the dark side of the Earth with ley lines and no city lights were shown. Also if you're at a distance looking at the dark side of a planet, doesn't that mean that you're looking into the sun? Even at an angle? How would you see details then?


Quote:
And, at no point, did I claim they had to go to Earth at all. Again, I haven't read MiO, but I'll provide at least one alternate idea. For this idea, we'll have to take the stance that they can see lights and/or receive communications (because you have to understand the opposing viewpoint believes this is possible).

The Orbitals can attempt to negotiate with (for example) the CS. In exchange for satellite assistance (communication, weather, movement of enemy troops, etc.), the CS will send up a shuttle with supplies. The CS now gets tactical advantage not available to anyone else, and the Orbitals get resources with potentially minimal work. If just one orbital colony did this, they'd get additional resources that the other orbitals don't have, which would give them an advantage if they really are on the brink of war. Heck, the CS could recruit people from the 'Burbs (that the CS doesn't want around anyways), give them the opportunity for a new safe world (in space, and safety is one of the main reasons people are in the 'Burbs in the first place), and send them up as additional troops if needed. And that's just an example, without me knowing too much about the specifics of the setting.

Note: This isn't to state they should or should not do this, simply to point out there's a lot of possibilities beyond "land and die or never communicate with Earth again."


I didn't say that you did. You pointed out that there were non-human means and I pointed out that they were tried. As for the rest, that presumes all of that is possible when so far, text and pictures say otherwise. Now I do agree, having assets in space would be an advantage to those on the ground and visa versa. I think it'd be cool for there to be a CS Space Force, and a NGR Space Force. However, what I think is cool doesn't determine canon. Believing something should be or could be possible doesn't make it so.

Maybe such a scenario will happen in the future. I don't know. I hope we get a new Rifts Space book so we'll find out.


Quote:
Human nature (to me) varies. For some it will be about continuing to try even if you fail. For others, it may just be about survival (and more resources may be one avenue to aid in survival), in others it's to fight for your home even if you can't ever go back (I mean, think about the various soldier stories of someone expecting to never see their family again, but fighting anyways so others could have a better life).

And I think part of the problem with the human nature of the Orbitals cutting off all contact is that human nature is varied. Think about just this thread. Do you think everyone has the same view points? People joked about Hotrod being the type of person who would run out to get the radio. But why do you think such a trope exists? Is it because all humans act the exact same way? Is it because all humans will do whatever they're ordered to without question? Ultimately I think that's part of the point. Why don't the orbitals have anyone else of a different mindset? Instead, the Orbitals are in 100% in agreement, and that doesn't seem logical (at least to some).


Yes, I think there's a difference of opinions and generally I think that's a good thing. It becomes bad when someone acts on those opinions and endangers others. Thing is there's a difference between risking your life and endangering the lives of everyone with you. And the reason such a trope exists is because there are people who put what they believe above everything else, even if it gets someone killed. Which is unfortunately what happens. Their actions gets people killed or they get killed as they've become a danger to the others. It isn't a good thing.

As for the Orbitals. They tried and came to an agreement. Maybe one day they'll change it. Since they're heading towards war, or were, I don't know if that'll happen. Maybe the Arkons will have forced them to re-evaluate things. Or not. I don't know. I do know that one station is more tolerant than others so feelings aren't 100%. And maybe others feel the same but it's the leaders who have say.


Quote:
I say: "Prysus seems like an idiot who molests children" or "Prysus seems like a racist Nazi who beats his wife." I could try to say that I didn't insult him, and I never made any claims about him, but I'd say most people reading it will view it as an insult (one of the reasons I used my screen name as the example, and not someone else). Think about how you'd feel if someone made those kind of claims about you. Would the word "seems" make everything better? I'll say now, I'd have some strong feelings about those statements regardless of the word "seems" being included.

And yes, I went to more extremes. I don't think what you said is nearly to that level, and I don't want to make it sound like it was. In this case, I felt the extreme would help to illustrate the point: Simply adding "seems" doesn't make any claims magically acceptable.


It wasn't meant as an insult. And it saying seems doesn't make it one either. However, he was flat out ignoring canon and acting like the Rifts never happened by saying that the orbitals had no reason to turn their backs on Earth because he didn't like the amount of details given. He doesn't like them and believes humans wouldn't do that so that so canon shouldn't be because it's wrong. But he doesn't get to define canon. He ignores canon so that communications aren't lost and then attacks me for offering a guess about something. A guess, that I flat out said was a guess. That is insulting.



Quote:
And I think this is one of those times where I'll go back to the two of you seemingly having different conversations.

From what I could tell, Hotrod was saying communication should be possible.
You brought up language variance and technology as obstacles.
And while I think we can mostly agree it may add some difficulty, it doesn't change that it's possible. So he'll keep arguing how it's possible, and you'll continue to argue it's difficult, and you can't get anywhere because you're not in the same conversation (even though both sides are discussing communicating between the Orbitals and the Earth).


That presumes communication is possible. No where has it said it was Yet Hotrod believes communications never should have been lost. In fact MiO it says communication satellites were destroyed. Along with Rifts saying that lot of the Earth was destroyed as well. He says that they never should have been forgotten forgetting that after 50-70 years that those who knew about them are dead or will soon be. That's generations that never knew space travel. He forgets that with Earth's destruction most records went also. He forgets that reading levels are a lot lower than they were during the golden age. He says Erin Tarn would have educated them. Yet this is what Erin Tarn knows about space.

Rifts Ultimate Ed. page 10
Quote:
It is even said that man had set foot on the moon and could travel along the edge of space to get from one end of the world to the other in a matter of a few hours. Exactly how this was accomplished without traversing a Rift or using magic is not known, but it is true.

and page 17
Quote:
Outer Space is denied to us by forces we do not understand. That
has made what was once called satel lite communications (bouncing radio signals from satellites in Earth orbit) impossible. The most common theory is that one or more orbital, robot, "killer" space stations or satellites shoots down anything that reaches earth orbit.


The "most educated" person on Rifts Earth, doesn't really know much about space. She doesn't even say that man had colonized space. Just that he'd traveled there. How is the rest of the world supposed to know the stations still exist, when she doesn't even know of them?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So no. My stance isn't false.

Well, as someone who has been following the conversation, I'd say what you "seem" to think he's been trying to say, is not what he's been saying.


That may be. However, from what he has said, that is what he's led me to believe.

Quote:
From what I gathered, his stance is that he knows what the canon says, and he thinks it doesn't make sense (in a realism way, not that the words themselves elude him).
So if you have to add rationale to canon to justify it, then that doesn't prove that the canon is detailed or makes sense, just that it can make sense if someone puts more time and effort into it than what was printed. Note: I won't blame the original author, as I don't know what was included in the original manuscript and what may have been changed in editing, simply discussing final print.

So, for example, does MiO state in the canon the reason that communication was lost is due to language gaps and different technologies? If not, then this won't solve Hotrod's objections to the canon material. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.


Because he thinks it doesn't make sense doesn't change that it's canon. What's printed also makes sense to me. I could wish for more details but that doesn't change what is. He also attacked me for adding some rational to things. But it's okay for him to do so?

Think of it like this. Tom Hanks and crew are in Apollo 13 on their way to the Moon. Only this time they get a message from Huston, "Apollo 13. We have a problem." and then static. Once they back to orbit they can't see Huston at all. Kennedy Space Center is under water. California's fallen into the sea. Massive continents have appeared out of no where. They can't raise any one on the radio and what's left of the atmosphere is rapidly filling with ash. Do they go back to Earth anyway, or do they head for the von Braun Space Station and hope to make a life there? I think they'd say, "Heck with Earth! Let's get to the space station!"

Live long and prosper. :-)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:15 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Think of it like this. Tom Hanks and crew are in Apollo 13 on their way to the Moon. Only this time they get a message from Huston, "Apollo 13. We have a problem." and then static. Once they back to orbit they can't see Huston at all. Kennedy Space Center is under water. California's fallen into the sea. Massive continents have appeared out of no where. They can't raise any one on the radio and what's left of the atmosphere is rapidly filling with ash. Do they go back to Earth anyway, or do they head for the von Braun Space Station and hope to make a life there? I think they'd say, "Heck with Earth! Let's get to the space station!"

Live long and prosper. :-)


safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:31 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
It wasn't meant as an insult.
[snip]
He ... [snip] ... That is insulting.

Greetings and Salutations. I suspect from his point of view what he said "wasn't meant as an insult." But some of the things you said were "insulting" (to him). And I'm not trying to fault anyone, just point things out from the other perspective, because I think most of this was a lot of miscommunication.

Sambot wrote:
Because he thinks it doesn't make sense doesn't change that it's canon. What's printed also makes sense to me. I could wish for more details but that doesn't change what is. He also attacked me for adding some rational to things. But it's okay for him to do so?

Okay, for the record, I think everyone here (Hotrod included) who read the book will agree what canon is. And I'll try to explain why he's having an issue with your making rational ...

Hotrod understands what MiO says, and he thinks it's poorly written and/or thought out. He finds the best solution to scrap most of it and build it up from a logical base.
He's okay with someone adding material to make sense of it, BUT if you have to add to it then it doesn't make it any better written and/or thought out. Or, how about I represent it using math ...

MiO = 2

You feel 2 is a fine, and when a problem comes up you resolve it by making it: 2+1=3 (adding to it).
Hotrod sees 2, sees the same problems, and feels the better solution is: (2-1)+5=6 (taking away the nonsensical stuff, and then building up something better).

While he's not saying your solution is wrong, he's saying that your solution is no longer 2. And saying 2 is fine as is would be faulty if your end result is 3. His solution may be a bigger change, but both methods still involve change. So every time he's saying 2 doesn't make sense, and you feel it does, but you offer 3 as the solution, his stance is 3 does not equal 2. So his issue isn't with 3, it's that using 3 doesn't prove 2 makes sense as is.

As a writer, I generally agree with building on what's already there. So if Palladium did update MiO, I'd prefer them building on it to fill the gaps (similar to your method, though I don't I actually agree with all of your answers specifically). I can also say I think his solutions may make a better book that's more grounded in reality (even though it would alter in-world continuity and that bugs me). With that said, I'm likely to not respond further in this thread. This isn't about frustration, but I think I've been about as productive as I can be with this topic. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:39 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.


Doing so would use up more fuel than continuing around the moon.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:16 am
  

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Prysus wrote:
Sambot wrote:
It wasn't meant as an insult.
[snip]
He ... [snip] ... That is insulting.

Greetings and Salutations. I suspect from his point of view what he said "wasn't meant as an insult." But some of the things you said were "insulting" (to him). And I'm not trying to fault anyone, just point things out from the other perspective, because I think most of this was a lot of miscommunication.


Hello :) You may be right and that he didn't mean to be insulting, just as I have tried not to be. And I'm sure you're right in that there was a lot of miscommunication. I know I felt like we weren't communicating. :-(


Quote:
Okay, for the record, I think everyone here (Hotrod included) who read the book will agree what canon is. And I'll try to explain why he's having an issue with your making rational ...

Hotrod understands what MiO says, and he thinks it's poorly written and/or thought out. He finds the best solution to scrap most of it and build it up from a logical base.
He's okay with someone adding material to make sense of it, BUT if you have to add to it then it doesn't make it any better written and/or thought out. Or, how about I represent it using math ...(snip)


Everyone it entitled to their opinion. I've got no problem with that. The problem is that he disregards canon if he disagrees with it. I've shown where canon says something and he says I'm wrong, even though it's right there in the text.

Quote:
As a writer, I generally agree with building on what's already there. So if Palladium did update MiO, I'd prefer them building on it to fill the gaps (similar to your method, though I don't I actually agree with all of your answers specifically). I can also say I think his solutions may make a better book that's more grounded in reality (even though it would alter in-world continuity and that bugs me). With that said, I'm likely to not respond further in this thread. This isn't about frustration, but I think I've been about as productive as I can be with this topic. Farewell and safe journeys.


I do prefer to fill in the blanks or add to something to explain a problem than outright tossing everything. And while sometimes it may be best to start all over, I do think retcons should be kept to a minimum. Retcons cause ripples. Sometimes they're tiny other times they're massive. Completely redoing MiO would cause a very large ripple as other books would need to be rewritten. Doing everything that Hotrod would like would be a massive massive ripple effecting a very large number of books.

Also while I do like details, I do think there's something to leaving things open as it gives the GM and players more room to create.


Personally, I would love to see a large number of books updated to find out how things are going in certain places. Considering how many books that would take, along with the fact that some regions of the Earth still haven't been covered, I don't know how feasible that is. However, I do hope with this big demon/deevil war that's happening that we will get a couple of books, or one really big book, updating the entire world in the war's aftermath. Does the CS win? Do other nations around the world, rally to the cause and send what help they can? Will it include the space colonies? What attitudes are changed? What new alliances will be made? Will the CS soften their stance concerning certain beings further than they have now? Will those of other nations?

I am looking forward to finding out and learning how much things change. Hopefully for the better. This war could be where Earth and Space reconnect. Or not. I really don't know what Kevin has planned. But it would be a good spot for such an event. Since you and Hotrod aren't participating in this thread anymore though we can't talk about it. Oh well.

Live long and prosper. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:12 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.


Doing so would use up more fuel than continuing around the moon.


you worry about fatalities over fuel, if you lose all contacts you return to the planet because it's much better odds the station will be uninhabitable than the planet.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:25 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.


Doing so would use up more fuel than continuing around the moon.


you worry about fatalities over fuel, if you lose all contacts you return to the planet because it's much better odds the station will be uninhabitable than the planet.

The way the Apollo missions worked is that they physically did not have enough fuel to NOT go around the moon after their insertion burn, so they're going get relatively close to the station no mater what they do. And if the station is still broadcasting and sending out 'huh??? is happening' messages, there's still life over there, and you have a day or two to think things over before you can make a decision.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:25 pm
  

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Omegasgundam wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.


Doing so would use up more fuel than continuing around the moon.


you worry about fatalities over fuel, if you lose all contacts you return to the planet because it's much better odds the station will be uninhabitable than the planet.

The way the Apollo missions worked is that they physically did not have enough fuel to NOT go around the moon after their insertion burn, so they're going get relatively close to the station no mater what they do. And if the station is still broadcasting and sending out 'huh??? is happening' messages, there's still life over there, and you have a day or two to think things over before you can make a decision.


description explictly said they can't raise anyone on radio. i doubt anyone would look at their insturments see "planet's on fire and maybe exploding for no reason, also there's demons" and not assume they've gone haywire/sabotaged. i'm assuming if you cannot make contact with the space station you don't try to dock unannounced in case they make a course correction and you end up slamming into the station because i don't have NASA's handbook handy.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:30 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Omegasgundam wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
safety guidelines would be to check instruments, and abandon the mission and return to earth if they can't manage to regain contact with ground control i think.


Doing so would use up more fuel than continuing around the moon.


you worry about fatalities over fuel, if you lose all contacts you return to the planet because it's much better odds the station will be uninhabitable than the planet.

The way the Apollo missions worked is that they physically did not have enough fuel to NOT go around the moon after their insertion burn, so they're going get relatively close to the station no mater what they do. And if the station is still broadcasting and sending out 'huh??? is happening' messages, there's still life over there, and you have a day or two to think things over before you can make a decision.


description explictly said they can't raise anyone on radio. i doubt anyone would look at their insturments see "planet's on fire and maybe exploding for no reason, also there's demons" and not assume they've gone haywire/sabotaged. i'm assuming if you cannot make contact with the space station you don't try to dock unannounced in case they make a course correction and you end up slamming into the station because i don't have NASA's handbook handy.



I did describe what they could see so that'd rule out sabotage. Although there's still group hallucination. Not that that happened in this case. I also meant radio communications with Earth but I didn't specify that. So they could be alone in space. I was thinking the station was inhabited though. Even empty I think they'd try since they'd need to get more supplies.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:32 am
  

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What if the MiO know enough about Rifts to realize they don't want any part of it?

No one on Earth is going to be anything more than a paranoid senior partner in any sort of contact/alliance.
MiO have a bad deal, but nothing so bad as when dirtsiders start to show up.

-STS

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:57 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Observation: With our current tech telescopes we can see craters less than 2 miles across on the moon. Check it out on Googlemoon. The goldenage tech of the orbitals is probably better than our tech.


Possibly. Even if they were, they'd of been useless after the Rifts. Ash and Ley line light would have rendered them unusable. If they survived the earthquakes and other disasters that were happening. Do we know of any that survived?
... Uh yeah because the moon only ever faces the night side of the planet and the leylines are so bright they wash out the reflected light of the sun.
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Human Nature: If Human nature were like that we'd never have broken the sound barrier or crossed the sea or gotten to the moon or still use the space station


There's a difference between doing things that haven't been done that could be deadly, and constantly throwing life away.
There is also this thing called drones. And again. The scientist and engineers they sent to space (which would be most of the people) would have known not to go down right after the eruption and would have watched for signs. Those who did go by canon... if any went, were most likely not the scientists and engineers or were scientists or engineers with family and acted rashly trying to return.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Communication:... would have been lost from interference but would have returned just as it did down on the planet. Besides laser comms have never been noted as being distorted by leylines. The skies of Earth did not change color with the eruption of rifts, the air around rifts and leylines don't shimmer like a heatwave. IIRC RF is noted as getting sketchy around leylines and during the eruption and until the ash cleared from the air laser would likely be, effectively, jammed in most locations but as soon as the leylines subsides and the dust cleared the radios would work as normal. Though they would loose initial communications and the ash is supposed to stay up for several decades the scientists would know this and the effect of ash on communications and trasnsportation. Except those who acted rashly they wouldn't try to go to Earth until the clouds were clear. Some 70 plus years after the leylines erupted would be the first time the rational minds would attempt to go down to Earth. By that time the radio interference and laser com interference would have declined and communications would have started being attempted using the communication devices and codes from the time of the apocalypse. The Ticonderoga and ARCHIE would be able to recieve these. ARCHIE and any scientists on the Ticonderoga would be expecting contact around this time understanding the same principles the scientists on the moon understood. NGR, the Geo Front and any other Pre-Rift groups, that weren't pre-America, who also have people who understand science and technology wouldn't have been expecting communication prior to the ash plume clearing. Basically scientists on both ends with access to GA tech would know when to be expecting communications to be reestablished. Scientists on both ends would know about how long it takes for volcanic ash to settle. Scientists with GA tech on both ends would probably be able to see human-like activity going on.


How many of these scientists are going to be alive 70 years later?
:facepalm: Yes because all the scientists in space went, "you know what in about xxx years the ash should settle to allow us to return but hey F it lets not educate our children or leave records or notes of any kind because we're dumber than cavemen and aren't even going to leave cave paintings for those after us. Oh... wait your talking about the Earth bound. So... all the scientist on earth would have done the same thing.
If they hadn't people would have had to relearn the sciences over again and in most places they didn't.
Sambot wrote:
Of those still alive, and their apprentices, how many would be thinking of space, or Earth compared to the more pressing concerns around them?
Many. I wonder if we can escape to the moon? We will need to contact them. How can we... Oh the ash cloud would hinder that it would take xxx years for that to clear. I should write a note and teach my apprentice about that.
Sambot wrote:
The Ticonderoga - fighting D-Bee monsters in the oceans.
Hmm, it doesn't look like there are any ley lines on the moon. I wonder if they were affected. We could get REINFORCEMENTS. (using telescope immediately after the apocalypse, before the ash cloud spread) Hmm, It doesn't look like anything was damaged. Oh well we won't mention this to anyone ever again.
Sambot wrote:
The NGR - fighting Gargoyles.
Same thing before the ash spread they could still see there was no damage to moon base or space stations
Sambot wrote:
Geo-Front - busy with life underground and monsters.
... same thing, visual but no comms.
Sambot wrote:
Others - fighting D-Bees, Monsters, other humans.
... Don't care enough people would know and through later trade the others may learn too.
Sambot wrote:
ARCHIE-busy creating robots, races of D-Bees and fighting aliens and monsters. And ARCHIE's com range is limited to a 1500 miles without the satellite, and it's aimed at Earth.
Yup. I hear ARCHIE is real stupid too and would never consider re-purposing the satellite and I've also heard that computers like a 386 or an 80/88 could only do one task at a time... but then there are dual, quad, heck i7s have 6 or 8 cores depending on the model. So you think ARCHIE is an 80/88 no he is a super computer so he must be like a CRAY with 2.3 GigaFLOPS... oh but wait the modern low end i7 does 354 GFLOPS.
I think ARCHIE would be a bit better than an i7.
i7 5960X Those in space also have pressing concerns including a building up to a war among the colonies.[/quote] Oh... hear it is. Covered it above. The war among the colonies wouldn't have built up immediately and they still would have looked for survivors.

Sambot wrote:
As for Laser Communications, I think you'd have to know where to aim the laser. That means, knowing of the Orbital Colonies and their locations. We haven't seen anything that says anyone on Earth does know of them. Yes, records may exist but that doesn't mean they've been read.
Some of the crew of the Tico have been alive since the golden age. They would know and the ship should be capable of that type of communication while in calm waters... heck they probably have a damn stabalizing turret that keeps a laser on target so they can use it in normal conditions. Probably too much during big storms.
Sambot wrote:
Also, for the laser to work you have to hope nothing gets in between the Laser and its target. There's a debris ring around the Earth and satellites. There's no guarantee that as laser could even get to the stations through all that.
Incorrect. If the beam is broken it isn't like it deletes the entire message. The message would be intermittent and that could be handled by beaming the transmission multiple times with parity or beaming to multiple locations at the same time so the message could then be reconstructed.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:05 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Yes because all the scientists in space went, "you know what in about xxx years the ash should settle to allow us to return but hey F it lets not educate our children or leave records or notes of any kind because we're dumber than cavemen and aren't even going to leave cave paintings for those after us.


"So, should we send down an away team yet? Reconnect humanity with the glories of their history and begin to spread the Wonders of peace and progress?"

"Now the demons are fighting guys in black skull armor."

"...Are they good guys in black skull armor?"

"We got a video of some of them razing a village over some books about fixing engines, looks like."

"Remind me again how long humanity took to develop civility, again."

"About ten thousand years, why?"

"Lenny, i really hate you sometimes."

"Also there's a swarm of giant insects in Minnisota. The mimes seem to be on top of it though."

"just absolutely loathe you."

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:11 am
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
What if the MiO know enough about Rifts to realize they don't want any part of it?

No one on Earth is going to be anything more than a paranoid senior partner in any sort of contact/alliance.
MiO have a bad deal, but nothing so bad as when dirtsiders start to show up.

-STS


That's pretty much what they did. They saw what was happening and those that did go died so they said, "That's it." and decided Earth was gone. That there was no going back.

I don't see how either side could help each other. They're all busy fighting enemies where they are now. They're not going to be able to help others so far away.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:07 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
... Uh yeah because the moon only ever faces the night side of the planet and the leylines are so bright they wash out the reflected light of the sun.


No. It sees the light side. Doesn't mean they're looking or that they know anything is friendly.


Quote:
There is also this thing called drones. And again. The scientist and engineers they sent to space (which would be most of the people) would have known not to go down right after the eruption and would have watched for signs. Those who did go by canon... if any went, were most likely not the scientists and engineers or were scientists or engineers with family and acted rashly trying to return.


Drones. Been there done that. The probes saw destruction. It's in the book. As for those that returned, and by canon some did go, we don't know what profession or if they had family or not. I do think they were rash to return.

Quote:
:facepalm: Yes because all the scientists in space went, "you know what in about xxx years the ash should settle to allow us to return but hey F it lets not educate our children or leave records or notes of any kind because we're dumber than cavemen and aren't even going to leave cave paintings for those after us. Oh... wait your talking about the Earth bound. So... all the scientist on earth would have done the same thing.
If they hadn't people would have had to relearn the sciences over again and in most places they didn't.


People do die of old age and other natural causes. And yes, I'm sure children were educated. Most of that education would have been on how to stay alive. And yes, those on earth would have been doing the same thing and yes, technology would still be lost. Why is that so hard to believe? Knowledge is being lost right now.

Think about it. The USA had to relearn how to make a manned space vehicle. It'll be years before there's a space shuttle. That's technology lost, just because of disuse. The Rifts caused an apocalypse. Billions died. Knowledge was lost. If knowledge was not lost everyone would know that the SAMAS is a remodeled pre-rifts American Power Armor. Yet they don't know that and the Coalition has gone to great lengths to keep it that way.


Quote:
Many. I wonder if we can escape to the moon? We will need to contact them. How can we... Oh the ash cloud would hinder that it would take xxx years for that to clear. I should write a note and teach my apprentice about that.


Uh huh and in the intervening years, how many notes got lost? Other concerns take precedence? The apprentice died? Knowledge doesn't last forever. It is constantly being lost and relearned.

Quote:
Hmm, it doesn't look like there are any ley lines on the moon. I wonder if they were affected. We could get REINFORCEMENTS. (using telescope immediately after the apocalypse, before the ash cloud spread) Hmm, It doesn't look like anything was damaged. Oh well we won't mention this to anyone ever again.


Sorry. There are ley lines on the moon. MiO page 65
Quote:
What this means is that there are a score of ley lines crisscrossing the moon, creating nine ley line nexuses, two of fairly large magnitude.

And nothing was damaged? MiO page 57
Quote:
From their distant vantage point, it was obvious that the Earth was tearing itself apart. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive storms, and the eruptions of blue energy tore across the planet; no place was left unscathed.

So were do the reinforcements come from? And when did Earth have a giant continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The NGR - fighting Gargoyles.
Same thing before the ash spread they could still see there was no damage to moon base or space stations


The Moon Colony is largely subterranean. MiO page 61
Quote:
The
half dozen lunar mining stations and observation outposts on the surface was all that were severely damaged.

So how's the NGR supposed to know the Moon Colony was mostly okay? Even if they weren't busy with their own problems. As for the other Stations, it took a year to complete repairs. So I wouldn't say they weren't damaged.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Geo-Front - busy with life underground and monsters.
... same thing, visual but no comms.


Visual. From underground?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Others - fighting D-Bees, Monsters, other humans.
... Don't care enough people would know and through later trade the others may learn too.


What people would know? How would trading useless info help?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
ARCHIE-busy creating robots, races of D-Bees and fighting aliens and monsters. And ARCHIE's com range is limited to a 1500 miles without the satellite, and it's aimed at Earth.
Yup. I hear ARCHIE is real stupid too and would never consider re-purposing the satellite and I've also heard that computers like a 386 or an 80/88 could only do one task at a time... but then there are dual, quad, heck i7s have 6 or 8 cores depending on the model. So you think ARCHIE is an 80/88 no he is a super computer so he must be like a CRAY with 2.3 GigaFLOPS... oh but wait the modern low end i7 does 354 GFLOPS.
I think ARCHIE would be a bit better than an i7.
i7 5960X Those in space also have pressing concerns including a building up to a war among the colonies.


ARCHIE maybe really smart but that doesn't mean he can repurposed a satellite into something else. Even if he could send programming that doesn't mean the satellite can do what the programming says. It's like programming a laptop to make toast. It can run the program but I'm not going to get toast. Never mind butter and jelly.

Quote:
Oh... hear it is. Covered it above. The war among the colonies wouldn't have built up immediately and they still would have looked for survivors. [/quote]

The colonies did look for survivors. They didn't find any. MiO page 57
Quote:
Probes sent to Earth showed a planet still in the throes of upheaval. Tremendous storms and earthquakes still rocked the land. Strange energy readings, radiation and scores of anomalies were noted everywhere. Even the space-time continuum seemed to be torn apart. The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none. Some elected to try and perished .



Quote:
Some of the crew of the Tico have been alive since the golden age. They would know and the ship should be capable of that type of communication while in calm waters... heck they probably have a damn stabalizing turret that keeps a laser on target so they can use it in normal conditions. Probably too much during big storms.


Sure, they could remember. So? Communications to space don't work. The Tico's com system is also limited to 500 miles.


Sambot wrote:
Also, for the laser to work you have to hope nothing gets in between the Laser and its target. There's a debris ring around the Earth and satellites. There's no guarantee that as laser could even get to the stations through all that.
Incorrect. If the beam is broken it isn't like it deletes the entire message. The message would be intermittent and that could be handled by beaming the transmission multiple times with parity or beaming to multiple locations at the same time so the message could then be reconstructed.

Sorry but it is correct. IF the beam is broken communication is lost. If it isn't completely broken communication is garbled. How badly depends on how long the beam was broken. And now we're shooting beams at multiple locations? How are these lasers even being aimed 100,000 miles away?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:44 pm
  

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StormGryffen wrote:
Was there ever a definitive answer for why folks can't access outer space from RIFTS Earth? Are there any sources that describe what's out there?

Page 17 Rifts Ultimate Edition. Has to do with the Satellite network from the Golden Age having been set on high defense, and nobody knows the access codes to turn it back off.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
... Uh yeah because the moon only ever faces the night side of the planet and the leylines are so bright they wash out the reflected light of the sun.


No. It sees the light side. Doesn't mean they're looking or that they know anything is friendly.

Also doesn't mean they aren't

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
There is also this thing called drones. And again. The scientist and engineers they sent to space (which would be most of the people) would have known not to go down right after the eruption and would have watched for signs. Those who did go by canon... if any went, were most likely not the scientists and engineers or were scientists or engineers with family and acted rashly trying to return.


Drones. Been there done that. The probes saw destruction. It's in the book. As for those that returned, and by canon some did go, we don't know what profession or if they had family or not. I do think they were rash to return.
and they can continue sending drones. It is what they would have done instead of sending manned missions which is what this was in response to. Send a drone. Oh know there is just destruction. Give up.
Send a drone. Oh know there is just destruction. We will wait a year and send another drone.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
:facepalm: Yes because all the scientists in space went, "you know what in about xxx years the ash should settle to allow us to return but hey F it lets not educate our children or leave records or notes of any kind because we're dumber than cavemen and aren't even going to leave cave paintings for those after us. Oh... wait your talking about the Earth bound. So... all the scientist on earth would have done the same thing.
If they hadn't people would have had to relearn the sciences over again and in most places they didn't.


People do die of old age and other natural causes. And yes, I'm sure children were educated. Most of that education would have been on how to stay alive. And yes, those on earth would have been doing the same thing and yes, technology would still be lost. Why is that so hard to believe? Knowledge is being lost right now.

Think about it. The USA had to relearn how to make a manned space vehicle. It'll be years before there's a space shuttle. That's technology lost, just because of disuse. The Rifts caused an apocalypse. Billions died. Knowledge was lost. If knowledge was not lost everyone would know that the SAMAS is a remodeled pre-rifts American Power Armor. Yet they don't know that and the Coalition has gone to great lengths to keep it that way.
Ohh ya got me... wait no you didn't that is like saying that each time car companies design a car and have to go through extensive prototyping, testing and redesigning before coming up with final designs is because they forgot how to build cars even though they just built one last year. We didn't forget how to build manned space craft a new design has unforseen shortcomings. They could have just as easily used an old design but they are less efficient and the stages can't return. Everyone doesn't know what a Model-T is or what rocket Apollo 13 used but that doesn't mean that the knowledge of how to build cars or use rockets to launch things into space was lost.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Many. I wonder if we can escape to the moon? We will need to contact them. How can we... Oh the ash cloud would hinder that it would take xxx years for that to clear. I should write a note and teach my apprentice about that.


Uh huh and in the intervening years, how many notes got lost? Other concerns take precedence? The apprentice died? Knowledge doesn't last forever. It is constantly being lost and relearned.
Uh huh, anecdotal. It can easily go either way. You obviously prefer the way of "I need T.P. lets use this yellow piece of paper" over "We honor these writings and keep them as hallowed relics."

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Hmm, it doesn't look like there are any ley lines on the moon. I wonder if they were affected. We could get REINFORCEMENTS. (using telescope immediately after the apocalypse, before the ash cloud spread) Hmm, It doesn't look like anything was damaged. Oh well we won't mention this to anyone ever again.


Sorry. There are ley lines on the moon. MiO page 65
Quote:
What this means is that there are a score of ley lines crisscrossing the moon, creating nine ley line nexuses, two of fairly large magnitude.
Dang actually got me.

Sambot wrote:
And nothing was damaged? MiO page 57
Dang got me again

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
From their distant vantage point, it was obvious that the Earth was tearing itself apart. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive storms, and the eruptions of blue energy tore across the planet; no place was left unscathed.

So were do the reinforcements come from? And when did Earth have a giant continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean?
I didn't say reinforcements from the Earth to the Moon. Because those on Earth could still see active stations and activity on the moon they could contact them for reinforcements... but if it was from Earth to the moon. Maybe the NGR or the Ticonderoga both of which likely retain some familiarness to records.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The NGR - fighting Gargoyles.
Same thing before the ash spread they could still see there was no damage to moon base or space stations


The Moon Colony is largely subterranean. MiO page 61
and yet the important part for hability is the freaking dome that is visible.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
The
half dozen lunar mining stations and observation outposts on the surface was all that were severely damaged.

So how's the NGR supposed to know the Moon Colony was mostly okay? Even if they weren't busy with their own problems. As for the other Stations, it took a year to complete repairs. So I wouldn't say they weren't damaged.
Continued observation? Continued observation using technology to monitor the situation? If the NGR is too busy to look elsewhere they wouldn't have come in contact with the CS, there would be no time for sex or reading travel books from a quak.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Geo-Front - busy with life underground and monsters.
... same thing, visual but no comms.


Visual. From underground?
... yeah... NO from above ground before the country went underground.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Others - fighting D-Bees, Monsters, other humans.
... Don't care enough people would know and through later trade the others may learn too.


What people would know? How would trading useless info help?
Yeah... we never see this (Traversing the Modern World).



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
ARCHIE-busy creating robots, races of D-Bees and fighting aliens and monsters. And ARCHIE's com range is limited to a 1500 miles without the satellite, and it's aimed at Earth.
Yup. I hear ARCHIE is real stupid too and would never consider re-purposing the satellite and I've also heard that computers like a 386 or an 80/88 could only do one task at a time... but then there are dual, quad, heck i7s have 6 or 8 cores depending on the model. So you think ARCHIE is an 80/88 no he is a super computer so he must be like a CRAY with 2.3 GigaFLOPS... oh but wait the modern low end i7 does 354 GFLOPS.
I think ARCHIE would be a bit better than an i7.
i7 5960X Those in space also have pressing concerns including a building up to a war among the colonies.


ARCHIE maybe really smart but that doesn't mean he can repurposed a satellite into something else. Even if he could send programming that doesn't mean the satellite can do what the programming says. It's like programming a laptop to make toast. It can run the program but I'm not going to get toast. Never mind butter and jelly.
Seriously? No it is not. It is like programming a toaster to make darker toast or to only toast one side. He already has directional control of some satellites which have visual sensors he would only need to turn them.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:51 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Comment: This space for rent.
Zer0 Kay wrote:
He already has directional control of some satellites which have visual sensors he would only need to turn them.

He has access to only one comm satellite, and the book doesn't say he actually controls it.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:27 pm
  

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Monk

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Mack wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
He already has directional control of some satellites which have visual sensors he would only need to turn them.

He has access to only one comm satellite, and the book doesn't say he actually controls it.

Hmm... I was just going to ask how it is that he is only able to get one comm satellite. Who can out hack ARCHIE? Uh... another ARCHIE, an newer ARCHIE. And comm satellite most likely doesn't have a camera. But radio is omni directional so it should still pick up lunar chatter... but sat comms are usually tight beam dish focused microwave.

Okay fine ARCHIE can't tell there is survivors in space. However. I wonder if the Lunar ARCHIE knows about the Terran ARCHIE and allowed him to hack a satellite. ARCHIE should still be able to tell that there is a space presence if he tried hacking into other satellites and was countered.

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BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:37 pm
  

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Monk

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Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Also, for the laser to work you have to hope nothing gets in between the Laser and its target. There's a debris ring around the Earth and satellites. There's no guarantee that as laser could even get to the stations through all that.
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Incorrect. If the beam is broken it isn't like it deletes the entire message. The message would be intermittent and that could be handled by beaming the transmission multiple times with parity or beaming to multiple locations at the same time so the message could then be reconstructed.


Sorry but it is correct. IF the beam is broken communication is lost. If it isn't completely broken communication is garbled. How badly depends on how long the beam was broken. And now we're shooting beams at multiple locations? How are these lasers even being aimed 100,000 miles away?


No it is not. Objects passing through the beam only temporarily break the transmission. There is no garbling unless there are throusands of objects breaking it and even then whatever gets through is 100% clear and I wouldn't consider it garbled as there is no static that has to be dealt with as laser comms are either on or off there is no interference. The message isn't contained throughout the entire beam so that when you break the beam the entire message is lost.

Same way we aim lasers at the moon now.

https://wtop.com/science/2019/07/the-ex ... ack%20them.

There is no garbling like there is with radio it is either clear transmission or no transmission and objects passing between don't block the entire transmission message. Only if it parks there.

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BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

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Last edited by Zer0 Kay on Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:46 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Prysus wrote:
There are now literal mega-cities in the world. Fewer lights than before the cataclysm does not mean no lights. There's plenty of locations as the setting continues to show more and more places of cities (instead of mostly wilderness as originally portrayed in the setting).


no there aren't. there's cities but nothing approaching the scale you could call a mega-city. chi-town's a small city surrounded by a couple miles of unrelated slums they routinely purge because they don't want them there, you can't call the burps part of the city population when they're living in tents and chased off every time they get comfy. you can't just wrap a wall around baltimore and say it's a beacon of hope.
None quite meet mega-city status [10 million] but some come fairly close: :wink:

Melbourne and Perth have more people that live inside them than chi-town does; @2 million for chi town [in city] and 3,381,345/2,251,272 for the Australian Tech-Cities. In Japan, 8 million [golden-age pre-rifts humans] live in the [golden-age pre-rifts] city of Hiroshima. Munich has 3.9 million [NGR's 5 biggest cities have 25 million people total]. There is even Tritonia with 900,000 so there are plenty of big cities to see.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:07 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.

I'll do you one better and summarize!

The fundamental issue as I see it:
I dislike and reject the basic precepts of MiO, since I'd have to make up additional content to justify it.
Sambot likes and accepts the basic precepts of MiO, and he has no issue making up additional content to justify it.


Subtopics:
Human nature: I think it's unreasonable for the Orbitals to turn their back on their homeworld and species. Sambot disagrees.
Rules of Engagement: I think MiO doesn't present enough to justify the Orbitals indiscriminately killing everyone coming up the well. Sambot accepts MiO's rationale.
Observation: I think that the Orbitals would know of human societies on the surface and vice-versa through cursory observation and deliberate study with optics and radios. Sambot accepts MiO's assertion that neither knows anything about the other.
Communication: I think that the Orbitals could and would pick up radio signals and communicate with folks on the surface, and vice-versa. Sambot doesn't think they could or would.

While we've made some progress in sorting out some underlying facts, we've had no shift in either of our positions on the fundamental issue or the subtopics.

You have been reported... for MAKING SENSE. I agree with you and your assessment. The only thing is I don't have a problem coming up with stuff to justify the setting IF I plan on using it in a campaign. But when I do it is a whole house rule setting where the MiO book ends up being a suggestion with a bunch of gear and rules to make ships.

_________________
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BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:12 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
:shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.


The Orbitals assumed that there are no friendlies down below when it's obvious that there are people down below and they have made no effort whatsoever to determine if those people are friendly or hostile.


Some how I don't think we're reading the same book. We're certainly not reading the same things.

This is what they saw when the Rifts erupted.
Quote:
From their distant vantage point, it was obvious that the Earth was tearing itself apart. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive storms, and the eruptions of blue energy tore across the planet; no place was left unscathed. Many believed these terrifying events to be the end of the world.


This was the situation after a year.
Quote:
Probes sent to Earth showed a planet still in the throes of upheaval. Tremendous storms and earthquakes still rocked the land. Strange energy readings, radiation and scores of anomalies were noted everywhere. Even the space-time continuum seemed to be torn apart. The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none. Some elected to try and perished.


No where does it say that they saw survivors but even if they had there was no way to help them. Those that went to earth died. It's right there in print.
Quote:
Finally, they came to grips with their situation. If Earth was denied them, so be it, their new life was to be among the stars.
Earth is gone. History. There's no going back. The only thing to do is move forward.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


How do the Orbitals reconcile their conclusion that everyone below is dead with city lights in plain sight below, radio traffic that includes unencrypted human voices speaking human languages, and active man-made structures and vehicles one can easily see from orbit? MiO doesn't even try to address this, and that is a major failing of the book. I acknowledge that it's possible to add material and explanations to make the scenario less implausible, but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a fundamental flaw in MiO as a Rifts setting.


This is the Earth from 10,000 miles. Where are the lights, and man made structures?
https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/eart ... 0000-miles
The nearest Space Station is 100,000 miles and the sky is full of ash, energy lines, storms, etc. What lights are they supposed to be able to see? What signals are they supposed to hear?

The biggest flaw, MiO has is that it doesn't have enough details for you. But that's on you.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.


Most energy weapons on Rifts Earth accept a common type of E-clip. Sure, there are exceptions, but that was a standard established back in the Golden Age that people have stuck with. 25 years ago, there were no common cable types to speak of, and now we have USBs and universal adapters. Computers and technology in general trends toward compatibility as time goes on, and Golden Age tech is pretty interoperable in general. In terms of radio, there are international standards that people follow even when they're not legally required to in foreign countries, because that makes the radio communications gear they sell better able to communicate. Morse Code hasn't changed and still exists in Rifts Earth (and is part of the Radio: Basic skill). There are common frequency bands and standards that people use all over the world today.


As you said there's exceptions. And you've got 3 different types of USB connections. That I know of. If you don't have an adapter they won't work. And yes there's some commonality and bands and so on. That doesn't mean an AM radio will pick up FM signals. It doesn't mean they'll reach zillions of miles or they'd be talking over each other and no one would be able to tell what was being said.


Quote:
Much of that Golden Age tech is still around, in use, and still in production, both on Earth and in orbit. Radios in Rifts have ranges, but they don't have compatibility rules, which suggests to me that humanity worked out some common standards during the Golden Age and stuck with them through the dark ages. Suggesting that radios made during or based on those made during the Golden Age would be incompatible would require inventing new content and modifying the setting.


That doesn't mean it hasn't changed. You also don't need compatibility rules to know you can't get FM with an AM radio. I don't have to invent anything for that to remain true. And there are rules for different/alien technology.

I also don't have to invent anything to know that technology gets abandoned. There's only 1 mention of videotape in Rifts Unlimited Ed and they're in a library. Audio Tapes were likewise mentioned once in the Machine Ghost ability. Everything else is disk. Audiodisks can have how many different types of audio files? Files that aren't always compatible with every player? Videodisks? LD, VCD, SVCD, DVD, HD-DVD, Blue Ray, and all kinds of other video files that can be put on disk but not played on all players. Plus there's regional encoding so they can only be played in certain regions. And ever try to play a video and not have the right codec? Don't tell me things are 100% compatible because they're not.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.

Again, you're ignoring context. The next sentence states why only 3% admit to this; it'd be like being North Korean and admitting to watching Captain America.

If you saw a study that claimed "only 3% of high school boys publicly admit to having masturbated," would you interpret that to mean 97% of those boys truthfully hadn't?


No you're ignoring the context.
Quote:
In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn's books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities
are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories


Those are the estimated numbers of those believed to have read her books or have been read too. Three numbers for three different groups. You're lumping different groups. You want all the population?
Quote:
96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings.
Quote:
100% of all Coalition citizens know of and recognize Emperor Karl Prosek,

Please note "knew about" and "know of and recognize" are different things.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

Sure! I've lived in Spain, England, and Iraq. It takes a little longer to work out what people with thick accents are saying, but it's doable.

"Put the hammer down" is an expression meaning to drive as fast as possible. Or it can mean to take the hammer in your hand and set it down. Kind of hard to figure out which you mean without some context.


Must have been interesting, and hot being there. And you recognize that it can be difficult to understand someone even if they're speaking the same language.

And thank you. I meant speed up. Literally putting the hammer down is another answer. So is lowering the hammer of a gun. There's probably more. Context would help but not always. Words have different meanings and that could lead to a misunderstanding can lead to blows. When you take language drift, slang, different meanings, accents, second language, etc it'd be easy to miss communicate.

I'm not saying its impossible. I'm not saying it'd totally easy. I am saying that there will be differences. It's also probably vary from person to person.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?

Nothin in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has killed or enslaved anyone in orbit.
Nothing in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has destroyed anything in orbit.


And yet killer satellites exist for a reason. Do we really need a list of victims?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?

Lots to unpack here.

First, I'm not ignoring your MiO quotes, I'm saying that those quotes don't justify or explain the basics of the setting MiO sets out. You accept them at face value; I don't. You either ignore the plot holes, inconsistencies, and leaps of logic they require or create whatever you need to make them work. I don't.


I don't need the level of detail that you seem to.


Quote:
Second, your point about the C.S. is irrelevant. Even if the C.S. was all-powerful, they wouldn't indiscriminately kill everyone they meet. Debees, yes. Magic users, yes. Political enemies, sure. Not everyone. Only the Orbitals do that.


You're ignoring where it says they would do just that.

Quote:
Your point about people on Earth being able to see the killer satellites is my point as well. You choose to accept this at face value and assume there's some explanation. I don't.


I take it to mean that those with telescopes have a hard time seeing satellites with all the light from ley lines, aurora borealis, and space debris. After all Rifts Earth is not the Earth we have now. Things aren't going to be the same.

Quote:
Same with the "Earth has lots of resources" argument against the Orbitals' blockade; you assume that the setting makes sense and handwave any potential issues. I don't.

The Bank has lots of money. That doesn't mean I can access it. Handwavium isn't going to change that.


Quote:
Finally, according to MiO, the actual survival odds of someone from orbit surviving on Earth for a single day are on the order of 1 in a few million when you do the math. According to MiO, the odds of someone who's been living in microgravity for six months or so surviving their return to Earth are about 50%. This is demonstrably false, but I'll set that aside. There is no need for Orbitals themselves to go to the surface; they can send autonomous or remote-controlled robots down (both are a thing in MiO). The reasons for going down? Resources! Air, water, food, raw materials, et cetera are very simple to acquire on Earth, far more so than in space. Sure, getting back up into Orbit takes some serious delta-V, but that's doable with their level of technology.


Actually, I think they're being generous at 50%. It is a fact that those in space suffer bone and muscle loss among other problems. I'm going to presume after several hundred years humans adapted so those problems aren't. At least as long as they're in space. They're not going to have a good time on Earth. They'll be even less happy trying to leave it. Just being on Earth is going to be an incredible stress on their bodies. Trying to leave...

https://www.universetoday.com/20338/wei ... 3%20pounds.
Quote:
Your weight on the Moon is 16.5% what you would experience on Earth. In other words, if you weighed 100 kg on Earth, you would weigh a mere 16.5 kg on the Moon. For you imperial folks, imagine you tipped the scales at 200 pounds. Your weight on the Moon would only be 33 pounds.

https://books.google.com/books?id=LqZcS ... DXoECBQQAQ
Quote:
Astronauts experiencing 4g during launch would feel five times heavier due to the


So a Moon Colonist will be more than 6 times heavier on Earth and then that weight increases 5 times getting into orbit. So they'd be 11 times heavier trying to get into space? Why take that risk? And yes, they could try robotics, but are the Orbitals capable of escape velocity? I'm not sure any of the 5 Drive Types available can go that fast. And why go when the resources are there in space?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

There's more out there than hypothermia and starvation that can kill you:
"Timmy died of his injuries weeks before we finally found his body. If only he'd had an EPIRB!"
"If only we could have called that guy on a satellite phone, we could have explained the situation and averted a war!"
"The Edmund Fitzgerald II got caught in a hurricane way out at sea and sank. If only we could see those with a weather satellite!"

I would say that the people whose lives these technologies would save need them to survive.


And if Columbus had GPS he wouldn't have gotten lost and found the "New World"
All that presumes there are satellites. Most of the satellites that Earth could talk to were destroyed. Out of those that were left it'd be surprising if there were a lot still functioning. ARCHIE 3's managed to use one satellite. Yet it seems like you think everyone should have satellite communications. That skill isn't even offered in Rifts.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.

Cool link! I especially like the part where it says "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead."

Aside from the fact that MiO includes communications satellites in it, we already addressed the concepts of radio range in free space vs on Earth's surface.


Thanks. You will not that you'd need a radio that can receive those frequencies. Not every radio is. You'll also note that the time was also limited to 10 minuets and that they only tried 45 times a year. Probably more by appointment. That really narrows down those that can hear those in space to those that get lucky or have an appointment.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

I'm glad we agree that the C.S. doesn't shoot everyone else on sight like the Orbitals do. I've pressed this point because there have been several points at which you've seemed to indicate otherwise, such as the bolded text above or your first reply to this thread, when you said:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation.(snip) Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.


It is the CS policy to shoot first. They've temporarily set that aside as they're in a war and very stretched. Before then it was individual troopers who decided not to shoot. And if they had a "shoot first" person in their mist, especially above them in rank, they could be in trouble.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.

I'm happy to reject MiO's precepts and invent my own setting. You're happy to accept MiO's precepts and invent whatever's required to justify it.

If I were to distill our entire discussion down, I would characterize it this way:
Because you have to create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, I think MiO's setting precepts are nonsense.
Because you can create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, you think those setting precepts make sense.


I don't have to justify the setting precepts or create stuff. There's enough there to play and that lack of "details" given allows each game to be different. I wouldn't mind some more but I know that the more details there are the more they narrow what I can do in canon.

On the other hand, you have a problem with the lack of details. You've complained about them loud and clear. You also ignore what you don't like. I've shown you the CS policy and why they've suspended it. Yet you've changed the suspension as "always was.". Which is fine for your games. I do the same. But that isn't how it is in canon. For the CS the enemy of my enemy is my enemy. As soon as they are no longer useful, they'll be eliminated.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:

I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.

If we accept that argument, then MiO provides examples of a bunch of killer satellites but leave out the actual satellites that would have to do 99%+ of the actual shooting. That's like giving C.S. Grunts 12 vibro-knife options but forgetting to mention that they also have laser rifles.


Not really. It's more like giving the NGR a navy but no OCCs for it. :-?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.

And universal adapters are a thing. Golden Age tech is pretty standardized in Rifts, as is tech based on it. Your radio compatibility argument requires the introduction of incompatibility issues across the entire setting, not just from ground to orbit. This issue doesn't show up anywhere in canon, so your argument is invalid.


If everyone used the same thing, there wouldn't need to be adapters.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.

You could put it that way, sure.


Thank you.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.

It's like saying that more than one person should be able to read a published book.


:| :| :| :| Are you saying they should share? It would be nice if they did. Not everyone is that nice though.


Hotrod wrote:
Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


While trying to prove cities on Earth can't be seen on the night side from space, could you please provide a photo that isn't of the southern hemisphere over the atlantic with the last major city to the west still in daylight?

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/NightLights

Current War with "Terror"/Afghanistan 2001-Present Do you think the afghans think the the entire world is embroiled in war?
Gasp Oh no a year after a disaster we have sent a probe out and it still looks bad we will not do anymore research because we are stupid.

CENTURIES later. Oh no there are no signs of life on the planet, ignore the non-blue lights those can't possibly be cities. There is no further point of exploring der Mond fuehrer has spoken... two centuries ago and were going to remember that, instead of going with humanities actual nature of rebellion and truth seeking followed by disbelief and misinterpretation... instead we choose total compelled ignorance.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:56 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.


Uh, they have telescopes, communications systems and quite the vantage point for eavesdropping. Meaning they could have a reasonably good idea of at least who is who, how weird stuff is and maybe hand-pick a community here or there for some social engineering trough educational radio courses and similar resources that has existed since the 40s-50s of the 20th century? Make it a proxy struggle for the rebuilding of civilization. As you said, more than two centuries, that's a lot of time to just twiddle one's thumbs while turning your back on survivors that you can see/hear are struggling through far worse than them down on Earth and still manage to get bit by bit away from the brink.

And that without going into the matter of the NGR, that has an history of almost continuous struggle and perseverance/preservation of their know-how through the whole of the dark ages up to PA times.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:22 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.


Uh, they have telescopes, communications systems and quite the vantage point for eavesdropping. Meaning they could have a reasonably good idea of at least who is who, how weird stuff is and maybe hand-pick a community here or there for some social engineering trough educational radio courses and similar resources that has existed since the 40s-50s of the 20th century? Make it a proxy struggle for the rebuilding of civilization. As you said, more than two centuries, that's a lot of time to just twiddle one's thumbs while turning your back on survivors that you can see/hear are struggling through far worse than them down on Earth and still manage to get bit by bit away from the brink.

And that without going into the matter of the NGR, that has an history of almost continuous struggle and perseverance/preservation of their know-how through the whole of the dark ages up to PA times.




Clearly you're too reasonable for this thread.
I made a similar statement earlier.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:23 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.


Uh, they have telescopes, communications systems and quite the vantage point for eavesdropping. Meaning they could have a reasonably good idea of at least who is who, how weird stuff is and maybe hand-pick a community here or there for some social engineering trough educational radio courses and similar resources that has existed since the 40s-50s of the 20th century? Make it a proxy struggle for the rebuilding of civilization. As you said, more than two centuries, that's a lot of time to just twiddle one's thumbs while turning your back on survivors that you can see/hear are struggling through far worse than them down on Earth and still manage to get bit by bit away from the brink.

And that without going into the matter of the NGR, that has an history of almost continuous struggle and perseverance/preservation of their know-how through the whole of the dark ages up to PA times.




Clearly you're too reasonable for this thread.
I made a similar statement earlier.

As have I. It is obviously no use.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:00 pm
  

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That said, having some "orbital Lazlo" is something that could considerably change the setting's arrangement, so i can understand the writers wanting to avoid that being a thing.

So, going on a different tack, i would suggest keeping "the gauntlet" as a thing, but a work NOT of the orbitals, but the coldly unrelenting paranoia of Archie-4, that being the ultimate master of the Moon colony, has access to considerably more resources than all of the orbitals together - and most nations in Rifts Earth, for that matter - specially given enough time, like the 2+ centuries of the Dark Age.

This way you can have orbital people that might be more amenable to communication and aware of the situation downside (depending on how many hoops Arch-4 puts on this too for security reasons - i can totally see Archie-3 in his centuries of manic-depression rambling through radio or trying to angrily hack its "sibling", for who knows what strange motives) and maintain a major obstacle that preserves status quo, as long as breaking it down is not a major plot of an individual campaign.

Just an idea.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:19 pm
  

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I have always said the easiest way to fix Rifts space is:
1) - Move the stations farther away. I moved Freedom to the Earth-Sun L5 where it is more than just a station but a cluster of ship yards, hydroponic facilities and hydrogen farms. Laiko still orbits the moon, Outcast is in the Belt, and Euro is in Earth-Sun L4. If I ever do it again I'm moving Euro to Jupiter.

2) - The effect around Rifts earth is from the ley lines. Even if orbitals want to help ships that try to go down to Earth frequently disappear while trying to land. I also really increase the debris field around earth. These two things put together have an effect of making even communication difficult.

SolCannibal wrote:
That said, having some "orbital Lazlo" is something that could considerably change the setting's arrangement, so i can understand the writers wanting to avoid that being a thing.

So, going on a different tack, i would suggest keeping "the gauntlet" as a thing, but a work NOT of the orbitals, but the coldly unrelenting paranoia of Archie-4, that being the ultimate master of the Moon colony, has access to considerably more resources than all of the orbitals together - and most nations in Rifts Earth, for that matter - specially given enough time, like the 2+ centuries of the Dark Age.

This way you can have orbital people that might be more amenable to communication and aware of the situation downside (depending on how many hoops Arch-4 puts on this too for security reasons - i can totally see Archie-3 in his centuries of manic-depression rambling through radio or trying to angrily hack its "sibling", for who knows what strange motives) and maintain a major obstacle that preserves status quo, as long as breaking it down is not a major plot of an individual campaign.

Just an idea.

I think the Archie 4 idea is cool but I prefer a completely robotic AI, no psi who tries to correct his brother and in the meantime is helping heroes on Earth thwart Archie 3's worst plans.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:46 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I have always said the easiest way to fix Rifts space is:
1) - Move the stations farther away. I moved Freedom to the Earth-Sun L5 where it is more than just a station but a cluster of ship yards, hydroponic facilities and hydrogen farms. Laiko still orbits the moon, Outcast is in the Belt, and Euro is in Earth-Sun L4. If I ever do it again I'm moving Euro to Jupiter.

2) - The effect around Rifts earth is from the ley lines. Even if orbitals want to help ships that try to go down to Earth frequently disappear while trying to land. I also really increase the debris field around earth. These two things put together have an effect of making even communication difficult.

SolCannibal wrote:
That said, having some "orbital Lazlo" is something that could considerably change the setting's arrangement, so i can understand the writers wanting to avoid that being a thing.

So, going on a different tack, i would suggest keeping "the gauntlet" as a thing, but a work NOT of the orbitals, but the coldly unrelenting paranoia of Archie-4, that being the ultimate master of the Moon colony, has access to considerably more resources than all of the orbitals together - and most nations in Rifts Earth, for that matter - specially given enough time, like the 2+ centuries of the Dark Age.

This way you can have orbital people that might be more amenable to communication and aware of the situation downside (depending on how many hoops Arch-4 puts on this too for security reasons - i can totally see Archie-3 in his centuries of manic-depression rambling through radio or trying to angrily hack its "sibling", for who knows what strange motives) and maintain a major obstacle that preserves status quo, as long as breaking it down is not a major plot of an individual campaign.

Just an idea.

I think the Archie 4 idea is cool but I prefer a completely robotic AI, no psi who tries to correct his brother and in the meantime is helping heroes on Earth thwart Archie 3's worst plans.


In my take Archie 4 would be very much the essence of that paranoid isolationism for sake of order that pervades the thinking behind the "killersat cloud" (also not quite what my version of the problem would be) and it definitely is not psionic, having not spent centuries exposed to a nexus close by to jumpstart it into that route, like in Archie-3's case.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:17 pm
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I have always said the easiest way to fix Rifts space is:
1) - Move the stations farther away. I moved Freedom to the Earth-Sun L5 where it is more than just a station but a cluster of ship yards, hydroponic facilities and hydrogen farms. Laiko still orbits the moon, Outcast is in the Belt, and Euro is in Earth-Sun L4. If I ever do it again I'm moving Euro to Jupiter.

2) - The effect around Rifts earth is from the ley lines. Even if orbitals want to help ships that try to go down to Earth frequently disappear while trying to land. I also really increase the debris field around earth. These two things put together have an effect of making even communication difficult.

SolCannibal wrote:
That said, having some "orbital Lazlo" is something that could considerably change the setting's arrangement, so i can understand the writers wanting to avoid that being a thing.

So, going on a different tack, i would suggest keeping "the gauntlet" as a thing, but a work NOT of the orbitals, but the coldly unrelenting paranoia of Archie-4, that being the ultimate master of the Moon colony, has access to considerably more resources than all of the orbitals together - and most nations in Rifts Earth, for that matter - specially given enough time, like the 2+ centuries of the Dark Age.

This way you can have orbital people that might be more amenable to communication and aware of the situation downside (depending on how many hoops Arch-4 puts on this too for security reasons - i can totally see Archie-3 in his centuries of manic-depression rambling through radio or trying to angrily hack its "sibling", for who knows what strange motives) and maintain a major obstacle that preserves status quo, as long as breaking it down is not a major plot of an individual campaign.

Just an idea.

I think the Archie 4 idea is cool but I prefer a completely robotic AI, no psi who tries to correct his brother and in the meantime is helping heroes on Earth thwart Archie 3's worst plans.


In my take Archie 4 would be very much the essence of that paranoid isolationism for sake of order that pervades the thinking behind the "killersat cloud" (also not quite what my version of the problem would be) and it definitely is not psionic, having not spent centuries exposed to a nexus close by to jumpstart it into that route, like in Archie-3's case.

I guess I just prefer the yin & yang approach to it. I also like the idea that it is humans abandoning there brothers and sisters on Earth and the AI is trying to help them. It works historically but also has a similar feel to the creation of the Mechanoids. The idea of fear and shame creating a monster.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:46 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I have always said the easiest way to fix Rifts space is:
1) - Move the stations farther away. I moved Freedom to the Earth-Sun L5 where it is more than just a station but a cluster of ship yards, hydroponic facilities and hydrogen farms. Laiko still orbits the moon, Outcast is in the Belt, and Euro is in Earth-Sun L4. If I ever do it again I'm moving Euro to Jupiter.

2) - The effect around Rifts earth is from the ley lines. Even if orbitals want to help ships that try to go down to Earth frequently disappear while trying to land. I also really increase the debris field around earth. These two things put together have an effect of making even communication difficult.

SolCannibal wrote:
That said, having some "orbital Lazlo" is something that could considerably change the setting's arrangement, so i can understand the writers wanting to avoid that being a thing.

So, going on a different tack, i would suggest keeping "the gauntlet" as a thing, but a work NOT of the orbitals, but the coldly unrelenting paranoia of Archie-4, that being the ultimate master of the Moon colony, has access to considerably more resources than all of the orbitals together - and most nations in Rifts Earth, for that matter - specially given enough time, like the 2+ centuries of the Dark Age.

This way you can have orbital people that might be more amenable to communication and aware of the situation downside (depending on how many hoops Arch-4 puts on this too for security reasons - i can totally see Archie-3 in his centuries of manic-depression rambling through radio or trying to angrily hack its "sibling", for who knows what strange motives) and maintain a major obstacle that preserves status quo, as long as breaking it down is not a major plot of an individual campaign.

Just an idea.

I think the Archie 4 idea is cool but I prefer a completely robotic AI, no psi who tries to correct his brother and in the meantime is helping heroes on Earth thwart Archie 3's worst plans.


In my take Archie 4 would be very much the essence of that paranoid isolationism for sake of order that pervades the thinking behind the "killersat cloud" (also not quite what my version of the problem would be) and it definitely is not psionic, having not spent centuries exposed to a nexus close by to jumpstart it into that route, like in Archie-3's case.

I guess I just prefer the yin & yang approach to it. I also like the idea that it is humans abandoning there brothers and sisters on Earth and the AI is trying to help them. It works historically but also has a similar feel to the creation of the Mechanoids. The idea of fear and shame creating a monster.


Way i'm working on it, neither is truly wrong or right. Archie-4 has its strong points and truth be told a good number of its wardens in the moon agree with its policies. It's simply a matter of different perspectives, that in the computer's case involve being active all through the dark ages and being aware of things he's uncertain of revealing (like its rogue sibling and past attempt at surverting it, among other messes) due to how they might affect the human population and drive some people even more paranoid than it.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:16 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Way i'm working on it, neither is truly wrong or right. Archie-4 has its strong points and truth be told a good number of its wardens in the moon agree with its policies. It's simply a matter of different perspectives, that in the computer's case involve being active all through the dark ages and being aware of things he's uncertain of revealing (like its rogue sibling and past attempt at surverting it, among other messes) due to how they might affect the human population and drive some people even more paranoid than it.

Just an FYI, in Rifts space the CAN republic is run by ARCHIE 7. ARCHIE 4 was destroyed in or put out of commission during the coming of the rifts. You can assume that they built 5 to replace it and then 6 and finally 7. I am guessing seven is maybe 50 or so years old.

In my game the bunker that housed ARCHIE 4 was heavily damaged and near a nexus point. 4 was not destroyed but he was cut off from all communication with only passive sensor arrays. He sat, watched Earth and the orbitals for almost 200 years. He was then discovered by some adventurers that reconnected him to the outside world and began working with him. He has some connections to CAN but is more of an outside player now.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:25 am
  

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SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.


Uh, they have telescopes, communications systems and quite the vantage point for eavesdropping. Meaning they could have a reasonably good idea of at least who is who, how weird stuff is and maybe hand-pick a community here or there for some social engineering trough educational radio courses and similar resources that has existed since the 40s-50s of the 20th century? Make it a proxy struggle for the rebuilding of civilization. As you said, more than two centuries, that's a lot of time to just twiddle one's thumbs while turning your back on survivors that you can see/hear are struggling through far worse than them down on Earth and still manage to get bit by bit away from the brink.

And that without going into the matter of the NGR, that has an history of almost continuous struggle and perseverance/preservation of their know-how through the whole of the dark ages up to PA times.


i don't think there's a single community that doesn't run the risk of being found out by at least one group of "baddies" which is just asking for trouble for the sake of "rebuilding civilization" that may well fail entirely due to the fact portals to hell keep opening up and apparently the sometimes spit out massive armies. better to wait for things to settle down than risk being targeted by extradimensional hell-disney, the least subtle fascists in history, the vampires of dagon, or mad max russia.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:16 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Way i'm working on it, neither is truly wrong or right. Archie-4 has its strong points and truth be told a good number of its wardens in the moon agree with its policies. It's simply a matter of different perspectives, that in the computer's case involve being active all through the dark ages and being aware of things he's uncertain of revealing (like its rogue sibling and past attempt at surverting it, among other messes) due to how they might affect the human population and drive some people even more paranoid than it.

Just an FYI, in Rifts space the CAN republic is run by ARCHIE 7. ARCHIE 4 was destroyed in or put out of commission during the coming of the rifts. You can assume that they built 5 to replace it and then 6 and finally 7. I am guessing seven is maybe 50 or so years old.

In my game the bunker that housed ARCHIE 4 was heavily damaged and near a nexus point. 4 was not destroyed but he was cut off from all communication with only passive sensor arrays. He sat, watched Earth and the orbitals for almost 200 years. He was then discovered by some adventurers that reconnected him to the outside world and began working with him. He has some connections to CAN but is more of an outside player now.


My bad, it has been quite some time since i last read MiO, had completely forgotten the moon colony's Friend Computer was a few steps farther from the Archie downstairs we all know and love. Thought it was mostly the same machine from the Cataclysm with a few tweaks, as i would imagine replacing the thing might be problematic for an isolated moon colony in most circunstances...

Orin J. wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Sambot wrote:
As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.


Uh, they have telescopes, communications systems and quite the vantage point for eavesdropping. Meaning they could have a reasonably good idea of at least who is who, how weird stuff is and maybe hand-pick a community here or there for some social engineering trough educational radio courses and similar resources that has existed since the 40s-50s of the 20th century? Make it a proxy struggle for the rebuilding of civilization. As you said, more than two centuries, that's a lot of time to just twiddle one's thumbs while turning your back on survivors that you can see/hear are struggling through far worse than them down on Earth and still manage to get bit by bit away from the brink.

And that without going into the matter of the NGR, that has an history of almost continuous struggle and perseverance/preservation of their know-how through the whole of the dark ages up to PA times.


i don't think there's a single community that doesn't run the risk of being found out by at least one group of "baddies" which is just asking for trouble for the sake of "rebuilding civilization" that may well fail entirely due to the fact portals to hell keep opening up and apparently the sometimes spit out massive armies. better to wait for things to settle down than risk being targeted by extradimensional hell-disney, the least subtle fascists in history, the vampires of dagon, or mad max russia.


I think you are exagerating things a little, to say the least. Yes, every small community runs the risk of being obliterated by some random rift bring a band of marauding monsters or somesuch and that's not going to change anytime soon anywhere without major landscaping through magical pyramids, we all know it.

Doesn't mean that every time one such a community is threatened, a major power of darkness will find out about "Radio Free Classes" and decide to actively track down and obliterate the orbital educators with laser-guided paranoid wrath. Lazlo would have been a fumegating crater long ago otherwise.

Rifts Earth has a variety of problems - some a growing community might be able to deal with. Some it won't, but survivors will rebuilt and start anew (and keep contact) from some other place.

At times the invader of occasion will devastate the place in such a way it won't notice the locals had regular contact with anyone. At others it will notice something, but not really care, because details are lacking and it has other priorities, mundane, esoteric or other. Not like you need to be in space to set up a pirate radio with a goody agenda (Lazlo, New lazlo, rogue scholars/operators everywhere, etc....), so even if someone discovers the transmissions and has reasons to want to stop, they may take time to actually catch on that they come from above - if they have the time & resources to succed at that.

Then, they might worry about actively doing stuff about the Orbitals. So, a number of steps, ups & downs at hand and quite some narrative mileage a GM and group could make out of it all. 100% risk free does not exist, even less so in Rifts Earth. So no real justification for twiddling on one's thumbs.


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