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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:55 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.


You'll have to effectively do all of that to mine asteroids for minerals, plus you have to add in braking burns to get to where the Orbitals are building their satellites, plus all the refining and manufacturing, plus accellerating away the satellites from the manufacturing site, and then braking burns to put them into orbit.


In reverse order... ;)
You can use the asteroid itself for fuel, if you don't mind loosing 10-15% of it's mass...you just use solar mirrors to concentrate light/heat to cause a thrust plume.

How are the C's missiles supposed to make it through the debris ring? Something massing a few tens of grams moving that fast will do a LOT of damage (likely something on the order of multiple D6s of M.D.C. per object). Think of the pure physics of the situation...enough armour on the missile to protect it from the debris ring, and the blasted thing will burn-out on the launch platform without ever moving more than maybe a few metres.
Besides, with the distance the C could do anything, the best they could do is break it apart, which would simply cause the damage to go from highly localised to much broader. Think about it like the difference between a single round, and a shotgun shell.

The orbitals want to quarantine the planet, not wipe it out.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:00 pm
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I hope HAM radios are still in use but I don't know if they would be as I've witnessed their declining use. And yes, while radios are still in use that doesn't mean they're always compatible. Analog and Digital don't always mix.

Radio technology is not space travel. It requires orders of magnitude less complexity, no volatile chemicals, no controlled explosions, and no major infrastructure.


True but it still takes some infrastructure.

Do you seriously think that people who are actively designing and manufacturing power armor, cyborgs, juicers, giant robots, environmental body armor, and mega damage energy weapons are going to have problems putting together and operating a radio?

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I didn't say they were idiots but seeing a "human" community and knowing a human community are different things. How do they know those humans aren't enslaved or possessed? Are they even human? Looks can be deceiving. They could be aliens or demons that look very similar. Atlanteans, Lemurians, Elves, Dwarves, Vampires, Dragons, Changlings, Were Creatures, etc.


They're not idiots, they're just tin-foil-hat-level conspiracy theorists who assume, without evidence, that everything down below is a monster or minion thereof?

Not a great argument.


Considering things that come out of the rifts keep trying to kill, enslave or possess them I wouldn't say they're without evidence.

That's not what MiO says the Orbitals' probes saw. They saw some nasty conditions, assumed nothing could survive, and decided to blockade Earth indefinitely.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:


With some exceptions, the languages spoken in orbit are little different from those spoken on Earth. There are a great many barriers between Earth and orbit in MiO, but language is not one of them.


Written or spoken? There may be little difference in a written language but accents can change everything. What can sound perfectly normal in one region can be unintelligible in another.

Quote:
Communications on Earth have very limited range, but that's mostly due to the Earth itself. When you can put radio signals out in space, the range goes way, way up. Weather has very little effect on radio waves; I've used very low-power handheld devices to communicate with satellites in hailstorms with no signal degradation.


That's good. I've lost signal because the wind changed direction or a cloud flew over.

It's far more probable that your antenna leaned a different way with the wind and/or some nearby conductor or ground either started interfering destructively or stopped interfering constructively.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Again, you're arguing from a conclusion here. The Orbitals shoot everyone coming up because they see Earth as a threat. They will ignore all communications that would indicate otherwise because they see Earth as a threat. Even with the signals that they do get, decode, and view, when they see humans talking on these signals they will just ignore them, because those humans are just aliens wearing human skin suits, because Earth is a threat.

Your position requires almost all Orbitals to hold onto beliefs despite massive evidence to the contrary. I could accept this if they were portrayed as religious fanatics or suffering from some kind of collective insanity, but that's not what MiO presents.


I don't know if all Orbitals hold onto those beliefs. I do think most do. The killer satellites exist for a reason. Because things from Earth keep coming up to kill them. Otherwise why are they there? Giggles?

Pretty much, yeah. The killer satellites are there because the author says they're there, and the motives the author gives make about as much sense to me as giggles.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Again, I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I also wouldn't say that those organizations and people know about them. They might have records of them but that doesn't mean anyone's looked at said records other then Erin Tarn. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that they know they exist. After all communications were lost. If they believe them to be lost, why would they try to communicate with them?

Triax and the C.S. have both attempted to get to orbit. I find it incredulous that they wouldn't make some effort to find out what used to be up there either while they prepare such an effort or after their efforts failed. Such launches would be large-scale investments.


You said it yourself. "Such launches would be large-scale investments." They're also quite busy fighting for survival. Both the CS and Triax tried many times and failed. They've since given up and have focused on closer concerns. And if they could see the Space Stations, they'd be able to see the satellites shooting down their spacecraft. Since they don't know what causes their destruction I'd guess they can't.

Please explain how you reconcile these two statements
1. Several nations on Rifts Earth have put a lot of effort into launching major satellites because they want to get into space.
2. They had no idea what was up there despite several of them having ample historical evidence, because looking any of that up would take too much work.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
The suggestion that only Erin Tarn has ever looked at records of the Orbitals isn't credible. The fact that she's written about what used to be in widely-distributed books tells me that a great many people would be aware that the Orbitals at least used to exist.


I'm sure others have but they don't matter or we'd of heard about them. Could be an adventure hook for a game though. I'm also not sure that the numbers would be that great. How many recognized the Coalitions SAMAS PA were pre-rifts designs? Also how many books survived and how many can read them? Even if they could how many would believe it?

More likely Kevin has simply chosen to ignore outer space in the setting. Outside of MiO, the only book that involved any significant role for the Orbitals was South America 2, and CJ Carella wrote that. Aftermath touched on them in its "advancing the timeline" world update, from which RUE borrowed, but Rifts Earth could be in a dimensional pocket with a barrier between it and outer space, and it would make no difference to 99% of the setting.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Probably. Then again, would that many privates report the same thing? Or after watching private 199 be carted off, would private number 200 when asked reply, "Nothing to report, Sir! All quiet here."? And yes those groups are reaching out and forming partnerships. They can also see and verify that they're speaking with other humans. That's kind of hard to do without actually meeting. Which the orbitals and grounders aren't able to do. Do those other groups even know the orbital stations still exist? How busy are they with issues on the planet around them to look to the stars?


Privates would report the same thing because the same thing would be happening, and they wouldn't get carted off; they'd just hand the radio to their sergeants and let them hear for themselves.

You're missing the point about face-to-face meetings between humans on Earth and in orbit. Such meetings are impossible because the Orbitals themselves have made them so, and have made them so as a result of illogical and pointlessly self-destructive motives.


And the Sergeant wouldn't hear anything because he knows his job is on the line. He's say, "I didn't hear anything and neither did you, Private."
"Yes, Sergeant!"

They've made them so because no one who tried to go to Earth ever came back. They made them so because things from Earth keep trying to kill them. Again, there is a reason why the Killer Satellite Network exists.

I'm not saying that MiO gave no reason. I'm saying that the reason it gave is terrible, nonsensical, and internally inconsistent with the setting.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Even if they were looking, and trying to communicate with each other, that doesn't mean they can verify they're who they say they are. So ARCHIE 3 has a satellite. What kind is it? Where's it aimed? Would ARCHIE let anyone use it?


Your argument is that humans operate on the principle of "I cannot verify that you are who you say you are with a face-to-face meeting, so I won't talk to you." Yet the internet exists, and we are having this conversation. Your argument is invalid.


I don't think either of us has had a demon or some other monster come out of a rift and try to eat, enslave, or possess us either. So we can be reasonably sure that the person on the other end of the message is a human. At least I'm pretty sure I'm human. Would I know if I were possessed or under someone's mind control powers?

By that logic, everyone in Rifts would shoot everyone else on sight. That's not a thing in Rifts. Your argument is invalid.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And their being so far apart is a reason not to trust each other.

Languages presented in MiO are mostly the same as on Rifts Earth, so your translation argument is invalid.

Your decryption argument is also invalid. People fail at decryption sometimes, therefore there will be no meaningful communication in 300 years? Just because an individual might fail does not mean that multiple societies of people will fail for 300 years straight.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Please give me any canon reference that everyone on Rifts Earth who can use a radio is in the habit of shooting all strangers on sight.


Languages drift and accents develop which could hamper communications.

Scientists have struggled to understand languages for ages. Why should it be different in the future?

From Heros of Humanity pages 149-150. The underlined is mine.
Quote:
Those who have visited the city-state
of Northern Gun have an idea of what this is like, but Coalition
defenses and patrols border on the paranoid, and intruders are
met with immediate and unrelenting deadly force. As a rule, CS
city defenders shoot first and don't worry about asking questions
later.
If the people gunned down were innocent and happened to
have wandered into the no man's zone by accident, it is of little
consequence to the city defenders. Anyone in the defensive zone
is considered a threat and liability that is neutralized with extreme
prejudice. Again, it is that better safe than sorry policy.
This may
all sound ruthless and cold-hearted, but it has kept Coalition cities
and their citizens safe for decades.


You're taking that quote way out of context. That passage is talking about intruders inside Coalition fortified cities like Chi-Town, as in people who have used magic or something to bypass security and enter. That passage is not talking about anyone walking up to the front gate.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Are they human though? And if they are are they enslaved, possessed or willing servants?

You're going pretty deep into conspiracy theory territory here. Sure, there are people and groups who think like that, but if you want to buy into MiO, you have to say that essentially everyone thinks like that.


Not really. Again Killer Satellites. Better to kill everything leaving Earth than be sorry.

Mutants in Orbit page 61
Quote:
Note: The enemy includes anything alien, monstrous, and
supernatural, including vehicles, missiles, satellites, bots, and people
from the Coalition States and Triax, and even humans originating from
Earth.

Again, you're arguing from a conclusion. I'm saying that their approach doesn't make sense. You seem to be saying "but it does make sense, because that's their approach."

Quoting the nonsense doesn't make it valid.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Thing is the setting does seem internally consistent to me. The Rifts happen. Everyone takes damage. Communications are lost. Eventually they give up trying and concentrate on themselves. I haven't seen anything that changed that. My suggestion of the Splugorth or other group being involved, is a way to update and integrate ground and space but it'd also help explain why the orbitals keep deploying killer satellites. Something's got to be coming up to cause the orbitals problems or they'd of stopped deploying the killer satellites.

I guess we have radically different standards when it comes to internal consistency.

As for why they keep maintaining the blockade despite no-one coming up, I've got nothin'. If I were in their shoes and genuinely thought that Earth was nothing but a threat to me, I'd paste it with an asteroid and have done with it.


I guess so and Mutants in Orbit says why they they started the blockade. Maybe an updated book would tell us why they keep maintaining it.

I wouldn't drop an asteroid though. It'd be too much trouble.

Doing the mining, ore refinement, manufacturing, emplacement, command, coordination, and maintenance of hundreds of thousands of satellites is reasonable, but nudging an asteroid into a collision course with Earth is too much trouble? :lol:


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why would I read someone else's version of a space setting?

Because The Expanse is the best space-fiction setting I've ever read or watched. It gets the physics right, the factions and characters are all well-developed, understandable, and compelling, the writing is top-notch, and the production value of the show is fantastic. It's also free to watch if you have Amazon Prime.


I've never heard of it and I don't have Amazon Prime. :(

The first book is called "Leviathan Wakes," and most public libraries have it. My local library also has the series on DVD.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
My question is what causes the orbitals to keep deploying killer satellites? I don't know why they do but somethings got to bother them. To me the Splugorth using one of their slave races to launch raids to keep Earth divided makes sense but it could be something else. Maybe its ARCHIE3 but I would think he'd be more interested in exploring space than cutting it off. I really have no idea. It's one thing I hope will be answered in a new book about Rifts Space.


I guess the Archon's in South America may motivate them to step up their game; that's a genuine threat that's space-capable and gave them a helluva fight when they came down.

You'd like an update; I'd like a total retcon. Absent either, I'll keep my Rifts focus inside the atmosphere.


Exactly :) There's all kinds of reasons for the Orbitals to want to continue to keep space cut off from Earth. We just don't know what they are other than the old fears.

An update would probably include some revision. Even if it isn't I'd be happy with another Rifts Space book. And maybe it would include a breakthrough in communications. Maybe some small division of the CS or Triax is willing to try to get into space again?

The revision would have to be pretty darn drastic to get me piqued at this point. The only thing I like without reservation about MiO is the cover.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
I've never been able to listen to any FM station on an AM radio.

Do you think that people in futuristic settings whose lives depend on their ability to communicate by radio would have no more than your present-day understanding that there are two types of radio stations and a basic AM/FM radio receiver set?


The radio in my truck is AM only. I also have radios that are FM only. So how would either of them listen to the other or Short Wave or some other band?

And sure they would. Maybe. What are they broadcasting? Analog? Digital? Some thing else? Just because a signal is broadcast doesn't mean it can be listened to.

Yes, in fact, broadcasting a signal does mean that it can be listened to; that's what broadcasting is. Now, if you only want certain people to listen to it, there are steps you can take to encrypt it, but encryption can be broken. In-game, that's why Radio: Scramblers exists. This is a real-life thing; too: signals intelligence is a thing.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Presuming the signals get that far and presuming they can decode them if necessary and presuming they believe them. There's also what HWalsh said which can go for the orbitals as well.


Signals do get that far. That's the whole point of the majority of satellites we have in the sky. It doesn't take a lot of signal strength to go a long, long way when there are no objects in the way. Just about every military worth its salt puts a lot of time, effort, human capital, and money into electronic warfare and signals intelligence. This would be even more important to the Orbitals.


And yet satellites are there to extend the range of a signal. The Military and other agencies also do their best to make sure other's can't listen in and understand what they're saying. And yes trying to listen in to others. Doesn't mean they can. Especially if technology isn't compatible.

Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites are there so that you can relay signals around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.

You'd probably be amazed how often real militaries use un-encrypted communications.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Plus it would bring the Splugorth and any other space faring groups into things. There may only be 6 dragon dreadnaughts but they do have other resources plus they could always bring more in through a rift. There's also the Arkons. I don't think they'd stand for it either and it took all the orbitals to fight them off. The Orbitals couldn't fight off both groups. And there's the Naruni. And probably others. Right now, maintaining the killer satellite network is enough. It picks off the wasps that come up. Why go smacking the nest and creating an angry swarm?

Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


How much fuel would be needed to send an extinction sized asteroid earth's way? How big an engine? How many ships would be needed to deliver all that? And if the stations can be seen why wouldn't the asteroid?

If mining asteroids is a thing, crashing said asteroids into Earth is likely to take significantly less work, propellant, and hassle. You don't need a lot of ships.

As for "why wouldn't they see the asteroid," you're moving the goalposts. The premise in MiO is that folks on the ground have no idea what's up in space, and vice-versa. I'm arguing that that premise is preposterous. If you're abandoning your defense of that premise to argue that people on Earth would be able to see the Orbitals bring a big rock to collide with Earth, then you're effectively agreeing with me that the premise of MiO is nonsensical, in which case, I wholeheartedly agree!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:04 pm
  

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Borast wrote:
The orbitals want to quarantine the planet, not wipe it out.

Why, though? They see the Earth as a threat and regard anything trying to come out of it as an enemy. They have no plan or intention of lifting the blockade. A blockade is difficult and costly, far more so than dropping rocks on Earth. This is a plot hole wide enough to drop a dinosaur-killing rock through.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:45 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.


You'll have to effectively do all of that to mine asteroids for minerals, plus you have to add in braking burns to get to where the Orbitals are building their satellites, plus all the refining and manufacturing, plus accellerating away the satellites from the manufacturing site, and then braking burns to put them into orbit.


actually, for mining really you just need to find one slow enough to be worth going at. especially if it's ice mining, since you can just break small chunks off largely at random and get what you need. at most you need one that can slow it down a bit, redirection isn't needed. you seem to be imagining they're doing everything else the hard way here.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:19 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
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Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.


You'll have to effectively do all of that to mine asteroids for minerals, plus you have to add in braking burns to get to where the Orbitals are building their satellites, plus all the refining and manufacturing, plus accellerating away the satellites from the manufacturing site, and then braking burns to put them into orbit.


actually, for mining really you just need to find one slow enough to be worth going at. especially if it's ice mining, since you can just break small chunks off largely at random and get what you need. at most you need one that can slow it down a bit, redirection isn't needed. you seem to be imagining they're doing everything else the hard way here.


Please explain what constitutes an asteroid that is "slow enough." Objects far from the sun are moving plenty slow; that doesn't mean you should mine ice off Pluto.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:50 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Consider that it would take on the order of hundreds of thousands of satellites (with the ranges as written) to effectively blockade the planet. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the propulsion required to place them into orbit. Think of the maintenance. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a lot easier.


Consider how obvious redirecting a rock large enough to do what you want is. Consider the time and labor that needs to be spent locating the stone, surveying it to make sure it won't break up on impact and preparing it for redirection. Think of the materials you'd have to gather, the manufacturing, and the expense of constructing a spaceship able to push the thing into position without breaking apart. Nudging a big rock into a collision course with Earth would be a huge boondoggle that ends with the coalition firing a bunch of missiles they would make in the time it takes the asteroid to reach the planet and then forming a task force to destroy whatever is in orbit trying to pelt them with rocks.


You'll have to effectively do all of that to mine asteroids for minerals, plus you have to add in braking burns to get to where the Orbitals are building their satellites, plus all the refining and manufacturing, plus accellerating away the satellites from the manufacturing site, and then braking burns to put them into orbit.


slow enough landing on it safely doesn't require more resources than mining it will likely recover and won't take you out of range before you finish
actually, for mining really you just need to find one slow enough to be worth going at. especially if it's ice mining, since you can just break small chunks off largely at random and get what you need. at most you need one that can slow it down a bit, redirection isn't needed. you seem to be imagining they're doing everything else the hard way here.


Please explain what constitutes an asteroid that is "slow enough." Objects far from the sun are moving plenty slow; that doesn't mean you should mine ice off Pluto.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:20 am
  

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Quote:
Hotrod wrote:

True but it still takes some infrastructure.

Do you seriously think that people who are actively designing and manufacturing power armor, cyborgs, juicers, giant robots, environmental body armor, and mega damage energy weapons are going to have problems putting together and operating a radio?


Sure they have a radio but what kind of radio? Not everything broadcasts on everything. Would such an advanced society broadcast on an older platform? Would anyone living in the CS, FQ, NGR, or other advanced country know how to use a telephone? A Rotatory one? How about an old radio where you have to push a button to talk and let it go to listen? Can you go to Western Union and send a telegram? Remember Star Trek IV when Mr. Scott tried to use the computer to show transparent Aluminum?

"Hello Computer. Computer?"
"Just use the keyboard!"
"Keyboard. How quaint."

Or third new Star Trek movie where the girl has to hook up her player to the ships com system because its too retro for Scotty to do it? Or the last episode of Battlestar Galactica where they get a signal from Earth on an old outdated frequency they don't use any more on the only part of a ship that could pick it up?

Technology changes. Old TVs are useless without a converter box because they're analog and the signal is digital. Really old ones would need a an adapter on top of the converter because they don't have the single cable in but separate UHV and VHF connections. So yes it is entirely possible that different societies may not be able to communicate over a distance because their technology isn't compatible. Can they adapt? Sure. If they have a reason to. Right now I'm not sure either those on Earth or in Orbit have a reason to.





Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Considering things that come out of the rifts keep trying to kill, enslave or possess them I wouldn't say they're without evidence.

That's not what MiO says the Orbitals' probes saw. They saw some nasty conditions, assumed nothing could survive, and decided to blockade Earth indefinitely.


That's exactly what MiO says. Reread the first paragraph about The Containment of Earth page 61.
Quote:
"Horrific beings that one can only call monsters""mutants, aliens, and the last vestiges of the human race.""New menaces and monsters are regularly unleashed into the world"



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's good. I've lost signal because the wind changed direction or a cloud flew over.

It's far more probable that your antenna leaned a different way with the wind and/or some nearby conductor or ground either started interfering destructively or stopped interfering constructively.


Not really. We lost some channels when things went digital and the picture would get really pixally if not go completely out during a storm. When things were analog we only lost the channels that were far away and already staticy during big storms.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't know if all Orbitals hold onto those beliefs. I do think most do. The killer satellites exist for a reason. Because things from Earth keep coming up to kill them. Otherwise why are they there? Giggles?

Pretty much, yeah. The killer satellites are there because the author says they're there, and the motives the author gives make about as much sense to me as giggles.


I think wanting to containing monsters and other threats makes sense to me.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You said it yourself. "Such launches would be large-scale investments." They're also quite busy fighting for survival. Both the CS and Triax tried many times and failed. They've since given up and have focused on closer concerns. And if they could see the Space Stations, they'd be able to see the satellites shooting down their spacecraft. Since they don't know what causes their destruction I'd guess they can't.

Please explain how you reconcile these two statements
1. Several nations on Rifts Earth have put a lot of effort into launching major satellites because they want to get into space.
2. They had no idea what was up there despite several of them having ample historical evidence, because looking any of that up would take too much work.


1. What's to reconcile? They wanted to. They kept failing. They gave up. Now they've got other things to keep them occupied.
2. Historical evidence is just that, Historical. It is not currant evidence. They used to know what was up there. They have no idea what is up there now.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm sure others have but they don't matter or we'd of heard about them. Could be an adventure hook for a game though. I'm also not sure that the numbers would be that great. How many recognized the Coalitions SAMAS PA were pre-rifts designs? Also how many books survived and how many can read them? Even if they could how many would believe it?


More likely Kevin has simply chosen to ignore outer space in the setting. Outside of MiO, the only book that involved any significant role for the Orbitals was South America 2, and CJ Carella wrote that. Aftermath touched on them in its "advancing the timeline" world update, from which RUE borrowed, but Rifts Earth could be in a dimensional pocket with a barrier between it and outer space, and it would make no difference to 99% of the setting.


Maybe he has? Maybe it is? I don't know. Maybe someone could ask him sometime and let the rest of us know?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They've made them so because no one who tried to go to Earth ever came back. They made them so because things from Earth keep trying to kill them. Again, there is a reason why the Killer Satellite Network exists.


I'm not saying that MiO gave no reason. I'm saying that the reason it gave is terrible, nonsensical, and internally inconsistent with the setting.


How is it inconsistent? They see horrible things coming out of rifts killing people and since they can't eliminate them they move to contain them. The only difference between the orbitals and those on Earth is that the Orbitals seem to be better able to contain the monsters and that there doesn't seem to be as many places in space where the monsters can rift into.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think either of us has had a demon or some other monster come out of a rift and try to eat, enslave, or possess us either. So we can be reasonably sure that the person on the other end of the message is a human. At least I'm pretty sure I'm human. Would I know if I were possessed or under someone's mind control powers?

By that logic, everyone in Rifts would shoot everyone else on sight. That's not a thing in Rifts. Your argument is invalid.


I never said everyone. Obviously some don't automatically shoot on sight. Some turn a blind eye if they're shooting at the bigger more dangerous monster too. For all I know there are people in communications with each other. Officially though, it doesn't happen. And getting officials to change policy very difficult.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
From Heros of Humanity pages 149-150. The underlined is mine.
Quote:
Those who have visited the city-state
of Northern Gun have an idea of what this is like, but Coalition
defenses and patrols border on the paranoid, and intruders are
met with immediate and unrelenting deadly force. As a rule, CS
city defenders shoot first and don't worry about asking questions
later.
If the people gunned down were innocent and happened to
have wandered into the no man's zone by accident, it is of little
consequence to the city defenders. Anyone in the defensive zone
is considered a threat and liability that is neutralized with extreme
prejudice. Again, it is that better safe than sorry policy.
This may
all sound ruthless and cold-hearted, but it has kept Coalition cities
and their citizens safe for decades.


You're taking that quote way out of context. That passage is talking about intruders inside Coalition fortified cities like Chi-Town, as in people who have used magic or something to bypass security and enter. That passage is not talking about anyone walking up to the front gate.


I'm sure there's more. That's just the most recent place I've read it. Plus the quote doesn't say anything about inside. If they're inside they got past the defenders. Not a good thing when it comes to monsters and such that want to kill those inside.

MiO page 61
Quote:
When an alien vessel or being is discovered, they immediately attack, with hopes to destroy them or force a hasty retreat (extermination is preferred).


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Note: The enemy includes anything alien, monstrous, and
supernatural, including vehicles, missiles, satellites, bots, and people
from the Coalition States and Triax, and even humans originating from
Earth.

Again, you're arguing from a conclusion. I'm saying that their approach doesn't make sense. You seem to be saying "but it does make sense, because that's their approach."

Quoting the nonsense doesn't make it valid.


So the policy of kill first and ask questions later, maybe, is nonsense but waiting to see if the big scary thing rips your throat out does. :-?
Waiting and seeing might work for Agent J but most people open fire.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I wouldn't drop an asteroid though. It'd be too much trouble.

Doing the mining, ore refinement, manufacturing, emplacement, command, coordination, and maintenance of hundreds of thousands of satellites is reasonable, but nudging an asteroid into a collision course with Earth is too much trouble? :lol:


Weapons have a range of...? They don't need to cover every square mile. Just enough to have overlapping fire. plus they could just throw garbage out. Little bits of stuff traveling thousands of miles an hour is going to cause damage. I also think it'd be a lot more effort than just a nudge.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I've never heard of it and I don't have Amazon Prime. :(

The first book is called "Leviathan Wakes," and most public libraries have it. My local library also has the series on DVD.


Good to know. Maybe after the beer bug is over with libraries will open up again so I can check it out.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
An update would probably include some revision. Even if it isn't I'd be happy with another Rifts Space book. And maybe it would include a breakthrough in communications. Maybe some small division of the CS or Triax is willing to try to get into space again?

The revision would have to be pretty darn drastic to get me piqued at this point. The only thing I like without reservation about MiO is the cover.


The cover is pretty cool. :)


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And sure they would. Maybe. What are they broadcasting? Analog? Digital? Some thing else? Just because a signal is broadcast doesn't mean it can be listened to.


Yes, in fact, broadcasting a signal does mean that it can be listened to; that's what broadcasting is. Now, if you only want certain people to listen to it, there are steps you can take to encrypt it, but encryption can be broken. In-game, that's why Radio: Scramblers exists. This is a real-life thing; too: signals intelligence is a thing.


Not if you don't have the means to do so. Again, I can't get FM with an AM radio or AM with an FM radio or Digital channels on an Analog TV. I can't get Dish with Direct TV. And just having a skill does not mean one is capable of doing something. There's languages now that people still have not been able to translate. Even with super computers. Why should the future be different?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And yet satellites are there to extend the range of a signal. The Military and other agencies also do their best to make sure other's can't listen in and understand what they're saying. And yes trying to listen in to others. Doesn't mean they can. Especially if technology isn't compatible.


Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites are there so that you can relay signals around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.

You'd probably be amazed how often real militaries use un-encrypted communications.


:-? Why say they don't and then tell me they do?

I'm sure they do a lot. I'm also sure there's a lot of encrypted too.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How much fuel would be needed to send an extinction sized asteroid earth's way? How big an engine? How many ships would be needed to deliver all that? And if the stations can be seen why wouldn't the asteroid?

If mining asteroids is a thing, crashing said asteroids into Earth is likely to take significantly less work, propellant, and hassle. You don't need a lot of ships.


Mining can be done with one ship at the asteroid. Getting the supplies needed to put in maneuvering thrusters to move the asteroid to the Earth at killer speed? I think it'd take more than one.


Quote:
As for "why wouldn't they see the asteroid," you're moving the goalposts. The premise in MiO is that folks on the ground have no idea what's up in space, and vice-versa. I'm arguing that that premise is preposterous. If you're abandoning your defense of that premise to argue that people on Earth would be able to see the Orbitals bring a big rock to collide with Earth, then you're effectively agreeing with me that the premise of MiO is nonsensical, in which case, I wholeheartedly agree!



Those on Earth don't know what's in space. Those in space know what's on Earth. It's in the book. And your premise is that they can see each other, then those on the ground could not only see the killer satellites, and shoot them down, but they'd also see an asteroid being aimed at them.

As for those on Earth, there may be some who can see what's in space with telescopes, as well as some psychics and maybe some others. Getting others to believe them is another issue. "There's an asteroid coming that will kill all life on Earth. Okay. What's an asteroid?"


Hotrod wrote:
Borast wrote:
The orbitals want to quarantine the planet, not wipe it out.

Why, though? They see the Earth as a threat and regard anything trying to come out of it as an enemy. They have no plan or intention of lifting the blockade. A blockade is difficult and costly, far more so than dropping rocks on Earth. This is a plot hole wide enough to drop a dinosaur-killing rock through.


You need an asteroid big enough to end all life on Earth. That's pretty massive and will need a lot of resources to redirect. And it still won't stop monsters from coming out of rifts. It'd also risk throwing debris out into space where it can be a threat. So I don't see how it'd help.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:59 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Hotrod wrote:

True but it still takes some infrastructure.

Do you seriously think that people who are actively designing and manufacturing power armor, cyborgs, juicers, giant robots, environmental body armor, and mega damage energy weapons are going to have problems putting together and operating a radio?


Sure they have a radio but what kind of radio? Not everything broadcasts on everything. Would such an advanced society broadcast on an older platform? Would anyone living in the CS, FQ, NGR, or other advanced country know how to use a telephone? A Rotatory one? How about an old radio where you have to push a button to talk and let it go to listen? Can you go to Western Union and send a telegram? Remember Star Trek IV when Mr. Scott tried to use the computer to show transparent Aluminum?

"Hello Computer. Computer?"
"Just use the keyboard!"
"Keyboard. How quaint."

Or third new Star Trek movie where the girl has to hook up her player to the ships com system because its too retro for Scotty to do it? Or the last episode of Battlestar Galactica where they get a signal from Earth on an old outdated frequency they don't use any more on the only part of a ship that could pick it up?

Technology changes. Old TVs are useless without a converter box because they're analog and the signal is digital. Really old ones would need a an adapter on top of the converter because they don't have the single cable in but separate UHV and VHF connections. So yes it is entirely possible that different societies may not be able to communicate over a distance because their technology isn't compatible. Can they adapt? Sure. If they have a reason to. Right now I'm not sure either those on Earth or in Orbit have a reason to.

They would have every reason to. Both people on Earth and in Orbit are in a state of perpetual threat and conflict, and having the ability to listen in on communications is a decisive factor in any conflict.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Considering things that come out of the rifts keep trying to kill, enslave or possess them I wouldn't say they're without evidence.

That's not what MiO says the Orbitals' probes saw. They saw some nasty conditions, assumed nothing could survive, and decided to blockade Earth indefinitely.


That's exactly what MiO says. Reread the first paragraph about The Containment of Earth page 61.
Quote:
"Horrific beings that one can only call monsters""mutants, aliens, and the last vestiges of the human race.""New menaces and monsters are regularly unleashed into the world"

And on p57: "Probes sent to Earth... The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none."

Frankly, whether you interpret MiO either way, it doesn't work for me. Either they're blind to the existence of human civilization on Earth, in which case they're morons, or they've decided to screw over their own species and home planet, in which case they're awful.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's good. I've lost signal because the wind changed direction or a cloud flew over.

It's far more probable that your antenna leaned a different way with the wind and/or some nearby conductor or ground either started interfering destructively or stopped interfering constructively.


Not really. We lost some channels when things went digital and the picture would get really pixally if not go completely out during a storm. When things were analog we only lost the channels that were far away and already staticy during big storms.

Note the added bit on a conductor nearby. Storms interfere with radio signals because of lightning, not because of clouds. Lightning is electrical movement along corridors of conductivity in the air.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't know if all Orbitals hold onto those beliefs. I do think most do. The killer satellites exist for a reason. Because things from Earth keep coming up to kill them. Otherwise why are they there? Giggles?

Pretty much, yeah. The killer satellites are there because the author says they're there, and the motives the author gives make about as much sense to me as giggles.


I think wanting to containing monsters and other threats makes sense to me.

Me too! If they want to blockade Atlantis, the Archons, and some other invaders, that makes plenty of sense. Including all humans on Earth in that blockade doesn't.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You said it yourself. "Such launches would be large-scale investments." They're also quite busy fighting for survival. Both the CS and Triax tried many times and failed. They've since given up and have focused on closer concerns. And if they could see the Space Stations, they'd be able to see the satellites shooting down their spacecraft. Since they don't know what causes their destruction I'd guess they can't.

Please explain how you reconcile these two statements
1. Several nations on Rifts Earth have put a lot of effort into launching major satellites because they want to get into space.
2. They had no idea what was up there despite several of them having ample historical evidence, because looking any of that up would take too much work.


1. What's to reconcile? They wanted to. They kept failing. They gave up. Now they've got other things to keep them occupied.
2. Historical evidence is just that, Historical. It is not currant evidence. They used to know what was up there. They have no idea what is up there now.
You're shifting goalposts here. You stated that the nations who want to go to space would be too busy fighting for survival to look up basics on history. Now you're saying that these nations all think history has nothing to do with the present.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They've made them so because no one who tried to go to Earth ever came back. They made them so because things from Earth keep trying to kill them. Again, there is a reason why the Killer Satellite Network exists.


I'm not saying that MiO gave no reason. I'm saying that the reason it gave is terrible, nonsensical, and internally inconsistent with the setting.


How is it inconsistent? They see horrible things coming out of rifts killing people and since they can't eliminate them they move to contain them. The only difference between the orbitals and those on Earth is that the Orbitals seem to be better able to contain the monsters and that there doesn't seem to be as many places in space where the monsters can rift into.

No nation on Earth shoots everyone else on sight. 'That's not "monster containment." It's a perpetual act of war upon their own home planet, a home planet where the only powers we know of who have tried to get into orbit are humans.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't think either of us has had a demon or some other monster come out of a rift and try to eat, enslave, or possess us either. So we can be reasonably sure that the person on the other end of the message is a human. At least I'm pretty sure I'm human. Would I know if I were possessed or under someone's mind control powers?

By that logic, everyone in Rifts would shoot everyone else on sight. That's not a thing in Rifts. Your argument is invalid.


I never said everyone. Obviously some don't automatically shoot on sight. Some turn a blind eye if they're shooting at the bigger more dangerous monster too. For all I know there are people in communications with each other. Officially though, it doesn't happen. And getting officials to change policy very difficult.

Getting them to enact this insane policy in the first place should have been impossible. How exactly did that multinational summit go? "Hey, screw our homeworld! Let's dedicate nearly all our resources to maintaining the debris field and hundreds of thousands of killer satellites that shoot down any of those peons who decide to come join us, even if they have things we desperately need like air, water, and materials! All in favor?"

I get this vibe in MiO that this policy was unanimously adopted as the obvious and logical solution. It strikes me as something that you'd get out of a HAL-9000 computer that's gone bonkers.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
From Heros of Humanity pages 149-150. The underlined is mine.
Quote:
Those who have visited the city-state
of Northern Gun have an idea of what this is like, but Coalition
defenses and patrols border on the paranoid, and intruders are
met with immediate and unrelenting deadly force. As a rule, CS
city defenders shoot first and don't worry about asking questions
later.
If the people gunned down were innocent and happened to
have wandered into the no man's zone by accident, it is of little
consequence to the city defenders. Anyone in the defensive zone
is considered a threat and liability that is neutralized with extreme
prejudice. Again, it is that better safe than sorry policy.
This may
all sound ruthless and cold-hearted, but it has kept Coalition cities
and their citizens safe for decades.


You're taking that quote way out of context. That passage is talking about intruders inside Coalition fortified cities like Chi-Town, as in people who have used magic or something to bypass security and enter. That passage is not talking about anyone walking up to the front gate.


I'm sure there's more. That's just the most recent place I've read it. Plus the quote doesn't say anything about inside. If they're inside they got past the defenders. Not a good thing when it comes to monsters and such that want to kill those inside.

MiO page 61
Quote:
When an alien vessel or being is discovered, they immediately attack, with hopes to destroy them or force a hasty retreat (extermination is preferred).

There is more; that's my whole point! Read the whole paragraph you're quoting from Heroes of Humanity. Read all of page 149 and page 150. It's all focused on Coalition fortress cities and how they're designed to prevent infiltration. Did you just do a CTRL-F in a PDF of a Rifts book that focuses on the Coalition, search for "shoot first," and then copy and paste from a PDF?

Please, though, keep on looking. I'd like to see a single quote anywhere outside of MiO describing a Rifts Earth culture that shoots everyone else on sight without warning.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Note: The enemy includes anything alien, monstrous, and
supernatural, including vehicles, missiles, satellites, bots, and people
from the Coalition States and Triax, and even humans originating from
Earth.

Again, you're arguing from a conclusion. I'm saying that their approach doesn't make sense. You seem to be saying "but it does make sense, because that's their approach."

Quoting the nonsense doesn't make it valid.


So the policy of kill first and ask questions later, maybe, is nonsense but waiting to see if the big scary thing rips your throat out does. :-?
Waiting and seeing might work for Agent J but most people open fire.


Shooting everyone you meet is bad, mmkay? If we can't agree on this then we don't have a basis for rational discussion.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I wouldn't drop an asteroid though. It'd be too much trouble.

Doing the mining, ore refinement, manufacturing, emplacement, command, coordination, and maintenance of hundreds of thousands of satellites is reasonable, but nudging an asteroid into a collision course with Earth is too much trouble? :lol:


Weapons have a range of...? They don't need to cover every square mile. Just enough to have overlapping fire. plus they could just throw garbage out. Little bits of stuff traveling thousands of miles an hour is going to cause damage. I also think it'd be a lot more effort than just a nudge.

The ranges are provided in MiO, and they're laughably short. 12,000 feet (2 miles) for a particle beam, 60,000 feet (10 miles) for a single-shot old x-ray laser, 2-3 miles for other laser and rail gun satellites, 2 miles for kinetic kill and brilliant pebbles satellites.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I've never heard of it and I don't have Amazon Prime. :(

The first book is called "Leviathan Wakes," and most public libraries have it. My local library also has the series on DVD.


Good to know. Maybe after the beer bug is over with libraries will open up again so I can check it out.

It's also available on Kindle, and a lot of libraries have a kindle lending program.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
An update would probably include some revision. Even if it isn't I'd be happy with another Rifts Space book. And maybe it would include a breakthrough in communications. Maybe some small division of the CS or Triax is willing to try to get into space again?

The revision would have to be pretty darn drastic to get me piqued at this point. The only thing I like without reservation about MiO is the cover.


The cover is pretty cool. :)

To be fair, there is some nice-looking interior art, but the good stuff seems more like some Kittani creation cut from Atlantis than anything else, which is another symptom of the book's biggest problem from a production perspective: it lacks coherence and focus, largely due to its dual-setting approach.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And sure they would. Maybe. What are they broadcasting? Analog? Digital? Some thing else? Just because a signal is broadcast doesn't mean it can be listened to.


Yes, in fact, broadcasting a signal does mean that it can be listened to; that's what broadcasting is. Now, if you only want certain people to listen to it, there are steps you can take to encrypt it, but encryption can be broken. In-game, that's why Radio: Scramblers exists. This is a real-life thing; too: signals intelligence is a thing.


Not if you don't have the means to do so. Again, I can't get FM with an AM radio or AM with an FM radio or Digital channels on an Analog TV. I can't get Dish with Direct TV. And just having a skill does not mean one is capable of doing something. There's languages now that people still have not been able to translate. Even with super computers. Why should the future be different?

Heck, you're not even describing the present. People can and do hack into Dish, Direct TV, XM satellite radio, and just about every kind of broadcast out there, and they especially do this with potential adversaries. Just because this is beyond you doesn't mean it isn't a thing.

As for the languages, we've covered this. The languages presented in MiO are much the same as in Rifts Earth. Your assertions to the contrary would help your position that the setting described in the book makes sense, but they require you to change the setting described in the book.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And yet satellites are there to extend the range of a signal. The Military and other agencies also do their best to make sure other's can't listen in and understand what they're saying. And yes trying to listen in to others. Doesn't mean they can. Especially if technology isn't compatible.


Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites are there so that you can relay signals around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.

You'd probably be amazed how often real militaries use un-encrypted communications.


:-? Why say they don't and then tell me they do?

I'm sure they do a lot. I'm also sure there's a lot of encrypted too.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The curvature of Earth prevents us from broadcasting line-of-sight past 30 miles or so. If you put your transmitter in a tower, your signal will reach farther. Satellites do the same thing, but from much higher up.

When you are communicating between points that are already way up in space, you don't have to worry so much about the Earth getting in the way. Those same transmissions that can only go 30 miles or so on Earth go up a lot farther into space.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How much fuel would be needed to send an extinction sized asteroid earth's way? How big an engine? How many ships would be needed to deliver all that? And if the stations can be seen why wouldn't the asteroid?

If mining asteroids is a thing, crashing said asteroids into Earth is likely to take significantly less work, propellant, and hassle. You don't need a lot of ships.


Mining can be done with one ship at the asteroid. Getting the supplies needed to put in maneuvering thrusters to move the asteroid to the Earth at killer speed? I think it'd take more than one.

That depends on the type of thruster you use. You can get a lot of velocity built up over several years using an ion engine. You could also use gravity off another large planetary mass to boost your speed without using a thruster at all.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
As for "why wouldn't they see the asteroid," you're moving the goalposts. The premise in MiO is that folks on the ground have no idea what's up in space, and vice-versa. I'm arguing that that premise is preposterous. If you're abandoning your defense of that premise to argue that people on Earth would be able to see the Orbitals bring a big rock to collide with Earth, then you're effectively agreeing with me that the premise of MiO is nonsensical, in which case, I wholeheartedly agree!



Those on Earth don't know what's in space. Those in space know what's on Earth. It's in the book. And your premise is that they can see each other, then those on the ground could not only see the killer satellites, and shoot them down, but they'd also see an asteroid being aimed at them.

As for those on Earth, there may be some who can see what's in space with telescopes, as well as some psychics and maybe some others. Getting others to believe them is another issue. "There's an asteroid coming that will kill all life on Earth. Okay. What's an asteroid?"

My point that people in orbit and on Earth can see and signal each other is backed up by the ARCHIE-3 satellite being a thing, as well as the fact that the probes the Orbitals have sent to Earth sent back any data at all.

Seeing asteroids coming in from deep space is a lot harder than looking for stuff that's in orbit. We never saw the Chelyabinsk meteor coming in 2013, and that sucker could have pasted a city.


Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Borast wrote:
The orbitals want to quarantine the planet, not wipe it out.

Why, though? They see the Earth as a threat and regard anything trying to come out of it as an enemy. They have no plan or intention of lifting the blockade. A blockade is difficult and costly, far more so than dropping rocks on Earth. This is a plot hole wide enough to drop a dinosaur-killing rock through.


You need an asteroid big enough to end all life on Earth. That's pretty massive and will need a lot of resources to redirect. And it still won't stop monsters from coming out of rifts. It'd also risk throwing debris out into space where it can be a threat. So I don't see how it'd help.


True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network. True, it wouldn't stop monsters from coming out of the Rifts, though it's a tiny fraction of those monsters who are capable of making orbit. True, it would throw a lot of debris up, but it couldn't do so in a way that would put that debris into orbit; you need too much lateral velocity. Thus any debris that goes up would just come back down (unless it achieved escape velocity, in which case it would just fly out into the big empty).

In effect, it would destroy the capabilities of pretty much everyone on Earth from coming up into orbit for a long, long time and render the planet effectively uninhabitable for most living creatures.

Understand, I'm not saying that this is what Kevin should do with the setting; it's just a thought experiment that points out the ludicrous logic of MiO and the Orbital's blockade.

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Last edited by Hotrod on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:26 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1247
Sambot its pretty obvious that you don't understand the technologies you are citing for radio and satellite. note this is not intended as an attack, just an observation, but you are trying to claim things that are not correct based on that lack of understanding.

I am going to try to explain it again in a simple way so that it makes sense.

AM radios, use a base signal that is what you tune the radio to, ~500 to ~1600 k hertz (thats 500khz to 1600khz or about 1.6mhz at the top end. ) with a 10kz bandwidh for each channel so when you superimpose the signal on the carrier, the waveform distorts because the amplitude is being messed with (think volume) and the am transmitter encodes the signal a specific way and the AM recievers know how to seperate the carrier wave from the signal and play back the signal.

a FM uses a completely different method of encoding the signal on the carrier wave. the amplitude doesn't change, but the frequency does so the amplitude (heigth ) of the FM radio signal doesn't change, but the frequency IE the wavelength DOES change so the FM bands are "wider" (200khz per band, from 88.1 mhz to 108.1 mhz ) so the transmitter is broadcasting on 97.1 mhz (for example) and as the signal is imposed on it, the signal will add and subtract the signal so the 97.1 mhz signal will stay between ~97.0 mhz and 97.2 mhz likely a lot less which is also why you sometimes get other signals IE things going out of range or you are picking up a different radio station on the same base frequency (or harmonic of it) that is stronger than the signal you are trying to listen to.

there are more modern encoding methods used by digital devices that use other methods of encoding a digital signal on the carrier, such as frequency shift Keying, and other ways where the signal is expected to do a certain thing, but does something different based on the encoding/decoding method.

the issue you are describing with the satellite tv is a completely different issue, but what it boils down to is digital transmissions are either all or nothing for each unit of data, the pixilated screen you are describing is when the signal ratio falls below the minimum for the device to reconstruct it successfully,

encryption is at its simplest a method for obscuring the "real" signal with other things that either don't make sense, or with more advanced versions hiding the message in another message that seems to say something completely different.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:52 am
  

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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 525
Location: a west coast
Hotrod wrote:
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network-


i'm really gonna need to hear your reasoning there, especially considering the killer satellite network can be recycled, double as a communications network, be built into the satellites they're living in and provide rest stops for orbital travel while smashing the planet with a rock requires you to expend almost all those resources every time to get a new rock.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:00 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network-


i'm really gonna need to hear your reasoning there, especially considering the killer satellite network can be recycled, double as a communications network, be built into the satellites they're living in and provide rest stops for orbital travel while smashing the planet with a rock requires you to expend almost all those resources every time to get a new rock.


Sure!

Let's start by some back-of-the-envelope first-order approximations for finding out how many satellites you need. Look at the range of the killer satellites. Most of them have a range of 6,000 ft, and 3x that in space. That's about 3.4 miles. Pi times that range squared is the area a single satellite can cover: about 36.5 square miles.The surface area of the Earth is 197 million square miles according to the Earth Wiki article.
Now divide the surface area of the Earth by that single killer satellite coverage area to get what you'd need to effectively cover the surface area of the world.

Bottom line: You need ~5.4 million killer satellites. That's 18 satellites for each of the 300,000 Orbitals out there, and many of those satellites have limited ammunition. This is also setting aside the logistical challenge of moving ammunition/maintenance parts out to those 5.4 million satellites, as well as the fact that these satellites would be covering a wider area than the surface, because they'd be in orbit.

I'll freely acknowledge that I'm hand-waving a LOT of additional complicating factors, some of which might reduce the satellites needed, and some of which might increase it. Numbers in MiO are problematic in lots of ways. This is a rough order-of-magnitude approximation.

Let's say that each killer satellite has a mass of 100 kg. That's 540,000 metric tons of refined, shaped, and manufactured materials. Placing those satellites requires two accelerations per finished satellite: one to get it into the right place, and one to get its orbital velocity right. Then we have to consider where and how these satellites are manufactured: does each orbital station create all the systems required from scratch from materials on hand? If not, add in two more burns for each subassembly. Then we have to consider the raw materials themselves. Do they come from the Moon? If so, you need to come up the moon's gravity well, which is going to require a couple more burns. If not, then you'll have to mine asteroids, which requires four burns (two to get to and match velocities with the asteroid, two more to get to the refinery/factory station).

Lots of these satellites are single-shot or have limited ammunition. They'd have to be resupplied or replaced. Resupply requires a resupply ship doing at least two burns per satellite. Replacement requires all the stuff above.

By comparison, if you want to splat Earth properly, you need a big ol' rock. You'd want to choose one carefully, going for high density. Then you need a big ol' ion thruster, plenty of reaction mass, and some basic telemetry. The process would be far less complex. The delta-V required to nudge such a rock into a collision course is difficult to estimate, but if you're already mining asteroids, it shouldn't be crazy unreasonable. I should probably look around the interwebs to see if there's some asteroid collision calculator to get an idea of what would need to be involved.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:36 pm
  

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....you just kinda waved off the problems with your own plan entirely and assumed that by leaving the numbers out it'd make your idea look better. show me the mass of this "big ol' rock" and the cost of the engine and mass it'd need.

because the size of asteroids capable of doing that tend to be staggeringly massive, to the tune of over 25 trillion tons, so any engine suitable for even minor course changes would have to be gigantic.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:49 pm
  

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
The mass ratio in the delta-v equation says that as its value approaches 1, its natural log approaches 0. That's why anything man-man is unfeasible for steering asteroids in a reasonable amount of time. Water can bend oaks, but not without enough pressure and time.

To say nothing of the energy necessary to halt an asteroid's rotation. The one creative idea to get around the unfeasibility of strapping a rocket to an asteroid that I've seen, the gravity tractor, came with the qualification that it probably won't work with an Earth-threatening asteroid.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:47 pm
  

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Yep, I’m totally swagging here on the asteroid and counting on orbitals’ thrusters being crazy efficient, a la The Expanse.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:50 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
We're not talking stuff five miles up, we're talking stuff 70+ miles up. Or further. Which in a lot of cases, is out of contact range for Rifts Earth gear.
Wait how is 70+ miles out of range or rifts communication gear. Mobile radio communication devices have 500 miles range on rifts earth.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:58 am
  

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Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
Technology changes. Old TVs are useless without a converter box because they're analog and the signal is digital. Really old ones would need a an adapter on top of the converter because they don't have the single cable in but separate UHV and VHF connections. So yes it is entirely possible that different societies may not be able to communicate over a distance because their technology isn't compatible. Can they adapt? Sure. If they have a reason to. Right now I'm not sure either those on Earth or in Orbit have a reason to.

They would have every reason to. Both people on Earth and in Orbit are in a state of perpetual threat and conflict, and having the ability to listen in on communications is a decisive factor in any conflict.


You'd think so but then again Things keep trying to enslave or eat them. As far as they're concerned there's no one to talk to. Maybe that'll change? Maybe it won't. But as of the date in MiO they weren't ready to change.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:

And on p57: "Probes sent to Earth... The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none."

Frankly, whether you interpret MiO either way, it doesn't work for me. Either they're blind to the existence of human civilization on Earth, in which case they're morons, or they've decided to screw over their own species and home planet, in which case they're awful.


You make it sound as if they were looking down from a space station right now and seeing all the city lights. That wasn't the case. Reread the entire paragraph again. That took place shortly after the Rifts started and Earth was still tearing itself apart. They weren't finding cities. They were finding deadly problems. And those who tried to live on Earth died. As far as those in orbit were concerned Earth was denied to them so they focused on making space their home. If things were a nice as it seems you think it should be there wouldn't be a Coalition States as the Rifts would be like a tropical storm instead of nearly an extinction level event.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not really. We lost some channels when things went digital and the picture would get really pixally if not go completely out during a storm. When things were analog we only lost the channels that were far away and already staticy during big storms.

Note the added bit on a conductor nearby. Storms interfere with radio signals because of lightning, not because of clouds. Lightning is electrical movement along corridors of conductivity in the air.


I won't say there wasn't any lightning cause its sneaky but I don't remember any. Sometimes just a cloudy day knocked out channels.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I think wanting to containing monsters and other threats makes sense to me.

Me too! If they want to blockade Atlantis, the Archons, and some other invaders, that makes plenty of sense. Including all humans on Earth in that blockade doesn't.


And how many humans are in Atlantis? How do you tell a good human from an evil or possessed human?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
1. What's to reconcile? They wanted to. They kept failing. They gave up. Now they've got other things to keep them occupied.
2. Historical evidence is just that, Historical. It is not currant evidence. They used to know what was up there. They have no idea what is up there now.
You're shifting goalposts here. You stated that the nations who want to go to space would be too busy fighting for survival to look up basics on history. Now you're saying that these nations all think history has nothing to do with the present.


No goal posts moved. Just because something was there does not mean that it is there or that it can be contacted. It's like saying a ship that was in Pearl Harbor in 1941 is still in Pear Harbor. It could be. It could also be sunk in Pear Harbor, or sailed out to see and sunk or scrapped or just moved to a new port a long time ago.

Also the nations of Earth who've tried to go to space are quite busy fighting for their lives. Look at all the CS is having to contract out and all the blind eyes they've been turning. Because they're stretched too thin to worry about space right now.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How is it inconsistent? They see horrible things coming out of rifts killing people and since they can't eliminate them they move to contain them. The only difference between the orbitals and those on Earth is that the Orbitals seem to be better able to contain the monsters and that there doesn't seem to be as many places in space where the monsters can rift into.

No nation on Earth shoots everyone else on sight. 'That's not "monster containment." It's a perpetual act of war upon their own home planet, a home planet where the only powers we know of who have tried to get into orbit are humans.


The Coalition Stats do. As far as knowing who'd tried to get into orbit, we know humans have tried, we don't know if anyone else has or not. We do know that there are space capable powers on earth. The Splugorth and Naruni has star empires, so they clearly have the capability. Whether they have or not at Earth, we don't know.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I never said everyone. Obviously some don't automatically shoot on sight. Some turn a blind eye if they're shooting at the bigger more dangerous monster too. For all I know there are people in communications with each other. Officially though, it doesn't happen. And getting officials to change policy very difficult.

Getting them to enact this insane policy in the first place should have been impossible. How exactly did that multinational summit go? "Hey, screw our homeworld! Let's dedicate nearly all our resources to maintaining the debris field and hundreds of thousands of killer satellites that shoot down any of those peons who decide to come join us, even if they have things we desperately need like air, water, and materials! All in favor?"

I get this vibe in MiO that this policy was unanimously adopted as the obvious and logical solution. It strikes me as something that you'd get out of a HAL-9000 computer that's gone bonkers.


I imagine it was quite easy considering what happened. Even if they could communicate it isn't like they could do anything. Aircraft were grounded. Spacecraft certainly would be as well.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm sure there's more. That's just the most recent place I've read it. Plus the quote doesn't say anything about inside. If they're inside they got past the defenders. Not a good thing when it comes to monsters and such that want to kill those inside.

MiO page 61
Quote:
When an alien vessel or being is discovered, they immediately attack, with hopes to destroy them or force a hasty retreat (extermination is preferred).

There is more; that's my whole point! Read the whole paragraph you're quoting from Heroes of Humanity. Read all of page 149 and page 150. It's all focused on Coalition fortress cities and how they're designed to prevent infiltration. Did you just do a CTRL-F in a PDF of a Rifts book that focuses on the Coalition, search for "shoot first," and then copy and paste from a PDF?

Please, though, keep on looking. I'd like to see a single quote anywhere outside of MiO describing a Rifts Earth culture that shoots everyone else on sight without warning.


page 11
Quote:
The unlucky ones are attacked, tarred and feathered, chained
and dragged across the ground by vehicles, or hauled out i nto
the street where they are severely beaten or killed.

page 12.
Quote:
Practitioners of magic caught trying to stop the violence or douse
the fires via magic are killed on the spot.

again page 12
Quote:
You come across a group of D-Bee mercenaries, you waste them. A
village of nonhumans, vaporize them all. A magic device, destroy
it. If they aren't human, wipe them out.

Quote:
If it 's not human, kill it.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So the policy of kill first and ask questions later, maybe, is nonsense but waiting to see if the big scary thing rips your throat out does. :-?
Waiting and seeing might work for Agent J but most people open fire.


Shooting everyone you meet is bad, mmkay? If we can't agree on this then we don't have a basis for rational discussion.


page 12 again
Quote:
Generations of Coalition soldiers and citizens have been brainwashed into completely accepting this, so it is easy to accept the demonized version of reality and act accordingly in ruthless fashion. If it 's not human, kill it.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Weapons have a range of...? They don't need to cover every square mile. Just enough to have overlapping fire. plus they could just throw garbage out. Little bits of stuff traveling thousands of miles an hour is going to cause damage. I also think it'd be a lot more effort than just a nudge.

The ranges are provided in MiO, and they're laughably short. 12,000 feet (2 miles) for a particle beam, 60,000 feet (10 miles) for a single-shot old x-ray laser, 2-3 miles for other laser and rail gun satellites, 2 miles for kinetic kill and brilliant pebbles satellites.


Long Range Missiles have a range of 500-1200 miles.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Good to know. Maybe after the beer bug is over with libraries will open up again so I can check it out.

It's also available on Kindle, and a lot of libraries have a kindle lending program.

Again, good to know but I need an open library.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The cover is pretty cool. :)

To be fair, there is some nice-looking interior art, but the good stuff seems more like some Kittani creation cut from Atlantis than anything else, which is another symptom of the book's biggest problem from a production perspective: it lacks coherence and focus, largely due to its dual-setting approach.


:-? I never thought of any of the art as being Kittani. Although thinking about it I could see some of the CAAN stuff maybe. I do agree with the lack of coherence and focus do to the dual setting. I'd love for the AtB and Rifts sections to be split off into their own books.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not if you don't have the means to do so. Again, I can't get FM with an AM radio or AM with an FM radio or Digital channels on an Analog TV. I can't get Dish with Direct TV. And just having a skill does not mean one is capable of doing something. There's languages now that people still have not been able to translate. Even with super computers. Why should the future be different?

Heck, you're not even describing the present. People can and do hack into Dish, Direct TV, XM satellite radio, and just about every kind of broadcast out there, and they especially do this with potential adversaries. Just because this is beyond you doesn't mean it isn't a thing.

As for the languages, we've covered this. The languages presented in MiO are much the same as in Rifts Earth. Your assertions to the contrary would help your position that the setting described in the book makes sense, but they require you to change the setting described in the book.


That can be good or bad. But they're also things people are using now. They may not be using them 300 years from now.

As for language, written might be very similar, spoken is an other question entirely. Language can change a lot in 300 years. Just because they may speak the same language does not mean they can understand each other.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
:-? Why say they don't and then tell me they do?

I'm sure they do a lot. I'm also sure there's a lot of encrypted too.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The curvature of Earth prevents us from broadcasting line-of-sight past 30 miles or so. If you put your transmitter in a tower, your signal will reach farther. Satellites do the same thing, but from much higher up.

When you are communicating between points that are already way up in space, you don't have to worry so much about the Earth getting in the way. Those same transmissions that can only go 30 miles or so on Earth go up a lot farther into space.


You said that satellited don't extend the range of a signal and then said they do. As for how far they go on Earth, that'd vary with the transmitter and receiver,antenna. They could easily be a couple hundred miles.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Mining can be done with one ship at the asteroid. Getting the supplies needed to put in maneuvering thrusters to move the asteroid to the Earth at killer speed? I think it'd take more than one.

That depends on the type of thruster you use. You can get a lot of velocity built up over several years using an ion engine. You could also use gravity off another large planetary mass to boost your speed without using a thruster at all.


That would work. Of course by the time the asteroid hit the earth they'd of been dead for many years so why care if it hits or not?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
My point that people in orbit and on Earth can see and signal each other is backed up by the ARCHIE-3 satellite being a thing, as well as the fact that the probes the Orbitals have sent to Earth sent back any data at all.

Seeing asteroids coming in from deep space is a lot harder than looking for stuff that's in orbit. We never saw the Chelyabinsk meteor coming in 2013, and that sucker could have pasted a city.


Did ARCHIE see the satellite, hear the satellite, or have records of the satellite and decided to take it over for fun? I also wouldn't count the probes sent to earth since they were destroyed.

We can see big stations but not a big asteroid? With far fewer people looking in space? :-?



Quote:
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network. True, it wouldn't stop monsters from coming out of the Rifts, though it's a tiny fraction of those monsters who are capable of making orbit. True, it would throw a lot of debris up, but it couldn't do so in a way that would put that debris into orbit; you need too much lateral velocity. Thus any debris that goes up would just come back down (unless it achieved escape velocity, in which case it would just fly out into the big empty).

In effect, it would destroy the capabilities of pretty much everyone on Earth from coming up into orbit for a long, long time and render the planet effectively uninhabitable for most living creatures.

Understand, I'm not saying that this is what Kevin should do with the setting; it's just a thought experiment that points out the ludicrous logic of MiO and the Orbital's blockade.


MiO page 61
Quote:
Unless of course things can rift directly into space. Which they can.
The location of the graveyard is a ley line nexus, allowing things
to rift in on a regular basis. Cyberworks and Yuro realize this and
have launched a number of killer satellites into this dead zone to
destroy anything they encounter, adding to the deadliness of the area.


Also destroying the planet could be bad for the stations.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:09 am
  

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guardiandashi wrote:
Sambot its pretty obvious that you don't understand the technologies you are citing for radio and satellite. note this is not intended as an attack, just an observation, but you are trying to claim things that are not correct based on that lack of understanding.

I am going to try to explain it again in a simple way so that it makes sense.

AM radios, use a base signal that is what you tune the radio to, ~500 to ~1600 k hertz (thats 500khz to 1600khz or about 1.6mhz at the top end. ) with a 10kz bandwidh for each channel so when you superimpose the signal on the carrier, the waveform distorts because the amplitude is being messed with (think volume) and the am transmitter encodes the signal a specific way and the AM recievers know how to seperate the carrier wave from the signal and play back the signal.

a FM uses a completely different method of encoding the signal on the carrier wave. the amplitude doesn't change, but the frequency does so the amplitude (heigth ) of the FM radio signal doesn't change, but the frequency IE the wavelength DOES change so the FM bands are "wider" (200khz per band, from 88.1 mhz to 108.1 mhz ) so the transmitter is broadcasting on 97.1 mhz (for example) and as the signal is imposed on it, the signal will add and subtract the signal so the 97.1 mhz signal will stay between ~97.0 mhz and 97.2 mhz likely a lot less which is also why you sometimes get other signals IE things going out of range or you are picking up a different radio station on the same base frequency (or harmonic of it) that is stronger than the signal you are trying to listen to.

there are more modern encoding methods used by digital devices that use other methods of encoding a digital signal on the carrier, such as frequency shift Keying, and other ways where the signal is expected to do a certain thing, but does something different based on the encoding/decoding method.

the issue you are describing with the satellite tv is a completely different issue, but what it boils down to is digital transmissions are either all or nothing for each unit of data, the pixilated screen you are describing is when the signal ratio falls below the minimum for the device to reconstruct it successfully,

encryption is at its simplest a method for obscuring the "real" signal with other things that either don't make sense, or with more advanced versions hiding the message in another message that seems to say something completely different.



Thank you for the information but you missed my point. A signal broadcast may not work because because the receiver isn't compatible.


As for pixilation, I know with analog signals some stations were crystal clear and others were fuzy. With digital channels were constantly pixilating and others were just gone.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:27 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
Technology changes. Old TVs are useless without a converter box because they're analog and the signal is digital. Really old ones would need a an adapter on top of the converter because they don't have the single cable in but separate UHV and VHF connections. So yes it is entirely possible that different societies may not be able to communicate over a distance because their technology isn't compatible. Can they adapt? Sure. If they have a reason to. Right now I'm not sure either those on Earth or in Orbit have a reason to.

They would have every reason to. Both people on Earth and in Orbit are in a state of perpetual threat and conflict, and having the ability to listen in on communications is a decisive factor in any conflict.


You'd think so but then again Things keep trying to enslave or eat them. As far as they're concerned there's no one to talk to. Maybe that'll change? Maybe it won't. But as of the date in MiO they weren't ready to change.

There are many people to talk to. People on Earth use their radios to talk with other people on Earth. People in Orbit use their radios to talk with other people in Orbit.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:

And on p57: "Probes sent to Earth... The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none."

Frankly, whether you interpret MiO either way, it doesn't work for me. Either they're blind to the existence of human civilization on Earth, in which case they're morons, or they've decided to screw over their own species and home planet, in which case they're awful.


You make it sound as if they were looking down from a space station right now and seeing all the city lights. That wasn't the case. Reread the entire paragraph again. That took place shortly after the Rifts started and Earth was still tearing itself apart. They weren't finding cities. They were finding deadly problems. And those who tried to live on Earth died. As far as those in orbit were concerned Earth was denied to them so they focused on making space their home. If things were a nice as it seems you think it should be there wouldn't be a Coalition States as the Rifts would be like a tropical storm instead of nearly an extinction level event.

Holy strawman argument, Batman!

In the setting right now, yes, there are city lights down below that the Orbitals could look down an see. Right after the Coming of the Rifts, there weren't (and Chaos Earth does a good job of explaining this, actually). The Orbitals' decision in the context of the Chaos Earth setting makes some sense. Their decision in the context of the current setting doesn't.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not really. We lost some channels when things went digital and the picture would get really pixally if not go completely out during a storm. When things were analog we only lost the channels that were far away and already staticy during big storms.

Note the added bit on a conductor nearby. Storms interfere with radio signals because of lightning, not because of clouds. Lightning is electrical movement along corridors of conductivity in the air.


I won't say there wasn't any lightning cause its sneaky but I don't remember any. Sometimes just a cloudy day knocked out channels.

That's not impossible; it depends on the radio frequencies you're using. You mentioned storm clouds in a previous post, which is why I gravitated towards lightning as a more likely culprit.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I think wanting to containing monsters and other threats makes sense to me.

Me too! If they want to blockade Atlantis, the Archons, and some other invaders, that makes plenty of sense. Including all humans on Earth in that blockade doesn't.


And how many humans are in Atlantis? How do you tell a good human from an evil or possessed human?

You don't. You make a reasonable risk decision based on the information you can gather. Shooting everyone coming up Earth's gravity well isn't reasonable. Shooting up everyone coming up out of Atlantis, Archon territory, and some other select spots is somewhat more reasonable.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
1. What's to reconcile? They wanted to. They kept failing. They gave up. Now they've got other things to keep them occupied.
2. Historical evidence is just that, Historical. It is not currant evidence. They used to know what was up there. They have no idea what is up there now.
You're shifting goalposts here. You stated that the nations who want to go to space would be too busy fighting for survival to look up basics on history. Now you're saying that these nations all think history has nothing to do with the present.


No goal posts moved. Just because something was there does not mean that it is there or that it can be contacted. It's like saying a ship that was in Pearl Harbor in 1941 is still in Pear Harbor. It could be. It could also be sunk in Pear Harbor, or sailed out to see and sunk or scrapped or just moved to a new port a long time ago.

Also the nations of Earth who've tried to go to space are quite busy fighting for their lives. Look at all the CS is having to contract out and all the blind eyes they've been turning. Because they're stretched too thin to worry about space right now.

No, it's like saying that Pearl Harbor was populated by human beings who spoke English in 1941, and therefore it still might be. Or that the U.S. Navy used Pearl Harbor in 1941, and therefore some version of the U.S. Navy still might.

The "fighting for their lives, therefore too busy to look up basic history and try to communicate with the Orbitals" argument is highly variable and situational. In the context of the Minion War, I can buy that. I can't buy that all of humanity is in that kind of state continually for 300 years.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How is it inconsistent? They see horrible things coming out of rifts killing people and since they can't eliminate them they move to contain them. The only difference between the orbitals and those on Earth is that the Orbitals seem to be better able to contain the monsters and that there doesn't seem to be as many places in space where the monsters can rift into.

No nation on Earth shoots everyone else on sight. 'That's not "monster containment." It's a perpetual act of war upon their own home planet, a home planet where the only powers we know of who have tried to get into orbit are humans.


The Coalition Stats do. As far as knowing who'd tried to get into orbit, we know humans have tried, we don't know if anyone else has or not. We do know that there are space capable powers on earth. The Splugorth and Naruni has star empires, so they clearly have the capability. Whether they have or not at Earth, we don't know.

The Coalition does not shoot everyone on sight. The passage that you blatantly took out of context states indicates that they shoot intruders inside their fortified cities on sight.
The rest of your argument lacks evidence in the published books. If Atlantis and other hostile debee powers tried to launch from all over the world, and the Orbitals got burned too many times, that would be far more plausible. That's not what MiO presents. You're altering the setting described to justify the setting described.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I never said everyone. Obviously some don't automatically shoot on sight. Some turn a blind eye if they're shooting at the bigger more dangerous monster too. For all I know there are people in communications with each other. Officially though, it doesn't happen. And getting officials to change policy very difficult.

Getting them to enact this insane policy in the first place should have been impossible. How exactly did that multinational summit go? "Hey, screw our homeworld! Let's dedicate nearly all our resources to maintaining the debris field and hundreds of thousands of killer satellites that shoot down any of those peons who decide to come join us, even if they have things we desperately need like air, water, and materials! All in favor?"

I get this vibe in MiO that this policy was unanimously adopted as the obvious and logical solution. It strikes me as something that you'd get out of a HAL-9000 computer that's gone bonkers.


I imagine it was quite easy considering what happened. Even if they could communicate it isn't like they could do anything. Aircraft were grounded. Spacecraft certainly would be as well.

If they could communicate, they could do a great deal. Satellite communications, weather, overhead visualization... those are all highly useful things.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm sure there's more. That's just the most recent place I've read it. Plus the quote doesn't say anything about inside. If they're inside they got past the defenders. Not a good thing when it comes to monsters and such that want to kill those inside.

MiO page 61
Quote:
When an alien vessel or being is discovered, they immediately attack, with hopes to destroy them or force a hasty retreat (extermination is preferred).

There is more; that's my whole point! Read the whole paragraph you're quoting from Heroes of Humanity. Read all of page 149 and page 150. It's all focused on Coalition fortress cities and how they're designed to prevent infiltration. Did you just do a CTRL-F in a PDF of a Rifts book that focuses on the Coalition, search for "shoot first," and then copy and paste from a PDF?

Please, though, keep on looking. I'd like to see a single quote anywhere outside of MiO describing a Rifts Earth culture that shoots everyone else on sight without warning.


page 11
Quote:
The unlucky ones are attacked, tarred and feathered, chained
and dragged across the ground by vehicles, or hauled out i nto
the street where they are severely beaten or killed.

page 12.
Quote:
Practitioners of magic caught trying to stop the violence or douse
the fires via magic are killed on the spot.

again page 12
Quote:
You come across a group of D-Bee mercenaries, you waste them. A
village of nonhumans, vaporize them all. A magic device, destroy
it. If they aren't human, wipe them out.

Quote:
If it 's not human, kill it.

I see lots of quotes taken suspiciously out of context with page numbers, but no book identified, but I already had Heroes of Humanity out, so I found that passage. The broader context states that this is the knee-jerk reaction of the Coalition to an invasion of demons. The very next paragraph on page 12 states that the CS high command quickly realizes that this approach is dumb and changes it.

I also note that this policy, while evil and dumb, isn't indiscriminate; it's selecting "magic users" and "D-Bees" and "nonhumans." That's not "shoot everyone on sight."

The Orbitals are far less discriminate and far more persistent in their global blockade policy.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
So the policy of kill first and ask questions later, maybe, is nonsense but waiting to see if the big scary thing rips your throat out does. :-?
Waiting and seeing might work for Agent J but most people open fire.


Shooting everyone you meet is bad, mmkay? If we can't agree on this then we don't have a basis for rational discussion.


page 12 again
Quote:
Generations of Coalition soldiers and citizens have been brainwashed into completely accepting this, so it is easy to accept the demonized version of reality and act accordingly in ruthless fashion. If it 's not human, kill it.

Killing debees, but not humans, is not the same thing as killing everyone you meet.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Weapons have a range of...? They don't need to cover every square mile. Just enough to have overlapping fire. plus they could just throw garbage out. Little bits of stuff traveling thousands of miles an hour is going to cause damage. I also think it'd be a lot more effort than just a nudge.

The ranges are provided in MiO, and they're laughably short. 12,000 feet (2 miles) for a particle beam, 60,000 feet (10 miles) for a single-shot old x-ray laser, 2-3 miles for other laser and rail gun satellites, 2 miles for kinetic kill and brilliant pebbles satellites.


Long Range Missiles have a range of 500-1200 miles.

Did I miss a Long Range Missile Launcher on the killer satellites of MiO? If not, then you're altering the setting in order to defend it.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The cover is pretty cool. :)

To be fair, there is some nice-looking interior art, but the good stuff seems more like some Kittani creation cut from Atlantis than anything else, which is another symptom of the book's biggest problem from a production perspective: it lacks coherence and focus, largely due to its dual-setting approach.


:-? I never thought of any of the art as being Kittani. Although thinking about it I could see some of the CAAN stuff maybe. I do agree with the lack of coherence and focus do to the dual setting. I'd love for the AtB and Rifts sections to be split off into their own books.

100% agree with you there.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not if you don't have the means to do so. Again, I can't get FM with an AM radio or AM with an FM radio or Digital channels on an Analog TV. I can't get Dish with Direct TV. And just having a skill does not mean one is capable of doing something. There's languages now that people still have not been able to translate. Even with super computers. Why should the future be different?

Heck, you're not even describing the present. People can and do hack into Dish, Direct TV, XM satellite radio, and just about every kind of broadcast out there, and they especially do this with potential adversaries. Just because this is beyond you doesn't mean it isn't a thing.

As for the languages, we've covered this. The languages presented in MiO are much the same as in Rifts Earth. Your assertions to the contrary would help your position that the setting described in the book makes sense, but they require you to change the setting described in the book.


That can be good or bad. But they're also things people are using now. They may not be using them 300 years from now.

As for language, written might be very similar, spoken is an other question entirely. Language can change a lot in 300 years. Just because they may speak the same language does not mean they can understand each other.

Nothing in MiO justifies your position here, the languages/skills are the same, and both people on Earth and people in orbit are still using Golden Age tech. This argument of yours requires altering the setting or inventing new aspects of it to suit your defense of the setting. That's fine if you like your version better than what's published, but it's not a legitimate defense of MiO as a book or a setting.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
:-? Why say they don't and then tell me they do?

I'm sure they do a lot. I'm also sure there's a lot of encrypted too.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The curvature of Earth prevents us from broadcasting line-of-sight past 30 miles or so. If you put your transmitter in a tower, your signal will reach farther. Satellites do the same thing, but from much higher up.

When you are communicating between points that are already way up in space, you don't have to worry so much about the Earth getting in the way. Those same transmissions that can only go 30 miles or so on Earth go up a lot farther into space.


You said that satellited don't extend the range of a signal and then said they do. As for how far they go on Earth, that'd vary with the transmitter and receiver,antenna. They could easily be a couple hundred miles.


As another poster here said, you seem to be out of your depth where radio communications are concerned. You seem to find it difficult to grasp the concept of surface range being difficult from line-of-sight range. I'll try to explain it again.

When the Earth gets in the way of radio transmissions, bouncing a signal off a satellite can allow you, a person on the surface of the Earth, to talk to someone else who is also on the surface of the Earth. Without the planet in the way, radio signals go much, much farther, hence radio range from one point on Earth to another point on Earth will always be far shorter than radio ranges going up into space. Grab a basketball and imagine two tiny people on different points of the basketball's surface who want to wave to each other. They can't do so; the curvature of the ball prevents it. Now imagine another tiny person floating a foot away from the ball who can wave and look on their behalf. Now the two tiny people on the surface can wave back and forth vicariously through the tiny person floating a foot away. That's the surface range, the kind of range you see in most Rifts books.

Now imagine that those two tiny people are just floating in space, and not standing on a ball. Now there's nothing in their way, and as long as they can see each other, they can wave to each other. Now they're limited by how well they can make out tiny details at a distance. That's going to be a lot farther. That's the kind of difference in range you get with radio communications on Earth vs in space.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Mining can be done with one ship at the asteroid. Getting the supplies needed to put in maneuvering thrusters to move the asteroid to the Earth at killer speed? I think it'd take more than one.

That depends on the type of thruster you use. You can get a lot of velocity built up over several years using an ion engine. You could also use gravity off another large planetary mass to boost your speed without using a thruster at all.


That would work. Of course by the time the asteroid hit the earth they'd of been dead for many years so why care if it hits or not?

Maybe? Depends on... heck, it depends on too many variables for us to properly compare the two options. I'll drop it.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
My point that people in orbit and on Earth can see and signal each other is backed up by the ARCHIE-3 satellite being a thing, as well as the fact that the probes the Orbitals have sent to Earth sent back any data at all.

Seeing asteroids coming in from deep space is a lot harder than looking for stuff that's in orbit. We never saw the Chelyabinsk meteor coming in 2013, and that sucker could have pasted a city.


Did ARCHIE see the satellite, hear the satellite, or have records of the satellite and decided to take it over for fun? I also wouldn't count the probes sent to earth since they were destroyed.

We can see big stations but not a big asteroid? With far fewer people looking in space? :-?
I'm dropping the asteroid argument (oh, the pun).

If the probes sent back data from the surface, then communications weren't an issue. Regardless of what ARCHIE knew, if he can communicate with that satellite, then communications aren't an issue.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network. True, it wouldn't stop monsters from coming out of the Rifts, though it's a tiny fraction of those monsters who are capable of making orbit. True, it would throw a lot of debris up, but it couldn't do so in a way that would put that debris into orbit; you need too much lateral velocity. Thus any debris that goes up would just come back down (unless it achieved escape velocity, in which case it would just fly out into the big empty).

In effect, it would destroy the capabilities of pretty much everyone on Earth from coming up into orbit for a long, long time and render the planet effectively uninhabitable for most living creatures.

Understand, I'm not saying that this is what Kevin should do with the setting; it's just a thought experiment that points out the ludicrous logic of MiO and the Orbital's blockade.


MiO page 61
Quote:
Unless of course things can rift directly into space. Which they can.
The location of the graveyard is a ley line nexus, allowing things
to rift in on a regular basis. Cyberworks and Yuro realize this and
have launched a number of killer satellites into this dead zone to
destroy anything they encounter, adding to the deadliness of the area.


Also destroying the planet could be bad for the stations.

I'm dropping the asteroid argument, though I just want to point out that I wasn't talking about destroying the Earth Alderaan-style but rather making it uninhabitable.

As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night. Alternately, they could be stationary with respect to Earth's surface, but if that's the case, then almost nothing rifting in would be a problem, since it would all just fall back into Earth's atmosphere.

I really dislike MiO.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:12 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
...As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night...


There's at least one where the Japanese station used to be. The book doesn't mention one way or the other if the ley lines creating it are visible though.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:46 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
...As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night...


There's at least one where the Japanese station used to be. The book doesn't mention one way or the other if the ley lines creating it are visible though.

And even if you don't like Nexus Point at L4 (Jap station) and omit them from one's game world(s) there are still Ley Lines and Nexus points on the Moon and Mars (and most planets per text). Really magically getting into space or other worlds within the Solar System is doable. The main hang-up is if those traveling via magic can survive once they get there. The Lunar Nexus Points are under guard with the same containment policy as at Earth Kill or Drive it away.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:15 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
...As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night...


There's at least one where the Japanese station used to be. The book doesn't mention one way or the other if the ley lines creating it are visible though.

And even if you don't like Nexus Point at L4 (Jap station) and omit them from one's game world(s) there are still Ley Lines and Nexus points on the Moon and Mars (and most planets per text). Really magically getting into space or other worlds within the Solar System is doable. The main hang-up is if those traveling via magic can survive once they get there. The Lunar Nexus Points are under guard with the same containment policy as at Earth Kill or Drive it away.


There really SHOULD be ley lines everywhere.
The problem isn't with their existence; it's with their power.
Earth's ley lines got supercharged from the Cataclysm, but the farther out into space this supercharging goes, the more implausible it seems based on everything we know about ley lines, PPE, and so forth.

So what I'd expect to see is that Earth's ley lines were supercharged, and sure, yeah... maybe the Moon. Why not?
Mars....? Eh. Probably not... but I guess.
Beyond that?
Doesn't seem reasonable.
Really, even that much is a stretch, even if it's canon.

But the supercharging doesn't seem to matter too much for one-way transportation to Rifts Space; lower powered ley lines would mean that random rifts were unlikely to open at nexus points, but it wouldn't prevent somebody from opening a rift TO the moon or whatever.
So that could still be done.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:32 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
There really SHOULD be ley lines everywhere.


...should there? i mean what are ley lines, and what creates them? should a planetoid that's never sustained life have them? is there any reason for them being in space? it's all very confusing. i assumed any in RIFTS orbit were kinda...."tossed up there" by the cataclysm.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:35 pm
  

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network-


i'm really gonna need to hear your reasoning there, especially considering the killer satellite network can be recycled, double as a communications network, be built into the satellites they're living in and provide rest stops for orbital travel while smashing the planet with a rock requires you to expend almost all those resources every time to get a new rock.


Sure!

Let's start by some back-of-the-envelope first-order approximations for finding out how many satellites you need. Look at the range of the killer satellites. Most of them have a range of 6,000 ft, and 3x that in space. That's about 3.4 miles. Pi times that range squared is the area a single satellite can cover: about 36.5 square miles.The surface area of the Earth is 197 million square miles according to the Earth Wiki article.
Now divide the surface area of the Earth by that single killer satellite coverage area to get what you'd need to effectively cover the surface area of the world.

Bottom line: You need ~5.4 million killer satellites. That's 18 satellites for each of the 300,000 Orbitals out there, and many of those satellites have limited ammunition. This is also setting aside the logistical challenge of moving ammunition/maintenance parts out to those 5.4 million satellites, as well as the fact that these satellites would be covering a wider area than the surface, because they'd be in orbit.

I'll freely acknowledge that I'm hand-waving a LOT of additional complicating factors, some of which might reduce the satellites needed, and some of which might increase it. Numbers in MiO are problematic in lots of ways. This is a rough order-of-magnitude approximation.

I hadn't given this a second thought before. It's Palladium after all. While walking home today, a thought occurred to me.

If you like trig :) you can find out how many satellites you need from one satellite's weapon range. Draw a line from the centre of Earth to the surface. Draw another line orthogonal to that (and parallel to the surface). Give that line the weapon's range. Get the hypotenuse from the radius of Earth and the weapon's range. That's the distance from the centre of Earth to the satellite. That's one half of the horizon. Mirror and flip that right triangle to get the satellite's horizon. Find the arc along the surface from horizon to horizon. You can find out how many satellites provide continuous coverage of that orbital plane's ground track, then how many orbital planes needed for global coverage.

With a little more trig, you can investigate the effects of limiting the satellite's field of view if its centre line goes through the nadir and the centre of Earth.

With more trig, you can investigate slanted fields of view, such as for synthetic aperture radars.

For an 18,000-foot weapon range, the horizon isn't small. Crappy field of view capabilities will increase the number, but it still might not be too bad.

EDIT: Duh. Feet, not miles. I was thinking of miles.


Last edited by Natasha on Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:10 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
There really SHOULD be ley lines everywhere.


RUE 185
Magic is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time. It is an invisible energy that is found in living beings and coursing through lines that run along the surface of the Earth.

Ley Lines are a manifestation of magic.
Magic has existed since the dawn of time.
It's reasonable to assume that the ley lines have been there since the dawn of time.

Beyond that...
BtS 130-131
A power grid of natural energy that weaves through space and, perhaps, time and the multiverse. A grid of energy that binds the earth to the universe in ways we do not understand,, and to other worlds, other dimensions of reality.

Seems a lot like just part of the universe, that runs everywhere.
Well, multiverse.

(Does 3 Galaxies discuss ley lines much?
There might be something useful there, but it's not in my current library.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:36 pm
  

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Natasha wrote:
For an 18,000-foot weapon range, the horizon isn't small. Crappy field of view capabilities will increase the number, but it still might not be too bad.

EDIT: Duh. Feet, not miles. I was thinking of miles.
Oh well. It's useful for something else.
But the comment about the arc from horizon to horizon got me thinking. If the sats attack targets as they leave the atmosphere from 18,000 feet above the atmosphere, then the surface area to cover is a lot more than the surface area of Earth.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:43 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
There really SHOULD be ley lines everywhere.


RUE 185
Magic is a natural force that has existed since the dawn of time. It is an invisible energy that is found in living beings and coursing through lines that run along the surface of the Earth.

Ley Lines are a manifestation of magic.
Magic has existed since the dawn of time.
It's reasonable to assume that the ley lines have been there since the dawn of time.

Beyond that...
BtS 130-131
A power grid of natural energy that weaves through space and, perhaps, time and the multiverse. A grid of energy that binds the earth to the universe in ways we do not understand,, and to other worlds, other dimensions of reality.

Seems a lot like just part of the universe, that runs everywhere.
Well, multiverse.

(Does 3 Galaxies discuss ley lines much?
There might be something useful there, but it's not in my current library.)



The Phase Word Sourcebook mentions that there are Lines in space, and they prevent space-fold systems from working (like the types Arkhons and Intruders use).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:14 am
  

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My take on Ley lines is that they are similar to EM flux lines but for "magical Energy" which in effect means that its not unreasonable for them to exist throughout the galaxy, and even the universe. The problem is that "magical Energy" also seems to be created, gathered and focused by living things. this means a "dead" planet, asteroid, moon, or star, (and on another level solar system, stellar cluster, galactic arm, or even galaxy) is going to tend to have lower inherent "magic" levels.

on the other hand there is definately evidence that certain cycles like solstices, planetary alignments and similar can affect "magic energy levels" on the ley lines and nexi, so its not unreasonable to conclude that the catalclysm on earth supercharged the ley lines on earth, but also had some effect on overall "magical Energy levels" on earth, throughout the solar system, and to some extent throughout the local area of the galaxy, and possibly even the whole galaxy or beyond. the big question is how significant it was in the grand scheme of thiings at each "level"
For instance if the normal background level on earth is 1ppe per unit kind of like comparing it to em, or background radiation and it after the catalclysm on earth jumpped it to 100, or 1000 times that, how far does the effect reach, and does it make a significant difference. I could also see that a galactic "ley line" might be light years wide and or tens or hundreds of thousands of light years long. but it also might be so relatively weak that normally not many people notice...


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:10 am
  

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Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
You'd think so but then again Things keep trying to enslave or eat them. As far as they're concerned there's no one to talk to. Maybe that'll change? Maybe it won't. But as of the date in MiO they weren't ready to change.

There are many people to talk to. People on Earth use their radios to talk with other people on Earth. People in Orbit use their radios to talk with other people in Orbit.


Sure many would be trying to contact anyone they could. Atmospheric conditions though are going to screw things up a lot. So would the killer satellites blasting things including other satellites. That's going to limit the range of their communications.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You make it sound as if they were looking down from a space station right now and seeing all the city lights. That wasn't the case. Reread the entire paragraph again. That took place shortly after the Rifts started and Earth was still tearing itself apart. They weren't finding cities. They were finding deadly problems. And those who tried to live on Earth died. As far as those in orbit were concerned Earth was denied to them so they focused on making space their home. If things were a nice as it seems you think it should be there wouldn't be a Coalition States as the Rifts would be like a tropical storm instead of nearly an extinction level event.

Holy strawman argument, Batman!

In the setting right now, yes, there are city lights down below that the Orbitals could look down an see. Right after the Coming of the Rifts, there weren't (and Chaos Earth does a good job of explaining this, actually). The Orbitals' decision in the context of the Chaos Earth setting makes some sense. Their decision in the context of the current setting doesn't.


No straw included, Robyn. All the ash and such caused a nuclear type winter that lasted up to 50 years or more. No one is going to see anything. And after there's going to be a lot fewer lights to see. If one is looking.

:-? Did I miss something? I know I don't have every detail memorized but that is the current setting. Chaos Earth is Rifts past. Are you mixing up the AtB setting with Rifts? :-?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I won't say there wasn't any lightning cause its sneaky but I don't remember any. Sometimes just a cloudy day knocked out channels.

That's not impossible; it depends on the radio frequencies you're using. You mentioned storm clouds in a previous post, which is why I gravitated towards lightning as a more likely culprit.


It was worse on stormy days.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And how many humans are in Atlantis? How do you tell a good human from an evil or possessed human?

You don't. You make a reasonable risk decision based on the information you can gather. Shooting everyone coming up Earth's gravity well isn't reasonable. Shooting up everyone coming up out of Atlantis, Archon territory, and some other select spots is somewhat more reasonable.


Not everyone is reasonable. And how do you tell a good from bad when everything that's come up has tried to kill you? Do you hope this time will be different until :shock: :-o :eek: :? :angel:
:fl: That human was tasty. I do believe I'll have another.

At what point do you decide to kill everything coming up?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Also the nations of Earth who've tried to go to space are quite busy fighting for their lives. Look at all the CS is having to contract out and all the blind eyes they've been turning. Because they're stretched too thin to worry about space right now.

No, it's like saying that Pearl Harbor was populated by human beings who spoke English in 1941, and therefore it still might be. Or that the U.S. Navy used Pearl Harbor in 1941, and therefore some version of the U.S. Navy still might.

The "fighting for their lives, therefore too busy to look up basic history and try to communicate with the Orbitals" argument is highly variable and situational. In the context of the Minion War, I can buy that. I can't buy that all of humanity is in that kind of state continually for 300 years.


Actually, it's far worse than that. It's like trying to understand English 300 years ago. Like Shakespeare. Not everyone can understand it. And might doesn't mean is. Even worse Pear Harbor may not be Pearl Harbor. It could be Pearl Harbor of 1641. Or not there at all or some completely alien island. Or an asteroid crater? If no one answers any messages, and non of the messengers come back, when do you cut your losses and presume Pear Harbor isn't there any more?

You've got Vampires to the south. Killer bugs to the north, Slavers and Splugorth in the gulf and up the eastern coast. Not sure what on the west coast and all kinds of monsters in between. The NGR has been fighting Gargoyles the whole time. Sure there was a time where they'd looked and tried to get into space and then gave up. Now they're rather busy. As for the rest of humanity, how'd they know about space stations? Some places might but most, they'd have to hunt for pre-rifts books and then be able to read the book. Even if they could, that doesn't mean they have the ability to do anything with that information, or that they care. Humans went to space and live in giant cans in space. Sure. Right.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The Coalition Stats do. As far as knowing who'd tried to get into orbit, we know humans have tried, we don't know if anyone else has or not. We do know that there are space capable powers on earth. The Splugorth and Naruni has star empires, so they clearly have the capability. Whether they have or not at Earth, we don't know.

The Coalition does not shoot everyone on sight. The passage that you blatantly took out of context states indicates that they shoot intruders inside their fortified cities on sight.

The rest of your argument lacks evidence in the published books. If Atlantis and other hostile debee powers tried to launch from all over the world, and the Orbitals got burned too many times, that would be far more plausible. That's not what MiO presents. You're altering the setting described to justify the setting described.


The Coalition does have a list of kill on sight. It's in the books. I provided other examples.

I'm not altering anything. I'm suggesting a possible reason for why the Orbitals continue to blockade Earth. I really have no idea though. I hope an update book will tell us.


Sambot wrote:
I imagine it was quite easy considering what happened. Even if they could communicate it isn't like they could do anything. Aircraft were grounded. Spacecraft certainly would be as well.

If they could communicate, they could do a great deal. Satellite communications, weather, overhead visualization... those are all highly useful things.

That's true. They are useful things. However, humans got along without for centuries so they're not critical.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
If it 's not human, kill it.

I see lots of quotes taken suspiciously out of context with page numbers, but no book identified, but I already had Heroes of Humanity out, so I found that passage. The broader context states that this is the knee-jerk reaction of the Coalition to an invasion of demons. The very next paragraph on page 12 states that the CS high command quickly realizes that this approach is dumb and changes it.

I also note that this policy, while evil and dumb, isn't indiscriminate; it's selecting "magic users" and "D-Bees" and "nonhumans." That's not "shoot everyone on sight."

The Orbitals are far less discriminate and far more persistent in their global blockade policy.


They're from Heroes of Humanity. Here's some from Rifts Ultimate Edition.
page 230
Quote:
If anything, Emperor Prosek has created an atmosphere where cruelty and evil can thrive. It makes dealing with Coalition troops a scary proposition, because one
never knows what he'll get.

Quote:
Others are meanspirited bigots who enjoy and abuse the power of being in control . They torture, rape, plunder and murder D-Bees without compassion and enjoy every minute of it. They are the superior junior Nazis who give humans a bad name. They may pretend to be patriots serving in the name of j ustice and humanity but they are evil bullies given a license to kill.

page 231
Quote:
The soldier has been indoctrinated to believe that all non-human creatures are invaders and a threat to human life. Even the most open-minded character will find it difficult to trust D-Bees or those who oppose the C S (Rogue Scholars,
Rogue Scientists, etc.).
The official Coalition line on the matter is: "Do not give pause in your belieft. Unnatural invaders have the power, both psychic and magical, to cloud your mind. To listen to their words is to open oneself to evil. Stay clean. Stay pure. Kill them without hesitation or remorse, knowing that your actions save the human race . ..
On alien technology. The typical soldier perceives it as dangerous and seductive. To use anything alien (i.e., anything that is NOT Coalition Army issue or produced by an ally nation like Northern Gun) is the first step to being seduced and corrupted into accepting that which is inhuman. Thus, most avoid alien and foreign technology like the plague. Collecting it up and shipping it back to High Command or destroying it on the spot.


The last would apply to Orbitals since Earth doesn't have space flight technology.

The CS only changed their policy because of how stretched they are. They also changed it to using the CS enemies fighting the demons as cannon fodder. Let them kill the monsters if they can. If they can't, oh well. If they do, let them take on the next monster until they're dead. It's there on page 12. And the CS's enemies include humans as well as D-bees.

And the Orbitals keep getting monsters and aliens coming at them.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
page 12 again
Quote:
Generations of Coalition soldiers and citizens have been brainwashed into completely accepting this, so it is easy to accept the demonized version of reality and act accordingly in ruthless fashion. If it 's not human, kill it.

Killing debees, but not humans, is not the same thing as killing everyone you meet.


They kill more than d-bees. They kill humans too. Read above.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Long Range Missiles have a range of 500-1200 miles.

Did I miss a Long Range Missile Launcher on the killer satellites of MiO? If not, then you're altering the setting in order to defend it.


Its on page 83 in MiO.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
As for language, written might be very similar, spoken is an other question entirely. Language can change a lot in 300 years. Just because they may speak the same language does not mean they can understand each other.

Nothing in MiO justifies your position here, the languages/skills are the same, and both people on Earth and people in orbit are still using Golden Age tech. This argument of yours requires altering the setting or inventing new aspects of it to suit your defense of the setting. That's fine if you like your version better than what's published, but it's not a legitimate defense of MiO as a book or a setting.


Nothing is the same after 300 years. Language drifts. Accents develop. Sure they might get lucky and talk talk with someone they understand. If they're listening for someone and nothing has been said if they're still listening. Both gave up and focused on more pressing concerns.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You said that satellited don't extend the range of a signal and then said they do. As for how far they go on Earth, that'd vary with the transmitter and receiver,antenna. They could easily be a couple hundred miles.


As another poster here said, you seem to be out of your depth where radio communications are concerned. You seem to find it difficult to grasp the concept of surface range being difficult from line-of-sight range. I'll try to explain it again.

When the Earth gets in the way of radio transmissions, bouncing a signal off a satellite can allow you, a person on the surface of the Earth, to talk to someone else who is also on the surface of the Earth. Without the planet in the way, radio signals go much, much farther, hence radio range from one point on Earth to another point on Earth will always be far shorter than radio ranges going up into space. Grab a basketball and imagine two tiny people on different points of the basketball's surface who want to wave to each other. They can't do so; the curvature of the ball prevents it. Now imagine another tiny person floating a foot away from the ball who can wave and look on their behalf. Now the two tiny people on the surface can wave back and forth vicariously through the tiny person floating a foot away. That's the surface range, the kind of range you see in most Rifts books.

Now imagine that those two tiny people are just floating in space, and not standing on a ball. Now there's nothing in their way, and as long as they can see each other, they can wave to each other. Now they're limited by how well they can make out tiny details at a distance. That's going to be a lot farther. That's the kind of difference in range you get with radio communications on Earth vs in space.


You misunderstand me again and you say there won't be problems communicating 300 years from now. You said satellites didn't extend communication and now you're trying to prove that they do and I don't understand.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
We can see big stations but not a big asteroid? With far fewer people looking in space? :-?
I'm dropping the asteroid argument (oh, the pun).

If the probes sent back data from the surface, then communications weren't an issue. Regardless of what ARCHIE knew, if he can communicate with that satellite, then communications aren't an issue.


How solid are the communications between ARCHIE and the Satellite? Constant or occasional? Do the orbitals have direct contact or do they have to bounce a signal to it?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Also destroying the planet could be bad for the stations.

I'm dropping the asteroid argument, though I just want to point out that I wasn't talking about destroying the Earth Alderaan-style but rather making it uninhabitable.

As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night. Alternately, they could be stationary with respect to Earth's surface, but if that's the case, then almost nothing rifting in would be a problem, since it would all just fall back into Earth's atmosphere.


I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.


Quote:
I really dislike MiO.


I got that :D :ok:


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:24 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
All the ash and such caused a nuclear type winter that lasted up to 50 years or more. No one is going to see anything. And after there's going to be a lot fewer lights to see. If one is looking.

:-? Did I miss something? I know I don't have every detail memorized but that is the current setting. Chaos Earth is Rifts past. Are you mixing up the AtB setting with Rifts? :-?
[snip]
You misunderstand me again and you say there won't be problems communicating 300 years from now. You said satellites didn't extend communication and now you're trying to prove that they do and I don't understand.

Greetings and Salutations. Two things ...

1: Apparently the "something" that you're missing is the other 250 years after the first 50 you mentioned (300-50=250). There are now literal mega-cities in the world. Fewer lights than before the cataclysm does not mean no lights. There's plenty of locations as the setting continues to show more and more places of cities (instead of mostly wilderness as originally portrayed in the setting).

2: For extending the range without extending the range. Attach a scope on a rifle. You can now hit targets at a further range than before. Yet the rifle won't actually shoot further than before. If you follow that concept, now think of a wall between you and your target. You have the Trick Shoot (from New West and RGMG) to Ricochet. You ricochet the shot off the ceiling and hit a target on the other side. You hit a target you couldn't otherwise hit because of the wall, but you didn't actually extend the gun's range. The gun is the radio wave and the satellite is the ceiling, expanding where you can communicate but not actually extending range. That's not a perfect metaphor, but should relay the concept.

Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:55 am
  

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lather wrote:
Natasha wrote:
For an 18,000-foot weapon range, the horizon isn't small. Crappy field of view capabilities will increase the number, but it still might not be too bad.

EDIT: Duh. Feet, not miles. I was thinking of miles.
Oh well. It's useful for something else.
But the comment about the arc from horizon to horizon got me thinking. If the sats attack targets as they leave the atmosphere from 18,000 feet above the atmosphere, then the surface area to cover is a lot more than the surface area of Earth.


It gets worse when you consider that the atmosphere doesn't just stop at a specific altitude. The ISS orbits at around 100 miles in altitude and requires occasional boosts due to atmospheric drag. If you place all these satellites at or below the ISS low Earth Orbit altitude, then you're going to have to deal with the need to counter that atmospheric drag. If you put them high enough that they'll last for centuries or more, then you'll have to put them higher.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:14 am
  

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Prysus wrote:
There are now literal mega-cities in the world. Fewer lights than before the cataclysm does not mean no lights. There's plenty of locations as the setting continues to show more and more places of cities (instead of mostly wilderness as originally portrayed in the setting).


no there aren't. there's cities but nothing approaching the scale you could call a mega-city. chi-town's a small city surrounded by a couple miles of unrelated slums they routinely purge because they don't want them there, you can't call the burps part of the city population when they're living in tents and chased off every time they get comfy. you can't just wrap a wall around baltimore and say it's a beacon of hope.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:03 am
  

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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
You'd think so but then again Things keep trying to enslave or eat them. As far as they're concerned there's no one to talk to. Maybe that'll change? Maybe it won't. But as of the date in MiO they weren't ready to change.

There are many people to talk to. People on Earth use their radios to talk with other people on Earth. People in Orbit use their radios to talk with other people in Orbit.


Sure many would be trying to contact anyone they could. Atmospheric conditions though are going to screw things up a lot. So would the killer satellites blasting things including other satellites. That's going to limit the range of their communications.

Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You make it sound as if they were looking down from a space station right now and seeing all the city lights. That wasn't the case. Reread the entire paragraph again. That took place shortly after the Rifts started and Earth was still tearing itself apart. They weren't finding cities. They were finding deadly problems. And those who tried to live on Earth died. As far as those in orbit were concerned Earth was denied to them so they focused on making space their home. If things were a nice as it seems you think it should be there wouldn't be a Coalition States as the Rifts would be like a tropical storm instead of nearly an extinction level event.

Holy strawman argument, Batman!

In the setting right now, yes, there are city lights down below that the Orbitals could look down an see. Right after the Coming of the Rifts, there weren't (and Chaos Earth does a good job of explaining this, actually). The Orbitals' decision in the context of the Chaos Earth setting makes some sense. Their decision in the context of the current setting doesn't.


No straw included, Robyn. All the ash and such caused a nuclear type winter that lasted up to 50 years or more. No one is going to see anything. And after there's going to be a lot fewer lights to see. If one is looking.

:-? Did I miss something? I know I don't have every detail memorized but that is the current setting. Chaos Earth is Rifts past. Are you mixing up the AtB setting with Rifts? :-?

It's entirely possible that the atmosphere was occluded for 50 years. 300 years have now passed, and the ashes in the stratosphere are long gone. There are lots of lights for the Orbitals to see down below, and those lights would be very obvious.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I won't say there wasn't any lightning cause its sneaky but I don't remember any. Sometimes just a cloudy day knocked out channels.

That's not impossible; it depends on the radio frequencies you're using. You mentioned storm clouds in a previous post, which is why I gravitated towards lightning as a more likely culprit.

It was worse on stormy days.

That makes sense.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And how many humans are in Atlantis? How do you tell a good human from an evil or possessed human?

You don't. You make a reasonable risk decision based on the information you can gather. Shooting everyone coming up Earth's gravity well isn't reasonable. Shooting up everyone coming up out of Atlantis, Archon territory, and some other select spots is somewhat more reasonable.


Not everyone is reasonable. And how do you tell a good from bad when everything that's come up has tried to kill you? Do you hope this time will be different until :shock: :-o :eek: :? :angel:
:fl: That human was tasty. I do believe I'll have another.

At what point do you decide to kill everything coming up?

Several issues with that argument. First, there is no evidence in canon that everything that has come up Earth's gravity well has tried to fight/kill the Orbitals. I'm not aware of any power described in the worldbooks or sourcebooks that's sent anything up with hostile intent. The biggest fight the Orbitals have had from aliens came from the Archons, and they didn't come from Earth. Second, the blockade isn't just a bad judgment call. As we've been discussing, it's a colossal resource drain required of societies that struggle to find air to breathe and water to drink. Third, there's plenty of space in... space. There's no need to pounce right away on anything coming up the well when the Orbitals could spend maybe an hour or so studying the launched vehicle and trying to establish whether it's an actual threat.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Also the nations of Earth who've tried to go to space are quite busy fighting for their lives. Look at all the CS is having to contract out and all the blind eyes they've been turning. Because they're stretched too thin to worry about space right now.

No, it's like saying that Pearl Harbor was populated by human beings who spoke English in 1941, and therefore it still might be. Or that the U.S. Navy used Pearl Harbor in 1941, and therefore some version of the U.S. Navy still might.

The "fighting for their lives, therefore too busy to look up basic history and try to communicate with the Orbitals" argument is highly variable and situational. In the context of the Minion War, I can buy that. I can't buy that all of humanity is in that kind of state continually for 300 years.


Actually, it's far worse than that. It's like trying to understand English 300 years ago. Like Shakespeare. Not everyone can understand it. And might doesn't mean is. Even worse Pear Harbor may not be Pearl Harbor. It could be Pearl Harbor of 1641. Or not there at all or some completely alien island. Or an asteroid crater? If no one answers any messages, and non of the messengers come back, when do you cut your losses and presume Pear Harbor isn't there any more?

You've got Vampires to the south. Killer bugs to the north, Slavers and Splugorth in the gulf and up the eastern coast. Not sure what on the west coast and all kinds of monsters in between. The NGR has been fighting Gargoyles the whole time. Sure there was a time where they'd looked and tried to get into space and then gave up. Now they're rather busy. As for the rest of humanity, how'd they know about space stations? Some places might but most, they'd have to hunt for pre-rifts books and then be able to read the book. Even if they could, that doesn't mean they have the ability to do anything with that information, or that they care. Humans went to space and live in giant cans in space. Sure. Right.

You're talking about what "might" be, but what's presented in MiO is what "is," and what "is" is a human society in orbit using Golden Age Tech, including radios, and speaking the same languages. What was up there is common knowledge; Erin Tarn's books are widely distributed and read/listened to. What is up there hasn't changed all that much.

Shakespearian English can be a little difficult for some to grasp at first, but it's quite comprehensible. MiO specifically talks about the difficulties of coming up Earth's gravity well and interacting with the Orbitals, and language is not one of the barriers it mentions. Your argument requires modifying the setting described. It also requires a level of ignorance that just isn't plausible.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
The Coalition Stats do. As far as knowing who'd tried to get into orbit, we know humans have tried, we don't know if anyone else has or not. We do know that there are space capable powers on earth. The Splugorth and Naruni has star empires, so they clearly have the capability. Whether they have or not at Earth, we don't know.

The Coalition does not shoot everyone on sight. The passage that you blatantly took out of context states indicates that they shoot intruders inside their fortified cities on sight.

The rest of your argument lacks evidence in the published books. If Atlantis and other hostile debee powers tried to launch from all over the world, and the Orbitals got burned too many times, that would be far more plausible. That's not what MiO presents. You're altering the setting described to justify the setting described.


The Coalition does have a list of kill on sight. It's in the books. I provided other examples.

I'm not altering anything. I'm suggesting a possible reason for why the Orbitals continue to blockade Earth. I really have no idea though. I hope an update book will tell us.

Sure, the Coalition has a list of things that its troops kill on sight. As in "IF it's one of these things, THEN you kill it on sight. The Coalition does not kill everyone and everything they meet on sight. They don't do that with everyone and everything entering their territory.

If a book's content is nonsensical without additional information, then the book's content is nonsensical. You're defended MiO by inventing new content justifying its nonsense, and now you're prevaricating and saying that your defense is "a possible reason." Creating that additional information as a defense of the nonsensical content is altering that content. If your defense amounts to "yeah, it's nonsense, but it could make sense IF..." and making up stuff that isn't in canon, then I don't understand why you're making any argument in MiO's defense at all.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I imagine it was quite easy considering what happened. Even if they could communicate it isn't like they could do anything. Aircraft were grounded. Spacecraft certainly would be as well.

If they could communicate, they could do a great deal. Satellite communications, weather, overhead visualization... those are all highly useful things.


That's true. They are useful things. However, humans got along without for centuries so they're not critical.

Humans got by for millennia without electricity, vehicles, basic sanitation, medicine, and metal tools. Would you consider any of those "not critical?"

Satellites can and do save lives every day. If your life has ever depended on a satellite for navigation, communication, or weather prediction, then it's pretty darn critical to you.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
If it 's not human, kill it.

I see lots of quotes taken suspiciously out of context with page numbers, but no book identified, but I already had Heroes of Humanity out, so I found that passage. The broader context states that this is the knee-jerk reaction of the Coalition to an invasion of demons. The very next paragraph on page 12 states that the CS high command quickly realizes that this approach is dumb and changes it.

I also note that this policy, while evil and dumb, isn't indiscriminate; it's selecting "magic users" and "D-Bees" and "nonhumans." That's not "shoot everyone on sight."

The Orbitals are far less discriminate and far more persistent in their global blockade policy.


They're from Heroes of Humanity. Here's some from Rifts Ultimate Edition.
page 230
Quote:
If anything, Emperor Prosek has created an atmosphere where cruelty and evil can thrive. It makes dealing with Coalition troops a scary proposition, because one
never knows what he'll get.

Quote:
Others are meanspirited bigots who enjoy and abuse the power of being in control . They torture, rape, plunder and murder D-Bees without compassion and enjoy every minute of it. They are the superior junior Nazis who give humans a bad name. They may pretend to be patriots serving in the name of j ustice and humanity but they are evil bullies given a license to kill.

page 231
Quote:
The soldier has been indoctrinated to believe that all non-human creatures are invaders and a threat to human life. Even the most open-minded character will find it difficult to trust D-Bees or those who oppose the C S (Rogue Scholars,
Rogue Scientists, etc.).
The official Coalition line on the matter is: "Do not give pause in your belieft. Unnatural invaders have the power, both psychic and magical, to cloud your mind. To listen to their words is to open oneself to evil. Stay clean. Stay pure. Kill them without hesitation or remorse, knowing that your actions save the human race . ..
On alien technology. The typical soldier perceives it as dangerous and seductive. To use anything alien (i.e., anything that is NOT Coalition Army issue or produced by an ally nation like Northern Gun) is the first step to being seduced and corrupted into accepting that which is inhuman. Thus, most avoid alien and foreign technology like the plague. Collecting it up and shipping it back to High Command or destroying it on the spot.


The last would apply to Orbitals since Earth doesn't have space flight technology.

The CS only changed their policy because of how stretched they are. They also changed it to using the CS enemies fighting the demons as cannon fodder. Let them kill the monsters if they can. If they can't, oh well. If they do, let them take on the next monster until they're dead. It's there on page 12. And the CS's enemies include humans as well as D-bees.

And the Orbitals keep getting monsters and aliens coming at them.

I note that none of your quotes back up your claim that civilizations on the surface shoot everyone they meet, even in the extreme case of the Coalition. The C.S. approach is evil, but it has never been indiscriminate. Only the Orbitals are so extreme in their approach, and nothing in MiO justifies this difference.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
page 12 again
Quote:
Generations of Coalition soldiers and citizens have been brainwashed into completely accepting this, so it is easy to accept the demonized version of reality and act accordingly in ruthless fashion. If it 's not human, kill it.

Killing debees, but not humans, is not the same thing as killing everyone you meet.


They kill more than d-bees. They kill humans too. Read above.

They do not kill humans indiscriminately; they only kill humans who they regard as threats (and they often won't even shoot those on sight), mainly magic users and political foes.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Long Range Missiles have a range of 500-1200 miles.

Did I miss a Long Range Missile Launcher on the killer satellites of MiO? If not, then you're altering the setting in order to defend it.


Its on page 83 in MiO.

No, it's not. That's an optional weapon system to put on a custom-built spacecraft, not a satellite. The killer satellites start on p85.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
As for language, written might be very similar, spoken is an other question entirely. Language can change a lot in 300 years. Just because they may speak the same language does not mean they can understand each other.

Nothing in MiO justifies your position here, the languages/skills are the same, and both people on Earth and people in orbit are still using Golden Age tech. This argument of yours requires altering the setting or inventing new aspects of it to suit your defense of the setting. That's fine if you like your version better than what's published, but it's not a legitimate defense of MiO as a book or a setting.


Nothing is the same after 300 years. Language drifts. Accents develop. Sure they might get lucky and talk talk with someone they understand. If they're listening for someone and nothing has been said if they're still listening. Both gave up and focused on more pressing concerns.

If that were the case, then people wouldn't understand pre-Rifts recordings. They do, and that's canon. Your argument in defense of the setting requires altering the setting and is therefore invalid.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You said that satellited don't extend the range of a signal and then said they do. As for how far they go on Earth, that'd vary with the transmitter and receiver,antenna. They could easily be a couple hundred miles.


As another poster here said, you seem to be out of your depth where radio communications are concerned. You seem to find it difficult to grasp the concept of surface range being difficult from line-of-sight range. I'll try to explain it again.

When the Earth gets in the way of radio transmissions, bouncing a signal off a satellite can allow you, a person on the surface of the Earth, to talk to someone else who is also on the surface of the Earth. Without the planet in the way, radio signals go much, much farther, hence radio range from one point on Earth to another point on Earth will always be far shorter than radio ranges going up into space. Grab a basketball and imagine two tiny people on different points of the basketball's surface who want to wave to each other. They can't do so; the curvature of the ball prevents it. Now imagine another tiny person floating a foot away from the ball who can wave and look on their behalf. Now the two tiny people on the surface can wave back and forth vicariously through the tiny person floating a foot away. That's the surface range, the kind of range you see in most Rifts books.

Now imagine that those two tiny people are just floating in space, and not standing on a ball. Now there's nothing in their way, and as long as they can see each other, they can wave to each other. Now they're limited by how well they can make out tiny details at a distance. That's going to be a lot farther. That's the kind of difference in range you get with radio communications on Earth vs in space.


You misunderstand me again and you say there won't be problems communicating 300 years from now. You said satellites didn't extend communication and now you're trying to prove that they do and I don't understand.


Try reading this. It may help.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
We can see big stations but not a big asteroid? With far fewer people looking in space? :-?
I'm dropping the asteroid argument (oh, the pun).

If the probes sent back data from the surface, then communications weren't an issue. Regardless of what ARCHIE knew, if he can communicate with that satellite, then communications aren't an issue.


How solid are the communications between ARCHIE and the Satellite? Constant or occasional? Do the orbitals have direct contact or do they have to bounce a signal to it? [/quote]
Sourcebook 1, p93 (revised/expanded edition) states that his satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, which gives him and his robots constant line-of-sight communication with the satellite. The communication is described as "reliable."

When Orbitals talk to each other, if the planet is in their way, they will bounce signals. Otherwise, they could communicate directly.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Also destroying the planet could be bad for the stations.

I'm dropping the asteroid argument, though I just want to point out that I wasn't talking about destroying the Earth Alderaan-style but rather making it uninhabitable.

As for stuff rifting into space, sheesh, I hate that concept. In order for that to be a thing, then there has to be a ley line nexus in orbit, meaning that the ley lines themselves have to be moving at orbital velocities. That would create big bright streaks in the sky on Earth that you could see clearly at night. Alternately, they could be stationary with respect to Earth's surface, but if that's the case, then almost nothing rifting in would be a problem, since it would all just fall back into Earth's atmosphere.


I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.

Orbits aren't fixed points.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:07 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Prysus wrote:
There are now literal mega-cities in the world. Fewer lights than before the cataclysm does not mean no lights. There's plenty of locations as the setting continues to show more and more places of cities (instead of mostly wilderness as originally portrayed in the setting).


no there aren't. there's cities but nothing approaching the scale you could call a mega-city. chi-town's a small city surrounded by a couple miles of unrelated slums they routinely purge because they don't want them there, you can't call the burps part of the city population when they're living in tents and chased off every time they get comfy. you can't just wrap a wall around baltimore and say it's a beacon of hope.


If you're talking about mega-cities like in Judge Dredd, no. If you're talking about mega-cities like the es Boston-Washington corridor, no. If you're talking about locations with hundreds of thousands to millions of people and bright lights, then yes, they're there, and they would definitely be visible from space.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:27 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:36 am
Posts: 1193
Actually you wouldn't see the cities from space. The ley lines would cause too much illumination.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:23 pm
  

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HWalsh wrote:
Actually you wouldn't see the cities from space. The ley lines would cause too much illumination.


In areas where the cities are built on ley lines or nexuses (nexi?), maybe so.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:58 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. Two things ...

1: Apparently the "something" that you're missing is the other 250 years after the first 50 you mentioned (300-50=250). There are now literal mega-cities in the world. Fewer lights than before the cataclysm does not mean no lights. There's plenty of locations as the setting continues to show more and more places of cities (instead of mostly wilderness as originally portrayed in the setting).


True. Fewer does not mean none. The presence of mega cities is why I said fewer not none. That doesn't mean that they're not far apart. There is still a lot of wilderness out there. Far more than there is now.



Quote:
2: For extending the range without extending the range. Attach a scope on a rifle. You can now hit targets at a further range than before. Yet the rifle won't actually shoot further than before. If you follow that concept, now think of a wall between you and your target. You have the Trick Shoot (from New West and RGMG) to Ricochet. You ricochet the shot off the ceiling and hit a target on the other side. You hit a target you couldn't otherwise hit because of the wall, but you didn't actually extend the gun's range. The gun is the radio wave and the satellite is the ceiling, expanding where you can communicate but not actually extending range. That's not a perfect metaphor, but should relay the concept.


I wouldn't call a scope increasing range but increasing accuracy. I can see where you're going with the ricochet though. Although that actually decreases a bullets range. The satellites would resend the signal so it shouldn't get weaker with each bounce. And I never had a problem with satellites increasing range. I was told they didn't though and then that they did. I'm going to guess its a failure to communicate. :)


Quote:
Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

:) Thanks you too :) :ok:


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:10 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
no there aren't. there's cities but nothing approaching the scale you could call a mega-city. chi-town's a small city surrounded by a couple miles of unrelated slums they routinely purge because they don't want them there, you can't call the burps part of the city population when they're living in tents and chased off every time they get comfy. you can't just wrap a wall around baltimore and say it's a beacon of hope.

Greetings and Salutations. I had thought they used the term mega-city, but I could be wrong. I had thought it was used for Chi-Town, or maybe for the Japan cities that were rifted in from the past. But Rifts isn't my setting of choice and I don't know it very well, so I'm willing to admit I quite probably misspoke (mistyped?). So I apologize for being inaccurate. With that said, we shouldn't overlook the population of the 'Burbs.

With that said, I'm not including it as part of Chi-Town directly. However, as the regarding is visuals from space, it would effectively add to the lights of Chi-Town as a single location. As for tents, per RUE page 28, that's only for "the shanty-towns on the furthest outskirts." Other parts have "10 and 15 story buildings scattered among the homes and smaller 2-4 story businesses and dwellings" as well as the sections of City Side "with skyscrapers as high as 30 stories" and Hillcrest (wealthy residential sector). This extends for miles (though no specific measurement is provided).

For at least one possible visual of the 'Burbs (as art is inconsistent): RUE Chi-Town image (large city with plenty of lights).

Also consider the population of the 'Burbs: 3 million. To put that in perspective, modern day Chicago (one of the largest cities in the current U.S.) has less than that (at approximately 2.7 million). That's not counting the 2.2 million living in Chi-Town itself. So if you add the population of Chi-Town and the 'Burbs, that's almost double the population of current day Chicago. While I'm not saying they're one entity, it helps put the size in perspective.

On an additional note, I noticed this while I was looking at stuff: Artificial Structures Visible from Space

Quote:
"The human naked eye has an angular resolution of approximately 280 microradians[20] (μrad), and the ISS targets an altitude of 400 km[21]. Using basic trigonometric relations, this means that an astronaut on the ISS with 20/20 vision could potentially detect objects that are 112 m or greater in all dimensions. However, since this would be at the absolute limit of the resolution, objects on the order of 100 m would appear as unidentifiable specks, if not rendered invisible due to other factors, such as atmospheric conditions or poor contrast."

This mentions being 112 m or greater in all dimensions. Chi-Town we know is "more than a thousand feet above" the 'Burbs. Whether that means above the ground level, or the tallest buildings of the 'Burbs is up to interpretation. For now, let's just say it's 1,000 feet (at least 304.8 m, even though it's specified to be "more than" that). Additionally, the base tends to be longer/wider than the height. If the base is also at least 1,000 feet (304.8 m), that's about 2.7 times larger than the 112 m required (and that's just with the naked eye). How visible is the fortress city of Chi-Town from space? And the dimensions are probably actually larger than that.

I genuinely don't know the answer, but just something that crossed my mind. That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:24 pm
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Hotrod wrote:

Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).[/quote]

Killer satellites did blast a lot of communications satellites though.




Quote:
It's entirely possible that the atmosphere was occluded for 50 years. 300 years have now passed, and the ashes in the stratosphere are long gone. There are lots of lights for the Orbitals to see down below, and those lights would be very obvious.


250 years without the ashes to be picky and some of that was going to be rebuilding. And just because they're they're doesn't mean they're seen from orbit and if they are, who's lights they belong too.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
At what point do you decide to kill everything coming up?

Several issues with that argument. First, there is no evidence in canon that everything that has come up Earth's gravity well has tried to fight/kill the Orbitals. I'm not aware of any power described in the worldbooks or sourcebooks that's sent anything up with hostile intent. The biggest fight the Orbitals have had from aliens came from the Archons, and they didn't come from Earth. Second, the blockade isn't just a bad judgment call. As we've been discussing, it's a colossal resource drain required of societies that struggle to find air to breathe and water to drink. Third, there's plenty of space in... space. There's no need to pounce right away on anything coming up the well when the Orbitals could spend maybe an hour or so studying the launched vehicle and trying to establish whether it's an actual threat.


I didn't say everything coming up was hostile. In fact we know some wasn't. However, they was enough that was, before those attempts, that the orbitals decided to blockade the planet. And there's got to be something still coming up or they'd of stopped the blockade as it is a drain on resources.

If every birthday when you went to blow out the candles the cake exploded, at what age would you stop blowing the candles out? At what age would you threaten violence to the person who brings up the traditional birthday spanking? People do have limits and when those limits are reached they don't deal with the situation any more. That might harm innocents but at that point they don't care. They're protecting themselves.


Quote:
You're talking about what "might" be, but what's presented in MiO is what "is," and what "is" is a human society in orbit using Golden Age Tech, including radios, and speaking the same languages. What was up there is common knowledge; Erin Tarn's books are widely distributed and read/listened to. What is up there hasn't changed all that much.


Sure they are but there's radios and there's radios. I also wouldn't call it common knowledge or everyone would know that CS equipment was just redesigned NEMA stuff. I also don't think everyone has heard of Erin Tarn or her works. A good number have, which is why she's wanted by the CS but I couldn't say she's common or that everyone has read/listened to all her works. And when was she in space to say what is there?


Quote:
Shakespearian English can be a little difficult for some to grasp at first, but it's quite comprehensible. MiO specifically talks about the difficulties of coming up Earth's gravity well and interacting with the Orbitals, and language is not one of the barriers it mentions. Your argument requires modifying the setting described. It also requires a level of ignorance that just isn't plausible.


Not to everyone. Some don't get it at all. Others only some. I have a hard time reading Hamlet but no problem with Twelfth Night. I'm also not modifying the setting. The moon colony was made up of people from America, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Australia, Belgium and Russia. Even keeping English as the official language, there's going to be language drift. And they're going to have an accent of their own. How heavy that accent is I don't know but the heavier it is the harder they will be to understand. It could even vary from person to person with different sections of the moon colony having their own slang. Remember the movie Crocodile Dundee? He'd say something and she'd say "What?" Then he had to explain his English. It'd be like that only magnified.


Quote:
Sure, the Coalition has a list of things that its troops kill on sight. As in "IF it's one of these things, THEN you kill it on sight. The Coalition does not kill everyone and everything they meet on sight. They don't do that with everyone and everything entering their territory.


They do it with enough and if innocents get killed too. Oh well.


Quote:
If a book's content is nonsensical without additional information, then the book's content is nonsensical. You're defended MiO by inventing new content justifying its nonsense, and now you're prevaricating and saying that your defense is "a possible reason." Creating that additional information as a defense of the nonsensical content is altering that content. If your defense amounts to "yeah, it's nonsense, but it could make sense IF..." and making up stuff that isn't in canon, then I don't understand why you're making any argument in MiO's defense at all.


It doesn't have to make sense to us. It just needs to make sense to those in the book. If that means CS soldiers open fire on a group because they see evidence of magic, and to the CS magic is evil and should be destroyed on sight, it makes sense.

I'm also not prevaricating or adding anything. I don't need to. It's all in the books. Just because their reasons seem like nonsense to a reader doesn't mean that they are nonsense to them. Or to other readers.

I don't know why the Orbitals continue the blockade. I just know they have a reason to or they wouldn't do it. Maybe the who is left open to allow us the players to decide.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's true. They are useful things. However, humans got along without for centuries so they're not critical.

Humans got by for millennia without electricity, vehicles, basic sanitation, medicine, and metal tools. Would you consider any of those "not critical?"

Satellites can and do save lives every day. If your life has ever depended on a satellite for navigation, communication, or weather prediction, then it's pretty darn critical to you.


Considering humans still do, no I wouldn't say they're critical. They are very convenient but not critical.

Those dependent on such things are going to die when they're not available. That's one of the reasons why millions died with the rifts and after.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And the Orbitals keep getting monsters and aliens coming at them.

I note that none of your quotes back up your claim that civilizations on the surface shoot everyone they meet, even in the extreme case of the Coalition. The C.S. approach is evil, but it has never been indiscriminate. Only the Orbitals are so extreme in their approach, and nothing in MiO justifies this difference.


I never said I did even though, I did post there the CS can and will. As far as the Orbitals go, they're got their reasons. As far as they're concerned the Earth is deigned them and in the past. There's no future for them there. And not every Orbital does shoot on sight.

MiO page 57
Quote:
The large colonies, except the Outcasts, are participants in the containment of the planet Earth and the immediate destruction of aliens and monsters . The Outcast station is one of the few havens for Earthlings and aliens alike .




Code:
[quote="Sambot"]
They kill more than d-bees. They kill humans too. Read above.[/quote]
They do not kill humans indiscriminately; they only kill humans who they regard as threats (and they often won't even shoot those on sight), mainly magic users and political foes.


And if someone gets hit in the crossfire or is collateral damage, oh well. They don't need sympathizers anyway.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Its on page 83 in MiO.

No, it's not. That's an optional weapon system to put on a custom-built spacecraft, not a satellite. The killer satellites start on p85.


And satellites are deployed by larger vehicles.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Nothing is the same after 300 years. Language drifts. Accents develop. Sure they might get lucky and talk talk with someone they understand. If they're listening for someone and nothing has been said if they're still listening. Both gave up and focused on more pressing concerns.

If that were the case, then people wouldn't understand pre-Rifts recordings. They do, and that's canon. Your argument in defense of the setting requires altering the setting and is therefore invalid.


No alteration at all. You're average Power Armor, Robot, or vehicle isn't equipped with a phonograph to play wax cylinders, or most types of recording media that was available in the past hundred years except maybe CDs or USB ports and if you don't have the right cable you're not going to be able to play that MP3 Player. To do play such media you need the right player. One that works. You might be able to adapt something, like Spoke using 1930's technology to work a tricorder but most people aren't Spock. So most media isn't going to be read by most people. It'll be sold or taken to someone else.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You misunderstand me again and you say there won't be problems communicating 300 years from now. You said satellites didn't extend communication and now you're trying to prove that they do and I don't understand.


Try reading this. It may help.


:frust: :frust: :frust: Thank you but I don't need the help. You said one thing and then said the opposite.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How solid are the communications between ARCHIE and the Satellite? Constant or occasional? Do the orbitals have direct contact or do they have to bounce a signal to it?

Sourcebook 1, p93 (revised/expanded edition) states that his satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, which gives him and his robots constant line-of-sight communication with the satellite. The communication is described as "reliable."

When Orbitals talk to each other, if the planet is in their way, they will bounce signals. Otherwise, they could communicate directly.


Cool! Thanks. :) So we know that satellite in a fixed spot in orbit. How does the space ARCHIE know ARCHIE 3 is using it?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.

Orbits aren't fixed points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:55 am
  

User avatar
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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
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Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).


Killer satellites did blast a lot of communications satellites though.

Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
It's entirely possible that the atmosphere was occluded for 50 years. 300 years have now passed, and the ashes in the stratosphere are long gone. There are lots of lights for the Orbitals to see down below, and those lights would be very obvious.


250 years without the ashes to be picky and some of that was going to be rebuilding. And just because they're they're doesn't mean they're seen from orbit and if they are, who's lights they belong too.

I cannot accept that people in orbit would look down, see the lights of cities for 250 years, detect the radio signals, and assume without evidence that they all belong to hostile alien invaders. If you can, then we have very different views of human nature.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
At what point do you decide to kill everything coming up?

Several issues with that argument. First, there is no evidence in canon that everything that has come up Earth's gravity well has tried to fight/kill the Orbitals. I'm not aware of any power described in the worldbooks or sourcebooks that's sent anything up with hostile intent. The biggest fight the Orbitals have had from aliens came from the Archons, and they didn't come from Earth. Second, the blockade isn't just a bad judgment call. As we've been discussing, it's a colossal resource drain required of societies that struggle to find air to breathe and water to drink. Third, there's plenty of space in... space. There's no need to pounce right away on anything coming up the well when the Orbitals could spend maybe an hour or so studying the launched vehicle and trying to establish whether it's an actual threat.


I didn't say everything coming up was hostile. In fact we know some wasn't. However, they was enough that was, before those attempts, that the orbitals decided to blockade the planet. And there's got to be something still coming up or they'd of stopped the blockade as it is a drain on resources.

If every birthday when you went to blow out the candles the cake exploded, at what age would you stop blowing the candles out? At what age would you threaten violence to the person who brings up the traditional birthday spanking? People do have limits and when those limits are reached they don't deal with the situation any more. That might harm innocents but at that point they don't care. They're protecting themselves.

MiO mentions no direct attacks against the Orbitals by anyone coming up the well or them hitting their limits, only their decision to kill them all. If you're defending MiO as written, why do you keep inventing rationale that isn't in the book?


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
You're talking about what "might" be, but what's presented in MiO is what "is," and what "is" is a human society in orbit using Golden Age Tech, including radios, and speaking the same languages. What was up there is common knowledge; Erin Tarn's books are widely distributed and read/listened to. What is up there hasn't changed all that much.


Sure they are but there's radios and there's radios. I also wouldn't call it common knowledge or everyone would know that CS equipment was just redesigned NEMA stuff. I also don't think everyone has heard of Erin Tarn or her works. A good number have, which is why she's wanted by the CS but I couldn't say she's common or that everyone has read/listened to all her works. And when was she in space to say what is there?


What do you mean, "there's radios and there's radios?" Are you running back to your previous argument that you can't use AM for FM signals and therefore people in the future won't be able to detect or interpret any foreign radio signals?

As for Erin Tarn not being well-known, here's a quote from Coalition War Campaign's description of Erin Tarn, p14: "In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn ' s books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories where Erin's accounts of history and her journeys are read aloud to the illiterate masses and taught by rogue scholars and scientists throughout the continent."
That's a pretty good distribution, I'd say.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Shakespearian English can be a little difficult for some to grasp at first, but it's quite comprehensible. MiO specifically talks about the difficulties of coming up Earth's gravity well and interacting with the Orbitals, and language is not one of the barriers it mentions. Your argument requires modifying the setting described. It also requires a level of ignorance that just isn't plausible.


Not to everyone. Some don't get it at all. Others only some. I have a hard time reading Hamlet but no problem with Twelfth Night. I'm also not modifying the setting. The moon colony was made up of people from America, Mexico, Brazil, Canada, Australia, Belgium and Russia. Even keeping English as the official language, there's going to be language drift. And they're going to have an accent of their own. How heavy that accent is I don't know but the heavier it is the harder they will be to understand. It could even vary from person to person with different sections of the moon colony having their own slang. Remember the movie Crocodile Dundee? He'd say something and she'd say "What?" Then he had to explain his English. It'd be like that only magnified.

Some people have trouble understanding Shakespeare and Australians, therefore the Orbitals will be incomprehensible to people on Rifts Earth and vice-versa? No. You're grasping at straws and making up content that isn't in the book to support your conclusion. If you don't want to call that "modifying the setting" then we likely have different definitions of "modify."


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sure, the Coalition has a list of things that its troops kill on sight. As in "IF it's one of these things, THEN you kill it on sight. The Coalition does not kill everyone and everything they meet on sight. They don't do that with everyone and everything entering their territory.


They do it with enough and if innocents get killed too. Oh well.

Sure, the Coalition does this with some groups without good cause and innocents die. That's what makes the Coalition evil and stupid. The Orbitals do this with all groups on the surface. What does that make the Orbitals?


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
If a book's content is nonsensical without additional information, then the book's content is nonsensical. You're defended MiO by inventing new content justifying its nonsense, and now you're prevaricating and saying that your defense is "a possible reason." Creating that additional information as a defense of the nonsensical content is altering that content. If your defense amounts to "yeah, it's nonsense, but it could make sense IF..." and making up stuff that isn't in canon, then I don't understand why you're making any argument in MiO's defense at all.


It doesn't have to make sense to us. It just needs to make sense to those in the book. If that means CS soldiers open fire on a group because they see evidence of magic, and to the CS magic is evil and should be destroyed on sight, it makes sense.

I'm also not prevaricating or adding anything. I don't need to. It's all in the books. Just because their reasons seem like nonsense to a reader doesn't mean that they are nonsense to them. Or to other readers.

I don't know why the Orbitals continue the blockade. I just know they have a reason to or they wouldn't do it. Maybe the who is left open to allow us the players to decide.

The historical and cultural reasons for the Coalition's policies have been very well-established from the days of RMB. The Orbital's policies defy reason, common sense, human nature, basic economics, and physics, and the explanation for these policies amounts to a couple of vague sentences.

You are prevaricating. You offered a defense, then said that your defense may or may not be valid, as if a bunch of speculative "maybes" that aren't supported by the text amounts to an argument. It doesn't. That's a prevaricating approach that can't be validated or invalidated and is therefore of no use to this conversation.

I can accept that MiO works for you. I think it doesn't merit your stubborn defensive efforts, but hey, if you enjoy it, have at it.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's true. They are useful things. However, humans got along without for centuries so they're not critical.

Humans got by for millennia without electricity, vehicles, basic sanitation, medicine, and metal tools. Would you consider any of those "not critical?"

Satellites can and do save lives every day. If your life has ever depended on a satellite for navigation, communication, or weather prediction, then it's pretty darn critical to you.


Considering humans still do, no I wouldn't say they're critical. They are very convenient but not critical.

Those dependent on such things are going to die when they're not available. That's one of the reasons why millions died with the rifts and after.

You seem to think that people fighting for their lives should only focus on their basic survival needs. That approach would quickly lead to defeat. People fighting for their lives should be scrapping for every useful advantage they can get. This includes the benefits of satellites.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And the Orbitals keep getting monsters and aliens coming at them.

I note that none of your quotes back up your claim that civilizations on the surface shoot everyone they meet, even in the extreme case of the Coalition. The C.S. approach is evil, but it has never been indiscriminate. Only the Orbitals are so extreme in their approach, and nothing in MiO justifies this difference.


I never said I did even though, I did post there the CS can and will. As far as the Orbitals go, they're got their reasons. As far as they're concerned the Earth is deigned them and in the past. There's no future for them there. And not every Orbital does shoot on sight.

Ok, so you now accept that no culture is as indiscriminate as the Orbitals, and that no culture simply shoots everyone who strolls into their territory. Good! We're making progress.

And yes, every orbital involved in the blockade does shoot on sight, at least all of them who are involved in containing Earth (which is all except Outcast Station).


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They kill more than d-bees. They kill humans too. Read above.

They do not kill humans indiscriminately; they only kill humans who they regard as threats (and they often won't even shoot those on sight), mainly magic users and political foes.


And if someone gets hit in the crossfire or is collateral damage, oh well. They don't need sympathizers anyway.

You seem remarkably critical of the Coalition for someone who's been defending the Orbital's "kill everyone" approach.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Its on page 83 in MiO.

No, it's not. That's an optional weapon system to put on a custom-built spacecraft, not a satellite. The killer satellites start on p85.


And satellites are deployed by larger vehicles.

I ran some numbers based on satellite weapon ranges, you mentioned a weapon that isn't on the satellites, and you seem to think that you've made a point here. I'm waiting to see one.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Nothing is the same after 300 years. Language drifts. Accents develop. Sure they might get lucky and talk talk with someone they understand. If they're listening for someone and nothing has been said if they're still listening. Both gave up and focused on more pressing concerns.

If that were the case, then people wouldn't understand pre-Rifts recordings. They do, and that's canon. Your argument in defense of the setting requires altering the setting and is therefore invalid.


No alteration at all. You're average Power Armor, Robot, or vehicle isn't equipped with a phonograph to play wax cylinders, or most types of recording media that was available in the past hundred years except maybe CDs or USB ports and if you don't have the right cable you're not going to be able to play that MP3 Player. To do play such media you need the right player. One that works. You might be able to adapt something, like Spoke using 1930's technology to work a tricorder but most people aren't Spock. So most media isn't going to be read by most people. It'll be sold or taken to someone else.

Both Rifts surface tech and Orbital tech is based on Golden Age technology, not wax cylinders. That's a specious argument.
If you understand what the cables connect to, you can create your own connection, and people whose lives depend on this kind of tech on the surface and in space would also have access to folks who can do that (like operators).
You seem to assume that no-one in Rifts has a better understanding of radios than you do today. That's not a reasonable assumption.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You misunderstand me again and you say there won't be problems communicating 300 years from now. You said satellites didn't extend communication and now you're trying to prove that they do and I don't understand.


Try reading this. It may help.


:frust: :frust: :frust: Thank you but I don't need the help. You said one thing and then said the opposite.

I suspect that you don't understand a lot about how radios and radio signals work, and that probably makes this hard for you. It's hard for me to understand the source of your frustration, since you've deleted the context of each thread as you've replied. When did I say one thing and then say the opposite?



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How solid are the communications between ARCHIE and the Satellite? Constant or occasional? Do the orbitals have direct contact or do they have to bounce a signal to it?

Sourcebook 1, p93 (revised/expanded edition) states that his satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, which gives him and his robots constant line-of-sight communication with the satellite. The communication is described as "reliable."

When Orbitals talk to each other, if the planet is in their way, they will bounce signals. Otherwise, they could communicate directly.


Cool! Thanks. :) So we know that satellite in a fixed spot in orbit. How does the space ARCHIE know ARCHIE 3 is using it

I don't know if ARCHIE-7 knows about ARCHIE-3 using the satellite or if ARCHIE-3 knows about ARCHIE-7 or the Orbitals for that matter.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.

Orbits aren't fixed points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point


Lagrange points move with the orbital body; they're in synch with Earth's orbital position, but not it's rotation. Also, ley lines in space are just weird, especially when one considers that the entire Graveyard is a nexus big enough to cover an L4 or L5 debris field (a gigantic volume).

_________________
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Bizantium and the Northern Isles, p65 map
Arenas of Atlantis, Rifter 69
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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
Posts: 525
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Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).


Killer satellites did blast a lot of communications satellites though.

Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:25 am
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).


Killer satellites did blast a lot of communications satellites though.

Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.


I'd try.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:09 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Quote:
Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


Probably, but if they do, they don't seem to be aimed there.


Quote:
I cannot accept that people in orbit would look down, see the lights of cities for 250 years, detect the radio signals, and assume without evidence that they all belong to hostile alien invaders. If you can, then we have very different views of human nature.


That's presuming they are looking down. Most though have put the Earth behind them and those there now, have no loyalty to Earth at all. Space is their home. Not Earth. If they are looking, they're going to see an Earth, that is not the Earth of their ancestors. Most maps are useless. There's no nations they recognize. Why should they believe there are friendlies down there?

I'm glad you have an optimistic opinion of humanity and there are some who'd share your opinion. Most don't but Outcast station is more tolerant.



Quote:
MiO mentions no direct attacks against the Orbitals by anyone coming up the well or them hitting their limits, only their decision to kill them all. If you're defending MiO as written, why do you keep inventing rationale that isn't in the book?


I don't need to invent anything. It's in the book page 61. It says right there why the killer satellites were there and are maintained. If there was nothing coming up why would killer satellites need to be replaced?


Quote:
What do you mean, "there's radios and there's radios?" Are you running back to your previous argument that you can't use AM for FM signals and therefore people in the future won't be able to detect or interpret any foreign radio signals?


:frust:
It's exactly as I said,
Quote:
There's radios and there's radios.
. Not every radio can pick up signals transmitted by other radios. Just like not every computer can use media or programs from another computer. For all we know the Orbitals are Apple and the CS is Windows.




Quote:
As for Erin Tarn not being well-known, here's a quote from Coalition War Campaign's description of Erin Tarn, p14: "In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn ' s books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories where Erin's accounts of history and her journeys are read aloud to the illiterate masses and taught by rogue scholars and scientists throughout the continent."
That's a pretty good distribution, I'd say.


Not really as you're lumping three different groups into one. How many people are in the CS's educated elite? How many are in are in the uneducated masses in CS? How many people are outside the CS and out of that number, how many have heard of her? Just in North America? How about the rest of the world?


Quote:
Some people have trouble understanding Shakespeare and Australians, therefore the Orbitals will be incomprehensible to people on Rifts Earth and vice-versa? No. You're grasping at straws and making up content that isn't in the book to support your conclusion. If you don't want to call that "modifying the setting" then we likely have different definitions of "modify."


I think you really miss understand how much language drift and accents can change a language. It is possible to completely understand other people speaking the same language. I've given examples but it seems you think English is English when it isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
English has changed a lot over the years. English is going change after hundreds of years. English will also drift from location with a 300 year separation.

I'm not saying communication will be impossible, although accents and slang can make it seem so but it may not be that easy either. For example, what do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?


Quote:
Sure, the Coalition does this with some groups without good cause and innocents die. That's what makes the Coalition evil and stupid. The Orbitals do this with all groups on the surface. What does that make the Orbitals?


I don't know. What does self preservation make a people?



Quote:
The historical and cultural reasons for the Coalition's policies have been very well-established from the days of RMB. The Orbital's policies defy reason, common sense, human nature, basic economics, and physics, and the explanation for these policies amounts to a couple of vague sentences.

You are prevaricating. You offered a defense, then said that your defense may or may not be valid, as if a bunch of speculative "maybes" that aren't supported by the text amounts to an argument. It doesn't. That's a prevaricating approach that can't be validated or invalidated and is therefore of no use to this conversation.

I can accept that MiO works for you. I think it doesn't merit your stubborn defensive efforts, but hey, if you enjoy it, have at it.


I'm not. Their reasons are laid out in the book. That you don't like them does not make them any less valid. You constantly attack them because you disagree with them and their reasons don't make sense to you. Yet they don't have to. Further more how does the
Quote:
The Orbital's policies defy reason, common sense, human nature, basic economics, and physics,
??? Because what's written about them isn't to your standards? They're in a fragile position and there is not going back for them. Those that tried died. It's right there in the book. In English. Yet you keep insisting they're wrong because you disagree with them. And that there wouldn't be communication problems. Its in English.

How is it reasonable, make sense, or in human nature to continue to waste lives and precious resources trying to go home when home no longer exists? How does it help economically? Physics? There's anomalies everywhere and the space-time continuum seems to be tearing itself apart. Physics left with the Rifts. Isn't it better to cut losses and focus on surviving?

Why is it that every nation on Earth can take defensive measures but very vulnerable Orbital Colonies can't? Not only is it wrong for them to do so, you condemn them for it. How does that make sense? They live in bubbles in an environment that will kill them. One monster could easily cause massive damage and loss of life and yet you think they should welcome them with open arms? :eek:


Quote:
You seem to think that people fighting for their lives should only focus on their basic survival needs. That approach would quickly lead to defeat. People fighting for their lives should be scrapping for every useful advantage they can get. This includes the benefits of satellites.


How's a satellite supposed to help without means to communicate with that satellite? You need power, which probably needs fuel. Do you contact the satellite or run the can opener?



Quote:
Ok, so you now accept that no culture is as indiscriminate as the Orbitals, and that no culture simply shoots everyone who strolls into their territory. Good! We're making progress.

And yes, every orbital involved in the blockade does shoot on sight, at least all of them who are involved in containing Earth (which is all except Outcast Station).


I don't think so since your putting words in my mouth. I never said that that the Orbitals weren't indiscriminate. I also didn't say that all cultures on Earth were tolerant.

Why is it okay for the CS to shoot on sight but not the Orbitals? They're in a much more precarious position. And how many cultures shoot to kill for no reason? Even the Orbitals have a reason.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And if someone gets hit in the crossfire or is collateral damage, oh well. They don't need sympathizers anyway.

You seem remarkably critical of the Coalition for someone who's been defending the Orbital's "kill everyone" approach.


Here's that failure to communicate again.

I didn't say I was critical of the Coalition shooting on sight nor is my post being critical of it. It's an example of the Coalition feelings after such a situation happens. Better to kill one innocent than allow hundreds of citizens to be killed. I don't agree with it. Not even all CS troopers or Orbitals agree with it. A good majority however does.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And satellites are deployed by larger vehicles.

I ran some numbers based on satellite weapon ranges, you mentioned a weapon that isn't on the satellites, and you seem to think that you've made a point here. I'm waiting to see one.


You ran numbers based on common satellites. Not all satellites possible. Those larger vehicles also deploy killer satellites as well as maintain them. So they would be part of the defense network.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Both Rifts surface tech and Orbital tech is based on Golden Age technology, not wax cylinders. That's a specious argument.
If you understand what the cables connect to, you can create your own connection, and people whose lives depend on this kind of tech on the surface and in space would also have access to folks who can do that (like operators).
You seem to assume that no-one in Rifts has a better understanding of radios than you do today. That's not a reasonable assumption.


Not everyone is an engineer who can tell which cable goes to what. You also said that people would be able to understand Pre-Refits recordings. I'm saying not everyone does. Only those with the proper equipment can play them. Otherwise, it's like saying everyone has a computer that can work every operating system, that can accept every cartridge, every size floppy disc, with every drive (zip, jaz, tape, cassette) and so on. How many laptops have a 5.25 in floppy drive? How many modern computers can even read a floppy drive without external support? Yet everyone in rifts has the means of reading and playing every media type there is? I don't think so.

Just because something is based on Golden Age Weaponry does not mean that it will continue to be compatible.


Quote:
I suspect that you don't understand a lot about how radios and radio signals work, and that probably makes this hard for you. It's hard for me to understand the source of your frustration, since you've deleted the context of each thread as you've replied. When did I say one thing and then say the opposite?


You said it here. The bold is mine.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165431&start=100#p3053393

Quote:
Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites
Quote:
are there so that you can relay signals
around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.


They don't and then they do.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Cool! Thanks. :) So we know that satellite in a fixed spot in orbit. How does the space ARCHIE know ARCHIE 3 is using it

I don't know if ARCHIE-7 knows about ARCHIE-3 using the satellite or if ARCHIE-3 knows about ARCHIE-7 or the Orbitals for that matter.


So for all we know, that Satellite can't be used to communicate with the Orbitals? :| That helps how? :-?



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.

Orbits aren't fixed points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point


Lagrange points move with the orbital body; they're in synch with Earth's orbital position, but not it's rotation. Also, ley lines in space are just weird, especially when one considers that the entire Graveyard is a nexus big enough to cover an L4 or L5 debris field (a gigantic volume).
[/quote]

That's a big amount of space and orbitals shouldn't be concerned?

And I was looking for geostationary. Couldn't get the spelling lagrange popped up.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:11 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Atmospheric conditions are frequency-dependent; there's lots of bandwidth in the EM spectrum that goes right through clouds. Killer satellites blasting things would have no effect on radio communications (unless those radios rely on the satellites getting blasted).


Killer satellites did blast a lot of communications satellites though.

Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.


I'd try.


I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:28 am
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Do you think that means the Orbitals have no radios capable of reaching the surface?


Probably, but if they do, they don't seem to be aimed there.

Ok, so your argument is that they can, but no-one would want to try. We have different views of human nature. I can accept that.



Sambot wrote:
Quote:
I cannot accept that people in orbit would look down, see the lights of cities for 250 years, detect the radio signals, and assume without evidence that they all belong to hostile alien invaders. If you can, then we have very different views of human nature.


That's presuming they are looking down. Most though have put the Earth behind them and those there now, have no loyalty to Earth at all. Space is their home. Not Earth. If they are looking, they're going to see an Earth, that is not the Earth of their ancestors. Most maps are useless. There's no nations they recognize. Why should they believe there are friendlies down there?

I'm glad you have an optimistic opinion of humanity and there are some who'd share your opinion. Most don't but Outcast station is more tolerant.

That's a burden of proof fallacy. Friendlies existed before the Coming of the Rifts, and MiO's Orbitals believe that none exist today, but MiO presents no good argument or evidence to explain this conclusion. Sure, you can invent some (and you've been busy doing so in this discussion), but the book itself fails to do so. It would be like RUE presenting the current policies of the Coalition with zero explanation or context explaining why they do what they do and how they got to where they are.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
MiO mentions no direct attacks against the Orbitals by anyone coming up the well or them hitting their limits, only their decision to kill them all. If you're defending MiO as written, why do you keep inventing rationale that isn't in the book?


I don't need to invent anything. It's in the book page 61. It says right there why the killer satellites were there and are maintained. If there was nothing coming up why would killer satellites need to be replaced?

p61 is insufficient, and your logic is circular. They need killer satellites because the book says so, and the book says so because they need killer satellites.

Let's consider this from another perspective. We have the stats for killer satellites and some presumption that stuff occasionally tries to come up the well. Ok. What tries to come up the well? Could the player characters get involved in helping the Orbitals? How do we put on such a fight when all we have to play with is the killer satellites and some spaceship creation rules? MiO only models this from the perspective of the people trying to get into orbit, not from the perspective of the Orbitals.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
What do you mean, "there's radios and there's radios?" Are you running back to your previous argument that you can't use AM for FM signals and therefore people in the future won't be able to detect or interpret any foreign radio signals?


:frust:
It's exactly as I said,
Quote:
There's radios and there's radios.
. Not every radio can pick up signals transmitted by other radios. Just like not every computer can use media or programs from another computer. For all we know the Orbitals are Apple and the CS is Windows.

You seem to have trouble accepting that people of Rifts Earth and Orbitals, who have future tech and would depend on radios far more than you do, would far exceed your own equipment capabilities and knowledge.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
As for Erin Tarn not being well-known, here's a quote from Coalition War Campaign's description of Erin Tarn, p14: "In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn ' s books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories where Erin's accounts of history and her journeys are read aloud to the illiterate masses and taught by rogue scholars and scientists throughout the continent."
That's a pretty good distribution, I'd say.


Not really as you're lumping three different groups into one. How many people are in the CS's educated elite? How many are in are in the uneducated masses in CS? How many people are outside the CS and out of that number, how many have heard of her? Just in North America? How about the rest of the world?

That's a quote from the book, not my own invention. If you want more information, read the rest of the description in CWC.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Some people have trouble understanding Shakespeare and Australians, therefore the Orbitals will be incomprehensible to people on Rifts Earth and vice-versa? No. You're grasping at straws and making up content that isn't in the book to support your conclusion. If you don't want to call that "modifying the setting" then we likely have different definitions of "modify."


I think you really miss understand how much language drift and accents can change a language. It is possible to completely understand other people speaking the same language. I've given examples but it seems you think English is English when it isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
English has changed a lot over the years. English is going change after hundreds of years. English will also drift from location with a 300 year separation.

I'm not saying communication will be impossible, although accents and slang can make it seem so but it may not be that easy either. For example, what do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

We agree. There would be lingual shifts, and those shifts would not make communication impossible.

This invalidates your original argument that they wouldn't be able to understand each other.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sure, the Coalition does this with some groups without good cause and innocents die. That's what makes the Coalition evil and stupid. The Orbitals do this with all groups on the surface. What does that make the Orbitals?


I don't know. What does self preservation make a people?

You call it self-preservation, I call it mass murder and a crime against humanity.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
The historical and cultural reasons for the Coalition's policies have been very well-established from the days of RMB. The Orbital's policies defy reason, common sense, human nature, basic economics, and physics, and the explanation for these policies amounts to a couple of vague sentences.

You are prevaricating. You offered a defense, then said that your defense may or may not be valid, as if a bunch of speculative "maybes" that aren't supported by the text amounts to an argument. It doesn't. That's a prevaricating approach that can't be validated or invalidated and is therefore of no use to this conversation.

I can accept that MiO works for you. I think it doesn't merit your stubborn defensive efforts, but hey, if you enjoy it, have at it.


I'm not. Their reasons are laid out in the book. That you don't like them does not make them any less valid. You constantly attack them because you disagree with them and their reasons don't make sense to you. Yet they don't have to. Further more how does the
Quote:
The Orbital's policies defy reason, common sense, human nature, basic economics, and physics,
??? Because what's written about them isn't to your standards? They're in a fragile position and there is not going back for them. Those that tried died. It's right there in the book. In English. Yet you keep insisting they're wrong because you disagree with them. And that there wouldn't be communication problems. Its in English.

How is it reasonable, make sense, or in human nature to continue to waste lives and precious resources trying to go home when home no longer exists? How does it help economically? Physics? There's anomalies everywhere and the space-time continuum seems to be tearing itself apart. Physics left with the Rifts. Isn't it better to cut losses and focus on surviving?

Why is it that every nation on Earth can take defensive measures but very vulnerable Orbital Colonies can't? Not only is it wrong for them to do so, you condemn them for it. How does that make sense? They live in bubbles in an environment that will kill them. One monster could easily cause massive damage and loss of life and yet you think they should welcome them with open arms? :eek:

With every reply in this conversation, you have either invented or stuck to your invented supporting arguments for MiO, and in your previous reply you couched these terms with a bunch of "maybes." That's an evasive way to argue, and that's what prevaricating means.

The Orbital's homeworld and the rest of humanity still existed and still exists, they can literally see them, there is no reason why they can't communicate, Earth is abundant with air, water, and other resources the Orbitals desperately need, and the killer satellite network as described requires ludicrous amounts of effort and resources.

There's only one human nation in Rifts canon that kills everyone who tries to approach them, and that's the Orbitals. That's not "defensive measures." It's madness. The whole premise is madness. The Orbitals are hurting themselves as much as the planet with this indiscriminate killing and destruction.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
You seem to think that people fighting for their lives should only focus on their basic survival needs. That approach would quickly lead to defeat. People fighting for their lives should be scrapping for every useful advantage they can get. This includes the benefits of satellites.


How's a satellite supposed to help without means to communicate with that satellite? You need power, which probably needs fuel. Do you contact the satellite or run the can opener?

You're making stuff up to support your position again. Radios are common tech in Rifts. They're built into environmental body armor, power armor, and robots. They're cheap and widely available. They're included in starting equipment for a great many O.C.C.'s. Cultures that can support that kind of tech aren't going to have trouble detecting and communicating with the Orbitals.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ok, so you now accept that no culture is as indiscriminate as the Orbitals, and that no culture simply shoots everyone who strolls into their territory. Good! We're making progress.

And yes, every orbital involved in the blockade does shoot on sight, at least all of them who are involved in containing Earth (which is all except Outcast Station).


I don't think so since your putting words in my mouth. I never said that that the Orbitals weren't indiscriminate. I also didn't say that all cultures on Earth were tolerant.


Why is it okay for the CS to shoot on sight but not the Orbitals? They're in a much more precarious position. And how many cultures shoot to kill for no reason? Even the Orbitals have a reason.

Your insistence that the CS shoots everyone they meet on sight despite having no evidence or reference to back that up is noted. If that's how you play the C.S., have fun with that.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And if someone gets hit in the crossfire or is collateral damage, oh well. They don't need sympathizers anyway.

You seem remarkably critical of the Coalition for someone who's been defending the Orbital's "kill everyone" approach.


Here's that failure to communicate again.

I didn't say I was critical of the Coalition shooting on sight nor is my post being critical of it. It's an example of the Coalition feelings after such a situation happens. Better to kill one innocent than allow hundreds of citizens to be killed. I don't agree with it. Not even all CS troopers or Orbitals agree with it. A good majority however does.

The Coalition doesn't shoot everyone on sight in canon. If you're saying they do, then you're inventing your own setting, which is fine, but doesn't give us a basis for discussing this topic.

The Orbitals do shoot everyone on sight in canon, and any reasonable explanation of why they do this requires arguments and supporting evidence that isn't in MiO.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
And satellites are deployed by larger vehicles.

I ran some numbers based on satellite weapon ranges, you mentioned a weapon that isn't on the satellites, and you seem to think that you've made a point here. I'm waiting to see one.


You ran numbers based on common satellites. Not all satellites possible. Those larger vehicles also deploy killer satellites as well as maintain them. So they would be part of the defense network.

Ok, so it takes inventing your own killer satellites to make that killer satellite network make more sense. This falls into your pattern of modifying the setting to justify the setting. Do you often play adventures in MiO? Is this your favorite part of Rifts?


Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Both Rifts surface tech and Orbital tech is based on Golden Age technology, not wax cylinders. That's a specious argument.
If you understand what the cables connect to, you can create your own connection, and people whose lives depend on this kind of tech on the surface and in space would also have access to folks who can do that (like operators).
You seem to assume that no-one in Rifts has a better understanding of radios than you do today. That's not a reasonable assumption.


Not everyone is an engineer who can tell which cable goes to what. You also said that people would be able to understand Pre-Refits recordings. I'm saying not everyone does. Only those with the proper equipment can play them. Otherwise, it's like saying everyone has a computer that can work every operating system, that can accept every cartridge, every size floppy disc, with every drive (zip, jaz, tape, cassette) and so on. How many laptops have a 5.25 in floppy drive? How many modern computers can even read a floppy drive without external support? Yet everyone in rifts has the means of reading and playing every media type there is? I don't think so.

Just because something is based on Golden Age Weaponry does not mean that it will continue to be compatible.

Universal jacks are a thing in Rifts, and information/signal technology trends towards compatibility, not away from it. Your compatibility argument is invalid.


Sambot wrote:
Quote:
I suspect that you don't understand a lot about how radios and radio signals work, and that probably makes this hard for you. It's hard for me to understand the source of your frustration, since you've deleted the context of each thread as you've replied. When did I say one thing and then say the opposite?


You said it here. The bold is mine.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165431&start=100#p3053393

Quote:
Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites
Quote:
are there so that you can relay signals
around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.


They don't and then they do.

I'll rephrase for you:

Real-life communications satellites don't exist to extend the range of a signal in a straight line. They exist so that we can bounce signals around obstacles, mainly the planet itself. Boosting the straight-line range of a signal is a matter of antennas, electrical power, and electronic amplifiers, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to boost that straight-line range than it is to put a satellite in orbit. Thus satellites boost range along the surface of the Earth because they go around the horizon, but you can send a signal much farther into space without using satellites at all.

Sambot wrote:
Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Cool! Thanks. :) So we know that satellite in a fixed spot in orbit. How does the space ARCHIE know ARCHIE 3 is using it

I don't know if ARCHIE-7 knows about ARCHIE-3 using the satellite or if ARCHIE-3 knows about ARCHIE-7 or the Orbitals for that matter.


So for all we know, that Satellite can't be used to communicate with the Orbitals? :| That helps how? :-?

That satellite demonstrates that communications to and from space are possible, which leads to the question of why ARCHIE is the only one who has done so.



Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I believe it's in a fixed orbital point where a station was.

Orbits aren't fixed points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point


Lagrange points move with the orbital body; they're in synch with Earth's orbital position, but not it's rotation. Also, ley lines in space are just weird, especially when one considers that the entire Graveyard is a nexus big enough to cover an L4 or L5 debris field (a gigantic volume).


That's a big amount of space and orbitals shouldn't be concerned?

And I was looking for geostationary. Couldn't get the spelling lagrange popped up.

There's a lot of space in space, and the Graveyard is a long way and a lot of delta-V away from the other Orbitals, but sure, I think that's grounds for being concerned. The Orbitals have sent some killer satellites there, which is kind of hilarious since containing the L4 or L5 debris field would require orders of magnitude more killer satellites than what would be required to contain Earth.

The word you're looking for is "geosynchronous." Geosynchronous orbits aren't in the same region as the Lagrange points.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:31 am
  

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Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.


I'd try.


I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:

How would having a conversation with the folks down below put a station in danger?

_________________
Hotrod
Bizantium and the Northern Isles, p65 map
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Check out my maps here!
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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:57 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.


I'd try.


I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:

How would having a conversation with the folks down below put a station in danger?


Because it lets them know that you exist, and to some extent where you are.
Announcing your position to potential enemies is always a risk.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:34 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
are you really gonna argue they'd try? there's blatant nazis and daemon worshippers down there fighting each other, far better to maintain radio silence until something better comes along.


I'd try.


I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:

How would having a conversation with the folks down below put a station in danger?


Because it lets them know that you exist, and to some extent where you are.
Announcing your position to potential enemies is always a risk.

I'd do it anyway.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:35 pm
  

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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
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Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:

How would having a conversation with the folks down below put a station in danger?


Because it lets them know that you exist, and to some extent where you are.
Announcing your position to potential enemies is always a risk.

I'd do it anyway.


you're that guy that opens the doors during a zombie apocalypse to "make a run for it" and get their radio, aren't you.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:05 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
I'm glad you have so much faith in humanity. :) I just hope that faith doesn't get everyone on the station killed. :cry:

How would having a conversation with the folks down below put a station in danger?


Because it lets them know that you exist, and to some extent where you are.
Announcing your position to potential enemies is always a risk.

I'd do it anyway.


you're that guy that opens the doors during a zombie apocalypse to "make a run for it" and get their radio, aren't you.


How else are we supposed to call for help?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:59 am
  

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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
Quote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Probably, but if they do, they don't seem to be aimed there.

Ok, so your argument is that they can, but no-one would want to try. We have different views of human nature. I can accept that.


I don't think they would. They believed the Earth was lost to them, mourned and then moved on.
Me too. :-D Besides, wouldn't things be dull if everyone had the same nature?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
That's presuming they are looking down. Most though have put the Earth behind them and those there now, have no loyalty to Earth at all. Space is their home. Not Earth. If they are looking, they're going to see an Earth, that is not the Earth of their ancestors. Most maps are useless. There's no nations they recognize. Why should they believe there are friendlies down there?

I'm glad you have an optimistic opinion of humanity and there are some who'd share your opinion. Most don't but Outcast station is more tolerant.

That's a burden of proof fallacy. Friendlies existed before the Coming of the Rifts, and MiO's Orbitals believe that none exist today, but MiO presents no good argument or evidence to explain this conclusion. Sure, you can invent some (and you've been busy doing so in this discussion), but the book itself fails to do so. It would be like RUE presenting the current policies of the Coalition with zero explanation or context explaining why they do what they do and how they got to where they are.


:shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.






Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't need to invent anything. It's in the book page 61. It says right there why the killer satellites were there and are maintained. If there was nothing coming up why would killer satellites need to be replaced?

p61 is insufficient, and your logic is circular. They need killer satellites because the book says so, and the book says so because they need killer satellites.

Let's consider this from another perspective. We have the stats for killer satellites and some presumption that stuff occasionally tries to come up the well. Ok. What tries to come up the well? Could the player characters get involved in helping the Orbitals? How do we put on such a fight when all we have to play with is the killer satellites and some spaceship creation rules? MiO only models this from the perspective of the people trying to get into orbit, not from the perspective of the Orbitals.


Good grief. It's like Holly telling Dave, everybody'd dead. They're all dead. Details are nice but the lack of them doesn't change the fact that they're all dead. MiO says why. That it's not detailed enough doesn't make it less valid.

Now you want suggestions for what comes up? :shock: I don't know what's there. I've made suggestions. Maybe aliens. Maybe just killer satellites. Maybe just space debris. Maybe all of the above? Maybe a CCW quarantine fleet? Maybe TPTB left that open for the GM to decide?

They PCs are where? If they're on Earth, how do they know about Orbitals and whether or not they're still up there? Why would they want to go? How would they get there? If they somehow gain the means to get into orbit, do they have the means to fight past whatever keeps people from orbit? If they some how manage to do all that and get into space, will they even be able to communicate with most of the stations without being fired on? Most see everything on earth as an enemy. And just how would they help anyway?

Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
It's exactly as I said,
Quote:
There's radios and there's radios.
. Not every radio can pick up signals transmitted by other radios. Just like not every computer can use media or programs from another computer. For all we know the Orbitals are Apple and the CS is Windows.

You seem to have trouble accepting that people of Rifts Earth and Orbitals, who have future tech and would depend on radios far more than you do, would far exceed your own equipment capabilities and knowledge.


You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.





Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Not really as you're lumping three different groups into one. How many people are in the CS's educated elite? How many are in are in the uneducated masses in CS? How many people are outside the CS and out of that number, how many have heard of her? Just in North America? How about the rest of the world?

That's a quote from the book, not my own invention. If you want more information, read the rest of the description in CWC.


I didn't say it wasn't a quote from a book. In fact here's what is right in front of your quite.
Quote:
A recent (secret) survey conducted by the CS propaganda machine headed by Joseph Prosek II, showed that within the Coalition States 96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings, although only 3% admitted to having personally seen one of her books.


That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.


Code:
[quote="Sambot"]
I'm not saying communication will be impossible, although accents and slang can make it seem so but it may not be that easy either. For example, what do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?[/quote]
We agree. There would be lingual shifts, and those shifts would not make communication impossible.

This invalidates your original argument that they wouldn't be able to understand each other.


At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I don't know. What does self preservation make a people?

You call it self-preservation, I call it mass murder and a crime against humanity.


So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why is it that every nation on Earth can take defensive measures but very vulnerable Orbital Colonies can't? Not only is it wrong for them to do so, you condemn them for it. How does that make sense? They live in bubbles in an environment that will kill them. One monster could easily cause massive damage and loss of life and yet you think they should welcome them with open arms? :eek:

With every reply in this conversation, you have either invented or stuck to your invented supporting arguments for MiO, and in your previous reply you couched these terms with a bunch of "maybes." That's an evasive way to argue, and that's what prevaricating means.

The Orbital's homeworld and the rest of humanity still existed and still exists, they can literally see them, there is no reason why they can't communicate, Earth is abundant with air, water, and other resources the Orbitals desperately need, and the killer satellite network as described requires ludicrous amounts of effort and resources.

There's only one human nation in Rifts canon that kills everyone who tries to approach them, and that's the Orbitals. That's not "defensive measures." It's madness. The whole premise is madness. The Orbitals are hurting themselves as much as the planet with this indiscriminate killing and destruction.


I don't think we're looking at the same books. I really don't. I don't have to invent anything. It's in the book! So there aren't enough details for you. So what. The basics are in the book. Yet even when I provide quotes you ignore them. The CS would happily kill every D-Bee, magic user, and sympathizer they could to free Earth of them. They don't not because they don't have the desire but because they lack the means. Until they have the means they'll use their enemies to kill each other. Then when the greater threat is gone the weaker one will be eliminated. It's in the books.

If the people on Earth could see the Orbitals, don't you think they'd see what was destroying their spacecraft? Instead it's still a mystery. As for the Orbitals, they turned their back on Earth 250+ years ago. They're not looking or listening except to make sure the monsters and aliens stay on Earth.

As for resources, you keep saying they should go to Earth, yet they've been fine without Earth for 250+ years. They don't need the Earth. You also don't seem to care that they'd be better off cooperating with each other yet the moon is busy keeping resources from the stations.

You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
How's a satellite supposed to help without means to communicate with that satellite? You need power, which probably needs fuel. Do you contact the satellite or run the can opener?

You're making stuff up to support your position again. Radios are common tech in Rifts. They're built into environmental body armor, power armor, and robots. They're cheap and widely available. They're included in starting equipment for a great many O.C.C.'s. Cultures that can support that kind of tech aren't going to have trouble detecting and communicating with the Orbitals.


You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

https://www.livescience.com/33453-iss-a ... radio.html
Quote:
As mentioned above, the transceiver on board the ISS is tuned to transmit radio signals at a frequency of 145.80 MHz. "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead," Ransom said. "It'll usually be silent, but every so often you can hear the astronauts talking to somebody."


Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Why is it okay for the CS to shoot on sight but not the Orbitals? They're in a much more precarious position. And how many cultures shoot to kill for no reason? Even the Orbitals have a reason.

Your insistence that the CS shoots everyone they meet on sight despite having no evidence or reference to back that up is noted. If that's how you play the C.S., have fun with that.


I never said the CS shoots everyone on site although there is places in the books that says they will. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth and ignore the text in the books? If we're having a failure to communicate how are orbitals and grounders supposed to talk to each other?

And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

Quote:
Sambot wrote:
I didn't say I was critical of the Coalition shooting on sight nor is my post being critical of it. It's an example of the Coalition feelings after such a situation happens. Better to kill one innocent than allow hundreds of citizens to be killed. I don't agree with it. Not even all CS troopers or Orbitals agree with it. A good majority however does.

The Coalition doesn't shoot everyone on sight in canon. If you're saying they do, then you're inventing your own setting, which is fine, but doesn't give us a basis for discussing this topic.

The Orbitals do shoot everyone on sight in canon, and any reasonable explanation of why they do this requires arguments and supporting evidence that isn't in MiO.


I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.



Quote:
Sambot wrote:
You ran numbers based on common satellites. Not all satellites possible. Those larger vehicles also deploy killer satellites as well as maintain them. So they would be part of the defense network.

Ok, so it takes inventing your own killer satellites to make that killer satellite network make more sense. This falls into your pattern of modifying the setting to justify the setting. Do you often play adventures in MiO? Is this your favorite part of Rifts?


No inventing required. It's there in the books. Examples given are by no means the only ones available. They're examples. Not a complete listing. That doesn't mean I'm changing the setting. Eliminating everything that isn't listed, changes the setting. Ignoring the text because you don't like it or it isn't detailed enough changes the setting.

I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.


Quote:
Sambot wrote:
Just because something is based on Golden Age Weaponry does not mean that it will continue to be compatible.

Universal jacks are a thing in Rifts, and information/signal technology trends towards compatibility, not away from it. Your compatibility argument is invalid.


And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.




Quote:
Sambot wrote:
They don't and then they do.

I'll rephrase for you:

Real-life communications satellites don't exist to extend the range of a signal in a straight line. They exist so that we can bounce signals around obstacles, mainly the planet itself. Boosting the straight-line range of a signal is a matter of antennas, electrical power, and electronic amplifiers, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to boost that straight-line range than it is to put a satellite in orbit. Thus satellites boost range along the surface of the Earth because they go around the horizon, but you can send a signal much farther into space without using satellites at all.


In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.



Quote:
So for all we know, that Satellite can't be used to communicate with the Orbitals? :| That helps how? :-?

That satellite demonstrates that communications to and from space are possible, which leads to the question of why ARCHIE is the only one who has done so.



It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.



Sambot wrote:
That's a big amount of space and orbitals shouldn't be concerned?

And I was looking for geostationary. Couldn't get the spelling lagrange popped up.

There's a lot of space in space, and the Graveyard is a long way and a lot of delta-V away from the other Orbitals, but sure, I think that's grounds for being concerned. The Orbitals have sent some killer satellites there, which is kind of hilarious since containing the L4 or L5 debris field would require orders of magnitude more killer satellites than what would be required to contain Earth.

The word you're looking for is "geosynchronous." Geosynchronous orbits aren't in the same region as the Lagrange points.[/quote]

And they still need to make more. Otherwise there wouldn't be aliens for Outcast station to be tolerant of.


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