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 Post subject: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?
Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:44 am
  

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Was there ever a definitive answer for why folks can't access outer space from RIFTS Earth? Are there any sources that describe what's out there?


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:28 am
  

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According to the underrated "mutants in orbit" source book there is an orbital community up there that activally contains rifts earth out of fear. Killer satulites, an orbital field of debrie and the community itself take down anything that gets close to orbit. It is a part of rifts that could be better developed in the opinion of a few people around here myself included. There's a rifter artical that updates the setting to 109pa but that's it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:53 am
  

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The Mutants in Orbit book is, off the top of my head, the only official text about the goings one in the solar system of rifts earth.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 8:32 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Mutants in Orbit book is, off the top of my head, the only official text about the goings one in the solar system of rifts earth.


Indeed, and as noted, it's rather dated and in need of being better fleshed out with regards to the whole 'keeping' em down on the damned Earth' ceiling cap.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 9:01 pm
  

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Id just say, "Dimensional Shearing and other high-PPE magic-shenanigans make achieving orbit impossible; similarly, orbitals cant land on earth" and leave it be.

Earth is cut off from the rest of its Galaxy/Universe because MacGuffin. At least to tech characters.

You could theoretically Rift/Teleport yourself into Orbit. Good luck though.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 9:06 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Id just say, "Dimensional Shearing and other high-PPE magic-shenanigans make achieving orbit impossible; similarly, orbitals cant land on earth" and leave it be.

Earth is cut off from the rest of its Galaxy/Universe because MacGuffin. At least to tech characters.

You could theoretically Rift/Teleport yourself into Orbit. Good luck though.


Yah. Pretty much this.
The Orbitals just like to maintain the killsat net to burn rifted critters coming from the direction of Earth, and to keep them from pointing said killsats at each other.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:18 pm
  

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For clarity:

When i say "good luck" teleporting yourself into Orbit....

I dont mean to say its hard. It really isn't. Its well within the range of Teleport: Superior and any Shifter could open a Rift to someplace in outer space.

However, what i meant by "good luck" is... "good luck surviving".

Without pre-knowledge of the conditions of space, you're likely to end up somewhere lethal.

Even if you somehow manage to appear in a place where you're not just going to die and/or eventually die (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...), like on a station...

Hope beyond hope the locals dont riddle you with gunfire the moment you appear.

Without the GM deliberately making it a feature of the campaign, Rifts Earth is basically effectively cut off from its own universe/galaxy. Just pretend it doesn't exist.

Even Archie was only able to get through the interference around the planet and contact a single Cyberworks satellite by using advanced Mechanoid technology he acquired.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 pm
  

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A Star Child RCC (Rifts England) should be able to use the Shooting Star ability to reach the moon.

(Now I've got a picture in my head of a Star Child frantically knocking on the station's hatch, asking to be let in.)

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:32 pm
  

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taalismn wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Id just say, "Dimensional Shearing and other high-PPE magic-shenanigans make achieving orbit impossible; similarly, orbitals cant land on earth" and leave it be.

Earth is cut off from the rest of its Galaxy/Universe because MacGuffin. At least to tech characters.

You could theoretically Rift/Teleport yourself into Orbit. Good luck though.


Yah. Pretty much this.
The Orbitals just like to maintain the killsat net to burn rifted critters coming from the direction of Earth, and to keep them from pointing said killsats at each other.


I ran an adventure where the PCs were recruited to ride shotgun during a new attempt at getting into orbit. Other companies and nations had tried, but their rockets always got destroyed for unknown reasons. This time, Cyberworks was the corporation trying, and they wanted mercs with unusual abilities to be in the crew, as a wild-card that might help their chances.
The PCs agreed, and Cyberworks' massively-armored, heavily-gunned shuttle eventually launched!
The PCs got to shoot it out with killer satellites, then get to an escape pod just before the shuttle was destroyed.
And then were picked up by one of the Orbital Communities (Laika, I think) who had detected their shuttle and was curious to grab survivors to pump for information about Earth.
When Laika learned of their unusual abilities, they asked the PCs to go on a mission for them...
:)

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:21 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
For clarity:

When i say "good luck" teleporting yourself into Orbit....

I dont mean to say its hard. It really isn't. Its well within the range of Teleport: Superior and any Shifter could open a Rift to someplace in outer space.

However, what i meant by "good luck" is... "good luck surviving".

Without pre-knowledge of the conditions of space, you're likely to end up somewhere lethal.

Even if you somehow manage to appear in a place where you're not just going to die and/or eventually die (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...), like on a station...

Hope beyond hope the locals dont riddle you with gunfire the moment you appear.

Without the GM deliberately making it a feature of the campaign, Rifts Earth is basically effectively cut off from its own universe/galaxy. Just pretend it doesn't exist.

Even Archie was only able to get through the interference around the planet and contact a single Cyberworks satellite by using advanced Mechanoid technology he acquired.


this is especially true when you consider that most teleport abilities require the person teleporting to know where they are going, in the "visualizing the target location" kind of way. useful for going somewhere you've already been or can find some fairly accurate recon on. but virtually no one on earth has been to the orbital stations, or the moon. and even if you use telescopes to locate the stations in the night sky, plot their orbits, you'd need some sort of info on their internal layout and organization to be able to teleport to the inside of them. so you'd have to teleport to outside them, which brings us back to "arriving in a hostile environment and hoping to find your way somewhere safe without being shot"

sure it might be possible with enough effort but it would be pretty difficult.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm
  

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And, well, on the subject of teleportation, if the Splugorth wanted space, they would take it.

Rift in some spacecraft from 3 Galaxies. Put them in a giant circle of teleportation (PFRPG; many High Lords are noted to be Summoners, so their possession of the circle is eminently reasonable). Teleport them straight up. You now have a dedicated space-fighting force in orbit, centuries ahead of anything the orbitals can muster. And they can keep doing that, again and again. Flood space with Kittani, and enslave anyone who seems useful.

If they wanted it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:54 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Even if you somehow manage to appear in a place where you're not just going to die and/or eventually die (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...), like on a station...

Hope beyond hope the locals don't riddle you with gunfire the moment you appear. .


"The emergency manual airlock access switch? Oh, THAT? Around the Damned Earth we're allowed to disable that. Too many Uninvited coming in. Most folks around here just epoxy the workings and weld a few hull plates over's. Easy enough to repair once you're out of the Earth Zone."

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 12:28 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
For clarity:

When i say "good luck" teleporting yourself into Orbit....

I dont mean to say its hard. It really isn't. Its well within the range of Teleport: Superior and any Shifter could open a Rift to someplace in outer space.

However, what i meant by "good luck" is... "good luck surviving".

Without pre-knowledge of the conditions of space, you're likely to end up somewhere lethal.

Even if you somehow manage to appear in a place where you're not just going to die and/or eventually die (if you're suited up in your EBA, you're cool! until you run out of air...), like on a station...

Hope beyond hope the locals dont riddle you with gunfire the moment you appear.

Without the GM deliberately making it a feature of the campaign, Rifts Earth is basically effectively cut off from its own universe/galaxy. Just pretend it doesn't exist.

Even Archie was only able to get through the interference around the planet and contact a single Cyberworks satellite by using advanced Mechanoid technology he acquired.


this is especially true when you consider that most teleport abilities require the person teleporting to know where they are going, in the "visualizing the target location" kind of way. useful for going somewhere you've already been or can find some fairly accurate recon on. but virtually no one on earth has been to the orbital stations, or the moon. and even if you use telescopes to locate the stations in the night sky, plot their orbits, you'd need some sort of info on their internal layout and organization to be able to teleport to the inside of them. so you'd have to teleport to outside them, which brings us back to "arriving in a hostile environment and hoping to find your way somewhere safe without being shot"

sure it might be possible with enough effort but it would be pretty difficult.


Ermmmm.. .Magic 8-balls says a mighty "Maybe" on that one.

There are a variety of divination spells and psionic abilities that would let you scout the area without actually being present. But... again... good luck man. You teleport into Freedom Station and the locals run for the hills screaming for security who promptly scrambles an all-hands "demonic intruder aboard" and promptly murders you.

And thats best case.

Mind, if i WERE going to use the Solar System, i'd throw MiO into the circular file immediately.

But that sorta leads back to "unless the GM is going to make it a deliberate part of the game to send you into the Solar System, just pretend it doesn't exist".

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 12:34 am
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
And, well, on the subject of teleportation, if the Splugorth wanted space, they would take it.

Rift in some spacecraft from 3 Galaxies. Put them in a giant circle of teleportation (PFRPG; many High Lords are noted to be Summoners, so their possession of the circle is eminently reasonable). Teleport them straight up. You now have a dedicated space-fighting force in orbit, centuries ahead of anything the orbitals can muster. And they can keep doing that, again and again. Flood space with Kittani, and enslave anyone who seems useful.

If they wanted it.


They wouldn't even have to do that, IMO.

They could just Rift them straight into the Solar System from wherever they were. Just POOF, we're coming out of a Rift at a Space Ley Line. Whats up, Orbitals? Youre our slaves now. If they lack first-hand knowledge of space, a High Lord could literally just look up and Teleport himself into space. He can survive in a Vacuum. And its almost certain that at lest SOME of Splyncryth's High Lords know Space Magic (from Fleets of the Three Galaxies) since they are actually just basic invocations that any learned spellcaster can learn (they just dont show up in non-spacefaring settings because... well.... Space, man.) He could just Teleport himself up there and then move himself around (one of the spells gives you sub-Light speeds at Mach 20+) until he finds a Nexus and then POOF. There's a Rift. And now there's a fleet.

More effort than its worth, though. Splyncryth wouldn't bother. Plenty of slave stock right there on Earth. I could MAYBE see him authorizing a small mining colony out in the belt, just for the material resources. But there's not enough population density to make slaving worthwhile or even bothering to conquer the Orbitals.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 10:07 am
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
And, well, on the subject of teleportation, if the Splugorth wanted space, they would take it.

Rift in some spacecraft from 3 Galaxies. Put them in a giant circle of teleportation (PFRPG; many High Lords are noted to be Summoners, so their possession of the circle is eminently reasonable). Teleport them straight up. You now have a dedicated space-fighting force in orbit, centuries ahead of anything the orbitals can muster. And they can keep doing that, again and again. Flood space with Kittani, and enslave anyone who seems useful.

If they wanted it.

They don't even need Circle Magic. Ley Lines (and their Nexus Points) are on the Moon and Mars (canon), so they could Rifts in via Ley Line without exotic magic (to Rifts setting).

Mars and the Moon also both have "Pyramids" that have been spotted in photographs (note I am not saying they are actually artificial structures in the real world), which for the purposes of Rifts could be the remains of ancient True Atlantean presence on the these worlds? If that is the case, accessing them via Pyramids would seem possible.

Even if we ignore them, using Astral Projection to shortcut (access the Astral Plane to short cut to one of the worlds for Material Plane seems possible allowing one to get more distance, IIRC this is the premise of the Ecto-Traveler OCC in SB3) and then open either a Rift directly or (using other powers) to construct new pyramids.

You are right though, if the Splugorth want something they can certainly take it, but as Fot3G illustrates they have a blind spot with regard to space travel in general. The Kittani being the exception to this mindset, they could push for it. But at the moment they would need something to get their attention.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:24 pm
  

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taalismn wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Mutants in Orbit book is, off the top of my head, the only official text about the goings one in the solar system of rifts earth.


Indeed, and as noted, it's rather dated and in need of being better fleshed out with regards to the whole 'keeping' em down on the damned Earth' ceiling cap.

Yep it is dated much... even when comparing it to the HU;AUr book.
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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:46 pm
  

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StormGryffen wrote:
Was there ever a definitive answer for why folks can't access outer space from RIFTS Earth? Are there any sources that describe what's out there?


Yes, there was. Mutants in Orbit was an attempt to write a sourcebook for both After the Bomb and Rifts.It cites orbital debris (plausible, kinda) and a killer satellite network that is actively maintained by virtually everyone in a large and diverse orbital community.

The italicized bit there is where the book starts to fail for me. Virtually the entire orbital community, despite getting into frequent shooting wars with each other and being so resource-starved that stuff like air and water is money to them, has worked together and in harmony to screw over Earth, a place from which they might otherwise be able to get an abundant supply of air and water. Humanity in orbit has decided to give humanity on Earth the finger for 300 years straight and can't seem to figure out what's going on despite being able to literally look down at Earth and see stuff, having all kinds of radio traffic coming from the planet, and having resources aplenty to send some probes down there.

In terms of what's up there, it's a few big space stations, lots of mutants, and a nation on the Moon with another ARCHIE computer in charge. None of these places gets along with the others (except for cooperating in screwing Earth over) and they all have lots of mutants and crazy people. Mars is overrun by big bugs. There are no NPC's of interest, the artwork is a bit on the silly/cartoony side, the misrepresentation of scale and physics claws at my sanity, visiting from Earth for more than a month or so gives you about a 50% chance of dying when you come back, and anyone from there is guaranteed to die if they come to Earth because gravity kills.

I love a lot about the Rifts setting, but I really wish they'd retcon almost everything in Mutants in Orbit.

Chaos Earth explains it somewhat more-plausibly: there's so much crap in the air and so much interference from ley line activity that no signals can get up or down, and there's too much cloud coverage for direct observation.

My suggestion for you is to watch (or read) The Expanse to get a better sense of how living and working in space would actually work, and then build your own Rifts: Space setting based on the idea that something is keeping Earth in total isolation from space. You also might consider watching the Defiance TV series, which also features an Earth isolated from space by an orbital debris field.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 3:49 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
You are right though, if the Splugorth want something they can certainly take it, but as Fot3G illustrates they have a blind spot with regard to space travel in general. The Kittani being the exception to this mindset, they could push for it. But at the moment they would need something to get their attention.


Rendezvous with Rama? :mrgreen:

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:09 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
StormGryffen wrote:
Was there ever a definitive answer for why folks can't access outer space from RIFTS Earth? Are there any sources that describe what's out there?


Yes, there was. Mutants in Orbit was an attempt to write a sourcebook for both After the Bomb and Rifts.It cites orbital debris (plausible, kinda) and a killer satellite network that is actively maintained by virtually everyone in a large and diverse orbital community.

The italicized bit there is where the book starts to fail for me. Virtually the entire orbital community, despite getting into frequent shooting wars with each other and being so resource-starved that stuff like air and water is money to them, has worked together and in harmony to screw over Earth, a place from which they might otherwise be able to get an abundant supply of air and water. Humanity in orbit has decided to give humanity on Earth the finger for 300 years straight and can't seem to figure out what's going on despite being able to literally look down at Earth and see stuff, having all kinds of radio traffic coming from the planet, and having resources aplenty to send some probes down there.

In terms of what's up there, it's a few big space stations, lots of mutants, and a nation on the Moon with another ARCHIE computer in charge. None of these places gets along with the others (except for cooperating in screwing Earth over) and they all have lots of mutants and crazy people. Mars is overrun by big bugs. There are no NPC's of interest, the artwork is a bit on the silly/cartoony side, the misrepresentation of scale and physics claws at my sanity, visiting from Earth for more than a month or so gives you about a 50% chance of dying when you come back, and anyone from there is guaranteed to die if they come to Earth because gravity kills.

I love a lot about the Rifts setting, but I really wish they'd retcon almost everything in Mutants in Orbit.

Chaos Earth explains it somewhat more-plausibly: there's so much crap in the air and so much interference from ley line activity that no signals can get up or down, and there's too much cloud coverage for direct observation.

My suggestion for you is to watch (or read) The Expanse to get a better sense of how living and working in space would actually work, and then build your own Rifts: Space setting based on the idea that something is keeping Earth in total isolation from space. You also might consider watching the Defiance TV series, which also features an Earth isolated from space by an orbital debris field.




Yes.
All of this.

I'd suppose the communities would have to cooperate now that Arkhons have arrived, though.

Another thing that bothers me is, all the people on Earth have to do is blast the satellites with energy weapons. The orbital communities really have finite resources, so...
Also, how is it no-one on Earth has a telescope?
Hell, cyber-eyes are about as good...

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:42 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
Another thing that bothers me is, all the people on Earth have to do is blast the satellites with energy weapons.


All those Energy Weapons that Earth nations possess with 70+ mile ranges.

Oh, wait.... there are none.

Or the fact that they have no idea WHAT actually trashes the things they try to send into Orbit. They dont know the killsats exist.

Thats really the LEAST bothersome thing about MiO.

And, OK .. they have telescopes.... now what?

You know there are things up there. But those things dont respond to any communications... so.... now what?

Cant get up there.

Whatever is up there doesn't seem to want to talk.

Cant make them....

Twiddle thumbs.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:45 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
Another thing that bothers me is, all the people on Earth have to do is blast the satellites with energy weapons.


All those Energy Weapons that Earth nations possess with 70+ mile ranges.

Oh, wait.... there are none.

Or the fact that they have no idea WHAT actually trashes the things they try to send into Orbit. They dont know the killsats exist.

Thats really the LEAST bothersome thing about MiO.

And, OK .. they have telescopes.... now what?

You know there are things up there. But those things dont respond to any communications... so.... now what?

Cant get up there.

Whatever is up there doesn't seem to want to talk.

Cant make them....

Twiddle thumbs.



Have you noticed the fact you have to address every post I make in a negative way?
I have.
edit: As well as myself, on at least one occasion.

Anyway, to explain it simply:
People look through telescopes.
People see things.
People figure out a way to remove things.
People go from Earth into space.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 9:34 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
[

Anyway, to explain it simply:
People look through telescopes.
People see things.
People figure out a way to remove things.
People go from Earth into space.


Depends how much effort those with the ability to build the required systems wish to spend on dealing with high-up unknowns when they have more immediate concerns closer to home.
If satellites in orbit began broadcasting threats from 'King of he Space Gargoyles' out to wipe out Central Europe, Triax would be building laser launch arrays and high altitude interceptor launchers in every city and under fields, but the things in orbit seem content to just maintain a cap on high altitude/low orbit travel. For now, the industrial might of nations like the CS or NGR or Japan is on churning out hordes of war machines to wipe out enemies crouched on their borders.

The NGR and the CS might know some of the advantages of having a presence in space(communications, weather forecasting, surveillance), but they can get some of that information with more terrestrial means(though even there, Rifts suffers from short-sightedness when the CS and NGR can field supersonic aircraft that can cross continents in mere hours).

But if the merely physical threat of killsats doesn't work for you, then some other mechanism can/must be at play...or else you can GM your game accordingly and play out the consequences of having those damn Earthlings crowding up into the sky and making things even more complicated.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 11:06 pm
  

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Another problem is logistics. If you do a rough order of magnitude calculation with the ranges given in MiO, you'll need somewhere on the order of hundreds of thousands of killer satellites to barely cover Earth, and that's ignoring the practical difficulty of targeting something moving at around 4 miles per second with weapon systems with maximum ranges of 5-10 miles.

The math behind MiO really doesn't check out.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 11:13 pm
  

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taalismn wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
[

Anyway, to explain it simply:
People look through telescopes.
People see things.
People figure out a way to remove things.
People go from Earth into space.


Depends how much effort those with the ability to build the required systems wish to spend on dealing with high-up unknowns when they have more immediate concerns closer to home.
If satellites in orbit began broadcasting threats from 'King of he Space Gargoyles' out to wipe out Central Europe, Triax would be building laser launch arrays and high altitude interceptor launchers in every city and under fields, but the things in orbit seem content to just maintain a cap on high altitude/low orbit travel. For now, the industrial might of nations like the CS or NGR or Japan is on churning out hordes of war machines to wipe out enemies crouched on their borders.

The NGR and the CS might know some of the advantages of having a presence in space(communications, weather forecasting, surveillance), but they can get some of that information with more terrestrial means(though even there, Rifts suffers from short-sightedness when the CS and NGR can field supersonic aircraft that can cross continents in mere hours).

But if the merely physical threat of killsats doesn't work for you, then some other mechanism can/must be at play...or else you can GM your game accordingly and play out the consequences of having those damn Earthlings crowding up into the sky and making things even more complicated.



Well said, but my point originally was, in the books it states that no-one knows why they get blasted out of the sky, when all they need to do is ask the cyborg next to them, or look in a telescope. And if they wanted to get into space, eventually they could, it's just a matter of attrition of resources.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:03 am
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
Another thing that bothers me is, all the people on Earth have to do is blast the satellites with energy weapons.


All those Energy Weapons that Earth nations possess with 70+ mile ranges.

Oh, wait.... there are none.

Or the fact that they have no idea WHAT actually trashes the things they try to send into Orbit. They dont know the killsats exist.

Thats really the LEAST bothersome thing about MiO.

And, OK .. they have telescopes.... now what?

You know there are things up there. But those things dont respond to any communications... so.... now what?

Cant get up there.

Whatever is up there doesn't seem to want to talk.

Cant make them....

Twiddle thumbs.



Have you noticed the fact you have to address every post I make in a negative way?
I have.
edit: As well as myself, on at least one occasion.


Because your ideas are almost never thought through, well thought out, or logical. So, yes. I criticize something that is worthy of criticism. News at 11.

Warning: Personal attack


Quote:
Anyway, to explain it simply:
People look through telescopes.
People see things.
People figure out a way to remove things.


Ahh, more magical thinking. "They figure out a way to remove things".

Such as? Nothing in the arsenal of any Earth tech power can hope to reach orbit and damage the space stations. Missiles wont make it through the debris field. If you can even track and target the killsats. And the moment you go aggro on them (thereby confirming what theyve known all along - Earth is a threat that must be contained), the orbitals will quite literally nuke you from orbit. Or just drop an asteroid on you. So good luck with that.

"Theyll just come up with something" is not an argument or plan. Its magical thinking.

Quote:
People go from Earth into space.


.... why?

They have enough problems at home. Other than the potential of satellite communication.... there's nothing up there they need. And they dont even need to go into Orbit. They have nuclear power packs that can last a decade+

All you have to do is make some drones that can stay aloft 24/7, and set up a drone network at about 20 miles up, nowhere near orbit. You now have "satellite" coverage.

Mind, i dont think this should work in Rifts (its kind of counter to the basic tone of the setting Kevin is reaching for), but RAW, right now, it absolutely should work. Put then ~20 miles apart, and youve got near instant communications across your entire airspace.

Meanwhile, pointlessly trying to get into space while there are literal demons trying to kill you on a daily basis, probably isn't worth your time.

Trust me, im not defending MiO, its a terrible book for Rifts (it actually works in After the Bomb just fine). But the things you brought up are literally non-issues compared to the other glaring issues (which Hotrod can go on about for days).

If i were going to run Rifts Space, i'd throw MiO into the garbage immediately and start over.

But "The few high tech powers on earth who would gain almost nothing except more enemies dont bother trying to get into space when there are demons trying to kill them at home" is not a major issue in the lore or storytelling.

And its quite easy to not know what trashed your space flights. We're not talking stuff five miles up, we're talking stuff 70+ miles up. Or further. Which in a lot of cases, is out of contact range for Rifts Earth gear. And the Orbitals can jam them. Or just... the ship cant radio you to tell you what killed it when it is killed in one shot by a killsat.

Seriously, storytelling wise, thats a non-issue. Tried to get back into space a few times, failed for reasons we dont know... did the cost/benefit math, shrugged and went "eff it".

Edit:

And i think the debris field is something that a lot of people have a hard time grasping. If it is dense enough, and moving fast enough... *nothing* from Rifts Earth will get through. It just get turned into more debris as it gets churned up by what is effectively an MDC sandstorm in space moving at speeds that can hull a ship.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 3:38 am
  

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As I said, I was explaining it as simply as possible, and I refuse to waste the time required to type a 5 page dissertation on how the CS and NGR could have done things to make it into space. Suffice it to say, yes weapons could be developed to achieve the goal, and leave it at that. It's one of those things the game writers really didn't want to have happen, so it won't happen in canon.
It isn't magical thinking. Nor is it moving goal posts.
Nor am I flagrantly violating board rules by making personal attacks which, with proper moderation, should be cause for a warning or the like.
I can see why people quit these boards, and why they're kind of dead.
As for the "why" of the CS/ NGR achieving space travel, I can think of several tactical and strategic reasons to do so. Maybe for some of the same reasons the US and USSR went to such lengths? Hmmm...

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:57 am
  

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I am in the camp of "MiO should be set aside"
MiO has some pretty good stuff in it, but its game mechanics and finer details of the solar system really need revamping.
that said Rifts Aftermath includes summaries of the factions involved in MiO so even if you drop the book itself, you'd still need to keep the factions and stations. at least, if you are looking at conforming to the existing setting or writing a new worldbook. (rule zero always applies if only doing something for your game)

however even using the existing factions and stations there is a lot you can do with the setting. you can easily turn it into something a bit more like the expanse, with small colonies all over the solar system (resource extracting operations by the stations.. mines, solar power arrays, water extraction, refineries, farming complexes, etc.) and spacecraft with powerful drives to carry things from them to the stations and back, and the stations always skirmishing with each other over possession of the various sites.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 10:26 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
I am in the camp of "MiO should be set aside"
MiO has some pretty good stuff in it, but its game mechanics and finer details of the solar system really need revamping.
that said Rifts Aftermath includes summaries of the factions involved in MiO so even if you drop the book itself, you'd still need to keep the factions and stations. at least, if you are looking at conforming to the existing setting or writing a new worldbook. (rule zero always applies if only doing something for your game)

however even using the existing factions and stations there is a lot you can do with the setting. you can easily turn it into something a bit more like the expanse, with small colonies all over the solar system (resource extracting operations by the stations.. mines, solar power arrays, water extraction, refineries, farming complexes, etc.) and spacecraft with powerful drives to carry things from them to the stations and back, and the stations always skirmishing with each other over possession of the various sites.



My version has the ARCHIE computer on the Moon run go bonkers and take control of the space around Earth's orbit, maintaining the debris ring and mass-producing the killer satellite network and isolating human colonies elsewhere in the Solar System from Earth in a misguided attempt to protect humanity whilst condemning humanity on Earth.

The human colonies on Mars are in a long war with the Luna/orbital robots. These martian colonies are attempting to re-establish contact with Earth, but they cannot match the industrial might or firepower of the robotic fleet. They make the most capable ships, drives, and weapons.

The Jovian moons of Europa and Ganymede have written off Earth and are focused on making the most of colonizing the outer Solar System, though they will trade with the Martian colonies. They've established a loose confederacy with newer, smaller colonies on a few moons around Saturn and Uranus. Their focus is in genetic and biological engineering, and they're the best and growing food.

There's a wild, clan-based, nomadic spacefaring culture in the asteroid belt, where stations and ships ply the rocks of the belt, mining, scavenging, and piracy against Mars, Luna, the Jovian moons, and each other. These folks usually live in Earth-like gravity from spinning and thrust acceleration, though they're also quite proficient at moving in zero-G. Their tech isn't the best, but it's rugged and practical, and they excel at living, working, and fighting in space.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:28 pm
  

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Is it ever addressed why the groundlings can't listen in on orbital communications?

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Is it ever addressed why the groundlings can't listen in on orbital communications?


Not as far as I know. Ditto on the flipside.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:49 pm
  

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
You would need a lot of infrastructure to capture radio signals. Laser communications are line-of-sight (even at an Earth-Mars distance, to a large extent), however.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:55 pm
  

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Natasha wrote:
You would need a lot of infrastructure to capture radio signals. Laser communications are line-of-sight (even at an Earth-Mars distance, to a large extent), however.


How so? I mean, radio signals tend to travel in waves, whereas laser is, as I understand it, harder to intercept without being physically in the path of the laser.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:13 pm
  

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So I ran game for a couple of months and a lot of these ideas that you all discus came up.
1) how come nobody can access and retrieve information from the satellites? Moon Base Archie, it actively controls the flow of information.
2) How in the hell can you litter enough killer satellites to cover the entire earth? Why there are a lot of these bad boys op there, They are being controlled by MBA who also has complete access to all the data from the rest of the satellites. That data is used to create an intercept coarse to kill the craft leaving earth.

Really though if you wanted to get to space that bad all it would take is hopping a rift to mars... Dont know why you would want to trap your self in such a place, and I love space games.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:35 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Natasha wrote:
You would need a lot of infrastructure to capture radio signals. Laser communications are line-of-sight (even at an Earth-Mars distance, to a large extent), however.


How so? I mean, radio signals tend to travel in waves, whereas laser is, as I understand it, harder to intercept without being physically in the path of the laser.


Both laser and radio signals are electromagnetic waves. Both can be focused in a specific direction, and receivers for both can collect really well from a specific direction. Both are effectively line-of-sight.

That said, you do not need a lot of infrastructure to capture most radio signals unless you're using very low frequencies.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
As I said, I was explaining it as simply as possible,


No, you said it was possible, and then provided no evidence to back that claim up.

Quote:
and I refuse to waste the time required to type a 5 page dissertation on how the CS and NGR could have done things to make it into space.


Then dont participate in the discussion. You cant just make a claim and then provide nothing to back it up.

Quote:
Suffice it to say, yes weapons could be developed to achieve the goal, and leave it at that.


Not for about 200 years, or so. We're told that in terms of everything other than personal weapons and armor technology, Rifts Earth is 200+ years behind the Three Galaxies.

Quote:
It's one of those things the game writers really didn't want to have happen, so it won't happen in canon.
It isn't magical thinking.


Its nearly the dictionary definition of magical thinking. "They just will, 'cause i said so."

Quote:
Nor is it moving goal posts.


Not something i said you did in this topic.

Quote:
Nor am I flagrantly violating board rules by making personal attacks which,


I haven't made any personal attacks. Youll know if i do, it wont be vague. Unlike almost everyone else here, i have nothing but contempt for the moderation staff, and if i feel you need to be told off, ill be happy to do it.

Quote:
with proper moderation,


You have no idea what proper moderation is. What you're asking for is moderators to protect you from the consequences of posting bad ideas. You want a criticism shield. You somehow believe, like a lot of regressives, that being criticized = "an attack". It isn't.

Quote:
should be cause for a warning or the like.
I can see why people quit these boards, and why they're kind of dead.


These boards are dead because the game is dead. There's no way around that. Palladium as a whole is on life support. Thats not a dig at them, necessarily, its just the way things are. The lack of competent moderation has almost nothing to do with that, though it is a small component. If you think me criticising you is a sing of "bad moderation" - you wouldn't make it 10 seconds at Paizo's forums. Or the forums of any other large publisher.

Quote:
As for the "why" of the CS/ NGR achieving space travel, I can think of several tactical and strategic reasons to do so. Maybe for some of the same reasons the US and USSR went to such lengths? Hmmm...


Which are all completely invalidated by the nature of Rifts Earth and the super technology available. the primary reason they needed to be in space was things like satellite coverage, and communication.

Which can be accomplished without going into space. Without spending 200 years trying to figure out how to make a ship tough enough to get through a counter-debris field and killsats they dont even know exist.

OR, they could build a few hundred more X-5001s.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 5:15 pm
  

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Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
Mark Hall wrote:
Natasha wrote:
You would need a lot of infrastructure to capture radio signals. Laser communications are line-of-sight (even at an Earth-Mars distance, to a large extent), however.


How so? I mean, radio signals tend to travel in waves, whereas laser is, as I understand it, harder to intercept without being physically in the path of the laser.

My apologies. I'm not doing well with English today. What I meant was: the nature of electromagnetic beam spreading means it is conceivable (off the top of my head) that Earth will at times fall within the radio beam, but probably not a laser beam. Capturing and making sense of the captured radio waves requires a fair bit of deliberate work.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:15 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
As I said, I was explaining it as simply as possible,


No, you said it was possible, and then provided no evidence to back that claim up.

Quote:
and I refuse to waste the time required to type a 5 page dissertation on how the CS and NGR could have done things to make it into space.


Then dont participate in the discussion. You cant just make a claim and then provide nothing to back it up.

Quote:
Suffice it to say, yes weapons could be developed to achieve the goal, and leave it at that.


Not for about 200 years, or so. We're told that in terms of everything other than personal weapons and armor technology, Rifts Earth is 200+ years behind the Three Galaxies.

Quote:
It's one of those things the game writers really didn't want to have happen, so it won't happen in canon.
It isn't magical thinking.


Its nearly the dictionary definition of magical thinking. "They just will, 'cause i said so."

Quote:
Nor is it moving goal posts.


Not something i said you did in this topic.

Quote:
Nor am I flagrantly violating board rules by making personal attacks which,


I haven't made any personal attacks. Youll know if i do, it wont be vague. Unlike almost everyone else here, i have nothing but contempt for the moderation staff, and if i feel you need to be told off, ill be happy to do it.

Quote:
with proper moderation,


You have no idea what proper moderation is. What you're asking for is moderators to protect you from the consequences of posting bad ideas. You want a criticism shield. You somehow believe, like a lot of regressives, that being criticized = "an attack". It isn't.

Quote:
should be cause for a warning or the like.
I can see why people quit these boards, and why they're kind of dead.


These boards are dead because the game is dead. There's no way around that. Palladium as a whole is on life support. Thats not a dig at them, necessarily, its just the way things are. The lack of competent moderation has almost nothing to do with that, though it is a small component. If you think me criticising you is a sing of "bad moderation" - you wouldn't make it 10 seconds at Paizo's forums. Or the forums of any other large publisher.

Quote:
As for the "why" of the CS/ NGR achieving space travel, I can think of several tactical and strategic reasons to do so. Maybe for some of the same reasons the US and USSR went to such lengths? Hmmm...


Which are all completely invalidated by the nature of Rifts Earth and the super technology available. the primary reason they needed to be in space was things like satellite coverage, and communication.

Which can be accomplished without going into space. Without spending 200 years trying to figure out how to make a ship tough enough to get through a counter-debris field and killsats they dont even know exist.

OR, they could build a few hundred more X-5001s.


Brotha, dial it back a little bit.

Palladium isn't "dead" but it is a small independent company that could use an update to the system. It's in need of some revisions (and a more aggressive output of products) but nothing that couldn't be done in very short order if Kevin wanted to.

I mean, heck, revising the skill system - Updating the combat system - Tweak some of the more problematic rules and one could easily breathe new life into the system.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:00 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:50 pm
  

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Natasha wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Natasha wrote:
You would need a lot of infrastructure to capture radio signals. Laser communications are line-of-sight (even at an Earth-Mars distance, to a large extent), however.


How so? I mean, radio signals tend to travel in waves, whereas laser is, as I understand it, harder to intercept without being physically in the path of the laser.

My apologies. I'm not doing well with English today. What I meant was: the nature of electromagnetic beam spreading means it is conceivable (off the top of my head) that Earth will at times fall within the radio beam, but probably not a laser beam. Capturing and making sense of the captured radio waves requires a fair bit of deliberate work.


Depends on the type of antenna. If you're using a parabolic dish aimed at a very specific point, then yeah, that's hard (ish) to intercept. If you're using a dipole (simple stick) antenna, it's pretty easy.
'

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:42 am
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Another problem is logistics. If you do a rough order of magnitude calculation with the ranges given in MiO, you'll need somewhere on the order of hundreds of thousands of killer satellites to barely cover Earth, and that's ignoring the practical difficulty of targeting something moving at around 4 miles per second with weapon systems with maximum ranges of 5-10 miles.

The math behind MiO really doesn't check out.

1st. Palladium Math never checks out.

2nd. The Logistics could be explained if we look at the Kill Sats as part of a layered defense System. After all the Kill Sats work with both the Counter Orbit Debris Field and manned patrols. They may not have to cover the entire earth either, they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through (they don't get you right away, but they will get you).

Hotrod wrote:
Virtually the entire orbital community, despite getting into frequent shooting wars with each other and being so resource-starved that stuff like air and water is money to them, has worked together and in harmony to screw over Earth, a place from which they might otherwise be able to get an abundant supply of air and water. Humanity in orbit has decided to give humanity on Earth the finger for 300 years straight and can't seem to figure out what's going on despite being able to literally look down at Earth and see stuff, having all kinds of radio traffic coming from the planet, and having resources aplenty to send some probes down there.

Re: Orbital Co-op and their squabbling
It could be that they established the equivalent of a multi-national entity who they all fund. Sort of like UN or other international agency (World Health Organization).

Re: Earth for Resources
While it is true the Orbitals would find Earth very resource rich in terms of air/water. It is also true they would find it very "expensive" to "mine" those resources if they went all the way down to the surface.

From a propulsion standpoint (real world) they would need to use ~1.7x the propulsive energy as it would take to go from LEO to Lunar Surface (using energy efficient trajectory) just to get to LEO from Earth's surface. For the various stations the propulsive energy requirements would require is ~2.4x or more, when you factor in transit costs after reaching LEO to respective destinations the propulsive energy required is just going to go up. It would literally be "cheaper" to go the long distance and mine the stuff from Mars. Even Jupiter and Saturn are "cheaper" (though depending on the specific moon chosen it might not be).


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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:14 am
  

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I had a friend (I believe it was phalanx) who did the math on the CODF, and figured they'd need something like the mass of Jupiter to keep it going, since stuff would constantly deorbit and burn up.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:52 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
I had a friend (I believe it was phalanx) who did the math on the CODF, and figured they'd need something like the mass of Jupiter to keep it going, since stuff would constantly deorbit and burn up.


Depends on how high the debris field is. If you're talking about just outside the atmosphere (like the ISS), then yeah, atmospheric drag is a problem. Go up another 50-100 miles, and that stuff will stay up a lot longer.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:32 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another problem is logistics. If you do a rough order of magnitude calculation with the ranges given in MiO, you'll need somewhere on the order of hundreds of thousands of killer satellites to barely cover Earth, and that's ignoring the practical difficulty of targeting something moving at around 4 miles per second with weapon systems with maximum ranges of 5-10 miles.

The math behind MiO really doesn't check out.

1st. Palladium Math never checks out.

2nd. The Logistics could be explained if we look at the Kill Sats as part of a layered defense System. After all the Kill Sats work with both the Counter Orbit Debris Field and manned patrols. They may not have to cover the entire earth either, they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through (they don't get you right away, but they will get you).

I agree that any space-denial effort would have to be layerd, else certain pathways of debris would be constantly colliding with others, and the kilelr satellites would get shredded by the debris field. Thus both the debris field and the satellites would be in different orbits at different altitudes. Here's the problem, though: unless those satellites have huge amounts of free delta-V, they won't be able to hover over specific spots or chase gaps in the debris field.

You mention that they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through, but there is no basis for such a zone. You can take off into orbit from anywhere on Earth, and the further you get away from Earth, the larger of an area you need to interdict and the more satellites you need, especially considering the laughably inadequate range of the killer satellite weapons.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Virtually the entire orbital community, despite getting into frequent shooting wars with each other and being so resource-starved that stuff like air and water is money to them, has worked together and in harmony to screw over Earth, a place from which they might otherwise be able to get an abundant supply of air and water. Humanity in orbit has decided to give humanity on Earth the finger for 300 years straight and can't seem to figure out what's going on despite being able to literally look down at Earth and see stuff, having all kinds of radio traffic coming from the planet, and having resources aplenty to send some probes down there.

Re: Orbital Co-op and their squabbling
It could be that they established the equivalent of a multi-national entity who they all fund. Sort of like UN or other international agency (World Health Organization).

Re: Earth for Resources
While it is true the Orbitals would find Earth very resource rich in terms of air/water. It is also true they would find it very "expensive" to "mine" those resources if they went all the way down to the surface.

From a propulsion standpoint (real world) they would need to use ~1.7x the propulsive energy as it would take to go from LEO to Lunar Surface (using energy efficient trajectory) just to get to LEO from Earth's surface. For the various stations the propulsive energy requirements would require is ~2.4x or more, when you factor in transit costs after reaching LEO to respective destinations the propulsive energy required is just going to go up. It would literally be "cheaper" to go the long distance and mine the stuff from Mars. Even Jupiter and Saturn are "cheaper" (though depending on the specific moon chosen it might not be).

The WHO has an annual budget of $4.422 billion. In terms of the global economy, it's a drop in a barrel. The scale of the blockade the Orbitals are doing would require huge chunks of their resources. I would argue that even a total mobilization of all the orbitals couldn't be effective, but even if it didn't, the amount of resources, manpower, time, and coordination would be more akin to something like the combined might of NATO and its constituent members' militaries.

In terms of delta-V requirements, it may be more efficient to bring resources in from other planets, but when you consider delivery times and coordination issues, there's really no comparison; Earth has essentially limitless fuel and resources (everything is harder when you can't breathe outside), is close enough to communicate in realtime with the orbitals, and can get to anywhere in Earth orbit (including the Moon) in a matter of a few days vs months or years from other planets.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:44 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
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ShadowLogan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Another problem is logistics. If you do a rough order of magnitude calculation with the ranges given in MiO, you'll need somewhere on the order of hundreds of thousands of killer satellites to barely cover Earth, and that's ignoring the practical difficulty of targeting something moving at around 4 miles per second with weapon systems with maximum ranges of 5-10 miles.

The math behind MiO really doesn't check out.

1st. Palladium Math never checks out.

2nd. The Logistics could be explained if we look at the Kill Sats as part of a layered defense System. After all the Kill Sats work with both the Counter Orbit Debris Field and manned patrols. They may not have to cover the entire earth either, they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through (they don't get you right away, but they will get you).

Hotrod wrote:
Virtually the entire orbital community, despite getting into frequent shooting wars with each other and being so resource-starved that stuff like air and water is money to them, has worked together and in harmony to screw over Earth, a place from which they might otherwise be able to get an abundant supply of air and water. Humanity in orbit has decided to give humanity on Earth the finger for 300 years straight and can't seem to figure out what's going on despite being able to literally look down at Earth and see stuff, having all kinds of radio traffic coming from the planet, and having resources aplenty to send some probes down there.

Re: Orbital Co-op and their squabbling
It could be that they established the equivalent of a multi-national entity who they all fund. Sort of like UN or other international agency (World Health Organization).

Re: Earth for Resources
While it is true the Orbitals would find Earth very resource rich in terms of air/water. It is also true they would find it very "expensive" to "mine" those resources if they went all the way down to the surface.

From a propulsion standpoint (real world) they would need to use ~1.7x the propulsive energy as it would take to go from LEO to Lunar Surface (using energy efficient trajectory) just to get to LEO from Earth's surface. For the various stations the propulsive energy requirements would require is ~2.4x or more, when you factor in transit costs after reaching LEO to respective destinations the propulsive energy required is just going to go up. It would literally be "cheaper" to go the long distance and mine the stuff from Mars. Even Jupiter and Saturn are "cheaper" (though depending on the specific moon chosen it might not be).



Assuming the Arkhons don't blow the Orbital communities' ships out of the stars, as well, when they try to mine the asteroid field...
Before the arrival of the Arkhons, sure, I could see the orbital communities staying Balkanized and mining moons and so on; after the arrival, however, the orbital communities would fall quickly if they didn't unite. The Earth would also be the most logical place to go for resources. This means they'd really need to ally with someone on-planet.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:39 pm
  

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Love your setting tweak Hotrod.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:42 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
Love your setting tweak Hotrod.

Thanks! Maybe I’ll develop it a bit more sometime.

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:48 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am
Posts: 1247
my biggest issue with rifts space as described in mutants in orbit is that the numbers don't work as was mentioned. also while "conventional" rockets are limited in ways that make the counter orbit debris field effective.... even slightly higher tech (like robotech veritechs) mean that you have enough thrust and fuel to launch against the rotation of the earth.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:59 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6394
Location: WI
Hotrod wrote:
Here's the problem, though: unless those satellites have huge amounts of free delta-V, they won't be able to hover over specific spots or chase gaps in the debris field.

There are solutions:
1. the satellites are in GEO with weapons that can reachout and touch LEO (this gets into range issue, most Rifts setting weapons don't have the range, even PW ships generally don't)
2. the satellites have a lot of Delta-V as you say either natively OR they get refueled often enough to make this viable (due to the number of satellites I don't think this is going to work)
3. Space Teathers. Teathering the satellite at lower altitude to one that is higher up would be one way (real world physics dictates this should work)
4. Constellations. You have multiple satellites in an orbit that move into position to cover one area as another leaves it.
5. Palladium Physics (ie we make things behave like in atmospheric flight to make things "simpler")

Hotrod wrote:
You mention that they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through, but there is no basis for such a zone. You can take off into orbit from anywhere on Earth, and the further you get away from Earth, the larger of an area you need to interdict and the more satellites you need, especially considering the laughably inadequate range of the killer satellite weapons.

To a point yes and no. Orbits in general tend to cross the equatorial plane. So I am saying focus a defense on the equatorial plane (and near it covering some of the other latitude lines), so that when the interlopers cross it is when you attack (essentially you create a choke point unless they resort to more exotic orbits).

Hotrod wrote:
The scale of the blockade the Orbitals are doing would require huge chunks of their resources. I would argue that even a total mobilization of all the orbitals couldn't be effective, but even if it didn't, the amount of resources, manpower, time, and coordination would be more akin to something like the combined might of NATO and its constituent members' militaries.

Weather they Orbitals have the resources is another matter, its weather there is some precedent that can be shown to have "squabbling" nations working together by committing resources. NATO in some respects is a good analog, but most NATO members don't squabble with each other (in terms of coming to armed conflict with each other) which is why I used the UN or WHO as examples, you have member states that are squabbling yet committing resources to it.

Hotrod wrote:
In terms of delta-V requirements, it may be more efficient to bring resources in from other planets, but when you consider delivery times and coordination issues, there's really no comparison; Earth has essentially limitless fuel and resources (everything is harder when you can't breathe outside), is close enough to communicate in realtime with the orbitals, and can get to anywhere in Earth orbit (including the Moon) in a matter of a few days vs months or years from other planets.

While delivery times might be longer, it can be shown to be more economical (O'Neil Colonies, Space Solar Power, etc are all big construction projects that show it is more economical to not use Earth except for things that can't be procured).

The Moon itself technically can provide Oxygen (it is chemically present on the Moon combined with various metals). It can even provide Hydrogen (when MiO was written the presence was unknown, though theorized). Really the Orbitals don't lack for resources, what they might lack is the capability to exploit those resources to meet their needs.

Fenris2020 wrote:
The Earth would also be the most logical place to go for resources. This means they'd really need to ally with someone on-planet.

No Earth is not the most logical place to go for resources. They essentially have the resources of the ENTIRE Solar System to exploit minus one planet.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:13 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 2966
Location: Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy
ShadowLogan wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Here's the problem, though: unless those satellites have huge amounts of free delta-V, they won't be able to hover over specific spots or chase gaps in the debris field.

There are solutions:
1. the satellites are in GEO with weapons that can reachout and touch LEO (this gets into range issue, most Rifts setting weapons don't have the range, even PW ships generally don't)
2. the satellites have a lot of Delta-V as you say either natively OR they get refueled often enough to make this viable (due to the number of satellites I don't think this is going to work)
3. Space Teathers. Teathering the satellite at lower altitude to one that is higher up would be one way (real world physics dictates this should work)
4. Constellations. You have multiple satellites in an orbit that move into position to cover one area as another leaves it.
5. Palladium Physics (ie we make things behave like in atmospheric flight to make things "simpler")

Hotrod wrote:
You mention that they could focus on a zone that orbital objects would have to pass through, but there is no basis for such a zone. You can take off into orbit from anywhere on Earth, and the further you get away from Earth, the larger of an area you need to interdict and the more satellites you need, especially considering the laughably inadequate range of the killer satellite weapons.

To a point yes and no. Orbits in general tend to cross the equatorial plane. So I am saying focus a defense on the equatorial plane (and near it covering some of the other latitude lines), so that when the interlopers cross it is when you attack (essentially you create a choke point unless they resort to more exotic orbits).

Hotrod wrote:
The scale of the blockade the Orbitals are doing would require huge chunks of their resources. I would argue that even a total mobilization of all the orbitals couldn't be effective, but even if it didn't, the amount of resources, manpower, time, and coordination would be more akin to something like the combined might of NATO and its constituent members' militaries.

Weather they Orbitals have the resources is another matter, its weather there is some precedent that can be shown to have "squabbling" nations working together by committing resources. NATO in some respects is a good analog, but most NATO members don't squabble with each other (in terms of coming to armed conflict with each other) which is why I used the UN or WHO as examples, you have member states that are squabbling yet committing resources to it.

Hotrod wrote:
In terms of delta-V requirements, it may be more efficient to bring resources in from other planets, but when you consider delivery times and coordination issues, there's really no comparison; Earth has essentially limitless fuel and resources (everything is harder when you can't breathe outside), is close enough to communicate in realtime with the orbitals, and can get to anywhere in Earth orbit (including the Moon) in a matter of a few days vs months or years from other planets.

While delivery times might be longer, it can be shown to be more economical (O'Neil Colonies, Space Solar Power, etc are all big construction projects that show it is more economical to not use Earth except for things that can't be procured).

The Moon itself technically can provide Oxygen (it is chemically present on the Moon combined with various metals). It can even provide Hydrogen (when MiO was written the presence was unknown, though theorized). Really the Orbitals don't lack for resources, what they might lack is the capability to exploit those resources to meet their needs.

Fenris2020 wrote:
The Earth would also be the most logical place to go for resources. This means they'd really need to ally with someone on-planet.

No Earth is not the most logical place to go for resources. They essentially have the resources of the ENTIRE Solar System to exploit minus one planet.


I get the sense that you and I fundamentally agree that the setting as described is unworkable. You seem to prefer changing the numbers, stats, and technical content to better fit the description. I prefer changing the description. I can respect either approach.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:20 am
  

Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am
Posts: 192
I like Mutants in Orbit. I don't think it should be scrapped. I do think it can be updated. Maybe even split so that the After the Bomb parts are placed into a new Space book that incorporates elements from the TMNT books. The Rifts part would be expanded and updated to being everything up to date and include the Archons on Mars. I know I shouldn't hold my breath but I can hope for it.

As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation. It be like the old world abandoning the new world after America's Revolutionary War, and then having England show up during their WWI and ask for help. After so many years of separation the American's would either say, "Who the hell's England and why should we help her?" or "The Redcoats are coming! Open fire!" Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.

When it comes to communications, what communications? Those in Orbit watched their world die and be taken over by monsters. Who would they communicate with? After so many years and so much destruction, how many on Earth even know about the Orbitals? Why would they communicate with them? Even if they knew people were up or down there what would they say? "Send me a pizza?" And what about encryption? I would think those with communications strong enough would use encryption of broadcast an open signal which might not be a good thing. And unless the receiving party has the code all they'd receive is gibberish.

I don't think telescopes would help either. What would they see? The Orbitals shooting at each other and the moon along with anyone else that gets close. Looking down it'd be the same, lots of shooting.

I'm not sure the debris field is as bad as it once was. A lot would have burnt up over the years. I do however think that the Orbitals do dump the garbage in orbit to try to keep the debris field up. Along with killer satellites. But I also think there's other threats that get blamed on the debris field. I don't think the Splugorth would want the those on the ground and those in orbit working with each other. The Splugorth with their Kittani army I'm sure could get into orbit with minimal problem. They probably don't except to defeat any attempts from the humans to get to orbit or land on earth.


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