Glitter Boy ammo drum capacity poll

[Mlp7029]

Main boom originally said Glitter Boy ammo drum holds 100 rounds updated in Unlimited edition to 1000 rounds. Personally I do not think an ammo drum that looks to be 4 feet long by about 1 foot in diameter could hold a 1000 rounds. Curious what others are using in their games.

[glitterboy2098]

the first "update" was in free quebec, where the capacity was listed as 100 shot for the main and 400 shots of the backup (instead of the 40 shots from every use prior)

basically, a typo was made in the secondary ammo drum listing, and when they went back to fix it they 'fixed' it by adding a zero to the main instead of removing the extra zero from the secondary. leaving the GB with an ammo supply far too physically large to fit on the suit (literally.. the GB is one of the few suits where we are given ammo size info, and at 7inches long and about two wide [similar size as a soda can], 1000 rounds of ammo takes up almost as much space as the suit itself.)

[ShadowLogan]

I voted "other".

Palladium Editing being what it is, its what ever the GM wants to use (or "edition" of the game).

However, if you are looking for a way to make things make some amount of sense... I would go with their being two (or more) types of ammo feeds that the Boomgun can take (and the Glitterboy can mount) and the 100/40 is the old standard with the newer 1000/400 being a recent development. Basically it works that the 1000/400 drums are physically larger, both in terms of internal volume (as it has to be), but also the enclosed feed line would have to be longer (to allow for the extra ammo and cut down on the volume the drum has to hold, doesn't help the reload bag).

We see something like this with the C-40R (various SAMAS types) or C-33 (CS aircraft in CWC) and NG-202 (NG Samson vs Redhawk versions) for example. So we know there are drums that can come in different sizes for the same weapon, granted all the examples I can quickly thing of are for different units, but at least the SAMAS are related...

[eliakon]

I voted Other
It should be 100/40 and that is what I use in my games.
But as GB points out there was a typo that got doubled down on and it is now officially canon that it is 1000/400 regardless of the size issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

I voted Other
It should be 100/40 and that is what I use in my games.
But as GB points out there was a typo that got doubled down on and it is now officially canon that it is 1000/400 regardless of the size issue.

^This

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

100/40 also fits better with most other ammo capacities for PA suits/heavy weapons, with 50-100 “shots” worth of ammo being fairly common.

I also voted “other” for the “it should be 100, but canon says 1000, and in my game, id say 100.”

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

100. I do not let typos get in the way of reality, nor control how I run a game.

[drewkitty ~..~]

agrees with eliakon.

[Proseksword]

1000 basically invalidates reloading as a tactical weakness, despite it being constantly mentioned as such. Ergo, it's still 100 for me.

[kaid]

100/40 also fits better with most other ammo capacities for PA suits/heavy weapons, with 50-100 “shots” worth of ammo being fairly common.

I also voted “other” for the “it should be 100, but canon says 1000, and in my game, id say 100.”

100/40 was what my group used. It is comparable for most similar units for larger single round firing weapons. Given how potent the glitterboy is that is more than enough rounds to wreck the day of anything you encounter.

The thousand round capacity seemed odd because you would probably go months between reloading.

[dreicunan]

Canon is canon, so I chose 1000, but IIRC I think that the last game that I played with one ran it as 200 and 80 for the capacities.

[Axelmania]

the first "update" was in free quebec, where the capacity was listed as 100 shot for the main and 400 shots of the backup (instead of the 40 shots from every use prior)

basically, a typo was made in the secondary ammo drum listing, and when they went back to fix it they 'fixed' it by adding a zero to the main instead of removing the extra zero from the secondary. leaving the GB with an ammo supply far too physically large to fit on the suit (literally.. the GB is one of the few suits where we are given ammo size info, and at 7inches long and about two wide [similar size as a soda can], 1000 rounds of ammo takes up almost as much space as the suit itself.)

I wasn't aware of this 40>400 b4 100>1000 problem. Thanks for highlighting it. It might be interesting for us to put together a picture guide of this to explain it. Though it does still beg the question why the free PDF errata hasn't fixed it. Though it could just be that they did a fire+forget that instead of publishing multiple free errata as more problems were located with the RUE text, so a lack of as 2nd update can't be seen as that condemning.

I do like the idea of a glitter boy who carries 22 extra ammo drums for an extra 880 shots bringing his total to 980 shots. What's the worse that could happen by throwing all those on his back? Would it be extremely painful?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

100/40 also fits better with most other ammo capacities for PA suits/heavy weapons, with 50-100 “shots” worth of ammo being fairly common.

I also voted “other” for the “it should be 100, but canon says 1000, and in my game, id say 100.”

100/40 was what my group used. It is comparable for most similar units for larger single round firing weapons. Given how potent the glitterboy is that is more than enough rounds to wreck the day of anything you encounter.

The thousand round capacity seemed odd because you would probably go months between reloading.

Well, i imagine FQ probably sees a lot more need to reload. At roughly 28-30 (or more) shots per minute... really wouldnt take long for you to burn through 1000 rounds in a sustained engagement... like their war with the CS. Of course, Rifts rarely keeps it very realistic for the amount of ammo people carry in real warzones.

During vietnam, it was pretty common for a squad/unit going out on patrol for each guy to be carrying a thousand or more rounds.

Imagine a group of soldiers from FQ and the CS getting into a pitched battle. Theyd all be out of ammo in like two minutes (carrying the 6-8 eclips the books list as standard).

[Killer Cyborg]

During vietnam, it was pretty common for a squad/unit going out on patrol for each guy to be carrying a thousand or more rounds.

For the main gun on tanks...?

[glitterboy2098]

actually, a standard issue for vietnam was around 210 rounds. (7x 30round magazines) however many soldiers would carry extra in their backpacks even on regular patrols, since on full auto you could blow through those 7 mags pretty fast, even using short controlled bursts. (during WW2 the standard issue was called a "unit of fire" and represented the amont of ammo expected to be used in a single day's fighting.. troops with the M1 Garand received 150 rounds, while those issued a Thompson got 200.) machine gunners often carried several belts of ammo, hundreds if not thusands of rounds total.. but they also could blow through a thousand rounds or more in a couple minute firefight. but machinegunner had dedicated partners to hump all that ammo around (especially since it was larger caliber than the rifle rounds, and thus heavier), the gunner himself usually had at most one or two belts.. amounting to about ~200 rounds. (and the guy carrying the ammo usually had minimal ammo load for his rifle, or was only assigned a pistol.. he wasn't supposed to be shooting in a fight, he was supposed to be loading the MG)

but in the case of the glitterboy, Main battle Tanks are a closer comparison, especially given that the GB's RG-14 Railgun is an anti-tank cannon. most tanks, be they MBT's. medium tanks, or mobile gun systems/light tanks, only carry 50 to 100 rounds, depending on the caliber of their gun and the size of the vehicle.

[eliakon]

I would also point out that at 1000/400 the GB has better ammunition stores (by an order of magnitude or more) than any other rail gun equipped combatant short of battle ships and their ilk.
Every other robot and power armor gets 30 or 50 or 100 or for some of the huge ones 200 or so shots before they are down for reloading...
Which makes since because the 100/40 number was originally picked to allow the GB to have a load out similar to those other rail gun systems.
I have yet to ever see a GB using the new load run out of ammunition. Even in a major battle the mind boggles at the thought of a combat that would last 150-200 rounds (we are talking 30 minutes to over an hour here!) of continuous fire and still not be able to have one side or the other finish off their opponents. Quebec has those combat reload teams for a reason (or at least they did. They are pretty pointless now though...)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

During vietnam, it was pretty common for a squad/unit going out on patrol for each guy to be carrying a thousand or more rounds.

For the main gun on tanks...?

.... since this line is from a paragraph dealing with how badly Rifts does ammo for infantry (in fact, following a description of such), this obviously disingenous and trolling comment has what to do with anything, exactly?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

actually, a standard issue for vietnam was around 210 rounds. (7x 30round magazines) however many soldiers would carry extra in their backpacks even on regular patrols, since on full auto you could blow through those 7 mags pretty fast, even using short controlled bursts..

I never said a thing about standard issue. I mentioned what was common. (Also, none of the standard issue rifles in Vietnam used 30 round magazines at the time. Both the M-14 and M-16, at the time, used 20 round magazines, and the Early M-16 magazines were often only loaded with 18 rounds because of a tendency to mis-feed if fully loaded, thoughnthis was corrected later, shortly before the 30 round magazine became standard.)

Standard issue also depended entirely on your assignment, unit, and which of the Armed forces you were actually a member of. Army Air cavalry, for instance, carried 420 rounds for the M-16 when deployed, and often stayed out for two+ weeks at a time, receiving supplies every 3-4 days by helo. They rarely carried more, because if they came under heavy attack, they could expect quick reinforcement by their commander.

Marine infantry often carried *far* more ammo (not as “standard issue”, but by choice) out on patrol because they often could NOT expect quick reinforcement, and going black on ammo = you died. Same with Army Infantry. It was not uncommon for them to carry 2-3x the “standard” amount of ammo, for the same reason.

If youre wondering where i got my information, some comes from various militarynsites, but a lot comes from a guy who was there. The author of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Helmet-Memo ... B0006F1SZ0

Is a family friend. Book is also well worth the read if youre into that kind of thing.

[Axelmania]

Worth keeping in mind too that each shot from a Glitterboy is a burst of 200 flechettes inside that round, so 100 shots was actually 100 bursts of 2000 flechettes.

1000 rounds increases this to 1000 bursts of 20,000 flechettes total.

[Shark_Force]

100/40 also fits better with most other ammo capacities for PA suits/heavy weapons, with 50-100 “shots” worth of ammo being fairly common.

I also voted “other” for the “it should be 100, but canon says 1000, and in my game, id say 100.”

100/40 was what my group used. It is comparable for most similar units for larger single round firing weapons. Given how potent the glitterboy is that is more than enough rounds to wreck the day of anything you encounter.

The thousand round capacity seemed odd because you would probably go months between reloading.

Well, i imagine FQ probably sees a lot more need to reload. At roughly 28-30 (or more) shots per minute... really wouldnt take long for you to burn through 1000 rounds in a sustained engagement... like their war with the CS. Of course, Rifts rarely keeps it very realistic for the amount of ammo people carry in real warzones.

During vietnam, it was pretty common for a squad/unit going out on patrol for each guy to be carrying a thousand or more rounds.

Imagine a group of soldiers from FQ and the CS getting into a pitched battle. Theyd all be out of ammo in like two minutes (carrying the 6-8 eclips the books list as standard).

2 minutes of constant fire from a glitter boy is likely enough for the enemy to overrun you (if they're going to) or to decide that maybe they should try a different plan in most situations.

if you presume glitter boys don't just fire constantly (maybe they need to dodge incoming fire, move to new positions, etc), it will of course last much longer.

[Killer Cyborg]

During vietnam, it was pretty common for a squad/unit going out on patrol for each guy to be carrying a thousand or more rounds.

For the main gun on tanks...?

.... since this line is from a paragraph dealing with how badly Rifts does ammo for infantry (in fact, following a description of such), this obviously disingenous and trolling comment has what to do with anything, exactly?

It has to do with the fact that GBs aren't infantry--they're armor.
Trying to compare them to infantry is incredibly inaccurate. Even absurd.
Moreover, you're comparing armor that only fires one round (well, one volley of 200) per trigger activation versus infantry that had selective fire weapons, making it even more inaccurate.

[Jefffar]

Trying to justify the GB's ammo load based on comparisons to modern fighting forces is futile. GBs combine the characteristics of infantry and armour plus add in a few unique capabilities (ie limited flight).

[dreicunan]

Perhaps we've missed a less obvious solution. Maybe Kevin S has worked in a minor tribute to a beloved Sci-Fi franchise from across the pond, but to avoid legal issues made it really obscure. Boom guns and the spare ammo can are able to hold 1000/400 is that they are bigger on the inside.

[ShadowLogan]

Perhaps we've missed a less obvious solution. Maybe Kevin S has worked in a minor tribute to a beloved Sci-Fi franchise from across the pond, but to avoid legal issues made it really obscure. Boom guns and the spare ammo can are able to hold 1000/400 is that they are bigger on the inside.

Or you know maybe they found a way to make the slugs smaller without losing performance. RMB fired at Mach2, RUE fires at Mach 5. So you can reduce the size of the slugs w/o losing performance.

I know its only x2.5 factor in terms of speed, and not x10. Fully loaded weight hasn't changed between RMB and RUE either, so the rounds are x10 lighter now to maintain the same weight/mass.

[DhAkael]

100 "clusters" of flechette rounds. I go by the orginal Keven Long illos, and even then He'd have to cram those sabots cheek-to-jowel in the ammo-drum.
The ONLY way I'd see the 1,000 clusters happening is if someone got some advanced dimensional technology and built a hammer-space magazine.

[DhAkael]

Perhaps we've missed a less obvious solution. Maybe Kevin S has worked in a minor tribute to a beloved Sci-Fi franchise from across the pond, but to avoid legal issues made it really obscure. Boom guns and the spare ammo can are able to hold 1000/400 is that they are bigger on the inside.

Just posted a justification using that very thing... though in geek circles having weapons / ammo way to large to carry normally requires 'Hammer-space' (re; carrying a circus fairground mallet in a coin purse).

[guardiandashi]

I had a char that did that, of course at that point she was essentially a god but...

she carried multiple weapons in dimensional space "pockets" including one in which the "guts" of the gun were in a bent space pocket, and only poked out when it was fired.

the char had a syncro-cannon from robotech, built into a shemmarian railgun (the old 6000) shell so it looked like she was pointing a shemmarian railgun at people, until she fired, then a 50ft wide beam of death went off in the direction she was aiming.

[dreicunan]

Perhaps we've missed a less obvious solution. Maybe Kevin S has worked in a minor tribute to a beloved Sci-Fi franchise from across the pond, but to avoid legal issues made it really obscure. Boom guns and the spare ammo can are able to hold 1000/400 is that they are bigger on the inside.

Just posted a justification using that very thing... though in geek circles having weapons / ammo way to large to carry normally requires 'Hammer-space' (re; carrying a circus fairground mallet in a coin purse).

I prefer my geeky bigger on the inside weapons to be powered by an exploding star in the act of becoming a black hole suspended in a permanent state of decay.

[Mack]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Interesting. IIRC, the ammo drum is horizontally oriented behind the shoulders. Id be willing to bet its about 4’ wide... huh.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Interesting. Right around the size of a footlocker. Thanks for figuring that out.

I doubt the flechettes would be made of lead. Most likely steel. Or nickel. Lead is too soft. Even traveling at supersonic speeds, I don't think you'd get very good penetration. And maybe someone that knows the math better than me could tell you more, but at that speed they might have enough friction with the air to deform, losing accuracy. But it's been a long time since I've tried to calculate that kind of thing, and I don't remember how to do it anymore.

Of course, it you jacketed the lead like a rifle bullet, you could get more weight plus better penetration. Even better if you jacketed magnesium instead of lead.....

[dreicunan]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

So in other words, 1000 rounds out to be plausible?

[Jefffar]

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

[eliakon]

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

and that there is no functional difference in weight or performance between a round that is:
Regular
Bone
Silver
Wood
Depleted Uranium
Uranium (non-depleted)

Since there is absolutely zero mobility or encumbrance issues with any of these then one must assume that the regular rounds are at least as heavy and dense as the U-Rounds since otherwise those rounds would create weight issues...
I'm not sure how much 25cf of Uranium weighs but I'm betting its a lot. My back of the envelope calculations put it at around 1,460lbs.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

Well, theyre already made out of something super-special, because a flechette-style round is exactly the OPPOSITE of good at penetrating armor. Theyre usually used because they wont overpenetrate. (It should be a fin-stabilized sabot-discarding dart for anti-armor..)

Except for the Boom Gun (and related Shemarian railguns).

So whatever they are made of, its already mega special.

Im still just kinda amused that it is feasible-ish for 1000 rounds to actually fit in the ammo drum. Id still run it as 100/40, for balance reasons.

[glitterboy2098]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

So in other words, 1000 rounds out to be plausible?

except that a GB is 3.5 ammo drum widths tall (measured to the top of the head), giving us a width of about 3ft, and a diameter* of about 16 inches.
*remember the ammo drum is a cylinder.

also keep in mind that this is purely the outside dimensions.. there is going to be a certain thickness of armor involved, and even the space inside is going to include a fair amount of equipment for the Helical ammo storage. said storage is also not the most space efficient of methods (it is preferable because it has fewer feed issues over a more linear or box style system)

a 36hx16d cylinder has a volume of 7,238.23 cubic inches, while 1000 rounds of 7hx2.41d ammo takes up a total volume of 31,931.7 cubic inches. so ignoring the space needs of the ammo feed system and the armor, you would still need over four and a half of the drums on the GB illustration to hold 1000 rounds.

can the Drum on the GB feasibly hold more than 100 rounds? probably. but ten times? hell no. 150-200 rounds maybe, but not 1000. given we don't know the space the feed system takes up, nor the armor, 100 rounds is a reasonable number given these figures.

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

Well, theyre already made out of something super-special, because a flechette-style round is exactly the OPPOSITE of good at penetrating armor. Theyre usually used because they wont overpenetrate. (It should be a fin-stabilized sabot-discarding dart for anti-armor..)

you realize a APFSDS IS a Flechette round?
a Flechette is a long thin rod with pointed tip and fins for stabilization. they actually do have superior armor penetration over standard conical bullets, that is why so many arms manufacturers have tried to get Flechette ammo infantry weapons made, from Shotguns firing clusters of them to rifles firing special Sabot'd flechette rounds.

this is a Flechette, from the old Shotgun loads: http://www.libertytreecollectors.com/pr ... chette.JPG
this is the XM144 Flechette round, a ammo type designed in the 60's for the (then new) 5.56mm cartridge: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-cont ... xm144a.jpg

and this is a 120mm M829 APFSDS round: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... FSDS-T.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... shells.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rating.gif

all are flechettes. all are meant to be armor piercing. it just turned out that the shotgun rounds didn't fire the flechettes fast enough for the fins to keep them from tumbling, and the XM144 round didn't offer much improvement over regular AP ammo and had feed issues in most rifles. (not to mention higher costs). the only uses of small scale flechette right now are the russians.. and then only in specialized underwater firearms (the dart shape makes firing through water much easier, and gives the round better range.

[dreicunan]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

So in other words, 1000 rounds out to be plausible?

except that a GB is 3.5 ammo drum widths tall (measured to the top of the head), giving us a width of about 3ft, and a diameter* of about 16 inches.
*remember the ammo drum is a cylinder.

also keep in mind that this is purely the outside dimensions.. there is going to be a certain thickness of armor involved, and even the space inside is going to include a fair amount of equipment for the Helical ammo storage. said storage is also not the most space efficient of methods (it is preferable because it has fewer feed issues over a more linear or box style system)

a 36hx16d cylinder has a volume of 7,238.23 cubic inches, while 1000 rounds of 7hx2.41d ammo takes up a total volume of 31,931.7 cubic inches. so ignoring the space needs of the ammo feed system and the armor, you would still need over four and a half of the drums on the GB illustration to hold 1000 rounds.

can the Drum on the GB feasibly hold more than 100 rounds? probably. but ten times? hell no. 150-200 rounds maybe, but not 1000. given we don't know the space the feed system takes up, nor the armor, 100 rounds is a reasonable number given these figures.

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

Well, theyre already made out of something super-special, because a flechette-style round is exactly the OPPOSITE of good at penetrating armor. Theyre usually used because they wont overpenetrate. (It should be a fin-stabilized sabot-discarding dart for anti-armor..)

you realize a APFSDS IS a Flechette round?
a Flechette is a long thin rod with pointed tip and fins for stabilization. they actually do have superior armor penetration over standard conical bullets, that is why so many arms manufacturers have tried to get Flechette ammo infantry weapons made, from Shotguns firing clusters of them to rifles firing special Sabot'd flechette rounds.

this is a Flechette, from the old Shotgun loads: http://www.libertytreecollectors.com/pr ... chette.JPG
this is the XM144 Flechette round, a ammo type designed in the 60's for the (then new) 5.56mm cartridge: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-cont ... xm144a.jpg

and this is a 120mm M829 APFSDS round: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... FSDS-T.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... shells.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rating.gif

all are flechettes. all are meant to be armor piercing. it just turned out that the shotgun rounds didn't fire the flechettes fast enough for the fins to keep them from tumbling, and the XM144 round didn't offer much improvement over regular AP ammo and had feed issues in most rifles. (not to mention higher costs). the only uses of small scale flechette right now are the russians.. and then only in specialized underwater firearms (the dart shape makes firing through water much easier, and gives the round better range.

Well, I don't dispute your math, but I think that we just entered the "art isn't canon" zone, because the text for that illustration of the ammo drum still claims that it only holds 100 rounds or 20,000 slugs, and the text in the rules, of course, contradicts that. The irony here of course being that Mack got the dimensions for the slug from the same artwork.

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

So in other words, 1000 rounds out to be plausible?

except that a GB is 3.5 ammo drum widths tall (measured to the top of the head), giving us a width of about 3ft, and a diameter* of about 16 inches.
*remember the ammo drum is a cylinder.

also keep in mind that this is purely the outside dimensions.. there is going to be a certain thickness of armor involved, and even the space inside is going to include a fair amount of equipment for the Helical ammo storage. said storage is also not the most space efficient of methods (it is preferable because it has fewer feed issues over a more linear or box style system)

a 36hx16d cylinder has a volume of 7,238.23 cubic inches, while 1000 rounds of 7hx2.41d ammo takes up a total volume of 31,931.7 cubic inches. so ignoring the space needs of the ammo feed system and the armor, you would still need over four and a half of the drums on the GB illustration to hold 1000 rounds.

can the Drum on the GB feasibly hold more than 100 rounds? probably. but ten times? hell no. 150-200 rounds maybe, but not 1000. given we don't know the space the feed system takes up, nor the armor, 100 rounds is a reasonable number given these figures.

Provided the rounds are made of some lightweight but superstrong material dense enough to penetrate the hardest tank armour.

Well, theyre already made out of something super-special, because a flechette-style round is exactly the OPPOSITE of good at penetrating armor. Theyre usually used because they wont overpenetrate. (It should be a fin-stabilized sabot-discarding dart for anti-armor..)

you realize a APFSDS IS a Flechette round?
a Flechette is a long thin rod with pointed tip and fins for stabilization. they actually do have superior armor penetration over standard conical bullets, that is why so many arms manufacturers have tried to get Flechette ammo infantry weapons made, from Shotguns firing clusters of them to rifles firing special Sabot'd flechette rounds.

this is a Flechette, from the old Shotgun loads: http://www.libertytreecollectors.com/pr ... chette.JPG
this is the XM144 Flechette round, a ammo type designed in the 60's for the (then new) 5.56mm cartridge: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-cont ... xm144a.jpg

and this is a 120mm M829 APFSDS round: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... FSDS-T.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... shells.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rating.gif

all are flechettes. all are meant to be armor piercing. it just turned out that the shotgun rounds didn't fire the flechettes fast enough for the fins to keep them from tumbling, and the XM144 round didn't offer much improvement over regular AP ammo and had feed issues in most rifles. (not to mention higher costs). the only uses of small scale flechette right now are the russians.. and then only in specialized underwater firearms (the dart shape makes firing through water much easier, and gives the round better range.

Well, I don't dispute your math, but I think that we just entered the "art isn't canon" zone, because the text for that illustration of the ammo drum still claims that it only holds 100 rounds or 20,000 slugs, and the text in the rules, of course, contradicts that. The irony here of course being that Mack got the dimensions for the slug from the same artwork.

All of which of course makes the entire thing circular.
The only way that it works is if we go with the "because the book says so"
At which point it doesn't matter if it is possible or not, we have already decided that such things aren't relevant.
If we are still in the world of "is there a discussion on which number should be used" then we still have 2 issues that need to be addressed.
The first issue is the volume issue
The second issue is the weight issue.

The first issue runs into the problem of making either the flechettes tiny, or the ammo bay huge, or both.

The second issue runs smack into the fact that there is a hard cap on the weight of the ammo drum. Since the drum has to be something that the GB can pick up itself to reload, then it can not weigh (loaded) more than 750lbs. That weight has to include the case, the feed mechanism, and all the ammunition.
Which, btw means that as I pointed out before, it is impossible for anything to be using DU rounds at all, unless the weight of the new rounds does not push the system over its loaded weight vis-à-vis the weight of the old round.
To pick up a drum loaded with 1000 rounds you need a Robotic PS of 160+
Though interestingly a Robotic PS of only 16 (Far less than the GBs 30) can pick up a drum with 100 rounds.

Bottom line...
Yes the 1000 number is the official number. But the only way that number works is to simply say "its 1000 because retcon".
Because the 1000 number requires a container that is bigger on the inside than the outside and can negate the weight of its contents to actually work in game.
(Although that could explain why GBs are so hard to replicate... Chromium Technology is not just advanced MDC tech... it also requires integral time/space manipulations as well )

[Nightmartree]

(Although that could explain why GBs are so hard to replicate... Chromium Technology is not just advanced MDC tech... it also requires integral time/space manipulations as well )

Is this the secret of how palladium rewrites books!?!?!?!?! Megaversal Time-Space tech!!?!?!?!?!

also i kinda feel that the question here is "can a suit of power armor carry 1,000 bursts"...which as a GM would anyone here agree to that? At least without a heavily modified suit and numerous "this is why i can manage to do this" explanations? remembering that each railgun blast is ussually a hundred to hundreds of rounds?

cause its already been established that the books say a 1000, so at this point its "would you allow 1000"

[dreicunan]

(Although that could explain why GBs are so hard to replicate... Chromium Technology is not just advanced MDC tech... it also requires integral time/space manipulations as well )

Time Lords in Glitter Boys vs Daleks vs Splurgoth minions vs Cybermen is starting to sound pretty good right now.

[ShadowLogan]

I think I have a SOLUTION!

The Glitterboy USA-G10's fully loaded weight (and that of the Boomgun) has remained the same between RMB and RUE. Now we don't have a breakdown on the G10's weight/mass (how much is suit, how much is ammo, etc). If the breakdown hasn't changed (AFAIK), that means that scientifically speaking you can fit 1000 rounds in the same volume of space as 100 rounds IF the rounds are 1/10 the size/Volume.

Which we know they have to be for the fully loaded mass to remain the same, what with the Density Formula being what it is and the density isn't allowed to change.

[Axelmania]

The illustration with the dimensions was reprinted in RUE as far as I remember so shrunk bullets aren't an option.

I'm going to assume 'fully loaded' means '1 in the chamber' and all other bullets are extra encumbrance

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

(Although that could explain why GBs are so hard to replicate... Chromium Technology is not just advanced MDC tech... it also requires integral time/space manipulations as well )

Is this the secret of how palladium rewrites books!?!?!?!?! Megaversal Time-Space tech!!?!?!?!?!

also i kinda feel that the question here is "can a suit of power armor carry 1,000 bursts"...which as a GM would anyone here agree to that? At least without a heavily modified suit and numerous "this is why i can manage to do this" explanations? remembering that each railgun blast is ussually a hundred to hundreds of rounds?

cause its already been established that the books say a 1000, so at this point its "would you allow 1000"

For Railguns that are not the Boom Gun, rounds could be the size of a penny. Its never explicitly described, but they dont have to be big. (And likely arent.). So... would i let them carry 1000 bursts worth of ammo? Good question. Given that there are suits of power armor that have energy weapons with infinite payloads, theres not a good “well we have to keep ammo as a concern” argument, really.

So id really have to sit down and go through and see if the advantages of a railgun (typically, though not always - range + the fact that they are not an energy weapon) are enough to warrant bring limited in ammo. My gut says... “probably”.

[dreicunan]

The illustration with the dimensions was reprinted in RUE as far as I remember so shrunk bullets aren't an option.

I'm going to assume 'fully loaded' means '1 in the chamber' and all other bullets are extra encumbrance

If that illustration were canon, the ammo drum would still only hold 100 rounds. It clearly doesn't, so that would mean that the illustration cannot be taken as canon. Thus, unless the rounds are described in the text, smaller rounds would indeed be an option.

[Mack]

The illustration with the dimensions was reprinted in RUE as far as I remember so shrunk bullets aren't an option.

I'm going to assume 'fully loaded' means '1 in the chamber' and all other bullets are extra encumbrance

If that illustration were canon, the ammo drum would still only hold 100 rounds. It clearly doesn't, so that would mean that the illustration cannot be taken as canon. Thus, unless the rounds are described in the text, smaller rounds would indeed be an option.

Rather, both the illustration and text are canon. This is a game, not a science text book.

[ShadowLogan]

The illustration with the dimensions was reprinted in RUE as far as I remember so shrunk bullets aren't an option.

I'm going to assume 'fully loaded' means '1 in the chamber' and all other bullets are extra encumbrance

Yes the illustration was reprinted in RUE (pg73), actually 3 pages of illustrations in RMB have been condensed down to 1 page (and even here talking top third). We are still left with conflicting information on the USA-G10. We have text specifically stating that it holds 1000 rounds, but the illustration text calls out 100 rounds. Which is it?

As I said earlier (1st post) I think it just points to 2 unstated sized ammo cartridges (which requires separate feeds). The 100 round system works for the illustration (and old RMB), but someone worked out a smaller cartridge that would increase payload (x10) without affecting (game mechanic) performance. The only real thing that has to be changed to reach 1000 rounds is to make the rounds shorter in length.

So regardless there is going to be one bit of information that has to be ignored, its just up to the GM to decide which bit that will be or how to make all the data work together.

[Mlp7029]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Interesting if the Glitterboy can pack 200,000 slugs in its ammo drum then the cluster round is a far for superior ammo storage. Sufficiently so that the CS would be using said cluster rounds in their rail cannons which is what my GM has be using for years. He was dropping ammo by capacity by ten so 20,000 round became 2,000 canister rounds. Given these calculations which I will show him he may go to 1,000 rounds for a Glitterboy and straight up for the giant robots.

[guardiandashi]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Interesting if the Glitterboy can pack 200,000 slugs in its ammo drum then the cluster round is a far for superior ammo storage. Sufficiently so that the CS would be using said cluster rounds in their rail cannons which is what my GM has be using for years. He was dropping ammo by capacity by ten so 20,000 round became 2,000 canister rounds. Given these calculations which I will show him he may go to 1,000 rounds for a Glitterboy and straight up for the giant robots.

but it doesn't really pack 200,000 rounds, what it carries is 100 (or) 1000 shotgun shells, that each have 200 submunitions crammed into them. a "conventional" railgun is really best looked at as a magnetically boosted (or fired) smg, or machinegun. think m16, m60, saw, uzi, or similar weapon. the boomgun, and the shemarrian railguns instaid fire "shotgun" rounds, so effectively magnetically boosted 12gauge shotguns, or "canister" rounds, for cannon and they use flechette submunitions instead of the more common "shot" that those weapons typically fire.

look at a shotgun shell for a moment https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 6590986582
that shows a cutaway of a slug, vs a shot load. now different uses have different sizes of shot load, like "buckshot" may be ~5-7 pellets weighing a certain amount, and birdshot might be 100 smaller pellets in approximately the same weight/volume.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 6981648896

basically canister was a way to make cannons (typically firing 1 massive shell) more effective against "soft" targets by firing massive shotgun shells

[Shark_Force]

Fun with math...

Take the illustration of a Boom Gun round (RUE p73, or RMB p221) which gives us a size of 7 inches long by 2.41 inches wide. You can stack 1,000 items of that size in a box that's 4.08 feet long, by 2.41 feet wide, by 2.41 feet deep. I'll round that off to 4 ft x 2.5 ft x 2.5 ft.

That's not an unreasonable size for a 10 feet tall suit of power armor.

Assuming the slugs are made of lead, then 1000 rounds (each with 200 slugs) gives a weight of over 2600 pounds... or more than the weight of the entire suit. If they are made out of Titanium, then the ammo weight is about 1100 pounds, which is workable.

Interesting if the Glitterboy can pack 200,000 slugs in its ammo drum then the cluster round is a far for superior ammo storage. Sufficiently so that the CS would be using said cluster rounds in their rail cannons which is what my GM has be using for years. He was dropping ammo by capacity by ten so 20,000 round became 2,000 canister rounds. Given these calculations which I will show him he may go to 1,000 rounds for a Glitterboy and straight up for the giant robots.

but it doesn't really pack 200,000 rounds, what it carries is 100 (or) 1000 shotgun shells, that each have 200 submunitions crammed into them. a "conventional" railgun is really best looked at as a magnetically boosted (or fired) smg, or machinegun. think m16, m60, saw, uzi, or similar weapon. the boomgun, and the shemarrian railguns instaid fire "shotgun" rounds, so effectively magnetically boosted 12gauge shotguns, or "canister" rounds, for cannon and they use flechette submunitions instead of the more common "shot" that those weapons typically fire.

look at a shotgun shell for a moment https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 6590986582
that shows a cutaway of a slug, vs a shot load. now different uses have different sizes of shot load, like "buckshot" may be ~5-7 pellets weighing a certain amount, and birdshot might be 100 smaller pellets in approximately the same weight/volume.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 6981648896

basically canister was a way to make cannons (typically firing 1 massive shell) more effective against "soft" targets by firing massive shotgun shells

sure, but these things are powerful anti-armour weapons. small shotgun pellets don't cut it. each of those flechettes contained in the shell are probably reasonably large (in fact, i would bet in the past some calculations have been made based on the art, but that's neither here nor there - in order to make an anti-armour weapon, you don't need something suitable for use against soft targets, you need something suitable for use against hard targets, and that means mass is a good thing).

we're not talking about tiny pellets, we're talking about darts that are large enough to punch through tank armour. much like the rounds used in other railguns in the setting. so really, the comparison to 20,000 regular railgun rounds is not unreasonable, because each submunition in a boom gun round has the same expected purpose of a regular railgun round.

[ShadowLogan]

@Shark_Force
Actually we know several things about the Boomgun's sub-munition and case from the artwork in RMB (and RUE):
-50 sub-munition have the same basic frontal aspect as the casing, and comprise of x1 layer
-x4 layers of sub-munitions are contained within the casing
-the casing is 7inches long (diameter is not listed, but if we treat them as scale drawings...)
-the sub-munition itself is 1inch long (diameter is not listed, but again if we treat them as scale drawings...) rod (no fins, blunt nose/tail)

The things we don't know, could speculate/assume:
-are the materials (the sub-munition could be non-ferrous, but the casing has to be ferrous) involved. If we knew this we could estimate the mass of the assembly (and total payload) because we would know how dense the time is.
-how much mass it takes up of the USA-G10's 1.2tons when fully loaded