Weird HtH techniques zombies can do but which seem kinda odd

[Tor]

beginning rather large ramble/rant, anyone interested please respond to whatever points interest you

Since the assumption one would make is that if a zombie gets a bonus to a maneuver, they can DO that maneuver, looking closely at their stats makes me picture zombies doing this stuff, which seems kind of out of place for them...

1) p43: entangling Crawlers (and Screamers too)

This initially does not seem all that odd... I mean zombies grab at us, right? But grabbing as an attack is actually a different thing than entangling. On page 57 ('vital zombie combat note' preceding Tip #1) when it talks about grabbing, the rules for this are on page 58 (under Tip #7) the grab is apparently an unmodified d20 (though I'd personally add any strike bonuses the zombies had, seems appropriate IMO), the zombie is the attacker and the human is the defender, and benefits from dodge bonuses. Presumably a max of 4 zombies can try to grab you per melee round turn, otherwise running through a crowd of 20 would pretty much guarantee you get nat20 grabbed. Presumably you get sort of a group-dodge (like Ninjas and Superspies) when doing this dodge-bonus-against-huddle-grab maneuver, otherwise someone would run out of attacks and it'd be pretty impossible to get through a large crowd before even borrowing from the next round would make you run out... or maybe that's the idea? Incentive to only attempt small crowds or do it in groups to split the zombie grab attacks up?

Entangling is not an offensive maneuver, rather it is a defensive one, per page 186, so the zombie would be opposing the strike bonuses of an opponent's melee weapon, and would win ties (unlike grabbing attacks).

Considering that parries cost an attack for zombies (barring perhaps some Mock Zombie who may have known paired WP or a HtH in their past life) if a defense is going to cost an action anyway, an entangle is probably a better choice.

I'm not sure what you do after the point an entangle succeeds... presumably the attacker who gets entangled can no longer use that weapon or limb... as for the defending entangler (in this case the Crawler zombie, or possibly other zombies depending on whether or not the GM rules they can attempt this too) I don't know how many limbs need to be used for an entangle.

Perhaps 1 hand or even 1 mouth is enough? Or even without those, doing something like squeezing an opponent's wrist between your thighs or under your armpit or between chin and sternum might also work... I'm sure zombies may feel more comfortable getting creative about how they do this compared to normal human techniques.

I remember in other games that Entangle used to be kind of advanced, I remember HtH expert did not get it until higher levels... but I think in Dead Reign everyone starts off with the option at level 1 now, so it's not all too unusual. Still... I'm not sure if someone with No HtH would be able to do this move, so Crawlers being able to do it is pretty cool, I'm not sure if other zombies would be able to or not.

Fast Attack zombies also get a (lower) entangle bonus so they can presumably do this too. I'm not sure when they would though, maybe if they knock down an opponent and the opponent tries to hit them, this is another way besides the Pin maneuver to 'hold him in place' as it says.

It's odd to think of zombies being defensive, but although not as extensive as a Hold (not sure anyone except a combat-trained Mocker could do the Holds) an Entangle does help immobilize someone (similar to a grab) in that it prevents them from fleeing, and allows other zombies to advance on their position. Also similar to a grab, if an Entangle (defensive as it might be) could be done while keeping a limb (or a head, or a tooth) free then presumably a zombie could attack you while you were Entangled and be at some kind of advantage in doing so.

If it is possible to dodge or roll with attacks aimed at you when someone has you entangled then I think GMs ought to apply some kind of penalty to it. It should be a lot harder to bob or jump out of the way or tuck into a ball or twist when something is latched on to your arm.

Some kind of distinction also ought to be made between entangling a weapon and entangling a limb. If a weapon gets entangled then you should be able to auto-escape by letting go of it. It should also probably be a bit easier than grabbing the limbs since the weapon would be closer (since it's being used to attack) than the limb wielding it.

There should also be some weapons which are harder to entangle safely and easier to get free. If you are attacking with a bo-staff, stopping that without being harmed should be easier than say, stopping a sword. There's going to be at least a 50% chance when entangling the actual sword-blade that you'll get cut on the edge. I guess in theory you could only touch the flat sides (classical hand-clap maneuver, or maybe catching it between upper-arm and torso) but it should be a lot harder and incur some kind of penalty, creating incentive to just bypass the blade and grab the hand or wrist or arm of the sword-wielder instead.

2) p44: leap-kicking Screamers

Although all zombies (legless Crawlers excepted) can do the basic kick attack, it's pretty cool the Fast Attack zombie can do a leap kick. Although I'm not sure how GMs are supposed to decide when this will be done. It mentions their first instinct is to pounce and pin... and one could extend that to include the push/trip attack... so when would these guys be doing things like jump kicks? I can picture kicking someone while they're down but to jump first would seem like it would involve releasing the pin...

All I can figure is maybe this is something they will do to opponents who are already down? Like if there are 2 Screamers, one pins, and the other thinks (okay, they are immobilized) and decides to do a jumping drop-kick on the opponent instead.

3) p45: dodging Screamers (and Thinkers)

They get a dodge bonus too.. which just seems odd. When would a GM opt to have them try to dodge something? They dodge slightly better than they entangle, so it could be a more reliable defense... but I expect that they still might opt to do a simultaneous attack or an entangle where possible.

Situations where it isn't possible (thrown weapons, guns, arrows, being run over by a car, etc) would seem like a case where these guys might actually put their dodge bonus to use though.

I expect the more contemplative Thinkers probably have a better sense of self-preservation than Screamers and since they can use guns, we might more often see them shooting and dodging for cover to avoid return-fire.

Page 173 mentions that automatic dodging MAY be the ability of a zombie. So in the very least we might see a rare Mocker (ex-Commando) who can do this... but I would impart this ability to Fast Attack zombies too, they seem to deserve it. Treating the automatic dodge as a reflex they do due to their twitchiness (especially since it would not compromise their offense by not wasting an attack) does not compromise their image as much to me.

4) p42 body-flipping Crawlers (and Screamers)

This step is a bit reaching... I have not seen zombies explicitly given the ability to do a body flip/throw anywhere but...

It is interesting to note that on the damage amounts given to each zombie, some are explicitly forbidden from doing a body flip, and others have no such forbidding. Slouchers (40) and Flesh-Eaters (46) and Thinkers (49) and Mockers (53) and Patterns (55) all have 'body flip' listed after 'other kicks' and before 'martial arts attacks' in the 'Note' at the bottom of their damage section. This is conspicuously absent in the Crawler's note and there is no note at all for the Fast-Attackers.

This makes me want to let them do this attack. Having a Crawler drop off a pipe and do some kinda Rey-Mysterio technique to throw a guy off his feet would be pretty cool. In their case though I would only let them do it that first time, since letting them body-flip people when they are biting their ankles seems a little odd. Letting Fast Attackers do it whenever they want seems to make sense to me, since it is pretty similar to their tackle/push attacks.

5) p46 disarming Flesh-Eaters (and Thinkers, and aggressive zombies in general)

Since both flesh-eaters and thinkers get a bonus to disarm inherently, this is something we ought to expect them to do now and then. Also, the 'Smell Fear' property all zombies have can give a disarm bonus, so disarm is theoretically something any zombie could do.

Since a defensive disarm does not benefit from bonuses (appears to require a natural high-roll), this might be done as an attack. It seems odd to think zombies would have a sense of self-preservation to want to take away opponent's weapons, at least for basic kinds like Slouchers, but there is another way to look at it. Using weapons can give humans parry bonuses, so taking a human's weapon lowers their defenses, making them easier to grab and bite.

Another thing is that a human without a weapon (or other object, even if a non-weapon thing like a candlestick) has no bonuses to parry a zombie who is using a weapon (page 173) so it would be in the interest of a zombie using a weapon (or even if there are other zombies around who have weapons) to disarm a human for that reason as well, even if they are not carrying a weapon (or are carrying one which they have no WP in).

Plus there is the issue that a weapon a human drops MIGHT be picked up by a zombie, even if normally in the midst of a melee a zombie probably would not do that if a human was immediately in their grasp.

6) p49 multi-faceted THINKERS

Aside from the aforementioned dodging and disarming ability these guys evidence... they are full of all kinds of strangeness.

6.1) parrying Thinkers

So why would a zombie spend an action parrying something? Actually, since Thinkers have the save bonus to parry and to dodge, how would a GM figure out which defense the Thinker would use? Is there ever a case where it is preferable to parry instead of dodge when both will cost you an action and both are equally likely to succeed? About the only reason I can think for a Thinker to parry is basically for RP, because it is scarier to have a zombie swat aside your weapon than to jump out of its way (or is it...)

It seems mostly up to the GM to interpret contra-dodge situations. Like if a Thinker is sitting buckled-up in your passenger seat and you are in the driver seat and try to punch it, it shouldn't be able to dodge (or if it can, it should be heavily penalized) but it should probably be able to try and parry you.

Or you have situations like a Thinker has their feet nail-gunned to the floor, or feet stuck in cement, etc. where dodging would not be possible so resorting to a parry would not make sense.

Also, although the rules for limb loss on 37 do not reflect this (they only penalize speed) I believe losing 1 leg should incur a dodge penalty and losing both legs should heavily penalize (if not utterly prevent) dodging. I'm sure I saw something along these lines in a different RPG by Palladium, not sure which one.

Similarly, losing an arm should incur a parry penalty and losing both should heavily penalize (if not prevent) parrying by a thinker. I have trouble picturing them doing kick-parries like Wormwood monks in such a situation.

6.2) Thinkers pulling punches

So an alternatively strange thing these guys do is Pull Punch ... apparently they do it even better than a Mock zombie can. That's just perplexing... about the only situation where I could ever see a Thinker doing this is if they were being commanded by a Death Cultist to hurt but not kill someone being taken prisoner.

It occurs to me that this may not even be necessary though, and that they may pull punches independently of human control. In reading their description I found evidence to support this possibility.

Reading amidst the details of their other tactics on page 48, a thinker "might notice a a person humans might want" and "use it as a lure for an ambush".

If we think about what this might mean... perhaps a Thinker, rather than just blindly trying to kill whatever is around it, might opt to actually CAPTURE a target and torture it (inflict low damage via pull punches) over an extended period of time to attract rescue so that it can then try to kill the rescuers.

For a Thinker to 'notice' a person' and 'use it as a lure' rather than simply try to kill that person seems to imply that a Thinker is capable of avoiding killing a person for the interest of killing a greater number of persons. It may be advanced enough to pass the Marshmallow test!

6.3) rolly-polly Thinkers

since they get a bonus to roll with impact, this is also something we might see them using. I'm not sure if any other zombie would. I would expect it from Mockers (high sense of self preservation) and since rolling is related to dodging (avoiding damage) I might expect it from Fast-Attack zombies too. In fact I think I'd give a fast-attack zombie at least half the RWI bonus that Thinkers get, it seems like they should be better at it than a mere Sloucher.

Rolling with impact seems like something too advanced for Slouchers to attempt (and out of character, since spending an action to roll impedes your offense) although I'm tempted to give Crawlers as a house-rule an automatic roll since lacking limbs seems like it makes it easier or more natural to curl into a ball when swatted around...

Against weak attacks (ie small low-PS unarmed human punching it in the face) I'm not sure even a defense-minded Thinker would try to defend via a parry/dodge/roll since it impedes their offense and they have better things to do with their actions... but in situations where they cannot immediately attack you (like say, you are up on a balcony whipping rocks down at a Thinker on the ground) then I guess the Thinker may as well dodge / roll-if-fail to avoid the rock damage...or should they?

6.4) power-punching Thinkers (and Mockers)

These guys can wind up and deliver haymakers, something that Slouchers/Screamers/Flesh-Eaters cannot do, which is pretty cool. You can have them launch these as a simultaneous attack against PCs who come at them in melee or use it for delivering surprise attacks from behind for extra lethality.

7) possum tactics, playing dumb

Although I do wonder if a Thinker might actually opt not to defend and simply let such attacks hit them for the purpose of camouflage. Are the Thinkers smart enough to realize the benefits of acting like a Sloucher so as to be underestimated? A small thrown rock would not do a huge amount of damage and is prone to bouncing off AR anyway, so it could be beneficial to play possum and take some minor SDC to your main body (will get healed within an hour or after your next kill anyway) if it means not standing out from the crowd.

A zombie who starts dodging rocks is going to stand out as special, and probably earn a head-shot first. I think a Mock zombie (assuming they looked zombieish and could stand to act like a zombie, something they seem to hate) could be smart enough to avoid dodging... as to whether or not Thinkers would, I dunno.

Obviously if an attack is huge (ie dropping a piano on a Thinker) then they will probably weigh the odds and opt to dodge... right? Even then, I'm not totally sure. Barring a head-crush (and I'm not sure you CAN call a shot on a head with giant boulders or pianos) even if massive-impact-damage depletes the main body and HP of the zombie, it will not permanently kill them so they can rise after an hour.

It may be advantageous for a Thinker to be thought a clumsy Sloucher immobilized under a piano. Then, later when people come to finish them off, perhaps the Thinker has a pistol squirreled away in its pocket and shoots you with it!

I think Fast Attack zombies are too stupid and would always dodge thrown rocks though. It's not like they ever pretend to be Slouchers anyway, being speedy-screamers.

It's neat to think how a standard zombie (sloucher), if you push them off a roof, they'd probably just go limp (or stiff?) and take full damage, but a Thinker is going to be all tumbler about it and the fanciness could be a tip-off to their intellect.

Although I'm not entirely sure how much damage falls do to zombies (am similarly unsure about damage zombies take from body flips / throws)... would it be 1/5 like punches (page 34) or 1/2 damage like explosions (page 111) or maybe some middle ground like 1/3 or 1/4.... The phrase 'all other types of physical attacks' is pretty inclusive, it would clearly cover something like a tackle, but in the case of a fall or a throw, it isn't the human hurting the zombie but rather, them hitting the ground...

I would actually custom-rule that as terrain-based. If a zombie is thrown onto (or falls onto) soft ground like recently turned gardening soil, a not-very-deep mud-puddle, a shallow snow-drift take 1/5. If they fall onto concrete or metal, take 1/2. Possibly some other fraction for intermediary hardness locations. I think really deep water or snow drifts probably should not cause any damage at all if they are body-flipped into it or fall into it. Unless it was a fall from a super-high height. Maybe something like 1/10 in that case.

Rolling with a fall normally takes a roll of 14 and that is the AR of zombies so... I'm not sure what that means. Do falls automatically bypass? Does the AR automatically make them immune? What about Flesh-Eaters who have an AR lower than the number needed to roll-with-fall?