Escape Entangle

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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Tirisilex
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Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

I'm not clear about the entangle rules. How much entanglement occurs? An Arm? Whole body? And once entangled does the victim get a roll to escape each meleee? or does only someone with "escape artist" skill can escape?
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

Since it's a defensive move, you basically entangle whatever limb was being used to attack, so you could still use your other limbs. It says nowhere about requiring the escape artist skill. Far as I know, anyone can opt, once per melee round, to spend an action to roll a dodge to try to escape it. I assume people with auto-dodge can forgo spending the action. Even though auto-dodge bonuses tend to be less than full dodge bonuses (if you're playing in a system that has them separate) they still tend to be higher than entangle bonuses, which are pretty sparse, so escaping an entangle isn't very hard.

Since you can presumably entangle weapon attacks, how that works is a bit less clear to me. For example: if I entangle a guy's sword, he could probably opt, rather than waiting a whole melee round to try and disengage his sword from my net, simply drop the sword and start punching me.

On the other hand, if I were entangling a sword attack without a net and just using my hands, that'd probably be done by grabbing my opponent's arms rather than his blade, in which case, he should still be entangled even if he drops his sword.

But if I entangle a guy using a 2-handed sword, am I grabbing 1 arm or 2 arms? If I'm only grabbing one, some swords can be wielded proficiently 1 or 2 handed (I think that's what hand+half swords were for?) so if it were only one they might simply let go with that hand and swing their sword with the un-entangled arm.

Although... *checks rules* there's some additional unclear spots in the mechanics. It says someone keeping an entangle on can't attack... so they presumably could still defend. You might think the ability to dodge or parry would be somewhat compromised, even if you were putting on an entangle with merely 1 arm, since it limits your mobility since you'd have to move your opponent around with you to maneuver to any major degree.

Unlike holds/locks in N&SS which specify how many limbs you use, I don't really know with entangles. I can see it feasible doing it 1-handed but if so, there should either be a penalty for it, or some kind of bonuses if you opt to keep an entangle on using 2 arms (or heck, even legs or tails could be used to entangle, that should add further bonuses). If you can still defend while entangling, you might plausibly use your free arm to entangle your opponent's OTHER arm, or possibly the arm of a 2nd opponent. But a difficulty difference SHOULD exist and I can't find rule mechanics to represent it, if I'm holding a guy's right arm with both arms instead of 2. Two arms should actually be MORE than twice as difficult to escape from.

Zaraki Kenpachi would agree.
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Tirisilex
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

Ok I've been reading the "Dead Reign" book. Page 186. Talks about entangle and holding. Holding is more what I'm looking at. My question is.. a zombie gets 3 attacks and a player can get up to 4 attacks. Ok so zombie rolls d20 and adds the PP stat. player defends by rolling d20 and adding their PP. Do they roll once per melee? Or do they use all attacks? I'm guessing just once per melee. Also it says someone can't attack when holding. I disagree.. A zombie could still make a reach to bite you.
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Re: Escape Entangle

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If a character has wrestling or a sweep kick.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

How does wrestling effect a Hold? The rules don't say anything.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by say652 »

if a character automatically knows all holds, its a given they know how to escape. vs something that doesn't fatigue though make sure a strength check IS made first then allow them to roll vs pin/incapacitate(adding bonus to strike) to escape. the trip works by knocking the opponent down costing them an action and by default the entangle.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

I'm thinking of adding some kind of bonus to holding when Wrestling is involved. Need to think about it some more.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

Anybody can roll to escape a hold, unless it's an elbow joint lock, that's the only thing you can't escape.

Wrestling's "pin" move counts as a body hold per N&SS.

Pretty sure you use PP to escape holds though, not PS. PS is used to escape chokes though.
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Re: Escape Entangle

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I'm thinking those with Wrestling get a +3 to the PP check when rolling for a hold.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

I'm thinking you get a bonus of +1 per every 10% in escape artist when rolling a PP Hold as well.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

Escape artists represents the ability to escape material bonds, not living beings. I admit, contortionists like the HU's stage magician seem like guys who should be slippery enough to be good at this... but this is partially reflected in a PP bonus.

Wrestling simply gives you the ability to do a hold if your HtH normally would not have given it to you at this point.
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Re: Escape Entangle

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To escape a Kimora (standing elbow lock) strength vs strength. Winner takes control of the lock. Or a throw or just hit with the other hand. Irl. Jussayin.
A sweep ends with you in side control. Also a dominant position. Irl. Jussayin
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Re: Escape Entangle

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If you're being put in a kimura, aren't you putting your (usually ridiculously weak by comparison) external shoulder rotators of a single arm up against the combined power of 2 arms using much stronger muscles like the pectoralis major? I can't see anyone powering out of that unless they were really strong.

Maybe if you got at the right angle to use different muscles but that still seems like agility.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by say652 »

Grab the back of your hand and pull hard. It will relieve the pressure and go for a trip or hip toss. Having weak arms if you can get your back n shoulders into it then you can escape. Off the mat a thumb to the eye is way more effective. Again irl.
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Re: Escape Entangle

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A thumb in the eye of a zombie would be uneffective.
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Re: Escape Entangle

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I'm just looking for reasonable ideas on how to handle holds and entangles..what kinds of bonuses would you use.. skills used.. and attributes rolled.. how do you handle holdsand entangle?
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

Oh, well bringing other limbs into the entangle escape's a whole other issue... presumably someone in a joint lock should get bonuses if using the other limb, or penalties if no other limb is available.

Even if you had 2 arms, if someone kimura'd your left while you were holding a sword in your right and you didn't want to drop the sword, that would also suck.

Holds are escaped by PP contest, entangles are escaped via dodge, per rules.
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Tirisilex
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

What exactly is the difference between a hold and entangle?
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by say652 »

A zombie is not gonna be doing jujitsu. Its grab and hold on. Sorry about highjacking most uncool of me.
A hold is two hands locked together. An entangle is any move where the hands aren't locked together.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tirisilex »

I don't understand entangle.. hands not locked together?
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by say652 »

Using one hand to grab a guys wrist or forearm. Rushing in using a shoulder to keep a weapon from striking. Um wrapping someones legs with a whip to trip them. Struggling over a handgun.

All examples of entangle.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

Tirisilex wrote:What exactly is the difference between a hold and entangle?

Entangles have only been described as a defensive move, whereas I get the impression a hold can be applied offensively too.

Some martial arts (like Aikido) allow automatic hold defenses, I'm unaware of any automatic entangling.

They use different bonuses.

Holds (and Locks) can be combined with a joint-locking Atemi which allow you to inflict damage from them per each melee round.

Entangles are a generic ability, while holds have several different types that immobilize different body parts, although they all seem to be escapable in the same way (PP contest).

You can get better at Entangling using a man-hunter type skill from that jungle book in PF, and some WP add to it (I think whip or net?) it's harder to get ahold of hold bonuses.
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Grell »

As I understand the rules as written, entangle immobilizes the targeted limb while hold immobilizes the targeted character. Again, as understood from the written rules and not accounting for any real life experience. :)
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Re: Escape Entangle

Unread post by Tor »

It immobilizes the limb, but I don't believe you're entirely immobilized, you can still attack with other limbs, I figure. Or run away... supposing you lift the zombie and carry them along with you until they let go.
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