A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
whassupman03
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 pm

A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

For those who use the concept of armored warfare in their Dead Reign campaigns, I would like to provide a useful resource I was able to find on the Internet. Known as the AFV Register, it is a list of every museum piece, exhibit, or collection composed of armored vehicles (Everything from American Legion and VFW clubhouses to federal museums on military grounds containing loads of varied vehicles). The main page is located at http://www.afvregister.org/Home.aspx, and even includes a search engine for the vehicles as well. In addition, there are a number of national register lists available in PDF form for North American countries (Namely the USA and Canada) and certain European countries.[sup]1, 2, 3, 4, 5[/sup] But anyway I thought that this would be useful. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good week.

whassupman03 8)


[1]: Source: http://216.176.92.62/afv/USA_AFVs.pdf
[2]: Source: http://216.176.92.62/afv/Canada_AFVs.pdf
[3]: Source: http://www.afvregister.org/Downloads/The%20Belgian%20Historical%20Afv%20register.pdf
[4]: Source: http://the.shadock.free.fr/France_AFVs.pdf
[5]: Source: http://the.shadock.free.fr/Poland_AFVs.pdf
I don't normally kill zombies, but when I do, I use the...

BOOMSTICK!

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

Nice find!

I think it bears pointing out that modern military armored fighting vehicles actually have MDC armor. Too many players (and GM's) ignore the fact that you can shoot them all day long with a pistol or rifle and the rounds will just bounce off. Now if you use something like a .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun those round will penetrate. So yeah toss that AR for armored vehicles out the freakin' door.

When it comes to modern battle tanks there have been reports of M1A1's taking multiple hits from enemy and even in friendly fire incidents and they keep on rocking. The most vulnerable point tho is the top of the turret and the treads.

Armored cars (both those that transport cash, and SUV's Limo's etc) can only last about 15 seconds when lit up by rifles (7.62mm, 5.56mm etc). A .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun will turn the vehicle into swiss cheese.

So my last little bit of advice (and this may tick off some GM's).....the USMC's LAV-25 and U.S. Army's Styker's operate much like a car. So yes you can operate them with the Pilot Auto skill. Both vehicles are part of the same vehicle family too, and can be legally driven on U.S. roadways.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
whassupman03
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

jedi078 wrote:Nice find!

I think it bears pointing out that modern military armored fighting vehicles actually have MDC armor. Too many players (and GM's) ignore the fact that you can shoot them all day long with a pistol or rifle and the rounds will just bounce off. Now if you use something like a .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun those round will penetrate. So yeah toss that AR for armored vehicles out the freakin' door.

When it comes to modern battle tanks there have been reports of M1A1's taking multiple hits from enemy and even in friendly fire incidents and they keep on rocking. The most vulnerable point tho is the top of the turret and the treads.

Armored cars (both those that transport cash, and SUV's Limo's etc) can only last about 15 seconds when lit up by rifles (7.62mm, 5.56mm etc). A .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun will turn the vehicle into swiss cheese.

So my last little bit of advice (and this may tick off some GM's).....the USMC's LAV-25 and U.S. Army's Styker's operate much like a car. So yes you can operate them with the Pilot Auto skill. Both vehicles are part of the same vehicle family too, and can be legally driven on U.S. roadways.

Thanks! :-D I really appreciate the enthusiasm about the resource I was able to provide to you. Personally, it all started when someone posted the PDF about the vehicles in the USA on another forum that I attend, and when I did see it, I researched the website where it came from. Once I had done my research, I found everything else involving the AFV Register, and I'm pretty glad I did. Speaking of that first article, have you ever read page 22 of the USA AFVs article? You see there's a listing for the General George S. Patton Memorial Museum at Chiriaco Summit, CA. When I read that, I came up with what I think is a clever adventure seed for everyone here...

Adventure Seed: The 16 Pattons

This adventure seed is especially valid for the Soldier and Scavenger O.C.C.s. Your parent unit at Alaskan Command, the surviving remnants of the US armed forces in Alaska, has acquired a lead on a stockpile of recoverable tanks available for extraction. Here at the George Patton Memorial Museum at Chiriaco Summit, CA are 16 ex-USMC M60A1 Patton Tanks stored outside on its property. Formerly belonging to the Marines, these Cold War-era tanks are said to be in movable condition, though they will need to be partially rebuilt with military-grade parts to be combat-ready, which along with fuel and ammunition are available in Alaska. In addition, less than 1,000 feet away from the museum is Chiriaco Summit Airport, an airfield that dates back to WWII and possesses a 4,600-foot runway.

Northwest at Alaskan Command, their plan is to deploy their surviving C-17 Globemaster III transports (Composed of a mix of some based in Alaska pre-Wave and others recovered during past missions from Air Force Bases in Washington and, mentioned in a few seconds, California) to land at Travis AFB, a surviving base far north of the museum with field maintenance teams and heavy equipment to travel to the museum, load up the tanks, and transport them back to the C-17s at Travis for airlift back to Alaska (Along with any spare parts, survivors, or other salvage they could find). But there is a significant danger that must be taken care of - around 30 miles away from the museum are the ruins of the Palm Springs Metropolitan Area, a collection of cities that was home to several hundred thousand people before the Wave. Since both the airport and the museum were just off of Interstate 10, they have often been visited by zombies. Unfortunately, Travis AFB has also been besieged by zombies and even violent human bands from time to time, which came from various cities in Solano County, CA and its surroundings. Luckily though, surviving troops at Travis AFB will provide a significant escort to the maintenance teams all the way to Chiriaco Summit and back. Due to the fact that C-17s won't be able to take off from Chiriaco Summit Airport because of the load and the length of the runway, your unit's mission is to land via C-130 at Chiriaco Summit Airport, secure the airfield and museum, and prepare the site for their arrival. Good luck and Godspeed.

Anyway, what do you think? Feel free to add constructive criticism. But in the meantime, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:
I don't normally kill zombies, but when I do, I use the...

BOOMSTICK!

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

There is several large problems with armored vehicles.

1) The are maintenance intensive.
Like one hour of maintenance for X hours operating, more so if it is tracked. This varies considerably be vehicle type and individual system requiring maintenance. Aircraft are even worse some requiring ten hours for each hour of flight.

2) Parts are in military supply lines only.
Can't go to a corner auto parts or even a local heavy diesel repair and find spares for anything.

3) Consume massive quantities of fuel.
The M1114 uparmored Humvee is about 5 mpg. The M1 Abrams consume 8 gallons for one mile moved. It will consume those 8 gallons in an hour not even moving.

4) Maintainers are only in the military.
Sure, you could have a veteran who was a heavy diesel mechanic, or an Ordnance guy, or a M1 Abrams turret mechanic. As a percentage of the population those are going to be low, and they don't for the most part have civilian equivalents.

5) Armor is used where it is needed most.
There really isn't that many tanks in any Division not designated an Armor Division. So you would expect to find armored vehicles where ever fighting was heaviest or the defense most crucial.

6) Ammunition.
The federal govt does not disperse ammunition to the States. When the National Guard goes to train with live ammunition this is dispensed from federal control. Some National Guard training centers are going to have small arms ammunition (up to 50 BMG) for annual qualifications but not stuff like tank main gun ammunition, 25mm chain gun, AT rockets, or artillery shells.

7) Transport.
Tanks don't typically go far. They are moved to near where they start by heavy diesel trucks and flatbed lowboys appropriately called Tank Haulers or Tank Transporters. This is because of the wear and maintenance issues again with the tracks and tank suspensions.

8) Tanks are loud.
The main gun certainly makes its presences known when fired. The engine is LOUD, couple this with the screeching and clanging of the track links passing over rollers and meshing with the teeth of the sprockets! Well it sounds like a metal reclamation yard rolling down a hill in an avalanche. Watch some youtube videos where you can hear the engines to see what I mean.

9) Tanks are nearly useless against zombies.
Tanks are meant to engage other tanks and hard structures like concrete bunkers. Against something soft the tank would employ the MGs like the coaxial. Thus your tank would need to be exclusively armed with Anti personnel ammunition, composed of ball bearings, this acts like a shotgun shell. Wickedly effective against infantry however, since Zombies require brain trauma to be eliminated, this still isn't an effective shell. Thus you have to run them over and hope you don't get your tank stuck, which is relatively easy too.
User avatar
whassupman03
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

ArmySGT. wrote:There is several large problems with armored vehicles.

1) The are maintenance intensive.
Like one hour of maintenance for X hours operating, more so if it is tracked. This varies considerably be vehicle type and individual system requiring maintenance. Aircraft are even worse some requiring ten hours for each hour of flight.

2) Parts are in military supply lines only.
Can't go to a corner auto parts or even a local heavy diesel repair and find spares for anything.

3) Consume massive quantities of fuel.
The M1114 uparmored Humvee is about 5 mpg. The M1 Abrams consume 8 gallons for one mile moved. It will consume those 8 gallons in an hour not even moving.

4) Maintainers are only in the military.
Sure, you could have a veteran who was a heavy diesel mechanic, or an Ordnance guy, or a M1 Abrams turret mechanic. As a percentage of the population those are going to be low, and they don't for the most part have civilian equivalents.

5) Armor is used where it is needed most.
There really isn't that many tanks in any Division not designated an Armor Division. So you would expect to find armored vehicles where ever fighting was heaviest or the defense most crucial.

6) Ammunition.
The federal govt does not disperse ammunition to the States. When the National Guard goes to train with live ammunition this is dispensed from federal control. Some National Guard training centers are going to have small arms ammunition (up to 50 BMG) for annual qualifications but not stuff like tank main gun ammunition, 25mm chain gun, AT rockets, or artillery shells.

7) Transport.
Tanks don't typically go far. They are moved to near where they start by heavy diesel trucks and flatbed lowboys appropriately called Tank Haulers or Tank Transporters. This is because of the wear and maintenance issues again with the tracks and tank suspensions.

8) Tanks are loud.
The main gun certainly makes its presences known when fired. The engine is LOUD, couple this with the screeching and clanging of the track links passing over rollers and meshing with the teeth of the sprockets! Well it sounds like a metal reclamation yard rolling down a hill in an avalanche. Watch some youtube videos where you can hear the engines to see what I mean.

9) Tanks are nearly useless against zombies.
Tanks are meant to engage other tanks and hard structures like concrete bunkers. Against something soft the tank would employ the MGs like the coaxial. Thus your tank would need to be exclusively armed with Anti personnel ammunition, composed of ball bearings, this acts like a shotgun shell. Wickedly effective against infantry however, since Zombies require brain trauma to be eliminated, this still isn't an effective shell. Thus you have to run them over and hope you don't get your tank stuck, which is relatively easy too.

Yeah, these are issues to be countered, but this is where specialization would apply. Most likely, armored vehicles would be used against targets that are predominately human, such as bandits and raiders with captured military hardware or Terror Cults that have found themselves a tank or two. Perhaps even the Death Cult of Brulyx would be such an opponent en masse if (And unfortunately when...[sup]1, 2[/sup]) they bring an amphibious invasion of North America as they surely will have across the Pacific Ocean, especially if they amass a massive arsenal of captured military hardware (Likely of Russian, Chinese, North Korean, or other such design), including tanks, planes, and ships. Defending North America from such an incursion would take a lot of firepower and a lot of cooperation between the pockets of resistance where humanity survives around here.

Because this is so, these museum pieces may become a valuable resource if even for a massive supply of spare parts to keep a smaller fleet running, especially since there are at least a thousand M60 Patton tanks of various variants and conditions displayed across the United States. These tanks are still usable in today's battlefield (Especially with other nations) - they use a near-exact copy of the cannon used in some of our Strykers, only that it does not have an autoloader, and it is also likely that they can use the same ammunition. Not to mention that with a diesel engine it is more fuel efficient and less of a garage queen than the quasi-jet engine in the M1 Abrams.[sup]3[/sup] If I were a betting man, I would bet that clever engineers and mechanics would be able to re-engineer the Patton tanks to burn biodiesel.[sup]4[/sup] Still, those are my two cents for tonight, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03 :D

[1]: Source: The Rifter #40, page 52
[2]: Source: The Rifter #45, pages 21, 24
[3]: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_Patton#M60A3_series
[4]: Source: Dead Reign Sourcebook 3: Endless Dead, pages 34-35
I don't normally kill zombies, but when I do, I use the...

BOOMSTICK!

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

You don't need to re-engineer any diesel engine to burn biodiesel. You just have to have sufficient quantities of vegetable oil to catalyze with lye. You would have to give up food for fuel, though.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

whassupman03 wrote: Because this is so, these museum pieces may become a valuable resource if even for a massive supply of spare parts to keep a smaller fleet running, especially since there are at least a thousand M60 Patton tanks of various variants and conditions displayed across the United States.
To what purpose? Even if bandits or a Death Cult has one...... So. They are as unlikely to have ammunition as the PCs. Within a week to a month it is going to be inoperable with a thrown track or mechanical failure without trained maintainers.

There are several ways to kill a tank, that don't require another tank. Amateurs operating one makes that even easier.

A commercial bulldozer with the tempered glass cabin would be just as effective against a horde of zombies.

whassupman03 wrote: These tanks are still usable in today's battlefield (Especially with other nations) - they use a near-exact copy of the cannon used in some of our Strykers, only that it does not have an autoloader, and it is also likely that they can use the same ammunition.
It is the British L7 gun first fielded on the Chieftain. The British smashed all competition at the NATO gunnery exercises in the 70s everyone wanted this gun. It is still capable against many threats and the ammunition is evolving. However, the ammunition to kill tanks is useless against a zombie horde and vice versa. The NATO standard 105mm main gun round. The M1A1 and M1A2 use the 120mm round. This means your only going to find 105mm on bases where the Stryker is fielded. Notice this list doesn't include the National Guard.

Yes, your M60A3 can fire the 105mm ammunition.... The gunners sights won't be calibrated for this newer higher velocity ammunition. It is all going to shoot high and off the mark.

Active army is going to have that tank gun ammo in hardened shelters in the Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) located on post near the gunnery ranges. This is run by a dedicated team of ammunition specialists. Members of a unit never go into the double cyclone fenced area of the ammo bunkers. The ammunition specialists bring it out of the bunkers to an ammunition holding area (AHA) for delivery to a unit authorized to receive it. Bunkers are not marked with their contents, and extremely valuable munitions, or munition that can be be used immediately upon uncrating (disposable AT rockets like the M72 LAW) are further protected by alarms, strobe lights, sirens, and a CS/CN gas bomb.

Active Brigade Combat Teams Posture:

• Fort Benning, Ga. -- 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Bliss, Texas -- 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Bragg, N.C. -- 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Campbell, Ky. – 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Carson, Colo. – 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Drum, N.Y. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Hood, Texas – 5 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Knox, Ky. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

Fort Lewis, Wash. – 3 Stryker Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Polk, La. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Richardson, Ak. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Riley, Kan. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Stewart, Ga. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

Fort Wainwright, Ak. – 1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Schofield Barracks, Hawaii – 1 Brigade Combat Team

1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Irwin (National Training Center), Calif. – 1 Brigade Combat Team (minus)

• Korea – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Germany – 1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Italy – 1 Brigade Combat Team

whassupman03 wrote: Not to mention that with a diesel engine it is more fuel efficient and less of a garage queen than the quasi-jet engine in the M1 Abrams.[sup]3[/sup] If I were a betting man, I would bet that clever engineers and mechanics would be able to re-engineer the Patton tanks to burn biodiesel.[sup]4[/sup] Still, those are my two cents for tonight, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.
Biodiesel is just vegetable oil which has had the solids and other denser stuff precipitated out by agitation and the introduction of a catalyst (lye). You can make it.
It is going to take acres, and acres, and acres of high oil yield crops to make some, such as sunflowers or canola. Acres that aren't growing food; if you can keep the pests out and the zombies out.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -specs.htm

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m60.html

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60.htm

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/M60.html

These are 60 tons each and a C-17 or C-5 is only going to be able to carry two of them. Further the tanks would have to be able to run and move on their own to be loaded aboard. This would be a HUGE waste of manpower, and jet fuel. The military transports tanks by rail or ship. Moving a tank by air is a last ditch emergency effort.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

BTW if you need a tank or something else post apocalypse just look for an Army or Marine Corps Depot.

Such as Sierra Army Depot outside Herlong, CA............ Literally hundreds of vehicles of all types parked in nice neat rows.

Google Earth this.
User avatar
whassupman03
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

ArmySGT. wrote:You don't need to re-engineer any diesel engine to burn biodiesel. You just have to have sufficient quantities of vegetable oil to catalyze with lye. You would have to give up food for fuel, though.

My mistake - I was confusing diesel/biodiesel engines with gasoline/ethanol engines (If my assumption was correct of course...).

ArmySGT. wrote:To what purpose? Even if bandits or a Death Cult has one...... So. They are as unlikely to have ammunition as the PCs. Within a week to a month it is going to be inoperable with a thrown track or mechanical failure without trained maintainers.

There are several ways to kill a tank, that don't require another tank. Amateurs operating one makes that even easier.

A commercial bulldozer with the tempered glass cabin would be just as effective against a horde of zombies.

Sure thing - maybe people can even use classic Molotov cocktails on tanks to burn them up if they hit critical weak points like the mechanisms related to turret rotation for example - because if you can jam the turret, you can limit the tank's effectiveness. Combat vehicles such as tanks require trained crews, so this is an important factor for those who want to kill tanks belonging to amateurs. Bulldozers can become "Poor Man's Tanks" as well - especially after the "Killdozer" incident in Granby, Colorado, where one disgruntled man armed and armored a bulldozer in an attempt to demolish an entire town.[sup]1[/sup]

ArmySGT. wrote:It is the British L7 gun first fielded on the Chieftain. The British smashed all competition at the NATO gunnery exercises in the 70s everyone wanted this gun. It is still capable against many threats and the ammunition is evolving. However, the ammunition to kill tanks is useless against a zombie horde and vice versa. The NATO standard 105mm main gun round. The M1A1 and M1A2 use the 120mm round. This means your only going to find 105mm on bases where the Stryker is fielded. Notice this list doesn't include the National Guard.

Yes, your M60A3 can fire the 105mm ammunition.... The gunners sights won't be calibrated for this newer higher velocity ammunition. It is all going to shoot high and off the mark.

Active army is going to have that tank gun ammo in hardened shelters in the Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) located on post near the gunnery ranges. This is run by a dedicated team of ammunition specialists. Members of a unit never go into the double cyclone fenced area of the ammo bunkers. The ammunition specialists bring it out of the bunkers to an ammunition holding area (AHA) for delivery to a unit authorized to receive it. Bunkers are not marked with their contents, and extremely valuable munitions, or munition that can be be used immediately upon uncrating (disposable AT rockets like the M72 LAW) are further protected by alarms, strobe lights, sirens, and a CS/CN gas bomb.

Active Brigade Combat Teams Posture:

• Fort Benning, Ga. -- 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Bliss, Texas -- 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Bragg, N.C. -- 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Campbell, Ky. – 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Carson, Colo. – 4 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Drum, N.Y. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Hood, Texas – 5 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Knox, Ky. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

Fort Lewis, Wash. – 3 Stryker Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Polk, La. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Richardson, Ak. – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Riley, Kan. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

• Fort Stewart, Ga. – 3 Brigade Combat Teams

Fort Wainwright, Ak. – 1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Schofield Barracks, Hawaii – 1 Brigade Combat Team

1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Fort Irwin (National Training Center), Calif. – 1 Brigade Combat Team (minus)

• Korea – 1 Brigade Combat Team

• Germany – 1 Stryker Brigade Combat Team

• Italy – 1 Brigade Combat Team

True - Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCTs) are fewer and far between than most Armored and Infantry BCTs (ABCTs and IBCTs respectively), and some modifications (Needing well-trained technicians) will be necessary for using ammunition effectively, if the resources can be made available. You also have a lot of good information on the Ammunition Supply Points that the US Armed Forces use as well - I might have to keep those defenses and procedures in mind for future study. :-)

ArmySGT. wrote:These are 60 tons each and a C-17 or C-5 is only going to be able to carry two of them. Further the tanks would have to be able to run and move on their own to be loaded aboard. This would be a HUGE waste of manpower, and jet fuel. The military transports tanks by rail or ship. Moving a tank by air is a last ditch emergency effort.

Good point. Perhaps one could use a refurbished ferry, such as those used by BC Ferries or Washington State Ferries?[sup]2, 3[/sup] Ferries such as these will require suitable docking facilities and infrastructure, but it could likely be accommodated in a pinch (Likely requiring the assistance of trained engineers and their equipment - maybe Seabees?).

ArmySGT. wrote:BTW if you need a tank or something else post apocalypse just look for an Army or Marine Corps Depot.

Such as Sierra Army Depot outside Herlong, CA............ Literally hundreds of vehicles of all types parked in nice neat rows.

Google Earth this.

Depots such as these are also valuable resources - particularly if you need a lot of hardware. 8) Even in the meantime, such isolated such as these depots and other resources can be better used by people who operate in the area, so that must be considered as well. Right now though, I have to go, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03

[1]: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killdozer_(bulldozer)
[2]: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Ferries#Fleet
[3]: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferries#Fleet
I don't normally kill zombies, but when I do, I use the...

BOOMSTICK!

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

jedi078 wrote:Nice find!

I think it bears pointing out that modern military armored fighting vehicles actually have MDC armor. Too many players (and GM's) ignore the fact that you can shoot them all day long with a pistol or rifle and the rounds will just bounce off. Now if you use something like a .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun those round will penetrate. So yeah toss that AR for armored vehicles out the freakin' door.

When it comes to modern battle tanks there have been reports of M1A1's taking multiple hits from enemy and even in friendly fire incidents and they keep on rocking. The most vulnerable point tho is the top of the turret and the treads.

Armored cars (both those that transport cash, and SUV's Limo's etc) can only last about 15 seconds when lit up by rifles (7.62mm, 5.56mm etc). A .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun will turn the vehicle into swiss cheese.

So my last little bit of advice (and this may tick off some GM's).....the USMC's LAV-25 and U.S. Army's Styker's operate much like a car. So yes you can operate them with the Pilot Auto skill. Both vehicles are part of the same vehicle family too, and can be legally driven on U.S. roadways.


Operating a LAV or Stryker would be more akin to driving a Class B straight frame like a garbage truck, 40' box van, or cement mixer. There should probably be a heavy wheeled vehicle skill.

Tanks are vulnerable at the roof, belly, and hatches. Then there is mobility kills like breaking a track link or blasting a road wheel off. The crew periscopes are vulnerable to snipers but, more often are damaged by dedicated MG fire or shell fragments. The Gunners sight is typically protected by steel shutters and being recessed into the armor. The gunners sight can be damaged by sniper or MG fire. Failure to do so quickly can get the shooter killed though.
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

whassupman03 wrote:My mistake - I was confusing diesel/biodiesel engines with gasoline/ethanol engines (If my assumption was correct of course...).
Turbines are already by their nature multifuel engines. If it can be sprayed into a vapor before the compressor it will burn. M1s eat JP-8, benzene, gasoline, JP-4, home heating oil, etc.
The M35 2 ½ ton truck has the continental inline 6. This is a multifuel diesel. As long as the fuel has lubricating qualities it will function just fine. Like 50/50 motor oil and gasoline.
The V-12 in a M60 (Powerpack) is a diesel with a low parts commonality with cummins diesels.
ArmySGT. wrote:To what purpose? Even if bandits or a Death Cult has one...... So. They are as unlikely to have ammunition as the PCs. Within a week to a month it is going to be inoperable with a thrown track or mechanical failure without trained maintainers.
There are several ways to kill a tank, that don't require another tank. Amateurs operating one makes that even easier.
A commercial bulldozer with the tempered glass cabin would be just as effective against a horde of zombies.

whassupman03 wrote: Sure thing - maybe people can even use classic Molotov cocktails on tanks to burn them up if they hit critical weak points like the mechanisms related to turret rotation for example - because if you can jam the turret, you can limit the tank's effectiveness. Combat vehicles such as tanks require trained crews, so this is an important factor for those who want to kill tanks belonging to amateurs. Bulldozers can become "Poor Man's Tanks" as well - especially after the "Killdozer" incident in Granby, Colorado, where one disgruntled man armed and armored a bulldozer in an attempt to demolish an entire town.[sup]1[/sup]

Molotovs have little effect on modern armor. NBC systems close and inside air is cleaned and recycled. The engine is screened and there are baffles and channels that direct burning fuel down and away from intakes. Further modern engines use mainly stainless steel tubing not the natural rubber of 1940s tech and high temperature silicones for wiring insulation. Things under the engine cover just don’t burn, and if they did the driver can activate the fire suppression system which is CO2 or halon. Molotov is going to burn out in 60 seconds.
Jamming the turret is possible, the electric motors that do this now are greater than 10 hp, and that makes it difficult.
Just forcing the crew to close the hatches and fight buttoned up severely restricts their vision.
ArmySGT. wrote:It is the British L7 gun first fielded on the Chieftain. The British smashed all competition at the NATO gunnery exercises in the 70s everyone wanted this gun. It is still capable against many threats and the ammunition is evolving. However, the ammunition to kill tanks is useless against a zombie horde and vice versa. The NATO standard 105mm main gun round. The M1A1 and M1A2 use the 120mm round. This means your only going to find 105mm on bases where the Stryker is fielded. Notice this list doesn't include the National Guard.
Yes, your M60A3 can fire the 105mm ammunition.... The gunners sights won't be calibrated for this newer higher velocity ammunition. It is all going to shoot high and off the mark.
Active army is going to have that tank gun ammo in hardened shelters in the Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) located on post near the gunnery ranges. This is run by a dedicated team of ammunition specialists. Members of a unit never go into the double cyclone fenced area of the ammo bunkers. The ammunition specialists bring it out of the bunkers to an ammunition holding area (AHA) for delivery to a unit authorized to receive it. Bunkers are not marked with their contents, and extremely valuable munitions, or munition that can be be used immediately upon uncrating (disposable AT rockets like the M72 LAW) are further protected by alarms, strobe lights, sirens, and a CS/CN gas bomb.


whassupman03 wrote: True - Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCTs) are fewer and far between than most Armored and Infantry BCTs (ABCTs and IBCTs respectively), and some modifications (Needing well-trained technicians) will be necessary for using ammunition effectively, if the resources can be made available. You also have a lot of good information on the Ammunition Supply Points that the US Armed Forces use as well - I might have to keep those defenses and procedures in mind for future study. :-)
Your just not going to HAVE any ammunition. 105mm tank gun ammunition is only going to be in the AHA at the Army post that fields guns that use it. If your game is in Nevada and you have an M60 that you liberated from a collector. You could get .50 bmg and 7.62 N from sources like the Air Force but, not 105mm.
A depot would have some. Propellants degrade, so within a few years the chance of a dud or a hang fire becomes possible. Good luck going through hundreds of bunkers to find the appropriate munitions though.
ArmySGT. wrote:These are 60 tons each and a C-17 or C-5 is only going to be able to carry two of them. Further the tanks would have to be able to run and move on their own to be loaded aboard. This would be a HUGE waste of manpower, and jet fuel. The military transports tanks by rail or ship. Moving a tank by air is a last ditch emergency effort.

whassupman03 wrote: Good point. Perhaps one could use a refurbished ferry, such as those used by BC Ferries or Washington State Ferries?[sup]2, 3[/sup] Ferries such as these will require suitable docking facilities and infrastructure, but it could likely be accommodated in a pinch (Likely requiring the assistance of trained engineers and their equipment - maybe Seabees?).
You still have to get the tank to the dock. I doubt that a civilian ferry has the hardened decking for a 60 ton main battle tank (equivalent to 30 cars), and is going to be damaged. You need a navy ship called a Roll on / Roll off. These are designed to carry a Brigade worth of vehicles and 72hours of supplies for continuous combat. Military transport command operates these with civilian crews. A dozen can be found at Diego Garcia fully loaded as part of the prepositioned fleet.
ArmySGT. wrote:BTW if you need a tank or something else post apocalypse just look for an Army or Marine Corps Depot.
Such as Sierra Army Depot outside Herlong, CA............ Literally hundreds of vehicles of all types parked in nice neat rows.
Google Earth this.

whassupman03 wrote: Depots such as these are also valuable resources - particularly if you need a lot of hardware. 8) Even in the meantime, such isolated such as these depots and other resources can be better used by people who operate in the area, so that must be considered as well. Right now though, I have to go, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.


A tank is a dubious use of resources in a post apocalyptic scenario.
User avatar
whassupman03
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

ArmySGT. wrote:
whassupman03 wrote:My mistake - I was confusing diesel/biodiesel engines with gasoline/ethanol engines (If my assumption was correct of course...).
Turbines are already by their nature multifuel engines. If it can be sprayed into a vapor before the compressor it will burn. M1s eat JP-8, benzene, gasoline, JP-4, home heating oil, etc.
The M35 2 ½ ton truck has the continental inline 6. This is a multifuel diesel. As long as the fuel has lubricating qualities it will function just fine. Like 50/50 motor oil and gasoline.
The V-12 in a M60 (Powerpack) is a diesel with a low parts commonality with cummins diesels.

I understand. Thank you for bring it to my attention. :-)

ArmySGT. wrote:
whassupman03 wrote: Sure thing - maybe people can even use classic Molotov cocktails on tanks to burn them up if they hit critical weak points like the mechanisms related to turret rotation for example - because if you can jam the turret, you can limit the tank's effectiveness. Combat vehicles such as tanks require trained crews, so this is an important factor for those who want to kill tanks belonging to amateurs. Bulldozers can become "Poor Man's Tanks" as well - especially after the "Killdozer" incident in Granby, Colorado, where one disgruntled man armed and armored a bulldozer in an attempt to demolish an entire town.[sup]1[/sup]

Molotovs have little effect on modern armor. NBC systems close and inside air is cleaned and recycled. The engine is screened and there are baffles and channels that direct burning fuel down and away from intakes. Further modern engines use mainly stainless steel tubing not the natural rubber of 1940s tech and high temperature silicones for wiring insulation. Things under the engine cover just don’t burn, and if they did the driver can activate the fire suppression system which is CO2 or halon. Molotov is going to burn out in 60 seconds.
Jamming the turret is possible, the electric motors that do this now are greater than 10 hp, and that makes it difficult. Just forcing the crew to close the hatches and fight buttoned up severely restricts their vision.

So it would be difficult to disable a tank using a Molotov cocktail? Perhaps one could use a hotter incendiary device in real life - I think I read a novel way back when which dealt with using incendiary devices used to disable modern armored vehicles, but right now the title escapes me. Anyway, if it comes to my attention, I might mention it later. :wink:

ArmySGT. wrote:
whassupman03 wrote: True - Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCTs) are fewer and far between than most Armored and Infantry BCTs (ABCTs and IBCTs respectively), and some modifications (Needing well-trained technicians) will be necessary for using ammunition effectively, if the resources can be made available. You also have a lot of good information on the Ammunition Supply Points that the US Armed Forces use as well - I might have to keep those defenses and procedures in mind for future study. :-)

Your just not going to HAVE any ammunition. 105mm tank gun ammunition is only going to be in the AHA at the Army post that fields guns that use it. If your game is in Nevada and you have an M60 that you liberated from a collector. You could get .50 bmg and 7.62 N from sources like the Air Force but, not 105mm.
A depot would have some. Propellants degrade, so within a few years the chance of a dud or a hang fire becomes possible. Good luck going through hundreds of bunkers to find the appropriate munitions though.

Well using tank ammunition depends on the nature of your game of course - you may have NPCs with munitions experience, so GMs will have to keep such things in mind.

ArmySGT. wrote:
whassupman03 wrote: Good point. Perhaps one could use a refurbished ferry, such as those used by BC Ferries or Washington State Ferries?[sup]2, 3[/sup] Ferries such as these will require suitable docking facilities and infrastructure, but it could likely be accommodated in a pinch (Likely requiring the assistance of trained engineers and their equipment - maybe Seabees?).
You still have to get the tank to the dock. I doubt that a civilian ferry has the hardened decking for a 60 ton main battle tank (equivalent to 30 cars), and is going to be damaged. You need a navy ship called a Roll on / Roll off. These are designed to carry a Brigade worth of vehicles and 72hours of supplies for continuous combat. Military transport command operates these with civilian crews. A dozen can be found at Diego Garcia fully loaded as part of the prepositioned fleet.

Unless you go the Dead Reign Sourcebook 5: Graveyard Earth route, people may be limited to resources in North America, except in cases where these ships have been recovered by parties Out-of-Game. Basically, if civilian car ferries may be too weak to handle a tank or two, maybe a General Frank S. Besson-class logistics support vessel of the US Army would do the trick? Only a few exist, and I don't know where they are based, but each one can carry 15 M1 Abrams tanks or 82 ISO-standard containers, and they can beach themselves like a landing craft.[sup]1[/sup] Maybe some handwavium could be used to say that they were used in the relief efforts during the Wave, before the zombies rose in an effort to transport large amounts of disaster relief equipment securely - we'll have to see! :D

ArmySGT. wrote:
whassupman03 wrote: Depots such as these are also valuable resources - particularly if you need a lot of hardware. 8) Even in the meantime, such isolated such as these depots and other resources can be better used by people who operate in the area, so that must be considered as well. Right now though, I have to go, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

A tank is a dubious use of resources in a post apocalyptic scenario.

Naturally, your advice is appreciated, thank you. Even so, I have to go, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 8)

[1]: Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Frank_S._Besson-class_logistics_support_vessel#Design
I don't normally kill zombies, but when I do, I use the...

BOOMSTICK!

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

ArmySGT. wrote:Operating a LAV or Stryker would be more akin to driving a Class B straight frame like a garbage truck, 40' box van, or cement mixer. There should probably be a heavy wheeled vehicle skill.

I think garbage trucks and cement mixers would full under the category of the 'Pilot Truck' skill. An LAV or Styker could be driven by anyone who has either Pilot Auto or Pilot Trucks, although I'd tack on a skill penalty of 20% for Auto, and 10% for Truck.

Personally since armored vehicles have different types of controls a character should initially have a penalty when trying to operate a vehicle he wasn't trained on.

ArmySGT. wrote:Tanks are vulnerable at the roof, belly, and hatches. Then there is mobility kills like breaking a track link or blasting a road wheel off. The crew periscopes are vulnerable to snipers but, more often are damaged by dedicated MG fire or shell fragments. The Gunners sight is typically protected by steel shutters and being recessed into the armor. The gunners sight can be damaged by sniper or MG fire. Failure to do so quickly can get the shooter killed though.

Yes the a tanks weakest points are the roof, belly and hatches but I've never heard of anything other thing smaller then a 20mm cannon, mortar shell or an anti-tank missile penetrating the top of a modern tank's turret.

The glass on the crew periscopes are pretty thick so your going to need an anti-material rifle (i.e. 12.7mm sniper rifle) to penatrate. A shell fragment penetrating would just be bad luck. As for dedicated machine gun fire yeah it can penetrate the glass, but odds are the machine gun will be taken out by the tanks own machine guns.

But yes the best way to 'take out' a tank is to get a mobility kill. After that point it just becomes a pillbox.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

jedi078 wrote:
ArmySGT. wrote:Operating a LAV or Stryker would be more akin to driving a Class B straight frame like a garbage truck, 40' box van, or cement mixer. There should probably be a heavy wheeled vehicle skill.

I think garbage trucks and cement mixers would full under the category of the 'Pilot Truck' skill. An LAV or Styker could be driven by anyone who has either Pilot Auto or Pilot Trucks, although I'd tack on a skill penalty of 20% for Auto, and 10% for Truck.

Personally since armored vehicles have different types of controls a character should initially have a penalty when trying to operate a vehicle he wasn't trained on.


Not exactly. The Driver on the LAV or the Stryker is in the front left of the vehicle just like a truck and the relationship stops there.

Imagine if you will you are sitting in your SUV. Now take paint and cover the rear window and side windows. Leave yourself just enough clear glass to see the side mirrors. there is no back up camera. Want someone to help you? They have to stand outside and wave their arms to direct you. Need someone to tell you. Well you can get those instructions through a headset but, you cannot see the person speaking or see the area they are describing.

You cannot backup except with the mirrors or better with someone outside letting you know when to stop or to turn left or right to avoid something.

Going forward? Seems easy, right? LOL watch that front right corner! Oh, you can't! The hull is in the way! Watch that flag coming up from the front corner to let you know where it is! The vehicles are eight feet wide not six feet like civilian cars and trucks. If your not over the centerline on a street the same width as a typical residential street you will hit parked cars.

Watch that Bridge! You're also much taller than a civilian car or pickup. You get into a residential area or old town lowbridges, low cables (electric shock), tree branches, hanging signs, etc.

Oh and add that turret to the mix. That gunner can really screw up your driving if he turns that turret off center line. You're going to take out signs. If that barrel is slammed into a tree or a building....... Well that is tougher than the teeth on the drive unit for the turret. That means you loose the ability to turn the turret...... except maybe if you can get out and push.

ArmySGT. wrote:Tanks are vulnerable at the roof, belly, and hatches. Then there is mobility kills like breaking a track link or blasting a road wheel off. The crew periscopes are vulnerable to snipers but, more often are damaged by dedicated MG fire or shell fragments. The Gunners sight is typically protected by steel shutters and being recessed into the armor. The gunners sight can be damaged by sniper or MG fire. Failure to do so quickly can get the shooter killed though.

Yes the a tanks weakest points are the roof, belly and hatches but I've never heard of anything other thing smaller then a 20mm cannon, mortar shell or an anti-tank missile penetrating the top of a modern tank's turret.

The glass on the crew periscopes are pretty thick so your going to need an anti-material rifle (i.e. 12.7mm sniper rifle) to penatrate. A shell fragment penetrating would just be bad luck. As for dedicated machine gun fire yeah it can penetrate the glass, but odds are the machine gun will be taken out by the tanks own machine guns.

But yes the best way to 'take out' a tank is to get a mobility kill. After that point it just becomes a pillbox.[/quote]

That was not to imply that rifle fire would penetrate the roof, belly, or hatches....... It does mean that a AT rocket such as the LAW that could not penetrate the sides or glacis; stands a chance of being effective if used there. This goes for other munitions that would be considered obsolete against 1980s vintage MBTs.

Glass is pretty think on periscopes, it isn't penetration that matters. It is a periscope after all. It is breaking the glass (or pitting it badly) so that the crewman can't see out.

One MG team operating alone, might be taken out by the tanks MGs....... Except..... You have to consider that the tanks coaxial MG is aimed using the gunners sight. With the tank buttoned up because of rifle and MG fire the gunner isn't going to open the sight cover.

Next that you have to consider that it is not one MG team alone........ The Chechens used multiple MGs together and RPG teams in tank hunting infantry teams. The use of MGs and mortars drove the infantry away from protecting the tanks, then the Tank hunting teams would begin hammering the tanks from multiple directions. The hatches closed, losing periscopes, and stuck in urban or wooded terrain the Russians lost a lot of Armor relearning the Tank / Infantry security relationship.
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

Not exactly. The Driver on the LAV or the Stryker is in the front left of the vehicle just like a truck and the relationship stops there.

Both have wheels, both have diesel engines, brakes, mirrors......

Imagine if you will you are sitting in your SUV. Now take paint and cover the rear window and side windows. Leave yourself just enough clear glass to see the side mirrors. there is no back up camera. Want someone to help you? They have to stand outside and wave their arms to direct you. Need someone to tell you. Well you can get those instructions through a headset but, you cannot see the person speaking or see the area they are describing.

You cannot backup except with the mirrors or better with someone outside letting you know when to stop or to turn left or right to avoid something.

Most big rigs have to rely on their mirrors as well to see behind them as well.

As for the SUV example, some armored cars are just converted vans and only have windows in the front of the vehicle.

Oh and LAV's have mirrors too!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Light ... ehicle.JPG
Not only that but the VC or gunner can turn around to look what is behind the vehicle, to the sides and so on to assist the driver in operating the vehicle. This is of course called teamwork, something armor crewman have to learn.

Going forward? Seems easy, right? LOL watch that front right corner! Oh, you can't! The hull is in the way! Watch that flag coming up from the front corner to let you know where it is! The vehicles are eight feet wide not six feet like civilian cars and trucks. If your not over the centerline on a street the same width as a typical residential street you will hit parked cars.

Quite a few semi trucks are 8 feet wide......or more.

Watch that Bridge! You're also much taller than a civilian car or pickup. You get into a residential area or old town lowbridges, low cables (electric shock), tree branches, hanging signs, etc.

Semi trucks also have the same problem......

Oh and add that turret to the mix. That gunner can really screw up your driving if he turns that turret off center line. You're going to take out signs. If that barrel is slammed into a tree or a building....... Well that is tougher than the teeth on the drive unit for the turret. That means you loose the ability to turn the turret...... except maybe if you can get out and push.

I'm pretty sure the VC and Gunner know better then to traverse the turret while driving down a highway at 50-60mph.

Anyhow I've talked to many a USMC LAV crewman who had no issues what so ever driving from Camp Pendleton to 29 Palms using the highways and freeways.

So....I'm really not buying all your doubts. Especially since I just debunked them.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
ArmySGT.
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by ArmySGT. »

jedi078 wrote:So....I'm really not buying all your doubts. Especially since I just debunked them.


Oh no........... I guess I will throw my Class A CDL in the trash then......... Some guys opinion made it invalid......

OK.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by eliakon »

So.....Pilot: APC & Tank?
Seriously isn't that why there is a special skill for driving these?
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

ArmySGT. wrote:
jedi078 wrote:So....I'm really not buying all your doubts. Especially since I just debunked them.


Oh no........... I guess I will throw my Class A CDL in the trash then......... Some guys opinion made it invalid......

OK.

I was just pointing out that LAV's and Styker's can be easily driven on civilian roadways. The fact is they were designed to be able to do just that.

eliakon wrote:So.....Pilot: APC & Tank?
Seriously isn't that why there is a special skill for driving these?

In all seriousness not possessing the Pilot: APC & Tank skill is not going to prevent you from operating a wheeled armored vehicle lile an LAV, Styker, ASV or MRAP. Would you have a hard time operating one if you didn't go through a formal school? Yes, but you'd figure it out since those vehicles are very similar to a car or truck.

Now when you get to a tracked armored vehicle they operate quite a bit different then a car or truck.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by eliakon »

jedi078 wrote:
eliakon wrote:So.....Pilot: APC & Tank?
Seriously isn't that why there is a special skill for driving these?

In all seriousness not possessing the Pilot: APC & Tank skill is not going to prevent you from operating a wheeled armored vehicle lile an LAV, Styker, ASV or MRAP. Would you have a hard time operating one if you didn't go through a formal school? Yes, but you'd figure it out since those vehicles are very similar to a car or truck.

Now when you get to a tracked armored vehicle they operate quite a bit different then a car or truck.

So let your GM make a house ruling on what, if any, penalty to assess to your Pilot: Automobile, or Pilot: Truck skill and go from there. Its not like a GM can't adjust things to fit how they think it should go after all. I was just pointing out that there IS a skill for this, which the RAW treats as being different. *shrugs*
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Trent
Explorer
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:27 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by Trent »

jedi078 wrote:Nice find!

I think it bears pointing out that modern military armored fighting vehicles actually have MDC armor. Too many players (and GM's) ignore the fact that you can shoot them all day long with a pistol or rifle and the rounds will just bounce off. Now if you use something like a .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun those round will penetrate. So yeah toss that AR for armored vehicles out the freakin' door.

When it comes to modern battle tanks there have been reports of M1A1's taking multiple hits from enemy and even in friendly fire incidents and they keep on rocking. The most vulnerable point tho is the top of the turret and the treads.

Armored cars (both those that transport cash, and SUV's Limo's etc) can only last about 15 seconds when lit up by rifles (7.62mm, 5.56mm etc). A .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun will turn the vehicle into swiss cheese.

So my last little bit of advice (and this may tick off some GM's).....the USMC's LAV-25 and U.S. Army's Styker's operate much like a car. So yes you can operate them with the Pilot Auto skill. Both vehicles are part of the same vehicle family too, and can be legally driven on U.S. roadways.

Seems like SDC and AR would apply but penetration value rules would come into play more .
Please Help a Family in Need : http://www.gofundme.com/y27ff9w ,
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by eliakon »

Trent wrote:
jedi078 wrote:Nice find!

I think it bears pointing out that modern military armored fighting vehicles actually have MDC armor. Too many players (and GM's) ignore the fact that you can shoot them all day long with a pistol or rifle and the rounds will just bounce off. Now if you use something like a .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun those round will penetrate. So yeah toss that AR for armored vehicles out the freakin' door.

When it comes to modern battle tanks there have been reports of M1A1's taking multiple hits from enemy and even in friendly fire incidents and they keep on rocking. The most vulnerable point tho is the top of the turret and the treads.

Armored cars (both those that transport cash, and SUV's Limo's etc) can only last about 15 seconds when lit up by rifles (7.62mm, 5.56mm etc). A .50 cal or 14.5mm machine gun will turn the vehicle into swiss cheese.

So my last little bit of advice (and this may tick off some GM's).....the USMC's LAV-25 and U.S. Army's Styker's operate much like a car. So yes you can operate them with the Pilot Auto skill. Both vehicles are part of the same vehicle family too, and can be legally driven on U.S. roadways.

Seems like SDC and AR would apply but penetration value rules would come into play more .

Correct, the Dead Reign game as written does not have MDC, which means that even a Tank is not an MDC structure, its just got lots of SDC, a high Vehicular AR, and of course the most important thing here.....the GM needs to use common sense. Just because a normal person does 'damage' with their fist does not mean that they can punch down a cement wall, nor does it mean that the wall is MDC. It means that the GM needs to be willing to look at something and say 'nope sorry, get the right tool'
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Trent
Explorer
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:27 pm

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by Trent »

Also these vehicles dont have to be use as is . Can always scrap them for armor , parts and the weapons themselves for use on something else . Enhance another vehicle or added defence to a safe haven . Just make sure PCs have the right skills or people to do so . And then there is the problem of getting the vehicle to a place to safely scavenge it for those parts after getting past those zombies attracted by all the noise of heavy equipment moveing around . A good sized adventure could spring from all this if the effort and risk is deemed worth the reward .
Please Help a Family in Need : http://www.gofundme.com/y27ff9w ,
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

eliakon wrote:
Trent wrote:Seems like SDC and AR would apply but penetration value rules would come into play more .

Correct, the Dead Reign game as written does not have MDC, which means that even a Tank is not an MDC structure, its just got lots of SDC, a high Vehicular AR, and of course the most important thing here.....the GM needs to use common sense. Just because a normal person does 'damage' with their fist does not mean that they can punch down a cement wall, nor does it mean that the wall is MDC. It means that the GM needs to be willing to look at something and say 'nope sorry, get the right tool'


Yes you have to apply some common sense to military grade vehicles and equipment. You can shoot a tank or other armored vehicle ALL DAY LONG with a rifle or pistol and all you will do is scratch the paint.

The best and most simple way to apply this bit of common sense is for the GM to make certain vehicle and structures MDC items. This way the player knows that he/she needs to go get that 'right tool'.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by eliakon »

jedi078 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Trent wrote:Seems like SDC and AR would apply but penetration value rules would come into play more .

Correct, the Dead Reign game as written does not have MDC, which means that even a Tank is not an MDC structure, its just got lots of SDC, a high Vehicular AR, and of course the most important thing here.....the GM needs to use common sense. Just because a normal person does 'damage' with their fist does not mean that they can punch down a cement wall, nor does it mean that the wall is MDC. It means that the GM needs to be willing to look at something and say 'nope sorry, get the right tool'


Yes you have to apply some common sense to military grade vehicles and equipment. You can shoot a tank or other armored vehicle ALL DAY LONG with a rifle or pistol and all you will do is scratch the paint.

The best and most simple way to apply this bit of common sense is for the GM to make certain vehicle and structures MDC items. This way the player knows that he/she needs to go get that 'right tool'.

Why would that be the 'best and most simple way'? Wouldn't the simplest way be to just say "no that attack has no effect on that target" and move on rather than importing a mechanic from another game, and then figuring out how it works for everything. (do zombie punches do MD especially the big ones like a Walking Grave, if not then why not, if so then why don't they instantly kill people, or is it variable), And then there is the question "how tough does something have to be before its suddenly MDC and immune to lesser forces."
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
jedi078
Champion
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:21 pm
Comment: The next group of player characters to surrender in one of my games are going to play Russian roulette.
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by jedi078 »

eliakon wrote:Why would that be the 'best and most simple way'? Wouldn't the simplest way be to just say "no that attack has no effect on that target" and move on rather than importing a mechanic from another game, and then figuring out how it works for everything. (do zombie punches do MD especially the big ones like a Walking Grave, if not then why not, if so then why don't they instantly kill people, or is it variable), And then there is the question "how tough does something have to be before its suddenly MDC and immune to lesser forces."

With the game designers giving such vehicles an AR rating some rules lawyer may argue that if he/she rolls above the AR, his/her weapon should rightly damage the tank despite it being among those listed as in effective. So yes making them MDC nips that problem in the butt with a clear cut rule: SDC weapons can't damage MDC objects.

Furthermore, the Dead Reign game takes place in the modern day, and in today's world there are vehicles that exist that have 'MDC' armor, and have armaments capable of inflicting 'MDC' damage.

Last but not least the books even state that a GM can change things to his/her liking. Me I prefer to adhere to common sense. The common sense in this case is that tanks and armored personnel carriers have MDC grade armor, and have armament capable of inflicting MDC damage.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem".
Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by eliakon »

jedi078 wrote:
eliakon wrote:Why would that be the 'best and most simple way'? Wouldn't the simplest way be to just say "no that attack has no effect on that target" and move on rather than importing a mechanic from another game, and then figuring out how it works for everything. (do zombie punches do MD especially the big ones like a Walking Grave, if not then why not, if so then why don't they instantly kill people, or is it variable), And then there is the question "how tough does something have to be before its suddenly MDC and immune to lesser forces."

With the game designers giving such vehicles an AR rating some rules lawyer may argue that if he/she rolls above the AR, his/her weapon should rightly damage the tank despite it being among those listed as in effective. So yes making them MDC nips that problem in the butt with a clear cut rule: SDC weapons can't damage MDC objects.

If your problem is a rules lawer, then simply adding another (abuseable) rule isn't really going to solve anything though is it?

jedi078 wrote:Furthermore, the Dead Reign game takes place in the modern day, and in today's world there are vehicles that exist that have 'MDC' armor, and have armaments capable of inflicting 'MDC' damage.

Not really. Modern heavy armors don't act like MDC, of course things don't act like SDC either so.....
But 'modern MDC' can be broken with hand tools (trust me on this, I have done it. It takes a long time, but works) And the 'MD weapons' can be blocked with 'SDC' materials (and what caliber does MD start at anyway? a .50 cal will punch through a building easy.)

jedi078 wrote:Last but not least the books even state that a GM can change things to his/her liking. Me I prefer to adhere to common sense. The common sense in this case is that tanks and armored personnel carriers have MDC grade armor, and have armament capable of inflicting MDC damage.

If you want to change the game to add MD/MDC to it that's cool. I just think its an easily abused complication that adds nothing that cant be handled by some common sense.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
azazel1024
Champion
Posts: 2550
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:43 am
Comment: So an ogre, an orc and a gnome walk in to a bar...
Location: Columbia, MD

Re: A Useful Resource of Armored Vehicles for Dead Reign

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Addressed in-line.

ArmySGT. wrote:There is several large problems with armored vehicles.

1) The are maintenance intensive.
Like one hour of maintenance for X hours operating, more so if it is tracked. This varies considerably be vehicle type and individual system requiring maintenance. Aircraft are even worse some requiring ten hours for each hour of flight.

Very true, but some of the wheeled ones actually aren't too bad. I don't recall exactly what the LAV-25 runs to, but it is over 10:1 IIRC (IE more than 10 operating hours per 1 maintenace hour)

2) Parts are in military supply lines only.
Can't go to a corner auto parts or even a local heavy diesel repair and find spares for anything.

ish. Some of the parts actually are civilian carry-overs (rare though) or can be modified from existing civilian light and heavy commerical truck parts. At least if you are skilled and have minor fab tools

3) Consume massive quantities of fuel.
The M1114 uparmored Humvee is about 5 mpg. The M1 Abrams consume 8 gallons for one mile moved. It will consume those 8 gallons in an hour not even moving.

Actually the M-1A1 is around .4MPG, which is around 2.2 gallons per mile, not 8 gallons per mile. It is still a HORRIBLE fuel suck, but it isn't quite as bad as you say. Also the M1A1 is a little unique in that it uses a gas turbine engine, which is horribly fuel inefficient. IIRC the M-60, which is a turbo diesel is closer to 2mpg (okay, also still terrible, but still)

4) Maintainers are only in the military.
Sure, you could have a veteran who was a heavy diesel mechanic, or an Ordnance guy, or a M1 Abrams turret mechanic. As a percentage of the population those are going to be low, and they don't for the most part have civilian equivalents.

Ahhhh, sure. However a lot of the armored vehicles really aren't that complex in the end. I've poked around under the "hood" of a LAV-25. Most of it was straight forward enough I am positive I could pull maintenance on one given a few hours to puzzle it over even without the manual. With the manual, not nearly so long. I could probably also do pretty major repairs to one given the tools/equipment. I don't think I could replace a blade in an M1A1 gas turbine engine, even with a manual, but something basic like a M-1114, LAV-25 or M-60...probably for a lot of the systems I could (even if it took me 2-5x longer than an actual depot mechanic)

5) Armor is used where it is needed most.
There really isn't that many tanks in any Division not designated an Armor Division. So you would expect to find armored vehicles where ever fighting was heaviest or the defense most crucial.

What is your point? Or is it just speaking to commonness? Plenty of National Guard depots have armored vehicles in them. The Support Brigade depot near me has plenty of duece and a halfs, up armored M-1114s and from time to time I see 1-4 Bradleys within the fence as well as generally a few converted strykers (as bridge layers).

6) Ammunition.
The federal govt does not disperse ammunition to the States. When the National Guard goes to train with live ammunition this is dispensed from federal control. Some National Guard training centers are going to have small arms ammunition (up to 50 BMG) for annual qualifications but not stuff like tank main gun ammunition, 25mm chain gun, AT rockets, or artillery shells.

Sure...but you need it why? Zombies here.

7) Transport.
Tanks don't typically go far. They are moved to near where they start by heavy diesel trucks and flatbed lowboys appropriately called Tank Haulers or Tank Transporters. This is because of the wear and maintenance issues again with the tracks and tank suspensions.

This doesn't apply to many armored vehicles, like M-1114s for example or most other wheeled armored vehicles that are transported by their own wheels (except when going REALLY far. Then often trains)

8) Tanks are loud.
The main gun certainly makes its presences known when fired. The engine is LOUD, couple this with the screeching and clanging of the track links passing over rollers and meshing with the teeth of the sprockets! Well it sounds like a metal reclamation yard rolling down a hill in an avalanche. Watch some youtube videos where you can hear the engines to see what I mean.

Doesn't generally apply to wheeled armored vehicles. I've driven a LAV-25. It significantly quieter than most pickup trucks with open exhaust. Even if it was very quite I think you'd probably have trouble hearing it from more than a couple of hundred yards away if you were driving slowly

9) Tanks are nearly useless against zombies.
Tanks are meant to engage other tanks and hard structures like concrete bunkers. Against something soft the tank would employ the MGs like the coaxial. Thus your tank would need to be exclusively armed with Anti personnel ammunition, composed of ball bearings, this acts like a shotgun shell. Wickedly effective against infantry however, since Zombies require brain trauma to be eliminated, this still isn't an effective shell. Thus you have to run them over and hope you don't get your tank stuck, which is relatively easy too.

Ahh, except not true. What is a zombie going to do? Bang on the armor until you can't stand it and put a bullet through your head? If you wanted to use a main gun, an HE or flechette shell would do a mean job of clearing away a bunch of zombies. Ignoring main gun, it often takes a bit to actually climb up the side of an armored vehicle, especially if you are a rather brainless zombie. You can take your time sniping them from an open hatch, or if you have a hatch mounted MG, use that on them. Start getting overwhelmed, shut the hatch and you are as safe as the day you were born. Need to clean a couple off after you drive away? Insert ear plugs, pull pin on grenade, crack hatch roll grenade out and reshut hatch. Or depending on the vehicle and where you are, drive through the side of a house/shack to brush some of them off



I don't disagree that armored vehicles would have limited utility and be a pain in the patoot to keep running. That is far from being worthless and not being able to operate.
Post Reply

Return to “Dead Reign™”