Boat Based Campaign

You are on your own. The Army is MIA and our government is gone! There are no communications of any kind. Cities and towns have gone dark, and zombies fill the streets. The dead have risen and it would seem to be the end of the world. Help me, Mommy!

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Severus Snape
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Severus Snape »

Well, to start with, while you've included hurricanes, you forgot all other water-borne storms. Rain and wind - even if not hurricane-force - can still cause major issues, especially for smaller craft. Boats can be capsized and sunk outside of hurricanes. Watch Deadliest Catch reruns - they deal with rogue waves, big waves, and all other kinds of weather-related issues in the Bering Sea.

And that reminds me - are we assuming your campaign will be in a tropical location? If not, boats can get stuck in ice packs in the winter. Not to mention how cold it is on a boat in winter in the middle of the ocean. And are we talking about on the ocean, or in a lake somewhere? Maybe anchored off shore on a river, such as the Mississippi?

And let's discuss other water hazards - what about dangerous animals, such as snakes, alligators, crocodiles (depending on area of the world), jellyfish, barracuda, piranha, sharks...you get the point. Zombies aren't the only things that may want to snack on the survivors.

My last idea (for this topic, and only at the moment as I'm sure I'll think of something else): I'm sure the PCs aren't the only ones who will have thought of using boats, right? What about pirates and other living enemies using boats and trying to attack the PCs?
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Don't forget sailboats. They have their own set of issues and foibles. Of course keep in mind, most sailboats of any real size at a minimum have an outboard and probably an inboard engine (most inboards are diesels) for manuevering in harbors and for low wind days. Really depends on the boat, but most have anywhere from enough power to handle about 2kts in calm weather up to around 8-10kts in to moderate winds (obviously with the sails down) and anything from about 5-10kt of range with fuel on board to 200-300kt.

Also generators, wind turbines and solar cells are going to play a roll in onboard power generation. Limited drinking and bathing water, etc.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Severus Snape wrote:Well, to start with, while you've included hurricanes, you forgot all other water-borne storms. Rain and wind - even if not hurricane-force - can still cause major issues, especially for smaller craft. Boats can be capsized and sunk outside of hurricanes. Watch Deadliest Catch reruns - they deal with rogue waves, big waves, and all other kinds of weather-related issues in the Bering Sea.

True nuff, one of the worst storms I was in was a tropical storm in Mississippi it never made hurricane. But dang there was more water than the hurricane that did roll through that year, couldn't see the end of the car, except the lights. Had to drive REALLY slow to get home and the water was up to the bottom of the car within an hour of the downpour starting. That was a misserable night, I'd rather face any NORMAL hurricane than that again. So a tropical storm with a massive downpour in a zombie setting is as dangerous if not more so than a dark hospital. They sense you and see your lights but you can't see them or even which way to run if you happen to hear them through the noise of all the damn rain! Lesson... storms are unpredictable and SUCK!
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Razzinold »

If you want some good ideas for describing damage done and how hard it can be to just get around during a flood. You should read Flesh Eaters by Joe McKinney (and Dead City and Apocalypse of the Dead by the same author). Dead City takes place in San Antonio and Flesh Eaters takes place in Houston and the streets of Houston are flooded because of massive hurricanes.

Everyone else appears to have covered major things, like storms, animals and pirates, but what about more mundane side effects to boat travel ? Like sea sickness, having enough room to store your gear and food on smaller boats, rats infesting your boats. How about toilets and garbage ? are you just going to dump it over the side of the boat when that's the water you are fishing in ?
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by azazel1024 »

You also have maintenance on the boat, cleaning the hull, hull leaks, cleaning the bilge, etc.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Arnie100 »

You still gotta find fuel for those boats. Other people would be fighting for that fuel, as well.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by MurderCityDisciple »

Wouldn't a game based off a nuclear submarine be a neat idea.
The characters would be at sea when the wave struck...

The game would start off with an onboard survival horror scenario, then basically go on from there.
Cruising around trying to find answers, a cure, having to sneak off for supplies, rescues ect.

Anyone know the minimum possible crew to man a modern nuke sub?
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Hendrik »

Hi there,

this is an excellent idea!!! :-D

For the crew numbers you could start here: Nuclear Submarines (wikipedia).

Crewing will naturally depend on size, but I'd say around 100 - 150 men for a nuclear sub sounds about right / not too far off.

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by azazel1024 »

Short term or long term? Short term you could likely operate it with between 8-12 individuals. This would be for simple operations, not fighting or any kind of long term operations. Minimum crewing levels for prolonged operations depends on the size of the vessel. A Los Angeles class attack sub has 126 crew. You could probably get away with half crew strength so long as you don't mind reduced war fighting ability. You could maybe manage with 1/4 crew strength for prolonged operation, but you likely would not be able to fight the ship and you'd be a drastically reduced damage control ability, maintenance would suffer, etc...but you could probably still operate the ship for a prolonged period of time. So for something like a Los Angeles class, you might get away with as few as 30 people to operate it prolonged.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by kevinslkt »

GAR0351 wrote:Does anyone have any ideas or experiences to share that would help create an entertaining but realistic experience? :)


You might wanna check that reality show called the "Colony" I think it was on A&E or something like that for some sense of realism in your campaign.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Illendaver »

Ocean cruise liners. Carribean getaway cruise ships. Everybody has seen the adds for those on tv at some point or another... a mobile safety zone?
Captain Ahab II, a zombie hating captain of a large yacht that has been converted into an attack boat. Captain orders the attack without any retreat untill they run out of ammo whenever zombies are spotted. He can also rob/shanghi the players too.
Also, don't forget that planes and helicopters can fly over water too.
I recall hearing about a japanese fighter plane that crashed on an island out in the pacific during WW2 and was never found (because nobody ever bothered to land on that imparticular island) until 1996 or so. The pilots thought the war was still going on when they were rescued. Could stick a hermit out on his island that has been waiting for so long to be rescued that he went a little looney. Or a whole thriving colony that was assumed to have gone down with the ship in the bermuda triangle.
Also, why has nobody else mentioned the bermuda triangle yet? That is your "I can make all the weirdo stuff I want happen and it doesn't have to make sense anymore" card.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by bigbobsr6000 »

Aircraft Carrier at sea or docked.

Could have civilians aboard at sea like a News crew, Senator/Congressman/Congresswoman and staff on board at sea. Could be on sea trials with civilian engineers/techs on board.

At dock, civilians could be on board for a tour, plus civilian groups as above. A certain amount of Sailors/Marines/Pilots could be on shore leave and trying to get back to ship. Despondent loved ones trying to get to ship to find loved ones on ship. Or just survivors going to ship scavenging for stuff.

Aircraft Carrier is a floating city and a great source for food, weapons, combat gear, etc. Also, lost of nook and crannies for Zombies to be. If at dock, possible to clear of Zombies and keep gangway up.

Great source for new NPCs and PCs.

Still, bad weather can still affect the carrier.

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

Since I am new to this conversation (And it is a good conversation... :-D), I will post what I think may help with this discussion. It's a blog article that, while limited to the Pacific Northwest, would be helpful for some pointers on staying alive out around the Pacific Coastline with limited resources...

http://survivalblog.com/pacific_coastal_living_and_sur/

...but anyway, I hope this helps out. With some additions and modifications, I believe that it can be used as real-world resource material in a Dead Reign campaign for game masters who like to add a lot of realism. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 8)

P.S.: Due to computer difficulties, my posts may be more limited in number, since I am using public computer equipment to post. :-( Hopefully you will understand, thank you.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by CyCo »

MurderCityDisciple wrote:Wouldn't a game based off a nuclear submarine be a neat idea.
The characters would be at sea when the wave struck...

The game would start off with an onboard survival horror scenario, then basically go on from there.
Cruising around trying to find answers, a cure, having to sneak off for supplies, rescues ect.

Anyone know the minimum possible crew to man a modern nuke sub?


As suggested viewing, try On the Beach The movie is an oldie, but from memory, was quite good for it's day (back in 1959). Not a zombie apocalypse, but a nuclear apocalypse. Follow the link for more info about the movie. It doesn't have a happy ending. But does involve a nuclear sub. Based on a book by the same name.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

Keereeon wrote:
whassupman03 wrote:Hello...

Since I am new to this conversation (And it is a good conversation... :-D), I will post what I think may help with this discussion. It's a blog article that, while limited to the Pacific Northwest, would be helpful for some pointers on staying alive out around the Pacific Coastline with limited resources...

http://survivalblog.com/pacific_coastal_living_and_sur/

...but anyway, I hope this helps out. With some additions and modifications, I believe that it can be used as real-world resource material in a Dead Reign campaign for game masters who like to add a lot of realism. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 8)

P.S.: Due to computer difficulties, my posts may be more limited in number, since I am using public computer equipment to post. :-( Hopefully you will understand, thank you.


Hi and thanks for reading and repliying to my post. Ireally enjoyed the article and you are right in saying there are lots of ideas in there that can help a GM make his DR campaign realistic. I will certainly be moving my own campaign into a more survivalist mode than the constant Zombie-fighting it has been for a while.

Now, I will try and make my question more specific because the article did not cover the point I was wondering about. Mainly, I would like my PCs to start using the waterways in the city to travel quickly and most importantly, quietly to different areas. For example, they would use several canoes to travel from their safehouse to a store, then raid the store and come back with the supplies. Do you think Zeds would easily spot them from the shore? Will the sound of paddling be noticed and provoke the Moan? Can Zeds swim/float and reach a boat travelling in the middle of a river? Should they expect an enormous horde waiting for them when they come ashore?

Thanks again for reading and have a wonderful day!

Sorry for not replying earlier - I have had limited access to the necessary computer equipment, so now I'll try to answer your questions with what knowledge I do have here. First of all, I know that Zeds can spot life energy from afar, but you'll have to confer with other forum members to see if they can spot you at longer distances than they can in other scenarios, like the common skyscraper scenario. As for the sound of paddling: I believe that as long as you stay out of sight and maintain patient, quiet paddling, you will have a solid chance of surviving such a supply run. If you watch the movie World War Z, there's a scene where the characters used bicycles and slow peddling to quietly get around without alerting the nearby zombies. While the zombies were later alerted to their presence, I don't think that it was the bike or the peddling that did it. However, if you refer to the final pages of Dead Reign Sourcebook 4: Fear the Reaper, they have listings of which zombies can float or swim. Therefore, your PCs will need to keep an eye on what kind of zombies are around there. But right now, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 8)

P.S.: Oh and I'm glad you appreciate my input Keereeon, thanks a lot! :D
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Icefalcon »

I see a lot of suggestions for very large vessels (such as the aircraft carrier or submarine). One of the things to keep in mind for those, they carry a very large crew. If you run the numbers as suggested in the core book the number of survivors needed to run those vessels (with any degree of competence) would just not be there. Also imagine overflowing hospitals and military bases shipping Americans from overseas to a aircraft carrier. It would not be too long before that carrier belongs to the zombies and not the living.

Bigger is not always better. Myself, I would rather go with a Navy PT gunboat. Depending on which model, you have a crew of 10-20 and it is armed and armored. It also is designed for river and coastal operations.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Tor »

I am picturing death cults strapping lifejackets to zombies so they can float and swim after you.

I don't know if normal zombies could do that, but I expect Pattern Zombies on occasion might be inclined to. Maybe also Thinkers/Hunters? Mocks for certain.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

Keereeon wrote:Thanks for the reply again whassupman03, and no worries about taking time to answer, I'm also on the slow side. I'm actually getting used to this forum and trying to find ideas and answers to some issues I've had in a DR campaign I've been running for a while. On you recommendation (and since it had been a long time since I wanted to see it), I've watched WWZ and saw that scene where the characters are making their way by bike on an airfield full of zombies: neat! Also gives a good idea of how quiet you'd need to be to avoid Zeds noticing the sound of paddling. Moreover, I've been carefully reading DR sourcebook 2: Dark Places and could find in there part of an answer to my questions. On page 31, it specifically states that "travel along rivers and lakes (...) isn't as safe as you might think". Most Zombies can't swim but they'll survive underwater and could certainly notice a kayak or canoe passing by close to them. More importantly Zeds will be wandering along the riverside and could eventually spot them especially if they don't take care to hide themselves carefully because of the glow. In conclusion, using the rivers to travel through a city is probably a really dangerous idea for PCs but can still make for an interesting and suspenseful setting! Thanks again for the input and talk to you soon!

I'm glad you thought so! WWZ was in my opinion a very good movie, and from what I hear, they are possibly going to make two more. However, they are disputing whether to continue the WWZ storyline or do movies based on The Zombie Survival Guide and the accompanying comic book. Personally, I'm hoping for a continuation of what they have on film so far. :-)

Icefalcon wrote:I see a lot of suggestions for very large vessels (such as the aircraft carrier or submarine). One of the things to keep in mind for those, they carry a very large crew. If you run the numbers as suggested in the core book the number of survivors needed to run those vessels (with any degree of competence) would just not be there. Also imagine overflowing hospitals and military bases shipping Americans from overseas to a aircraft carrier. It would not be too long before that carrier belongs to the zombies and not the living.

Bigger is not always better. Myself, I would rather go with a Navy PT gunboat. Depending on which model, you have a crew of 10-20 and it is armed and armored. It also is designed for river and coastal operations.

One of my previous ideas that I was toying with in my head was to use the carrier USS Enterprise as a mobile offshore base when the Wave hit. The "Big E" was meant to be withdrawn from service about that time, but they could quickly bring it back into action when the Wave hit and base Marine and Navy helicopters and light aircraft from it as part of the relief effort. Sure - it may be a very vague and possibly unrealistic idea, but I was just thinking about things in my head. Oh well...

Tor wrote:I am picturing death cults strapping lifejackets to zombies so they can float and swim after you.

I don't know if normal zombies could do that, but I expect Pattern Zombies on occasion might be inclined to. Maybe also Thinkers/Hunters? Mocks for certain.

Creepy! But if I remember correctly, zombies can survive with as little as 12% of their body left (Given that the head isn't missing...), so they could literally walk on the floors of lakes, seas, and oceans.[sup]1[/sup] And like in The Zombie Survival Guide, they can always climb up an anchor chain. Even so, at least the life jackets would give Zack the edge in getting aboard seagoing vessels... :twisted:

Well now I have to go, so please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good week.

whassupman03 8)

[1]: Source: Dead Reign Sourcebook 4: Fear the Reaper
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by asajosh »

Illendaver wrote:Ocean cruise liners. Carribean getaway cruise ships. Everybody has seen the adds for those on tv at some point or another... a mobile safety zone?
Captain Ahab II, a zombie hating captain of a large yacht that has been converted into an attack boat. Captain orders the attack without any retreat untill they run out of ammo whenever zombies are spotted. He can also rob/shanghi the players too.
Also, don't forget that planes and helicopters can fly over water too.
I recall hearing about a japanese fighter plane that crashed on an island out in the pacific during WW2 and was never found (because nobody ever bothered to land on that imparticular island) until 1996 or so. The pilots thought the war was still going on when they were rescued. Could stick a hermit out on his island that has been waiting for so long to be rescued that he went a little looney. Or a whole thriving colony that was assumed to have gone down with the ship in the bermuda triangle.
Also, why has nobody else mentioned the bermuda triangle yet? That is your "I can make all the weirdo stuff I want happen and it doesn't have to make sense anymore" card.


I just returned from a cruise and a scenario based on one would be a tight spot. About 3500 passengers and 500 or so crew on my ship. Even on those big boats the public spaces can get crowded quickly. Add to that the crew have access doorways/tunnels all over the place. An initial outbreak on a cruise ship would be a slaughter.

Hiding in your cabin will be ok for a while, until someone (living or otherwise) breaks in the door.

There may be an armory aboard, I was not aware of one. But there are metal detectors on entry to the ship and at each port in Bermuda, so bringing aboard a firearm is not likely. People would be left to defend themselves with whatever they had handy and hands and feet.

Best case scenario you are able to escape in a life raft, wait out at sea for a few days, and make your way to an island.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

asajosh wrote:I just returned from a cruise and a scenario based on one would be a tight spot. About 3500 passengers and 500 or so crew on my ship. Even on those big boats the public spaces can get crowded quickly. Add to that the crew have access doorways/tunnels all over the place. An initial outbreak on a cruise ship would be a slaughter.

Hiding in your cabin will be ok for a while, until someone (living or otherwise) breaks in the door.

There may be an armory aboard, I was not aware of one. But there are metal detectors on entry to the ship and at each port in Bermuda, so bringing aboard a firearm is not likely. People would be left to defend themselves with whatever they had handy and hands and feet.

Best case scenario you are able to escape in a life raft, wait out at sea for a few days, and make your way to an island.

Just curious: What was the luggage situation when you were on your cruise? Did you have your luggage stored in your cabin, in the hold, or in both (Such as carry-on and checked baggage...)? I ask because I reckon that the items in your luggage might assist your survival if an outbreak may happen. Though I don't really know how the luggage policies on a cruise liner work, I tend to think in a cruise ship scenario such information may be useful. Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Icefalcon »

I am pretty sure that cruise liners have the same kind of banned lists for their ships as airplanes.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

Icefalcon wrote:I am pretty sure that cruise liners have the same kind of banned lists for their ships as airplanes.

Thanks for answering my question, I really appreciate it. :D Please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 8)

P.S.: I hope that all of you had a Happy Thanksgiving too... :-)
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Icefalcon »

I found an example list https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/plan ... ted-items/

This by no means covers every cruise line companies but would be a good basis.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

Icefalcon wrote:I found an example list https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/plan ... ted-items/

This by no means covers every cruise line companies but would be a good basis.

Wow. That's a lot of prohibited items! Anyway, it looks like being on a Disney-run cruise ship (Or just about any cruise ship for that manner) may be problematic when the Wave hits and the zombies rise. You just can't bring much useful stuff onboard, even if for some odd reason you expected it to happen (Conspiracy nuts rejoice! :lol:). Anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good day.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Trent »

GAR0351 wrote:So I'm thinking about starting a new game but keeping it in a coastal setting. This would encourage using boats for transportation and survival. Some things I'm thinking about including in this game...
speed boats
air boats in the mud flats/swamps
oil tankers/shipping container ships
off shore oil rigs as islands of safety
hurricanes
alligators (being based along the Gulf Coast)
making salvage runs up local rivers
fishing for food/trade
creating a survivor's culture off-shore and on islands

Does anyone have any ideas or experiences to share that would help create an entertaining but realistic experience? :)

There are a lot of small uninhabited coastal islands that large ships , barges and other boats could be anchored to and beached on to create a basis for a water world like safe haven and still have enough land to grow food . And still be close to the main land and small coastal communities for scavenging resources .
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

GAR0351 wrote:So I'm thinking about starting a new game but keeping it in a coastal setting. This would encourage using boats for transportation and survival. Some things I'm thinking about including in this game...
speed boats
air boats in the mud flats/swamps
oil tankers/shipping container ships
off shore oil rigs as islands of safety
hurricanes
alligators (being based along the Gulf Coast)
making salvage runs up local rivers
fishing for food/trade
creating a survivor's culture off-shore and on islands

Does anyone have any ideas or experiences to share that would help create an entertaining but realistic experience? :)

Returning to the conversation, I don't have personal experience like that of which you need, but if you want to set up a campaign near the Gulf Coast I can recommend shows like Swamp People on History, which is in its sixth season and covers alligator hunting, swamps, hurricanes, fishing, and other things like that, and I can also mentioned bits and pieces of shows like Ax Men on the same channel, which has been going for quite a long time, includes segments near the Gulf of Mexico, and can be useful for inspiration about a survivor's culture and salvage runs.[sup]1, 2[/sup] Additionally, one of the favorite characters on Ax Men, Shelby the Swamp Man, got his own spin-off for a little while titled The Legend of Shelby the Swamp Man, which aired one season and a couple of specials (Trust me, he is quite a character, and one of our family's favorites! :-)).[sup]3[/sup] I believe that shows like these would be helpful to you. But anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:

Sources:

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swamp_People
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ax_Men
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Shelby_the_Swamp_Man
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by Tor »

I suddenly thought: if you body flip/throw a person and they land in water, would they even take damage?

I guess fall-based damage doesn't discriminate about ground/water but you figure water should, at least at lower drops, reduce it somehow.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by SittingBull »

Tor wrote:I suddenly thought: if you body flip/throw a person and they land in water, would they even take damage?

I guess fall-based damage doesn't discriminate about ground/water but you figure water should, at least at lower drops, reduce it somehow.


Depending on how they hit the water. If they plunge in head first wouldn't be as bad, as if they hit the water with a belly flop or (if you will) back flop.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

Some good reference material:
-Zombie Survival guide by Max Brooks. Covers survival on water including the dangers of oil rigs.
-Dark Tide Rising series by John Ringo. The main characters survive by feeing on a sail boat. Later they scavenge from the boats of other like minded folks including rescuing other survivors in life rafts, and trapped in compartments of their boats by turned crew. Includes info on raiding large ships and even clearing infested cruise ships. They also eventually get into clearing costal areas and small islands. They also discuss submarines, many of which were deployed and thus quarantined when the plague hit.

Also consider LHA (landing Helicopter Assault Ship) or an LHD rather than air craft carriers. They are the size of a WW II air craft carrier, so much smaller than a super carriers. They are designed for helicopters and VTOL aircraft like Harriers and Ospreys. They also host a rather large compliment of Marines, so lots of combat gear, ammo, and guns. The LHD also has a well deck that can be flooded to deploy Marine landing craft such as LCAC ( huge hovercraft). They would be way more beneficial than a carrier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wasp_(LHD-1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_assault_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_H ... er_Assault

A carrier has a compliment of about 5 thousand people. LHD's can hold 1000 crew and 2,200 marines. LHA's and LHD would also contain more useable aircraft. You would need more helicopters and VTOL aircraft than Fighter Jets for example. Helo pilots and maintainers are also probably easier to come by than those qualified on F'A-18 Hornets.

I am not sure what the minimal crew size would be (if you could get enough people with the right skill set) but it would still make a good base if docked.

The answer to preventing zombies from climbing mooring lines are "rat guards". They are a metal cones placed on mooring lines with funnels facing towards the dock and prevent rats from getting onboard. It would also prove a difficult obstacle for a zombie to crawl over as well since the cone would spin them to the bottom and they could not reach the line on the other side. Maybe construct ones with a bigger diameter if needed. Only problem would be a special zombie of some kind possibly getting around the obstacle.
Last edited by wick on Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by say652 »

I like the barges for crops, tugs and freighter with shipping container houses.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

say652 wrote:I like the barges for crops, tugs and freighter with shipping container houses.


Barges can be found on major waterways, but you should stay away from the ocean with them, since they are generally not sea worthy.

Any large watercraft will also be inhabited. Either by like minded survivors scrambling aboard for safety or those that were at sea when the apocalypse hit, or by the living dead who somehow got aboard or from turned crew.

Lots of issues with clearing ships. I recommend reading Ringo, he goes into great detail on the challenges of clearing ships. Lighting is poor, 3D threat environment, boarding ships, bullet richochets are a big hazard, etc....
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

wick wrote:Barges can be found on major waterways, but you should stay away from the ocean with them, since they are generally not sea worthy.

Any large watercraft will also be inhabited. Either by like minded survivors scrambling aboard for safety or those that were at sea when the apocalypse hit, or by the living dead who somehow got aboard or from turned crew.

Lots of issues with clearing ships. I recommend reading Ringo, he goes into great detail on the challenges of clearing ships. Lighting is poor, 3D threat environment, boarding ships, bullet richochets are a big hazard, etc....

There are exceptions to the rule - some barges are often loaded aboard ocean-going ships for long-range transport. In maritime terminology they are known as "lighters" when they are meant for long-distance travel, and this necessitates a specific design methodology for the lighter itself, using a flat bottom and other simplified design features.[sup]1[/sup] Lighters are then loaded aboard larger ships using a concept known as LASH, or Lighter Aboard Ship.[sup]2[/sup] As a result, a LASH transport could theoretically be carrying numerous barges aboard, which they can deploy near the coast to provide disaster relief or perhaps to establish the infrastructure necessary to set up a base camp.

With that being said, I can conceive a scenario (Sourced from certain articles in The Rifter... :wink:) where during the Wave ships of all kinds were often quarantined at port, while in the USA the US Coast Guard and the US Navy established a national-level blockade of various ports and harbors stateside. Once during the "Great Recession" as it is often called by some IRL, the River Fal in the United Kingdom became an anchorage for merchant vessels that couldn't afford to cross the seven seas. During World War II it was also used as an anchorage for Allied military forces preparing for Operation Overlord, which is more commonly known as D-Day.[sup]3[/sup]

My point is that while some of the concepts mentioned here about large ships apply more to the oceans, they could be in similar situations closer to the coast. Even so, it would often be the case that while many ships would be taken out to sea in a zombie-driven panic, there would still be quite a bit of shipping stuck in ports around the world, which may be infested by large numbers of the living dead, so clearing these ships would provide a valuable resource for survivors needing a way out, or alternatively a way into lucrative opportunities, such as restoring maritime trade or engaging in naval warfare.

Concluding with that, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:

Sources:

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter_%28barge%29
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter_aboard_ship
[3]: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1304280/Fleet-mothballed-ships-Cornish-river-unlikely-tourist-attraction.html
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

So, they take the non-seaworthy barges and transport them as cargo on a seaworthy ship? That is not an exception, I still would not use flat bottom barges in the ocean. They may operate for short periods and in relatively calm weather in costal areas. But I am no expert in barges. It would be true that much shipping would be stuck in port. They may even be lootable, but are more likely to be infested due to it being a possible refuge or if the gangplanks were down.

As for ship deployments, depends a lot on how fast the outbreak occurs. At any one time there may be thousands of vessels underway. If the ports are closed then ships close to port can't even go to shore and are therefore isolated. If the outbreak occurs quickly and is quickly recognized many of those ships will remain uncontaminated. If it takes months after getting the disease to show signs of the disease there would be many plague ships.

Navy: at all times there are some U.S. Submarines and surface ships underway. They would be unlikely to bring those ships into port in order to keep the crew disease free. Ships could become infected if conducting rescue operations. Submarines would not be used for rescue operations and would remain submerged to wait out the disaster. Submarines can remain underway a significant period of time subject to requiring resupply of food or the need for repairs, they make their own air and water and count their fuel supply in decades. Larger, surface ships rely on period resupply, either in port or from other supply ships while at sea.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by SittingBull »

At least clearing ships is a touch easier. Clear the deck and either bring up or throw off the gang plank. Then you can make lots of noise on deck and draw out at least some of the undead inside the ship. As long as you get one, and if your playing DR let the zombie moan nice and loud and maybe hold it or disable it to where it can keep moaning, then any zombies inside or below deck should be coming up to answer the moan. Might not even have to kill them all, once on deck, you could just knock them over board and post a guard on the anchor chain.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

That may sound easy, but let us look at the difficulties.

How are you getting onboard ( I will focus on honest to goodness ships rather than yachts or smaller vessels)?
-Climbing a rope ladder up the side of the steel hull of a ship, laden with gear, would be an exhausting process with the threat of you falling into the water where all of you gear drags you down or there could be sharks or submerged undead.
-Going up the gangway of a ship in port may be easier but you are out in the open for every zed to see. And fighting while on the gangway would be a balancing act on many ships ( a cruise liner may have more stable walk ways IDK). too many zombies on the gangway could cause it to collapse and you would draw attention from both directions and be attack from the shore zombies and by the ship zombies on the other side. I have been on gangways to a carrier before , they have railings and are wide enough for about two people to use, but they are free floating and move to stay connected with the ship as it moves (trying keeping a carrier completely still even moored in port). Results may vary depending on the length and build of gangways for smaller vessels.
-Helicopters may be a viable method if there is a clear space to land or drop your team, but again you attract all kinds of attention with no easy escape route.
-Expect a greeting party if there are zombies on deck. There is very little cover when approaching over open water. By the time you get close every zombie that can be there will be there.
-Clearing the deck with gunfire before you board? Most ships are made of steel which is pretty good for causing bullets to ricochet. The bouncers could come back to hit you or even hole your fiberglass hulled sailboat or yacht.
-If the situation permits you could have luck with enticing the zombies to jump at you only to fall short into the drink. Undead zombies should lack the intelligence to wait for you to come aboard. They may not be able to crawl over the gunwale on some boats or get past barriers that prevent accidentally falling overboard. just beware of any that do hit your boat, since it could damage your craft or crew.

So, you made it aboard and cleared the deck? Now comes the hard part.
-With the power out, the interior compartments of ships are pitch black
-Adjustment to dim conditions. The reason pirates really wore eye patches was to quickly adjust to the light levels below deck. When they go below they flip up the eye patch whose eye is full dilated for dark conditions. This saves a few precious seconds that would be used for your eyes to adjust, which could save your life.
-3D environment: Working ships ( military, industrial, and commercial) have over head pipes, multi level catwalks, and lots of nooks and crannies. You have to be worried about being attacked from above and below in some areas. Engagement distances will be fairly close range.
-Ricochets: Working ships again are bare steel on the interior. Cruise ships may have more furniture and faux walls of other materials. These bouncers are even more dangerous because of the cramped passageways and short engagement ranges.
-Industrial hazards: Many vessels are floating industrial plants. Damage to the ship could cause fires, flooding, chemical exposures, explosions, radiation, etc... If you get on an Oiler and you smell fuel you had better not shoot or even strike a spark.
-Ships can be quite a maze inside. Compartments may trap zombies from reaching you when you first board the ship. You could open a door a horde of trapped zombies could rush through. There are also so many spaces that you may never be sure you got every zombie.
-Survivors may have been trapped in compartments as well. in some areas, such as store rooms, they may be able to last a long time, but not indefinitely. Finding survivors starved to death or who committed suicide, could take a toll on your teams sanity. Finding live survivors could also hurt your ability to salvage supplies from the vessel. Legally, you cannot salvage from a vessel with survivors. Although laws may have broken down with society, the ship's crew may not see it that way.

Probably the biggest hurdle would be having a large enough team to clear large vessels and to have enough of the trained personnel to run the ship if you make it a part of your fleet.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by say652 »

I would set a block and pulley lower a cable and haul up gear and people, no need to climb up a boat carrying stuff.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

wick wrote:So, they take the non-seaworthy barges and transport them as cargo on a seaworthy ship? That is not an exception, I still would not use flat bottom barges in the ocean. They may operate for short periods and in relatively calm weather in costal areas. But I am no expert in barges. It would be true that much shipping would be stuck in port. They may even be lootable, but are more likely to be infested due to it being a possible refuge or if the gangplanks were down.

As for ship deployments, depends a lot on how fast the outbreak occurs. At any one time there may be thousands of vessels underway. If the ports are closed then ships close to port can't even go to shore and are therefore isolated. If the outbreak occurs quickly and is quickly recognized many of those ships will remain uncontaminated. If it takes months after getting the disease to show signs of the disease there would be many plague ships.

Navy: at all times there are some U.S. Submarines and surface ships underway. They would be unlikely to bring those ships into port in order to keep the crew disease free. Ships could become infected if conducting rescue operations. Submarines would not be used for rescue operations and would remain submerged to wait out the disaster. Submarines can remain underway a significant period of time subject to requiring resupply of food or the need for repairs, they make their own air and water and count their fuel supply in decades. Larger, surface ships rely on period resupply, either in port or from other supply ships while at sea.

I'd think that lighters are only meant for long-distance travel when they're already on the boat. :wink: They are loaded aboard in or near the harbor. Such a topic aside, the response to the Wave would definitely keep thousands of ships at dock and maroon thousands more at sea. Earlier versions of Dead Reign discussed a massive armada of such ships traveling the world in an effort to survive. Eventually, they could have claimed some place, like Hawaii, as their new home port and headquarters after clearing out the islands of every zombie and cultist over there.

While discussing an interim navy, the blockade would definitely require substantial naval shipping and airpower to enforce it, but the quarantine is not the only part of the response. Foreign relations would be strained due to suspicion of bioterrorism, especially in times like these IRL, and nations would have to keep forces forward-deployed to secure their interests to ensure that rogue nations don't take advantage of the situation. As a result, this complicates things because after the dead rise and the world is lost, most of the people who can help would be stranded thousands of miles away from their homes. However, there would still be cooperation to attempt to find the source of the contagion and cure it - expeditions of scientists, often with military escort, would be traveling the world to find our what happened and how to fix it.

say652 wrote:I would set a block and pulley lower a cable and haul up gear and people, no need to climb up a boat carrying stuff.

Lifeboat cranes, for example, may be useful for purposes like this, all you need is to send a small team to prep it for use. My take is that they would use grapnels, zip lines, or something similar along with light equipment, but a helicopter might work too. :roll: But anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good weekend.

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by SittingBull »

wick wrote:That may sound easy, but let us look at the difficulties.

How are you getting onboard ( I will focus on honest to goodness ships rather than yachts or smaller vessels)?
-Climbing a rope ladder up the side of the steel hull of a ship, laden with gear, would be an exhausting process with the threat of you falling into the water where all of you gear drags you down or there could be sharks or submerged undead.
-Going up the gangway of a ship in port may be easier but you are out in the open for every zed to see. And fighting while on the gangway would be a balancing act on many ships ( a cruise liner may have more stable walk ways IDK). too many zombies on the gangway could cause it to collapse and you would draw attention from both directions and be attack from the shore zombies and by the ship zombies on the other side. I have been on gangways to a carrier before , they have railings and are wide enough for about two people to use, but they are free floating and move to stay connected with the ship as it moves (trying keeping a carrier completely still even moored in port). Results may vary depending on the length and build of gangways for smaller vessels.
-Helicopters may be a viable method if there is a clear space to land or drop your team, but again you attract all kinds of attention with no easy escape route.
-Expect a greeting party if there are zombies on deck. There is very little cover when approaching over open water. By the time you get close every zombie that can be there will be there.
-Clearing the deck with gunfire before you board? Most ships are made of steel which is pretty good for causing bullets to ricochet. The bouncers could come back to hit you or even hole your fiberglass hulled sailboat or yacht.
-If the situation permits you could have luck with enticing the zombies to jump at you only to fall short into the drink. Undead zombies should lack the intelligence to wait for you to come aboard. They may not be able to crawl over the gunwale on some boats or get past barriers that prevent accidentally falling overboard. just beware of any that do hit your boat, since it could damage your craft or crew.

So, you made it aboard and cleared the deck? Now comes the hard part.
-With the power out, the interior compartments of ships are pitch black
-Adjustment to dim conditions. The reason pirates really wore eye patches was to quickly adjust to the light levels below deck. When they go below they flip up the eye patch whose eye is full dilated for dark conditions. This saves a few precious seconds that would be used for your eyes to adjust, which could save your life.
-3D environment: Working ships ( military, industrial, and commercial) have over head pipes, multi level catwalks, and lots of nooks and crannies. You have to be worried about being attacked from above and below in some areas. Engagement distances will be fairly close range.
-Ricochets: Working ships again are bare steel on the interior. Cruise ships may have more furniture and faux walls of other materials. These bouncers are even more dangerous because of the cramped passageways and short engagement ranges.
-Industrial hazards: Many vessels are floating industrial plants. Damage to the ship could cause fires, flooding, chemical exposures, explosions, radiation, etc... If you get on an Oiler and you smell fuel you had better not shoot or even strike a spark.
-Ships can be quite a maze inside. Compartments may trap zombies from reaching you when you first board the ship. You could open a door a horde of trapped zombies could rush through. There are also so many spaces that you may never be sure you got every zombie.
-Survivors may have been trapped in compartments as well. in some areas, such as store rooms, they may be able to last a long time, but not indefinitely. Finding survivors starved to death or who committed suicide, could take a toll on your teams sanity. Finding live survivors could also hurt your ability to salvage supplies from the vessel. Legally, you cannot salvage from a vessel with survivors. Although laws may have broken down with society, the ship's crew may not see it that way.

Probably the biggest hurdle would be having a large enough team to clear large vessels and to have enough of the trained personnel to run the ship if you make it a part of your fleet.


Wasn't saying it would be a cake walk. I also didn't say that luring them out from below decks would get them all. I do think this would be the most viable way to get started on clearing a large ship.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

I was thinking that the salvage team would be on smaller ships or yachts and the vessel to be salvaged was the large ship.

Now thinking of it the other way, say taller or larger ship salvaging from a smaller ship. If your ship had a crane with enough reach you could be lowered down to the deck but would still face the problems of a horde of infested where you embark and since the decks are often steel, bouncers from firing at a downward angel. The bouncers would be even worse since all of the missed shots would hit the deck or superstructure.

You would need the crane's length because you do not want two ships getting too close together. Hundreds of tons of steel "bumping" each other could be disastrous. As water squeezes between the two vessels it accelerates faster than the water flowing along the outside of the ships, this causes the ships move towards each other. The Bernoulli affect IIRC. So if you are trying to be lowered on boat davits or rappel down the side you will have two crushed ships, possibly with both taking on water. This can be mitigated with large bumpers/fenders and attaching mooring lines but still risky depending on waves and weather, more feasible if cone in a harbor.

I am not bagging on people's ideas, but my suggestions on obstacles can be used to make ship salvaging a challenge or just more realistic in game. Even if the players have no nautical knowledge, I would warn them of the dangers if their characters do. Care should be taken least the group put themselves in a bad position that they cannot withdraw from.

Another issue I forgot about when combatting at sea is shooting from unstable platform. Even in calm seas firing to the shore the ship moves up and down. Now try this in rough seas. How about shooting from one ship to another, since both are moving. Definitely add "to hit" penalties based on the situation. Say -1 for shooting from a moored ship in a harbor in calm sea and weather to a land based target. Then add more negatives as the conditions get worse. A -1 to shoot a target in best conditions one the same ship. Navy SEAL snipers may have a special skill or ability to halve penalties. Taking time to aim would definitely help.
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

wick wrote:I was thinking that the salvage team would be on smaller ships or yachts and the vessel to be salvaged was the large ship.

Now thinking of it the other way, say taller or larger ship salvaging from a smaller ship. If your ship had a crane with enough reach you could be lowered down to the deck but would still face the problems of a horde of infested where you embark and since the decks are often steel, bouncers from firing at a downward angel. The bouncers would be even worse since all of the missed shots would hit the deck or superstructure.

You would need the crane's length because you do not want two ships getting too close together. Hundreds of tons of steel "bumping" each other could be disastrous. As water squeezes between the two vessels it accelerates faster than the water flowing along the outside of the ships, this causes the ships move towards each other. The Bernoulli affect IIRC. So if you are trying to be lowered on boat davits or rappel down the side you will have two crushed ships, possibly with both taking on water. This can be mitigated with large bumpers/fenders and attaching mooring lines but still risky depending on waves and weather, more feasible if cone in a harbor.

I am not bagging on people's ideas, but my suggestions on obstacles can be used to make ship salvaging a challenge or just more realistic in game. Even if the players have no nautical knowledge, I would warn them of the dangers if their characters do. Care should be taken least the group put themselves in a bad position that they cannot withdraw from.

Another issue I forgot about when combatting at sea is shooting from unstable platform. Even in calm seas firing to the shore the ship moves up and down. Now try this in rough seas. How about shooting from one ship to another, since both are moving. Definitely add "to hit" penalties based on the situation. Say -1 for shooting from a moored ship in a harbor in calm sea and weather to a land based target. Then add more negatives as the conditions get worse. A -1 to shoot a target in best conditions one the same ship. Navy SEAL snipers may have a special skill or ability to halve penalties. Taking time to aim would definitely help.

You really wouldn't need a larger ship with a crane to load onto and off of a smaller ship. During UNREP (An abbreviation for Underway Replenishment), ships would use line throwing guns, much like rifles in design, to send a number of lines across the sea to the other ship. Once they got the lines across, they would just hoist whatever they needed to get over there or back, much like a deployable zip line.

However, the Bernoulli Effect still comes into play, but by using lines rather than cranes with a much more limited reach, you make it somewhat easier on the ships involved at a itsy bitsy cost of a bit of difficulty and a heck of a lot of marksmanship. Therefore, the size of the ship doesn't matter as much as you think.

With that being said, I am not in the military, but I learned all about that and a lot of other things by watching a variety of documentaries on television that discussed all kinds of things about, for example, the US Navy, such as carrier battle groups (Reading is also a good way to catch up as well.) I cannot name them because I don't remember, but they are out there, and they can be a valuable resource to GMs in need of inspiration (Conversions not involved of course...). But anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

I have seen a few unreps but have never participated in one. They are fairly choreographed activities involving teams of well trained deck crew. They begin by shooting a line to the other ships with a M203 grenade launcher (in the past they would manually throw a line with a lead weight tied into a knot called a Monkey's Fist. Probably still used for smaller vessels).

The issue with shooting over a line to "zip" across of climb across is that you need a team on the other end to tie you off. Also zip lines are metal cables that cannot be shot across and I would be hesitant to try it with the line they shoot accross. The team on the other ship can haul in the line and drag across whatever lines or cabling is attached to the end of the line. Once you get your main cabling across and attached you can zip across or send supplies or whatnot. They even used to have baskets to ferry a single occupant across, but this killed a few people and once helicopters were more widespread the practice disappeared.

I suppose you may be able to get a light crew member to scurry across the line if you were to use a grapnel to hook the line. I would just hate to be that guy. Shimmying over hundreds of feet over a long fall to the ocean of ship's deck. And then when you get to the other side trying to haul over a thicker line/cable while fending off the zombies alone. You may be able to sneak over this way against cinema zombies if you can wait to go at night, but against DR zombies you will be noticed. Perhaps you can use small boats to distract them.
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whassupman03
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

wick wrote:I have seen a few unreps but have never participated in one. They are fairly choreographed activities involving teams of well trained deck crew. They begin by shooting a line to the other ships with a M203 grenade launcher (in the past they would manually throw a line with a lead weight tied into a knot called a Monkey's Fist. Probably still used for smaller vessels).

The issue with shooting over a line to "zip" across of climb across is that you need a team on the other end to tie you off. Also zip lines are metal cables that cannot be shot across and I would be hesitant to try it with the line they shoot accross. The team on the other ship can haul in the line and drag across whatever lines or cabling is attached to the end of the line. Once you get your main cabling across and attached you can zip across or send supplies or whatnot. They even used to have baskets to ferry a single occupant across, but this killed a few people and once helicopters were more widespread the practice disappeared.

I suppose you may be able to get a light crew member to scurry across the line if you were to use a grapnel to hook the line. I would just hate to be that guy. Shimmying over hundreds of feet over a long fall to the ocean of ship's deck. And then when you get to the other side trying to haul over a thicker line/cable while fending off the zombies alone. You may be able to sneak over this way against cinema zombies if you can wait to go at night, but against DR zombies you will be noticed. Perhaps you can use small boats to distract them.

Agreed. :-) Like how the M203 grenade launcher is used to shoot lines from one ship over to the other, one could use more rudimentary technology. Previously, I heard that they once made special shells for the M79 grenade launcher for use in climbing. One could conceive that if they get their hands on stuff like that a RHIB could be sent to the ship in question, while a team equipped with light gear could use the grapnels to climb onto the ship (Helicopters are a good alternative, but it may be harder to provide pilots, fuel, spare parts, etc.). In addition, an enterprising operation could even go into the field of invention and build their own custom rigs specifically for boarding ships, which can be equipped with design features to eliminate some of the problems listed here, such as the need to have a tie-up crew on the other ship. There's also another possible avenue of entry for a lot of ships - ships that carry passengers, and maybe those of a more commercial or industrial nature, often have doors near the waterline that can be opened. Yachts often use these doors to deploy small watercraft or to use as fold-down sundecks, porches, and such for recreational purposes. Entry teams could possibly get these things open and potentially eliminate the climbing issue altogether if all else fails, though an extensive knowledge of seamanship and information about how to enter the target ship safely would be necessary. But anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03 :mrgreen:
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wick
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by wick »

REBS carbon ladder and Carbon hook boarding video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Vj6nUz-Tk

And for taller ships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoJ3TUYVj8
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whassupman03
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Re: Boat Based Campaign

Unread post by whassupman03 »

Hello...

wick wrote:REBS carbon ladder and Carbon hook boarding video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Vj6nUz-Tk

And for taller ships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoJ3TUYVj8

I counter with this for anyone viewing this thread...

http://hhenriksen.com/

Hopefully this is useful. My way of thinking is that these items can be useful worldwide; not just in the Gulf Coast area mentioned earlier. :roll: And I'm willing to bet that enterprising individuals can rig up their own versions if they have the resources and know-how available. But anyway, please take care; thanks a bunch, and have a good night.

whassupman03 8)
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