New Nightbane books?

[Warwolf]

Not that I know of. I don't think they can find a writer to appease the mighty KS.

[Mike Taylor]

I don't think Kev will pull the plug on the line in the forseeable future, but right now there aren't any manuscripts on Kev's desk for Nightbane.

[Beelzebozo]

Or Rifter #7.

[Beelzebozo]

Thanks. I've been working on a sequel, with the fall of the Boogey-Man, and tying CoDD to Shadows of the South.

[Rayven]

I'm writing some new Talents for the Rifter right now. Don't know when they will get finished (I've got about three pages so far, and 3/4 of those are not fully flushed out yet). However, I have no intention of writing a whole book.

[Mike Taylor]

Any expansion on the Dreamstream would be great in my opinion. It's probably the hardest setting to write for because it's so open in terms of what things look like. I think some real crazy surreal settings and characters are in order.

EVen though it's for another game, I recommend The Book of Hod written by Thom Marrion for CJ Carella's WitchCraft and Armageddon games. Hod is the realm of dreams in those games.

[Guest]

I wouldn't mind PB compiling all the rifter NB stuff into an offical book for cannonization.

[Judas]

Rifts Dark Conversions is quite good as a NB sourcebook as it has all the BTS monsters in there, the BTS books might also be good for bane, but we will have to wait and see!.

Got use what we can!

[Beelzebozo]

Shadows of Light. The Tribes of the Moon are in two of the Rifters.

[Beelzebozo]

I suppose I could get behind reprinting the Rifter stuff in a book. More money for me, after all.

[Jesterzzn]

I suppose I could get behind reprinting the Rifter stuff in a book. More money for me, after all.

I might buy it

[Warwolf]

Shadows of Light. The Tribes of the Moon are in two of the Rifters.

I thought the tribes of the moon would be in the shadows of light?oh well...
Compalling of the NB materal from the rifters books in in book is a cool idea.

If they ever canonize Tribes of the Moon, I hope they alter the races slightly. I hated what they did with my brethren (in fact in most Palladium products)! What's the deal with the wolves getting the shaft? Not only are they pretty much characterized as nothing but evil man-eating monsters, they are functionally retarded on average. How could a race with that low of an IQ roll create a large and powerful criminal organization such as the one the Zarathain have?! IT MAKES NO SENSE!! Not to mention KS must be a cat person, have you ever noticed that the only real good weres (on average) are the panthers/jaguars? So how about a little more level playing field Kev? Wolves are one of the smartest and most human-like mammals in the entire kingdom (I can elaborate more on this if necessary). The way the were-versions are portrayed just seems to mimic the bum rap these amazing creatures have gotten for centuries. Hell, I would settle for a blurb about Zarath planning to secretly take back the tribe and turn them into the protectors of the human race in the coming wars. Oh, and lean the template more toward the type portrayed in Underworld: smart and deadly. Now there's an idea.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

If they ever canonize Tribes of the Moon, I hope they alter the races slightly. I hated what they did with my brethren (in fact in most Palladium products)! What's the deal with the wolves getting the shaft?

The stats were based off those appearing in the Rifts Conversion book.

How could a race with that low of an IQ roll create a large and powerful criminal organization such as the one the Zarathain have?! IT MAKES NO SENSE!!

The few people with brains go to the top in organized crime while the majority tend to be utter meatheads who are good for nothing except following orders.

The way the were-versions are portrayed just seems to mimic the bum rap these fictional creatures have gotten for centuries.

Fixed your typo there which goes a long way to answering your question.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I didn't liked the fact that one of the tribs were useing morden weapons and tech...in werewolf form!! Just doesn't feel like werewolves. The look like mutant animals to me. Just seams kinda lame.

TotM wasn't written to give people who like every werewolf film ever made something to drool over. It was made to represent a society of supernatural creatures that were not merely infected humans. That certainly "doesn't feel like werewolves" either. Given that fact, it is logically impossible that an entire society of sentient creatures would evolve alongside mankind without also using the same tools mankind was using to tame their environment.

Besides, it's not like the werecreatures have paws in their hybrid forms -- they have fully developed fingers. Why on earth would they choose NOT to use technology? It makes absolutely no sense for them to ignore the trappings of modern society unless they were luddites.

You are, of course, always welcome to change things in your individual campaign, but you'd need a far better reason than "it doesn't feel like werewolves" if your players want an explanation as to why their characters couldn't use these wonderful weapons and tools man has provided for them.

[Warwolf]

If they ever canonize Tribes of the Moon, I hope they alter the races slightly. I hated what they did with my brethren (in fact in most Palladium products)! What's the deal with the wolves getting the shaft?

The stats were based off those appearing in the Rifts Conversion book.

How could a race with that low of an IQ roll create a large and powerful criminal organization such as the one the Zarathain have?! IT MAKES NO SENSE!!

The few people with brains go to the top in organized crime while the majority tend to be utter meatheads who are good for nothing except following orders.

The way the were-versions are portrayed just seems to mimic the bum rap these fictional creatures have gotten for centuries.

Fixed your typo there which goes a long way to answering your question.

I understand that they were based off of the ones in the conversion book, that is why I included all Palladium weres in this rant.

I also understand the finer points of criminal empire structuring, but when on average, your smartest leaders would have the IQ of an average human...

No typo. Why so you think I said the "were version"? I was referencing the fact that wolves tend to be thought of as mindless, evil, murderers. Why not break the mold for once and show their more "human" side in this fictitious representation. With everything real wolves have done for mankind, why not transfer at least a small amount of that into this game and give them a less-limited capacity for human thought and emotion (beyond hate, anger, etc.)? If nothing else, wolves are extremely intelligent predators, why not reflect that in were-wolves as well? Not to mention I have issues (as stated above) with the were-jags being the only predominantly good and intelligent group. I love cats and all, predatory felines are much more anti-human than the average wolf. Let's tend toward the Wolfen rather than the Loup Garou or Man-wolf. Would it help if I said please?

I do appreciate you taking the time to try and address the issues in my tirade though.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I also understand the finer points of criminal empire structuring, but when on average, your smartest leaders would have the IQ of an average human...

That's pretty much what they have in real life. People like Gotti and Capone weren't geniuses -- they had a knack for a particular things (in this case organizing criminal activities), but in all other regards most were just average guys.

No typo. Why so you think I said the "were version"? I was referencing the fact that wolves tend to be thought of as mindless, evil, murderers. Why not break the mold for once and show their more "human" side in this fictitious representation. With everything real wolves have done for mankind, why not transfer at least a small amount of that into this game and give them a less-limited capacity for human thought and emotion (beyond hate, anger, etc.)?

1) Again, I was working withing the bounds of existing material

2) While it's nice to divert from the norm, part of game design is working with the perceptions of the audience. For instance, I don't think TotM would have gone over as well as it did if the werewolves were presented as the good guys and the werebears were the villains. The public's perceptions beyond the material will shape the context of that material, whether the writer wants to or not.

If nothing else, wolves are extremely intelligent predators, why not reflect that in were-wolves as well? Not to mention I have issues (as stated above) with the were-jags being the only predominantly good and intelligent group. I love cats and all, predatory felines are much more anti-human than the average wolf. Let's tend toward the Wolfen rather than the Loup Garou or Man-wolf. Would it help if I said please?

There were other "good guys" in the Tribes (the Borim, for instance), but few are framed in absolutes. Many of the Tribes were written so that, whether initially framed as good or bad guys, individuals could still work within that system and buck the stereotypes.

Ultimately, the material is there to give you the foundation to shape your own game. It is an attempt to be as appealing to the most people as possible, leaving it to those who disagree with it to take what's there and change it to suit their own particular desires.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Seeing as how it's being discussed so much and I figure it's been a while since this link saw the light of day here :

http://www.trustrum.com/Palladium/Totm/totm-index.php

[Beelzebozo]

Conan, you really have a way of bringing out the best in the rabid fanboys.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Conan, you really have a way of bringing out the best in the rabid fanboys.

It's all in how you shake your butt, dontchaknow.

[Beelzebozo]

Conan, you really have a way of bringing out the best in the rabid fanboys.

It's all in how you shake your butt, dontchaknow.

Now, looking at that pic in your sig, you've got me scared that you might start doing that.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Now, looking at that pic in your sig, you've got me scared that you might start doing that.

Accepting your fear is the first step to overcoming it.

[gaby]

I hope the Next Book will give real info about the Warlords?

Das ther Leader have stats?

Is ther still Organized crime Gangs control by Humans?

Tell me what do you think?

[Beelzebozo]

Okay, I think we're verging on incoherence here.

Firstly, as far as we can tell, there won't be a "next" Nightbane book. All of the writers of previous Nightbane material no longer work for Palladium, and Big Kev generally disapproves of the line since it doesn't have his "special" touch (much in the way New Jersey has a "special" smell). It might happen, but I wouldn't count on it - and if another book *does* happen, it might be something Big Kev got his naughty tentacles all over, robbing it of the flavor of the game.

The Warlords, I believe, had a little more information in SoL, unless I'm mistaken. Not a lot, and no, the national leader as such doesn't have stats. It seems to me that the Warlords don't have a centralized heirarchy or national leadership.

As far as organized crime, the Mafia appeared in one of the Rifters. I haven't read it, so I don't know how much power they have/don't have or any other details. Then there's the Magog-controlled Golden Posse from Nightlands, who seem to be the major rivals for the Warlords in the inner cities. Lilith, of course, has deals with some of the Asian gangs on the west coast (same book).

Human-dominated gangs? I don't know, actually. You can bet that the ones that aren't controlled by the Nightlords in some way (either via Cults of Night or otherwise) have some kind of magic or psychic firepower on their side; otherwise they wouldn't be able to contend with the Nightbane and other supernatural-led gangs.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

After looking at the picture in you sig, all I wonder is: What the frell is wrong with your couch?

You know, I've never been able to figure out why the couch appears to be defying the laws of a 3-dimensional universe in that photo.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I'm thinking it's propped up on something or perhaps the picture wasn't taken very levelly.

It was, though. You'll notice I'm framed properly and I know for a fact I wasn't leaning to the side.

[Warwolf]

Conan, you really have a way of bringing out the best in the rabid fanboys.

I take offense to that remark. I am neither a fanboy, nor am I rabid (so the anti-psychotics make me drool a bit...so what?).

That's pretty much what they have in real life. People like Gotti and Capone weren't geniuses -- they had a knack for a particular things (in this case organizing criminal activities), but in all other regards most were just average guys.

I'd like to see the file where you keep their IQ tests. Seriously though, I've already made my case about the intelligence of wolves. To portray were-wolves as semi-retarded man-eaters seems like a tremendous let-down (especially regarding the race they represent). Give me something my players can match their wits against...

1) Again, I was working withing the bounds of existing material

I understand that. However, the Loup Garou and Man-wolf were versions of the were-wolf and they didn't have the exact stats as the wolves in the CB1. Who's to say these couldn't be a more evolved form?

2) While it's nice to divert from the norm, part of game design is working with the perceptions of the audience. For instance, I don't think TotM would have gone over as well as it did if the werewolves were presented as the good guys and the werebears were the villains. The public's perceptions beyond the material will shape the context of that material, whether the writer wants to or not.

I didn't mean that the were-wolves needed to be exalted as paladin-like do-gooders out to save the human race. I would have gone with a group that saw it necessary to safeguard the race against complete annihilation if for nothing more than food-stock. The Baal are an unnatural invader that upsets the delicate equilibrium that had been the way of life since the birth of civilization. I would imagine the Zarathain would be smart enough to reserve their limited resources for the real enemy.

There were other "good guys" in the Tribes (the Borim, for instance), but few are framed in absolutes. Many of the Tribes were written so that, whether initially framed as good or bad guys, individuals could still work within that system and buck the stereotypes.

Ultimately, the material is there to give you the foundation to shape your own game. It is an attempt to be as appealing to the most people as possible, leaving it to those who disagree with it to take what's there and change it to suit their own particular desires.

I understand that, and that is the only reason that I did not fly into a complete and total rage against the articles. As it is, I feel that it could be done better (It has so much potential.). Rather than a cut and paste job made to fit with the different setting, a little more attention could have been paid to the ancient ties the weres supposedly have with humanity. Also, there should be a way for a PC to have a good-aligned were that isn't a drooling feral or a weird mutant. I also really like what was done with Zarath. I feel it would be feasible that he would be gathering like-minded weres (along with humans, nightbane, vampyrs, etc.) into his inner circle (without revealing his identity) to help fight the Baal on the side of humanity. After all, the humans can use all the help they can get. Granted, these are my opinions. However this is what these forums is all about. If nothing else, maybe I might succeed in injecting a little of my opinion into a rewrite for publication (though if TotM were ever canonized it would probably be yet another cut & paste job that Palladium has become notorious for). Here's to hoping.
_________________

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

snippage

Short answer to your comments:

Yeah, I had big plans for TotM. Plans that didn't necessarily gel with much of Palladium's design philosophy. For instance, the original pitch for the full TotM manuscript was based on involving the Vatican (among other things.) Some of what I had in mind ended up in the expanded material on my web site, as you can see in some of the info for the additional Tribes and expanded history/legends.

[Marcethus]

I hope the Next Book will give real info about the Warlords?

Das ther Leader have stats?

Is ther still Organized crime Gangs control by Humans?

Tell me what do you think?

The Brain Fry gang. in one of the rifters not sure of what one. But they are a group of psychic Humans.

[Mike Taylor]

I'm thinking it's propped up on something or perhaps the picture wasn't taken very levelly.

It was, though. You'll notice I'm framed properly and I know for a fact I wasn't leaning to the side.

Steve, how many years have we all been pondering the answer to this question?

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Steve, how many years have we all been pondering the answer to this question?

The short answer: wierd stuff happens when you have Cthulhu for a housemate. Learn to deal with it.

[Warwolf]

snippage

??? Is this supposed to be a pot-shot there Steve? Anywho. That is one of the big reasons I am wary about a Rifter submission. They pretty much get to do a chop job on your work and you have no say in the matter. Anyway, it's been interesting talking to you. Until next time.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

??? Is this supposed to be a pot-shot there Steve? Anywho. That is one of the big reasons I am wary about a Rifter submission. They pretty much get to do a chop job on your work and you have no say in the matter. Anyway, it's been interesting talking to you. Until next time.

Pot shot at who?

It's not a pot shot at anyone, just a truthful statement of what happened. My initial pitch was a LOT different (and, IMHO, better) than what was ok'd. Palladium's policy of avoiding real religions was very frustrating to write with in a world where horror is accepted as real, because it ignores the important social and ideological role that religion would obviously play.

In the first TotM draft, what ended up being Eclipse was actually a secret branch of the Vatican, and I had an entire write-up on how the Vatican had been constructed as a fortress against the supernatural (garlic and holy water in the brick mortar, holy runes carved into the underside of the bricks, etc.)

[Warwolf]

??? Is this supposed to be a pot-shot there Steve? Anywho. That is one of the big reasons I am wary about a Rifter submission. They pretty much get to do a chop job on your work and you have no say in the matter. Anyway, it's been interesting talking to you. Until next time.

Pot shot at who?

It's not a pot shot at anyone...

Umm...it was supposed to be a joke. My screen name being Warwolf, you posting my quote as "snip"... never mind.

I have to say though, with the right-wing screwballs running the country Palladium's policy is probably needed now more than ever. Religious zealots jump on the RPG-hating bandwagon already without Palladium publishing something about religion that would almost assuredly be mis-construed as Satanic or whatever.

Although it really this seems somewhat inconsistent considering Shadows of Light had the Slayers that were connected with the church didn't it?

[Beelzebozo]

Considering that the right-wing screwballs really *don't* run the country, Palladium's policy is outdated. White Wolf makes references to real religions all the time, as well as various d20 products like Testament involving Biblical themes. Palladium is, as usual, attempting to keep their products and the real world separate.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I have to say though, with the right-wing screwballs running the country Palladium's policy is probably needed now more than ever. Religious zealots jump on the RPG-hating bandwagon already without Palladium publishing something about religion that would almost assuredly be mis-construed as Satanic or whatever.

There are a LOT of games out that there right that delve very heavily into modern religions and catch no flak over that fact except from those nutjobs that take pot shots at rpgs in general. In fact, my company will soon be making a press statement about how we'll be working on one such game that is already on the market and revolves around God, angels, devils, so I can say, with all honesty, that such games draw no additional ire worth worrying about. The closest that comes to that are parents who react without so much as reading the books in much the same way as the religious right reacted to the release of Kevin Smith's "Dogma."

[Warwolf]

Considering that the right-wing screwballs really *don't* run the country, Palladium's policy is outdated. White Wolf makes references to real religions all the time, as well as various d20 products like Testament involving Biblical themes. Palladium is, as usual, attempting to keep their products and the real world separate.

Have you even heard some of the FCC suggestions lately?! Never mind, whatever, I'm not going to argue politics here. Personally, I live in the Bible Belt and have heard a few too many Bible-thumper rants on this subject to agree with either you or Trustrum on the matter. All it takes is one line of text being taken out of context to trigger a whole media crapslide. Just because it hasn't happened recently doesn't mean that it won't. What I was referring to is the ice is especially thin these days when it comes to putting anything out that derives material from any religion (just look at the controversy over Kingdom of Heaven). I am with you that the thinking is outmoded, but these are the times we live in.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Have you even heard some of the FCC suggestions lately?! Never mind, whatever, I'm not going to argue politics here. Personally, I live in the Bible Belt and have heard a few too many Bible-thumper rants on this subject to agree with either you or Trustrum on the matter. All it takes is one line of text being taken out of context to trigger a whole media crapslide. Just because it hasn't happened recently doesn't mean that it won't. What I was referring to is the ice is especially thin these days when it comes to putting anything out that derives material from any religion (just look at the controversy over Kingdom of Heaven). I am with you that the thinking is outmoded, but these are the times we live in.

The Bible belt does not represent the majority or most vocal demographic of the rpg market, however. It doesn't even represent a significant stressor upon rpg marketing strategies. The fact that you live there means it has more impact on YOU, personally, but that doesn't equate to it having a similar commonality with the global rpg industry. That would be like me saying the concerns of winter hazards I experience up here in Toronto makes clothings stores down in Florida stock more parkas.

As I said, there are a LOT of games out there right now that are heavily rooted in religious themes and they get no more flak over it than just about any other rpg. Take Armageddon by Eden Studios, for instance. God is directly mentioned. Angels and demons can both be played and are key to the game. Has Eden gotten any flak over it? Not more than any other rpg that uses violence.

[Warwolf]

All it takes is one line of text being taken out of context to trigger a whole media crapslide. Just because it hasn't happened recently doesn't mean that it won't.

You know, I hate having to repeat myself. Especially in a debate. This is all I'm going to say in the matter. Though it does amaze that I seem to have found someone just as stubborn as I am. My commendations on your hard head Trustrum.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

You know, I hate having to repeat myself. Especially in a debate. This is all I'm going to say in the matter. Though it does amaze that I seem to have found someone just as stubborn as I am. My commendations on your hard head Trustrum.

My point was, however, that just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it will, either. All we have to act on is our best judgement and the evidence up to that point. At this stage of things in the industry, the world seems to be content to let people make religious games.

[Warwolf]

At this stage of things in the industry, the world seems to be content to let people make religious games.

I hope you're right, but we shall see...

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I hope you're right, but we shall see...

Honestly, there are way too many religious oriented games that have been out for a long while to worry about a sudden change. Even Nightbane itself is full of allegory.

[Beelzebozo]

At this stage of things in the industry, the world seems to be content to let people make religious games.

I hope you're right, but we shall see...

Rampant paranoia is so entertaining.

[Jesterzzn]

At this stage of things in the industry, the world seems to be content to let people make religious games.

I hope you're right, but we shall see...

Rampant paranoia is so entertaining.

Only for the paranoid.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

At this stage of things in the industry, the world seems to be content to let people make religious games.

I hope you're right, but we shall see...

Rampant paranoia is so entertaining.

Only for the paranoid.

Hey, what are you trying to say? OMG, you're one of ... THEM!!!

[Warwolf]

Rampant paranoia is so entertaining.

You call it paranoia, I call it staying a few steps ahead of the men in black suits that are trying to steal my soul...

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Rampant paranoia is so entertaining.

You call it paranoia, I call it staying a few steps ahead of the men in black suits that are trying to steal my soul...

See, the tinfoil hat thing is all just a con to lure you into false security.


It's lining your underwear with tinfoil that will keep you safe.