Cloning 1+1 =Do we get a doppleganger

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Judas
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Cloning 1+1 =Do we get a doppleganger

Unread post by Judas »

Hey just watched the news and they were talking about human cloning and it raised a question so I thought I'd get your input on this one:

If I were to clone somebody as an infant:
1.Would a doppleganger manifest and appear in the nightlands to become the opposite of the clone
2.Would the existing doppleganger clone itself supernaturally
3. Would the doppleganger be the bane of both original & clone.
4.Would nothing happen at all?


So, what do you think, theories welcome?
:?
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Unread post by BookWyrm »

Hmmmm, would depend.......

Theory One: Too Many Twins
If the clone is an EXACT duplicate of the donor, then there is a chance (I'd give it a healthy 35%) that a Doppleganger would manifest along side the donor, reproducing amoeba-like once sentience is established. Then the standard Doppleganger rules apply. However, the Doppleganger of the clone has a shorter lifespan then the donor's Doppleganger (reduce by 25%), is impatient & hyper.

Theory Two: It's me...but NOT me
The Doppleganger vanishes from the Nightlands, taking the place of the clone upon sentience. Standard rules for the Doppleganger apply.

Theory Three: Maintain the balance!
The clone has no Doppleganger, the donor has his, and the Doppleganger in question tries to kill & replace either. Mayhem ensues when all three are viewed together.
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Sanctu
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Unread post by Sanctu »

Quoth Judas, "If I were to clone somebody as an infant..."

Do what now?

Do you mean... (beging assumption)

You have a person, Pat, who is a baby. Pat's parents were oppositely gendered, had sex, and had a baby.

You clone the baby. This involves a flesh sample from Pat, DNA extraction, implantation of that DNA into a human egg, and then placing the egg in a woman to come to term. You get another baby. So Pat has a sort of sibling/child, Terri, who looks just like Pat, but a younger version of Pat, as though they were identical twins separated temporally by a year or so.

(end assumption)

If that's what you mean, then Terri, our clone, is a human being now mutually exclusive of Pat. Much like identical twins, they share all the same gentics. We can study them in all sorts of ways to see if they are connected psychically in the same way one does with twins studies, but when it comes down to it, they are both separate and individual human beings.

So, the Doppleganger questions:

1. Would there be a Doppleganer of Terri?

This depends on when Dopplegangers come into being and why. Assuming Terri is "elegible" (ie. lives in a city big enough), I'd say yes, and it would happen at about the time one might think it woudl for anyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is some time early during full adulthood, is it not? (ie. late teens or early 20's.)

2. Would the existing Doppleganger clone itself supernaturally?

No. Pat's doppleganger would manifest whenever it would based on Pat and how Dopplegangers spring into being. Terri's Doppleganger would manifest whenever it would based on Terri and how Dopplegangers spring into being.

It is notable to mention that at infancy when we take the sample from Pat there is no Doppleganger yet of Pat in existance.

3. Would the doppleganger be the bane of both original & clone?

Uh... what? I can not even make sense of the question, honestly. Which Doppleganger are we talking about? Terri's?

From all I've read on Dopplegangers, each Doppleganger is based on the individual they are made from. These Doppleganger usually have an alignment opposing the human they copy -- far from always, but it is a pattern (see the chart on Doppleganger creation).

Are you asking this: "If we know Pat, and we know Pat's Doppleganger, and we know Terri, then do we know something about Terri's Doppleganger?" The answer to that is tricky. You could ask the question of identical twins, possibly separated at birth for a least a year or, and ask the same question. Or what of the child that looks and has the same personality traits as a single parent? You know the stories and have heard of it happening. So, if you took after a parent exactly in many, almost scary ways, how would that effect things?

[Edit...]

Oh! Bane! (Clue inserted.) No, it would not. The Doppleganger of Pat's would have Pat, and Pat only, as a bane. The same with Terri's Doppleganger: Terri and Terri only. They would have the same instinctual knowledge of their banes as any other Doppleganger, and this would not cross to the clones or vice versa.

[end edit]

My take, off the top of my head, is that there would be no correlation. Doppleganger alignments and how they vary from the humans they copy are actually somewhat random. Presumably most of the ones we encounter are picked by Nightlords (or their minions) for particular traits helpful to the Nightlords, so you tend to only see the [awakened] ones who's interest are aligned at least a little with theirs.

Were I to decide differently in my game, I'd eitehr be fudging for plot, or have a specific reason for it and woudl have worked out a pattern that my players may or may not ever notice.

4. Would nothing happen at all?

I think I've answered this question: Terri would or would not get a Doppleganger just as any other human would. The cloned part is a non-issue, as would someone else who was born from artifical inseminantion or whatever.
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Judas
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Unread post by Judas »

Bookwyrm, Sanctu, nice theories, Santctu you kinda lost me on your explanation but am always impressed by big paragraphs. :D
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
-- Matthew 7:15
"Every girl looks good in the dark."
--Faraday's Law# 99

"A myth can die, but a legend is forever"

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Unread post by Guest »

I would say that by cloning the child you would make it so that there is never a Dopl of eather child. Ether because it dose not manifest or both manifest and hate each other and kill each other......or maybe that is how it would happen....even thou it would just take a microsecond for the the Dopl's to negate eachother so in effect my staring premice would still be in effect becasue of the defacto effects.
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Unread post by Guest »

I would say that by cloning the child you would make it so that there is never a Dopl of eather child. Ether because it dose not manifest or both manifest and hate each other and kill each other......or maybe that is how it would happen....even thou it would just take a microsecond for the the Dopl's to negate eachother so in effect my staring premice would still be in effect becasue of the defacto effects.
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Unread post by Sanctu »

Judas, the short version of your questions about cloning: ignore the fact that you have a clone. Replace the word "clone" with "child" and re-ask whatever questions you have about their interaction and the involvement of Dopplegangers. No cross-bane issues, no more a question of Doppleganger formation than usual, etc.

That's my opinion, anyway. I think that people think too much of clones as objects or mythical creations (like Dopplegangers). They are really just people like everyone else. They get all of their genes from a single parent and so grow up to look exactly like them (sans scars and tatoos) and have the same gentic-based medical issues to deal with, but that's it.
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Unread post by Sanctu »

[quote="ash_wednesday"]since clones weren't born...[/quote]

These days, clones are born. Our tech isn't high enough to have artifical wombs. After you create your clone in egg form, you place it in a woman. It impeeds itself in the womb and she carries the clone to term just like a normal child.
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Unread post by Sir_Spirit »

ash_wednesday wrote:
Sanctu wrote:
ash_wednesday wrote:since clones weren't born...


These days, clones are born. Our tech isn't high enough to have artifical wombs. After you create your clone in egg form, you place it in a woman. It impeeds itself in the womb and she carries the clone to term just like a normal child.

Then it's not excatly a clone is it..more of a "test tube" baby..Besides I think in the nighbane setting they would have the tech to make a artifical wombs...


NO They might have the "magic" to do this but that's it.

Anyway, Dopplegangers only appear for some people, any people who arr born don't have them, so I dont' see why that would be some sort of criteria, especiallyif the "clone" is an important person(irregarless of what they person they are cloned from is).
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Unread post by Sanctu »

ash_wednesday wrote:
Sanctu wrote:These days, clones are born...

Then it's not excatly a clone is it..more of a "test tube" baby..Besides I think in the nighbane setting they would have the tech to make a artifical wombs...


(1) I'm not sure what your idea of a test tube baby is, here, and how it differs so radically from a clone. With a "test tube baby" (a highly non-specific term), people are generally refering to a kid born from a woman, but the fertilization process happened outside the womb and the proto-kid was then placed in the woman who would be carrying the child. In the cases I recall, you had eggs and sperm. These were not clones, but they were labeled test tube babies.

With the sheep you might have recalled reading about, you'd make the clone -- take egg, replace genetic material with that of a single parent so it grows as the clone of the parent -- and place in the womb of a sheep. And they are considered clones.

If you were cloning people, you'd do that same thing. Yet people do not seem to refer to clones as test tube babies. I'm not sure what they feel the distinction is, since the procedure involves making a viable zygot and implanting it in the womb of a living female. I'm left to guess that the term "clone" trumps "test tube baby".

(2) The tech in Nightbane is most likely not enough to have artifical wombs. It's just not that far in the future. And the expense would be extremely high, making it less likely that anyone would bother with one for making clones.
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Unread post by The Beast »

I think that the clone would have a dopplegangger clone! Because we would use technology to create our clones, the Nightlords, who reside in the Nightlands, on the other side of the mirrorwall, would use magic to clone their original dopplegangger.
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