..How do humans survive encounters with Hounds..

[MADMANMIKE]

..besides through poor GMing? With up to 300 .d.c., which is effectively twice that thanks to the half damage taken from normal weapons, how can a character who happens to be a normal human (ADA agents mainly) survive?

..As GMs, do you do SDC/HP by location?

..I'm getting ready to start my group on a Nightbane campaign, and only one of them will be a Nightbane; another will some sort of psychic, and the other two will be an Epsilon trooper and a former FBI ADA agent.

..Short of special weapons, even a small squad of Hounds will tear them to shreds long before they run out of ammo...

..How do you play?

-Mike <8[

[MADMANMIKE]

Running away a lot. Using ambushes, traps, and nuclear weapons.

..That's what I figured. I'm afriad I've been so easy on my players that they won't take the hint that they're outguned and are likely to get killed....

..Oh well, dem's da breaks...

-Mike <8[

[MADMANMIKE]

you Talismonger. Ie . Give them magical weapons to kill hounds.
Enchant weapon spell is pretty common and they can get fresh weapons which are enchanted to kill hounds.


As for them avoiding getting killed... Parry/Parry/parry!
Most of the NB combat with hounds will be melee.

Course in my games Hunters use Darkblade Crossbows...
and generally . Give them an exit route. Be it an active Portal, a runaway vehicle, or an enemy faction interceding on their behalf.


as for Damage by location.. It can work just up the percentiles so it round up to 250% otherwise it's very fatal.

..Parrying supernatural strength without the same incurs great penalties in my game...

..Yeah, the percentages don't add up to the total, they're usually much higher, same as with Rifts Armor. And a way out.

..I'd already started planning to introduce an NPC mage, but at the beginning it needs to be as gritty as can be. The one who'll end up psychic has never played a Palladium game before, let alone heard of them, so I have an opportunity to really lay this on someone who won't know what to expect.

-Mike >8]

[Mike Taylor]

The Hounds and Hunters were always meant to be something that one ran away from in my old game. The only time the party ever won against Hunters was when they used long range firepower and a fast moving Humvee keep out of the reach of their supernatural pursuers. However, the heavy gunfire and reports of a speeding vehicle did also draw the attention of the local sheriff's department, which they should have been trying to avoid.

[MADMANMIKE]

..Okay, looking over it again, it's not as bad as I thought;

..Using the damage allocation tables from The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons pg.17, a randomly rolled 5th level hound came up with the following stats:

HOUND 5th level
Perception: 0/4/10/13
APM:7
S:+3 P/D:+1 R:+3 Innit:+2
Save vs. Magic/Psi:+3
AR:13
SDC-Body(100)
Hit Points-Body(21)
SDC-Head:(48 )
Hit Points-Head:(10)
SDC-Legs Each:(14)
Hit Points-Legs Each:(3)
SDC-Arms Each:(2)
Hit Points-Arms Each:(8 )
SDC-Hands Each:(2)
Hit Points-Hands Each:(1)
Darkblade Spear: 6D6+13!!!(19-49)

..Additional from the same book, I simplified the Random Hit Location Table:

Random Hit Location:
01-08 Foot
09-15 Hand
16-20 Head
21-30 Arm
31-80 Main Body
81-95 Leg
95-97 Neck
98-00 Groin

..And I ruled that groin hits are critical off the main body, and neck hits are critical off the head (but both are an additional -2 to hit, so a called shot of 14 is needed to hit). So a called shot (short burst) with a .45 Mac-10 would do 4D6x2, use 6 rounds, and require a roll of 13 or higher (WP +1 burst included) to successfully inflict 8 to 48 points of damage to a Hounds head, enough on a good roll to take the one above down in two attacks, or just one if the weapon is Charmed or Enchanted.

..I'm considering a new random hit table for missing on a called shot, based on the target of the shot.. I think it's more likely that missing a called shot to the head is going to miss the target entirely than it is to hit the main body. The table would give a greater chance of a critical neck strike though, so it could help the players in the end..

..Comments? Suggestions?

-Mike >8]

[Specter]

I don't see parrying being a good option for normal humans since hounds tend to be much faster than a human and the hound needs just one hit to maul a man while the man needs many to have a hope of taking the hound down. Sure, a bane can kill a hound in melee, but a single one against a group isn't going to come out too well either.

I had one Nightbane who simply demolished hounds for breakfast. He would attack packs of them for kicks and had gotten far too good at killing them. Tactics. Pure and simple. Don't trick them out with magical weapons. They would have chosen a different character class if they had wanted magical weapons. Let them have explosives, heavy weaponry, grenades, vehicles that can outrun hunters. Then let them take the fight to the man.

[Specter]

And, now I want to play as an abandoned vampire again. They are nearly human and I killed a nightbane with a dagger, and the poor guy only got two swings in on me, and a spilled gut for his trouble.

[Jefffar]

The fundamental problem with this is: Hounds are not supposed to be used against humans in the game.

Look at it. The Hounds are designed for one thing, killing supernatural critters. Their body is built for it and their senses are programmed for it. Against even sizable groups of humans, a lone hound is ridiculous overkill in combat.

The Hound is the Battle Tank of the Nightlords.

So how many GMs would set a group of typical characters up agaisnt a battle tank?

My answer is only the ones who like killing players.

In my games, human PCs won't encounter a hound unless they go looking for one. Instead they will find themselves dealing with Dopplegangers and Hollow Men.

Save the hounds for the big bad players (Nightbane and Guardians).

[Specter]

Personally I believe a group of humans could take on a group of hounds if they have the right information. Since the hounds can't sense them they could spy on them and lure them into traps. An alley way rigged to explode and fall inward on it's self. Or, just dumpsters filled with C-4... or Snipers on a roof top. If you can get any enemy in an extreme tactical disadvantage you can win. Or, you can always run...

The team mentioned in the first post could have a lot of fun with hounds. Have the Nighbane member lure hounds into an alley way. Have a rope ladder hanging down and pull him up. And, opend up with a mini gun and napalm.

[Mike Taylor]

The team mentioned in the first post could have a lot of fun with hounds. Have the Nighbane member lure hounds into an alley way. Have a rope ladder hanging down and pull him up. And, opend up with a mini gun and napalm.

Yeah, but not everyone has access to a mini-gun or napalm.

[Jefffar]

Yeah, it's rare for my PC groups of humans to have anything more potent than automatic rifles and the occasional grenade launcher or LAW.

[GhostKnight]

Enchanted machine guns. Full auto. Stay out of melee range. Strategy over tactics (plan ahead rather than make it up as you go).

[Specter]

Alright granted most characters shouldn't be able to find a fully functional mini-gun. But, it wouldn't be impossible for military not to mention CIA and the what not couldn't find/steal one, and enough ammo to last a few days. How about the .50 calliber sniper rifles used by the NAVY SEALS. How many heads shots could a hound survive from one of those?

[Jefffar]

Well, I don't know about the head shots, given the unusual nature of hounds, their head might just be there to keep their manes from falling off.

[Jefffar]

Like I said, the Hounds are tanks and really should only be engaged with anti-tank levels of firepower and some clever planning.

This is why I don't put human PCs against hounds usually. There are times I will use a hound for dramatic impact (ie when I think the PCs should run scared rather than stand and fight) but I try to keep it down because I loose a lot of PCs to foolish charges that way.

Then again, against a Nightspawn team, I hit them with hounds every plausible oppourtunity.

[Reagren Wright]

Hounds vs Humans means plenty of dead humans. Heck, I've had
five PC Nightbane charcters completely wasted by four Hounds.
And if your using called shots against Hounds, I just don't see it
happening. These guys are described as being close to golems.
I don't see them being effected by called shots because I don't
see them bleeding, and a groin shot Hounds are supposedly
made by somekind of magic used by the Nightlords, they don't
reproduce and make babies. To put it simply, Humans meeting
Hounds means the humans run very fast, tossing NPC in the way
to slow them down enough to escape.

[Specter]

Somebody needs to come up with a cool system for running... make it more interactive like a combat round. Instead of simply running away and doing simple things to slow down your chaser... it would be awesome if someone could make a running system. Have special moves for getting away like dunk and weave. Opponents suffer a -2 penalty to hitting someone dunking and weaving. Shoulder roll... Sliding down railings... ect. The city could be turned into a literal playground for agile runners.

4 hounds took out 5 nightbane!!!!!!!!! Whoa! I once had a Nightbane who took out 6 hounds and 2 hunter at nearly the same time. And, the better part of an industrial play ground. Of course he had an unusually high PS,and razors, he took out a hound after only about 3 hits.

[Specter]

Napalm and explosives can be made with things you probably have laying around your house. Don't know if there are copies of the Anarchist's Cookbook flying around Nightbane Earth, but there almost has to be something like it. It would be safe to say most Epsilon/Special Forces soldiers know how to make improvised explosives and booby traps. Same goes for most Nightbane in the Resistance.

For some reason, a Hound, covered in flaming napalm, still coming forward to rip a character in half is disturbing. And pretty funny.

Yes, it is... Until the dumpsterapult get's it's bead from above.

[MADMANMIKE]

..I thought there was a familiar cynicism to that post, then I saw the sig.

..The setting is stacked against normals, the rules are the same as any other Palladium game.

..It's all about choice. As I understand it, Kev's BTS 2E game at origins let a normal human (a man in his 80's if I'm not mistaken) character shine, when he took out the main bad guy with a ball point pen to the throat.

..Sure, nowhere in the books does it say that a ball point pen to the throat is a kill, but then that's common sense, isn't it?

..My point is, reading between the lines makes the game much richer and enjoyable, and can let a group of normals get through some heavy encounters relatively unscathed.

..Maybe I need to make up some luck rules to quantify defying the odds....

-Mike >8]

[Specter]

After thinking about it... I think I'll post some of my running ideas in the GM forum, and hopefully someone else can come up with a good system for running. Because frankly I've seen so many action packed escape scenes in movies and there is no way to show these scenes a la RPG without the GM just describing the escape.

[Specter]

el bobbio... my suggestions where for the express purposes of taking out hounds. Not normal role playing experiences. There is no way for a normal human to survive without running, or having serious martial arts training.

[Shadow_Mage]

Use weights & Steel Cables to make Bolas. A wonderful weapon that is used far too infrequently. Yes, I know they have Suernatural PS, but the point is not to hold them forever, just to slow them down. You might add vials of superglue to the weights.

Then use:

1 bicycle innertube (or super-duper Squirt Rifle) filled with Bleach

1 Bicycle innertube (or super-duper Squirt Rifle) filled Amonia

When these cleaning products mix, you get Chlorine Gas. If he Hounds can't breathe, they can't run or fight.

Similarly, moltov cocktails can add to the fun.

An earlier post refered to them as Tanks. So, fight them like Tanks. Impair their mobility. Oil slicks can be handy. If using a prepared escape route, something as simple as greasing top & bottom stairs can create a nice little mess.. especially if there is a mob chasing you.

If you are a regular Human, you don't fight a hound by trying to outmuscle them, you out think them. You use your strength to find& exploit their weaknesses

[Specter]

Hounds don't breath. The sniffing sound is just a supernatural function sniffing out the supernatural.

[LunarYoma]

..besides through poor GMing? With up to 300 .d.c., which is effectively twice that thanks to the half damage taken from normal weapons, how can a character who happens to be a normal human (ADA agents mainly) survive?

..As GMs, do you do SDC/HP by location?

..I'm getting ready to start my group on a Nightbane campaign, and only one of them will be a Nightbane; another will some sort of psychic, and the other two will be an Epsilon trooper and a former FBI ADA agent.

..Short of special weapons, even a small squad of Hounds will tear them to shreds long before they run out of ammo...

..How do you play?

-Mike <8[

I suggest have someone take sharpt shooting & long range weapons. Use armor piercing weapons or have the spell "Enchant weapon" cast on it.

For close range use sub machine guns/rapid fire weapons with armor piercing rounds or have the spell "Enchant weapon" cast on it.

[Specter]

So, what being blessed by a priest doesn't get bad assed against things connected to the dark. Blessed bullet aren't uber powerful, but pack a little more wallop. Can the fuel for a flame thrower be blessed, and if so are the flames then holy flames of burnination?

[Zenvis]

The best comparison that I could give for a human to survive the attack from the hounds is watch a Preditor Alien or Terminator movie. Humans are clever enough to survive.

[G]

As mentioned:
-This is supposed to be a horror game
-Hounds are not supposed to be easy to kill by normal humans
-Clever & Prepared humans will survive, MOST will not...

So:
-Let them see a whack of people get killed easily by hounds.
-The PCs can be taken to the nightlands as slaves. This would setup a nice rescue scenario for the Nightbane & provides a rich backdrop.
-The PCs might surprise you, its been known to happen, Ex. the bane might melee the bad guys while the rest snipe
-Keep a NPC around to get killed & provide escape or advice
-There are others fighting, they can get help (weapons/NPCs) or provide help in larger battles
-Too many witnesses could cause the bad guys to retreat or be recalled.
-In the end, let each of the PCs do what they do best... I wouldnt give them all magic weapons just to keep them alive if thats not the basis of their character concept. I would give the two special ops types cool weapons if they befriend/join a faction - which as a GM you should work in anyways, factions are a good RP element in this horror game.

[Sir_Spirit]

couldn't many of the humans also be mages? this would help alot .

[MADMANMIKE]

..Nobody with a brain is helpless. That's the point.

..RPG's are a hobby most frequented by people with better than average IQ's. In my day we were called Geeks and Nerds. Any Geek or Nerd worth his pencil protector could think his way through a situation like a horde of hounds closing in on them.

-Mike >8]

[Specter]

when I play as a human I usually am the joe schmoe that gets stuck in the weirdest of situations. Personally I think playing the "weak" characters can be more fun then playing a super strong character (not just physical, but magical / psionics)

That's cool... Your dead... but it's still cool.

[Specter]

..Nobody with a brain is helpless. That's the point.

..RPG's are a hobby most frequented by people with better than average IQ's. In my day we were called Geeks and Nerds. Any Geek or Nerd worth his pencil protector could think his way through a situation like a horde of hounds closing in on them.

-Mike >8]

Yeah, and seeing as Hounds can't "smell" non-supernatural... it's like their flying blind against humans that have had any amount of time to plan.

[MADMANMIKE]

when I play as a human I usually am the joe schmoe that gets stuck in the weirdest of situations. Personally I think playing the "weak" characters can be more fun then playing a super strong character (not just physical, but magical / psionics)

That's cool... Your dead... but it's still cool.

not all problems require battle.... depending on the GM that is

That's true, but if he's doing Nightbane right there are going to be a *LOT* of problems that do require battle.

..Opinion.

-Mike >8]

[Specter]

Communication and being able to split up while still staying in touch is like rule number one for many games such as shadowrun. And, if your playing an all human team communication is key.

[Sanctu]

Most of the NB combat with hounds will be melee.

So, you have asked for advise on humans killing -- or at least surviving attacks from -- Hounds, and yet you've made things even more difficult for them that the game did? That seems rather off to me.

After reading much of this, I have to agree with most of what G said. Have red shirts to deomstrate the deadliness of the encouter and let them run, have them get captured instead of killed (Nightlords and Hounds and such kill Nightbanes without hesitation or question... but not necessarily humans), etc.

Personally, I'd question the whole "running a Nightbane campaign with only one Nightbane and a bunch of psychics," myself. What's the point, exactly? And if you have to do special things and and help the players along to survive hound attacks, are you missing the whole point and feel of the game?

This isn't to say that you shouldn't do it. You can come up with a great campaign for it. But the simple answer to your inital question is that humans don't survive Hound attacks -- at least not human who are "normal" in even the vaguest sense. If they were some specially created characters who were ment to deal with this sort of thing, then maybe. You know, like maybe a Sword Bearer, a sorceror who specialized in "kick supernatural critter butt" stuff somehow, a Buster equivelant, that sort of thing. But that doesn't sound like the case with your players.

Hounds are designed to be nearly unkillable things for humans, able to slaughter whole platoons without breaking a sweat (literally). You should be including them in your human-centric party either not at all, or only as a force that they have no hope of fighting against at all on their own without a really good plan and maybe some equiptment they've grabbed or improvised.

The easy part of this: Since you have humans, your hounds won't sniff them out. They might suspect something is up with them, or sense that they are being "watched" with Sensitive powers from time to time, but for the most part, our human shoudl either be discovering the Hounds, orf perhaps avoiding them. Should the campaign move into the Nightlands, our heros could pretend to be unawakened Dopplegangers. Or at some point our herps could try to come off as awaken Dopplegangers to bluff their way out of something shoudl a Hound come sniffing... although I'm unsure of how well that would work on Earth. The possibilities are vast here, but the theme is, usually, that the Hounds are to be skirted, avoided, maybe watched, etc., but not fought on a regular basis.

The hard part: there is a Nightbane in your party. The Hounds will sniff him out eventually, and many even trace him back to human friends who help him in comabt and who die real nice and scream so aluringly. This is where you can have any brave human NPC's get cut down in a couple of rounds, or loose a PC or two. It's a place where the Nightbane in the party can get to feel just why all of the other Nightbane tend to not stick around anywhere for any length of time, or with anyone they truly care about for fear of them being mulched when the Hounds come after him. It's a palce where the PC's can see just how dangerous these things are, and maybe even note how easily the Nightbane deals with them compaired to mundane weapons.

A Nightbane game with mostly humans calls for a different type of game than one with all Nightbane. You can't fall back on the "kill some Hounds every week" sort of thing, generally. It calls for a game of more role-playing, stealth or espionage, and planning. Just saying, "these people are smart geeks and should be able to figure out how to use the stapplers and dumb waiter in the room to deal and succeed in combat" falls a little flat, and misses some of the opportunity for for a potentiall far better campaign.

[GaredBattlespike]

We had scrapped a group of four (4) Hounds with no fatalities amongst our own. Set up. We know the local Hounds patrol route from using hidden cams(cannot sense non-magic/supernatual tricks). Then plotted ambush along route at a 4-way intersection in a very,very bad part of Boston (The 'Rox). As the Hounds came up from the western road, the guys in the SE corner popped up and hosed with 14.5 mm HMG's and a grenade launcher . When the Hounds rushed towards them, they dropped down pre-arrainged drop-chutes (Ex-Construction Worker turned Special Forces!) and the guys at the NW corner opened up with thier firepower. When the Hounds ran to kill the new group, they too dropped out/down. As the Hounds closed to the NW the NE crew popped up. Then the SW crew after that. Finally, the SE crew had climbed back up to their former positions (simple ladders)to start all over again. Stupid Hounds are lost without a Hound Master to tell 'em what to do.

[Jefffar]

Nice . . . how'd you get the heavies? Especially the 14.5?

[Specter]

Hound patrols are in my games all the time... almost always after dark. Usually hounds never show up in the day time in my games and the patrols wouldn't exactly be in the open. Though I could see a strategically placed camera picking them up. If someone wanted to play a human character... then they would automatically get some kind of contacts or special equipment to try and make the playing field more even.