Nightprince Illusion Size

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filo_clarke
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Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by filo_clarke »

So, I am using a Nightprince as a villain, and I have a question about the size of his illusions.

It says that the size of the illusion is 10 cubic feet per level of experience, but only 0.3 cubic meters per level of experience. Does this mean that a Nightprince that uses the British Imperial measurement system is 10 times stronger than one that uses the Metric System?

Also, this is an extremely small area. A first level Nightprince can only create an illusion that is a 2.1-foot cube (or a 1-foot cube, if he happens to use the Metric System). A 7th level Nightprince, using the British Imperial System can only create an illusion that is a 4-foot cube (using the Panorama ability, this cube only increases to 5.2 feet in size). Does he create the illusion around his enemy's head to achieve the desired effect?

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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Shark_Force »

10 cubic feet (for example: 5 x 2 x 1) not a 10 foot cube.

1 cubic meter is actually something along the lines of 36 cubic feet. 0.3 cubic meters is not a precise conversion, but it isn't completely out of the ballpark either. in fact, 0.3 cubic meters is a bit more than 10 feet. closer to 11 really.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by filo_clarke »

I think you and I have different opinions on what 0.3 cubic meters looks like. As per my example above:

10 cubic feet is a box roughly 2.1 feet on each side. But 0.3 cubic meters is a box that is only 1 foot on each side (again, roughly).

I guess what I am really trying to determine is if this size was actually meant to be:

a) 10 cubic feet, per level
b) a 10 foot cube, per level.
c) a 10 foot radius, per level
d) something else entirely

The power talks about making an illusory forest... but unless the illusion can be concentrated around an enemy's head, the sizes that we are talking about simply don't reflect this.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Glistam »

Palladium almost never correctly words two dimensional or three dimensional areas. I would suspect in this case, the intent was a size of 10ft×10ft×10ft per level.

You would construct the illusion around the person if you wished to "fool" them into seeing a large area. Remember that the area can be doubled for the "large panorama" effect. Also the range for "seeing" the illusion seems to be the range of sight. So you could make a room or an entire floor of a house resemble a thick jungle, and everyone who opens the door or looks in through a window will see it.
Last edited by Glistam on Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Shark_Force »

filo_clarke wrote:I think you and I have different opinions on what 0.3 cubic meters looks like. As per my example above:

10 cubic feet is a box roughly 2.1 feet on each side. But 0.3 cubic meters is a box that is only 1 foot on each side (again, roughly).

I guess what I am really trying to determine is if this size was actually meant to be:

a) 10 cubic feet, per level
b) a 10 foot cube, per level.
c) a 10 foot radius, per level
d) something else entirely

The power talks about making an illusory forest... but unless the illusion can be concentrated around an enemy's head, the sizes that we are talking about simply don't reflect this.


no, you're doing something wonky with your conversion.

a meter is *roughly* 3.3 feet. a cubic meter is therefore 3.3 ^ 3 cubic feet, or close to 36 cubic feet.

10 cubic feet are therefore 10/36 of a cubic meter (more or less), or 0.27 repeating cubic meters, which rounded to a single decimal place is 0.3 cubic meters.

so, it really is supposed to be 10 cubic feet. not a 10 foot cube, not a 10 foot radius.

which is *really* quite unfortunate, because i for one have never been very good at envisioning what 10 cubic feet look like, nor do i believe i've met very many people who have, but i do a pretty decent job understanding what a cube 10 feet on every side looks like, and suspect most people have a fairly easy time imagining that kind of space.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Tinker Dragoon »

filo_clarke wrote:It says that the size of the illusion is 10 cubic feet per level of experience, but only 0.3 cubic meters per level of experience. Does this mean that a Nightprince that uses the British Imperial measurement system is 10 times stronger than one that uses the Metric System?


No. The stated volumes are equivalent (approximately). Rounded to three decimal places, 10 cubic feet is about 0.283 cubic meters.

filo_clarke wrote:I think you and I have different opinions on what 0.3 cubic meters looks like. As per my example above:

10 cubic feet is a box roughly 2.1 feet on each side. But 0.3 cubic meters is a box that is only 1 foot on each side (again, roughly).


Incorrect. 0.283 cubic meters arranged symmetrically would form a box 0.657 meters on each side, which is about 2.154 feet.

filo_clarke wrote:The power talks about making an illusory forest... but unless the illusion can be concentrated around an enemy's head, the sizes that we are talking about simply don't reflect this.


10 cubic feet per level is the normal size for a generic illusion. The panorama is specifically stated to affect an area twice the normal size. Since it does say "area" instead of "volume," I'm inclined to think that this means the panorama would be 20 square feet per level, as it really doesn't work in cubic units. 20 cubic feet per level would limit it to a box 6.694 feet on each side at 15th level, or about the size of a small tool shed.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by filo_clarke »

Tinker Dragoon wrote:No. The stated volumes are equivalent (approximately). Rounded to three decimal places, 10 cubic feet is about 0.283 cubic meters.


Yep, you're right, I did something wonky with my conversion.

10 cubic feet per level is the normal size for a generic illusion. The panorama is specifically stated to affect an area twice the normal size. Since it does say "area" instead of "volume," I'm inclined to think that this means the panorama would be 20 square feet per level, as it really doesn't work in cubic units. 20 cubic feet per level would limit it to a box 6.694 feet on each side at 15th level, or about the size of a small tool shed.


So with this example, the Nightprince's illusions are pathetically small, unless he uses the "Panorama" ability, at which point it explodes into a gigantic area of effect. It almost seems like they would never use their lesser illusion abilities, until they reached an extremely high level, due to the restrictive size.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Tinker Dragoon »

filo_clarke wrote:So with this example, the Nightprince's illusions are pathetically small, unless he uses the "Panorama" ability, at which point it explodes into a gigantic area of effect. It almost seems like they would never use their lesser illusion abilities, until they reached an extremely high level, due to the restrictive size.


I don't know why you think it's so small. The average Night Prince is 5th to 8th level, which allows a size of 50 to 80 cubic feet for normal illusions. This is more than sufficient to create illusions of people, spells, objects, and many kinds of monster.

Alternatively, you could always substitute the powers of the Psi-Illusionist (Shadows of Light, p. 78) or Illusionist (Palladium Fantasy: Old Ones, p. 18), and just change the I.S.P. costs to P.P.E.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Glistam »

Tinker Dragoon wrote:
filo_clarke wrote:So with this example, the Nightprince's illusions are pathetically small, unless he uses the "Panorama" ability, at which point it explodes into a gigantic area of effect. It almost seems like they would never use their lesser illusion abilities, until they reached an extremely high level, due to the restrictive size.


I don't know why you think it's so small. The average Night Prince is 5th to 8th level, which allows a size of 50 to 80 cubic feet for normal illusions. This is more than sufficient to create illusions of people, spells, objects, and many kinds of monster.

Alternatively, you could always substitute the powers of the Psi-Illusionist (Shadows of Light, p. 78) or Illusionist (Palladium Fantasy: Old Ones, p. 18), and just change the I.S.P. costs to P.P.E.

50 cubic feet creates a sphere with a radius of only 2.29 feet (or a 4.58 foot diameter). It is a square box where each side is 3.66 feet in length.

80 cubic feet creates a sphere with a radius of only 2.67 feet (or a 5.34 foot diameter). It is a square box where each side is 4.3 feet in length.

When you "double" those cubic foot values for the panorama ability, you will not double the base dimensions. That 100 cubic feet is a sphere with a radius of 2.88 feet (diameter of 5.76 feet) or a square where each side measures 4.64 feet in length/width/height. That 160 cubic feet is a sphere with a radius of 3.37 (diameter of 6.74 feet) or a square where each side measures 5.42 feet in length/width/height.

That's why the OP thinks the cubic footage is so small for the panoramic ability. Because it is.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Tinker Dragoon »

Glistam wrote:50 cubic feet creates a sphere with a radius of only 2.29 feet (or a 4.58 foot diameter). It is a square box where each side is 3.66 feet in length.

80 cubic feet creates a sphere with a radius of only 2.67 feet (or a 5.34 foot diameter). It is a square box where each side is 4.3 feet in length.


Or a column 50-80 feet tall by 1 foot wide by 1 foot long, or one or more humanoid figures, a small dragon, etc., etc.

Glistam wrote:When you "double" those cubic foot values for the panorama ability, you will not double the base dimensions. That 100 cubic feet is a sphere with a radius of 2.88 feet (diameter of 5.76 feet) or a square where each side measures 4.64 feet in length/width/height. That 160 cubic feet is a sphere with a radius of 3.37 (diameter of 6.74 feet) or a square where each side measures 5.42 feet in length/width/height.

That's why the OP thinks the cubic footage is so small for the panoramic ability. Because it is.


I already agreed that volume measures don't make any sense for the panorama ability -- that's why I suggested treating the size limit as area instead. Admittedly, that still gets you an area the size of a very small apartment, but it's doable, if you imagine it like a Holodeck from Star Trek. The perspective would shift around the target character to create the appearance of moving through a vast landscape, but the target never actually leaves its tiny space.

If that all sounds silly and unrealistic, it probably is. Honestly, I don't know why they didn't just base the Night Prince on the Illusionist in the first place, limiting effects to a number of targets within range, rather than an arbitrary volume constraint.
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by Incriptus »

I ran into the same problem with the astral domains not too long ago.
I've always throught it was a misunderstanding of the difference between "1 foot cubed" and "1 cubic foot".

As written yes the ability is terribly small

Instinct would be to replace with: One 10x10x10 Cube per Level of experience
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Re: Nightprince Illusion Size

Unread post by auyl »

I'd personally change this as mentioned above that it is a mind-affecting ability. The illusion only affects those that are the targets leaving others around him/her confused as to what team mate is seeing that's not really there.
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