New to Nightbane

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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

I'm getting ready for bed, so will just tackle the main question. The damage is first done to S.D.C. and when that runs out then H.P., not both at the same time. It is a dangerous setting and Hounds can chop up Banes very quickly.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Captain wrote:Right so, I came across Nightbane fairly early into my tabletop career, bought the book in like 2003ish? Something like that. Read it, loved it, could never find a group for it. Despite the seeming impossibility of locating some people to play, I've decided to divert some real time and effort to finding a group in my area or online that can maintain good core group dynamics, copacetic in particular to the unique game and story of the Nightbane world. As everyone I've found that's interested is even more woefully underinformed on the subject than myself, I've decided to come to the Palladium Forums on an excursion of truth and justice (or something). At the very least truth. Without further ado...

I have:
Nightbane - Main Book
Between the Shadows - World Book 1
Nightlands - World Book 2
Through the Glass Darkly - World Book 3
Nightbane - Survival Guide

This, in theory, is enough to get rolling. Though I've played Paranoia, DnD (from AD&D to the terrible 4.0), Call of Cthulhu, and some MtA:WoD, and I possess an uncanny knack of grasping game mechanics via text as well as firsthand, combat in this game is confusing. This is my single biggest problem in running a Nightbane game. The source material I have has given me a reallllllly solid basis of ideas to work with in terms of storyline development and gameplay, and though the "fast-paced and easy to understand" combat rules are marketed to be just that, I find them very lacking in specificity. I've no real experience in Palladium games. Most of this is because I have always started any game with a heavier emphasis on story than mechanics, and without fail, every guy/gal I've met in any con/gamestore that is playing anything Palladium is an unconscionable min/max Munchkin. I'm not saying it's all of you, I'm saying based on my personal (extensive) experience, it's most of you.
tl;dr - This system's combat structure makes little sense compared to an actual easy to understand combat system, or any that I've ever tried.

Questions:
-Nightbane require a 5-20 on a d20 to strike, right?


This is the universal rule in all palladium games. zeus needs to roll 5 or higher to hit you. mind, this is after bonus, so if your nightbane has +5 to strike, then essentially they can't miss a standing target. however, you have to remember palladium has an active defence, meaning that, in most cases, the 5 or higher barrier almost never comes into play. all that matters in the end is the defenders roll to parry or dodge. however, if a PC only has +2 strike, and rolls a 2, that's 4 to hit, meaning he wiffs it. nothing bad happens. heck, nothing bad happens on a natural 1--it's impossible to botch a combat roll, the game simply dosn't have a mechanic for it, however the "GM arbitrarily declares something bad happens" is a common houserule.

Rifts and Robotech have a rule for modern weapons combat where guns and other ranged attacks need an 8 or higher to hit, rather than 5, but this rule has not been propagated to other gamelines as of yet, and it's unclear if it's palladium's intention to do so. some GM's use it for all games, others don't use it in non-rifts enviroments.

-If any roll above 5 deals damage to both SDC and HP of a 'Bane without the benefit of an AR higher than base/natural, as the first book states, how do any of them live longer than 5 seconds, and why does it matter how high your SDC is when everything is going to hit your HP as well?


Attacks go off your SDC FIRST, your HP does not deplete until ALL SDC has been gone. when you see something say something like "Deals 4d6 HP/SDC, what it actually means is "Does damage to SDC first, and HP after it's gone"

so if your Nightbane has 300 SDC and 50 HP, you have to take down all 300 SDC before HP can be touched.

Do note, some things, like poisons, or specific magic, can bypass SDC and deal damage directly to HP, but ONLY if the spell or item in question says "deals damage directly to hp". if something does NOT say "Directly to HP", and instead says "HP/SDC", then it ALWAYS has to elimate SDC first, before any can be done to HP. also note, anything that just says "SDC damage", also deals HP damage when SDC is gone. it's a bit of an annoying inconsitancy in keywords (in fact palladium would probably benifit form a keyword system, but that wasn't really a concept at the time it was written).

-Where is a table or some sort of information for attacks a bit more definitive than the one or two sentences dedicated to explanation in the combat section of the first book? Sure, I can tell you a leap attack does x2 damage, x3 on a crit, but I can't tell you anything else about it.


I'm not sure what you mean. if your asking for a complete tabel of combat manuvers and their effects, there isn't one. If you mean something else, please clarify

-A 'normal punch' is described in several places in the first book as being 1d4+PS modifier. In Morphus, the practice character I made has an (ungodly) 36 PS. Following the supernatural strength table, this translates to 6d6 on a normal punch. Ok, great. Where's the info for how much a kick does? What about a 'flip', since there is space for a flip attack on the Nightbane Character Sheet in the first book? I know from contextual support that a regular person does 1d4 on a punch and 1d6 on a kick, and nowhere that I could find was information for supernatural strength kicks.


Supernatural Strength deals identical damage for punches and kicks. while those with normal strength can deal slightly higher damage with kicks because their leg muscles are slightly stronger than arms, supernatural beings limb strength is identical amoung all appendages, thus kicks deal no more or less damage than punches. this was made clear in future books in other lines where supernatural strength damage table was updated to say "on a full strength punch or kick", but nightbane was never edited to clarify this. Also, certain monsters are exceptions and will say what their difference is in their individual writeups.

Palladium has never given any rules for body flips with supernatural strength. GM's call.


-The first book states PC's start out with 2 attacks/round, and NPC's usually start with 1. If that is the case, does this mean that all level 1 Nightbane PC's will have 5 attacks/round in Morphus? 2 from base, 2 from H2H:Martial Arts, one from the 'Creating the Nightbane' section that states Nightbane get an extra attack in their Morphus.


This is correct. yes, they really are that much faster than typical humans.

I rolled a completely random character that I'll probably try to play one day, but mostly just for practice at character creation and for understanding. The one from the above question with the 36PS in Morphus. Also in Morphus, this character has a 206 SDC and 66 HP. When I rolled the HP, I was flabbergasted for such a high number, and absolutely floored when I rolled his SDC. Now here's my point about SDC and HP, if every attack on him has AT LEAST a 75% of striking, and without the benefit of armor of any sort, no middle ground to damage SDC without damaging HP, why does this SDC stat mean a damned thing? I mean, I can come up with all sorts of answers on my own from my own interpretation, but I'd like to have a grasp of the canonical rules, to steal a phrase you guys embrace, before homebrewing my own. DnD, despite the many flaws and inconsistencies in any given scenario, and what I would deem a far less imaginative writing team, makes a lot of sense.


you seem to have somehow missed the parry/dodge rules. palladium has an active defence. Attacker rolls strike. rolls an 8, has +5 to hit, total of 13. this is higher than 5. HOWEVER, before he hits, defender rolls parry. rolls a 14, has +7 parry, total 21 parry. attacker is parried, no damage is delt
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Captain wrote:Even that much is definitely appreciated. The wording on the subject (p61 first Nightbane book) isn't very conclusive. It STATES that it deals damage to both if the roll is over the target's AR. That taken without context of most Morphus lacking any inherent AR makes it seem that it does damage to both, so despite that being counterintuitive, I really wanted clarification, so definitely thanks much.


It's actually made crytal clear on page 36, right hand collum, "When a character is injured or hurt" section.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Allright. and here's your mock combat.

Let's take Joe Bane. For simplicities sake, he wound up with a total ken doll Morphus. no SDC or attribute bonus's or new attacks. he has the following combat attributes

PS: 36. he deals 6d6 damage on a full strength punch. plus, it is well over 17, an extraordinary attribute, meaning he gets a bonus to SDC damage on top. +21 to be specific. so when he punches or kicks someone, he deals 6d6+21 SDC damage. not bad
PE: 21. He wasn't in that great a shape in facade, but the +10 PE all Morphus get is nice. not only does it add to his HP total, but provides +2 save vs. magic, which comes in handy
PP: 26. This is a good role. Joe was always agile, and gets +6 to strike, parry, and dodge, before hand to hand bonus's.
Spd: 25
SDC: 135. lowish for a Nightbane, but not bad
HP: 55. Again, lowish, but easy to work with.

He's got some experience, third level. which means he has some nice bonus's from HtH Martial Arts he gets for free in Morphus. What's more, deciding he needed to toughen up since his becoming, he started working out at the local boxing gym, and participated in sports at the local rec center. both skills provide some attribute bonus's to PS and PE (already taken into account), SDC (also taken into account), and combat bonus's.

attacks per melee: 6. he has 5 by default, as you correctly calculated, but he took the boxing skill, giving +1 attack per melee. at level 4, hand to hand martial arts will provide another attack per melee, which would total 7. levels 8 and 14 also provide an extra attack per melee, so by level 14 he will have 9.

Initiative. +1. these bonus's are hard to come by, init bonus's are typically low to nonexistent.

strike: +10. his PP of 26 gives him +6 strike. his Morphus bonus is +2, and his HtH martial arts gives +2 since he's higher than second level. note, if you are using a melee weapon, and have a W.P. for that weapon, that is added on top. so if he had W.P. sword, and was using a sword, he would add the bonus from that here only when using the weapon.

Parry: +14. again, +6 from PP, +2 from Morphus, here +3 from HtH Martial Arts. additionally, his boxing skill gives +2 parry and dodge, and general athletics +1 to each.

Dodge: +14. this is calculated the same way as parry. do note, it is entirely possible for parry and dodge to have different values, but in this case they turned out the same.

Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact: +5. +3 from Morphus, +3 from HtH martial arts, +1 from boxing and general athletics. No attribute is tied to roll with punch/fall/impact, however, a lot of physical skills provide a bonus to it in addition to those gained from HtH.

or, for a quick glance:

HP: 55 / 55
SDC: 135 / 135
Attacks per Melee: 6
Initiative: +1
strike: +10
Parry: +14
Dodge: +14
Roll: +8

In the other corner, we'll use a quick, generic hound. Note, hounds should, in general, never be encountered alone: they are called hounds in part because they always hunt in packs. but using one will keep the example shorter. we will be assuming a level 4 hound, then, which is about as high as they get.

PS: 28: 4d6+13 on a punch
PE: 17: +1 save vs. magic and poison
PP:18: +2 strike parry and dodge
Spd: 30
HP: 59 (remember, NPC's get HP on level up as well)
SDC: 200

With minimal skills and variables, all hounds will tend to resemble each-other, though some will be more gifted than others. this one is pretty unremarkable. total combat statistics are:

HP: 59 / 59
SDC: 200 / 200
Attacks per melee: 4. one for being an NPC, +1 for all hounds, +2 from HtH Assassin
Initiative: +1
Strike: +7. +1 for hound racial bonus, +2 for HtH assassin, +2 from PP, and +2 since hounds always use their darkblades, they receive their WP bonus.
Parry: +5. HtH assassin does not provide a bonus to parry or dodge until level 6, which hounds almost never reach. otherwise, +2 PP, +WP, +1 hound
Dodge: +3. Only PP and hound racial bonus apply here
Roll with punch/fall/impact: +3

shorthand:


HP: 59 / 59
SDC: 200 / 200
Attacks per melee: 4.
Initiative: +1
Strike: +7.
Parry: +5.
Dodge: +3.
Roll with punch/fall/impact: +3
Damage: 7d6+17 damage. His darkblade adds 3d6 onto his normal SN PS punch damage, and HtH assassin provides +4 damage at level 4 on top.

So the round starts. both Joe and the hound, we'll call him Fido, roll initiative. Hound rolls 14, Joe rolls 13. both have +1 to initiative, becoming 15 and 14 respectively. Fido moves first:

Fido chooses to strike with his Darkblade. he gets lucky out of the gate, rolling a natural 20! (Hey, I'm rolling as I go here). This is an automatic critical hit dealing double damage, and while his +7 is added on, this does not matter, a natural 20 can only be parried or dodged by another natural 20, and a natural 20 to parry or dodge ALWAYS avoids an attack, no matter what the difference in bonus's is. Joe tries hard, rolling a 12, and adding his bonus of +14 parry, but despite this totaling 26, a natural 20 can only be beaten by another natural 20. the hound hits, rolling 25+17=42 damage. this is then doubled for his critical hit, dealing 84 damage right out the gate!

Joe is hurting, the hound nailed him on the first move. however, he has more than enough SDC to take it, but another hit like that and he will be in trouble! he subtracts it from his 135 SDC, leaving him with 51. he still has SDC left, so HP is untouched. but he survived, and now it's his turn.

Joe goes for a fast punch, and rolls strike. he rolls a measly 5, but adds +10 to make it 15 to strike. the hound rolls a pathetic 2 to parry, and his +5 doesn't help him. Joe hits, dealing 6d6+21. normally, the hound takes half damage from all physical attacks, but because the Nightbane has supernatural strength, it's considered a magical attack, and deals normal damage. he returns the favor with an amazing roll of 35+21=56 damage. that's one less than his maximum. damage is done to the hounds 200 SDC, more than enough to take it.

now it's the hounds turn again, who decided more of a good thing is the order of the day. he strikes, rolling a nat 1. because palladium has no botching rules, this attack can technically hit, although Rifts has a rule saying a nat 1 always misses (not critically), Nightbane has no such rule as of yet, and his +7 turning it into 8. Joe parries, of course, and in fact with +14, cannot fail to parry it successfully, whatever the roll. it's a 15, which more than suffices

Joes turn, he decides to do something different, unleashing a talent, fire breather. he released a huge gout of flames from his mouth, rolling 13 to strike. this is NOT a hand to hand attack, so hand to hand bonus's don't apply, however his racial +2 to strike in Morphus does, along with his PP, for 21 strike. what's more, fire breather can only be done once per melee, but gives its own melee attack to use it with. so effectively, it does not cost an attack to use (it does cost an attack, but the talent gives the attack to use it with, canceling out.

Now here's something different. because the attack bypasses all obstacles, it cannot be parried must be dodged. however, dodging costs an attack per melee to use. the hound, reacting on instinct, dives away, rolling 3+5=8. not in time he takes damage, and because it comes from a talent, which he is vulnerable to, the damage is doubled. 19*2=38 damage. hound has 111 SDC left.

Now it's the hounds turn, but he dodged, meaning he loses this turn, and Joe goes again, lashing out with a kick at the vulnerable hound. he rolls 11+10=21 strike, but the hound can parry, rolling 16+5=21. it's a tie. defender wins ties, so he successfully parries the attack by the skin of his teeth.

also, the hound has now recovered, and desperately lashes out again. 12+7=18 strike, and Joe parries with 12+14=26 parry, easily avoiding it. Joe returns the favor, 10+10=20 to strike, but it's not a natural 20 and so not a critical. the hound laughably rolls 1 to parry, but it's not a botch. still, he takes a hit. 21+21=42 damage. the hound is down to 69 SDC. not good.

actually, worse than not good. the hound has used four attacks per melee, but Joe has 6, what's more, his talent gave him a free attack, meaning he still has three attacks left. because the hound is out, he can do nothing but defend and hope to survive the onslaught.

Joe unleashes three blows in fast succession. the first one is 13+10=23 strike, and the hound rolls 17+5=22 parry, just getting hit. Joe does 22+21 damage on his roll, leaving the hound with only 26 SDC left! he's going to be hurting soon. Joe's next roll is 2+10=12 strike, and Fido rolls 12+5=17 parry, evading it, and lastly Joe rolls 14+10=24 strike, and the hound only 8+5=13 parry. he gets hit for 27+21=48 damage. the hound only has 26 SDC left. ALL SDC IS now GONE, what's more, the remaining 22 damage are deducted from the hounds 59 HP, leaving him with only 37 HP left.

it's a new melee round, and now both roll initiative again. hound rolls 13+1=14, and Joe rolls 11+1=12. Hound goes first.

Well, poor Fido took a beating. one more hit like that and he's dead, so Fido decides to live to see another day, and high-tails it, running and attempting to escape. now speed attributes come into play. the hound has a Spd of 30, and Joe only 25. the formula is Spdx20=yards per minute. given enough time and a straight line, he'll defiantly get away. however, before he can, Joe unleashes a his ranged attack, fire breath, rolling...1, +8=9. the hound dodges, taking evasive action as he runs and rolls...a 1. (my dice can be hilarious). with only +3 dodge, this attack technically hits, since in Nightbane, 1's are not automatic misses. he rolls 5d6 for 25 damage, doubled for 50 HP. the hound had only 37 HP left, and so dies just before he can escape with his life.

That's how combat works with just two combatants. it works the same, however, with more, just more turns in the rotation during a melee round. as you can see, PP is generally the most valuable attribute. despite having a pretty unremarkable Morphus, he had a good PS and great PP attribute, both of which let him make short work of a hound. despite this, the hound's parry bonus was only 3 less, letting him parry about half the attacks. and he started off great with a massive critical. a few of those and the fight could have easily swung the other way. Had there been a few more hounds to back him up, things could have gone very differently.

For instance, one hound could have attempted to entangle Joe, if successful would keep him from attacking while his friends beat on him unopposed, and even if the entangle attempts fail, each entangle must be dodged, meaning Joe would be bleeding attacks per melee avoiding one hound while the others fight unopposed. also, one may only parry up to three attackers in the same melee round, so 4 hounds ganging up on him means one would always have to be dodged instead of parried, again, bleeding attacks. lastly, surprise attacks, and attacks from behind, can be neither parried nor dodged, so an ambush from the shadows ARE an unopposed roll of 5 or higher unless you have some power (such as a bat Morpheus's echo radar that lets you detect them before they strike.

Whew. this took longer than I thought, but I hope it clears it up for you.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Captain wrote:Even that much is definitely appreciated. The wording on the subject (p61 first Nightbane book) isn't very conclusive. It STATES that it deals damage to both if the roll is over the target's AR. That taken without context of most Morphus lacking any inherent AR makes it seem that it does damage to both, so despite that being counterintuitive, I really wanted clarification, so definitely thanks much.


Your welcome.

Captain wrote:Also, off topic, I was just reading through old forums stuff here and there, and came across your game recap thread from late '09, last post dated beginning of 2010. That alone helped me a whole lot, reinforcing what I've read in the source books. So, double thanks! (and why didn't you continue the recaps?!?! :p )


Glad they came in handy, a spell of bad health killed that campaign but do want to eventually get something running for Nightbane again.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Bite attacks, if your morphus or Race has one, uses ONLY the listed damage, it is not added on to your SN PS damage sinse it is not technically a weapon. therefore, your bite does 4d6 (morphus), +2d6 (Razor blades in mouth), +21 (strength bonus adds to all damage). so your bite does 6d6+21 damage only. however, razor blades on your hands adds 1d6, and your claws add 2d6 to your punch damage. so when using a claw swipe, you would deal 9d6+21 damage.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

It should also bear noting, you'll notice very high level in advanced hand styles mention Death Blows. death blows deal double damage directly to HP, but have to be declared before being used and cost 2 attacks to use. This has the unfortunate side effect of making it rather useless. "Death blow on natural 20" requires you to guess when your going to roll a nat 20, before you roll it, and betting an attack per melee on being right.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Something else to keep in mind is on page 35 "Supernatural Damage and hand weapons." That makes Hounds, Hound Masters and Hunters vary dangerous to take on in large groups as they can really shred Nightbane in close combat.

Hound with P.S. of 26 does 4D6+11+3D6 with its Darkblade Spear!

The smart player will learn when its prudent to run away.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Not really, remember what I said, while it's true the average bane can beat an average hound 1 on 1, in an actual game you should never actually be in a 1 on 1 situation. 4, 6, and 8 hounds per 1 nightbane is average.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by auyl »

I have to agree with Nekira here, a Nightbane and his group, will NEVER meet a hound one on one. The Nightlords know how tough Nightbane can be and will always and I mean ALWAYS outnumber them. NSB agents may even call a squad of hounds in as backup if their situation gets too hairy. Personally I've also thrown one (sometimes two) Hound Masters in when hounds are encountered.

No matter how good your Nightbane is, the world setting is still against you and should have the advantage. If you're just walking around popping off hounds and NSB left and right, the game isn't being done justice.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Eclipse »

Sure you can have one on one combats - they just tend to be deployed in larger numbers and stick together for the most part. While it might not be typical, I'd give certain body parts a rough % of SDC etc relative to the main body SDC - e.g. head with 20% of the main body for humans for example. And then you can do called shots to specific body parts. It's not particularly realistic, unless you're a cop with a gun to always aim for centre of mass. That makes the Nightlords a tad more vulnerable. Plus you can incorporate special damage like blindness or deafness etc..

Of course this pendulum swings both ways.. but there are plenty of meta-tactics too of course, like setting ambushes and alerting common enemies like vampires and demons..
And if... somone whipped out a mini gun. We run and hide. lol.

Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....

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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Captain wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Not really, remember what I said, while it's true the average bane can beat an average hound 1 on 1, in an actual game you should never actually be in a 1 on 1 situation. 4, 6, and 8 hounds per 1 nightbane is average.


So any encounter with Hounds in a group of four PC's playing 'Bane should include 16-32 Hounds, right? I seem to remember seeing a few different flavortexts within the books making it seem as if that was incredibly untrue.


:lol: getting your wires crossed can have bad effects. I ment to say you should have 4, 6, or 8 nightbane per pack, that is, per pack of hounds. that would be 4-8 hounds deployed togeather, meaning for the average group of 4-6 players, they should have at least even numbers and usually a slight numerical edge.

Also remember that hounds are only the "shock troopers" of the nightlords. they will usually be supported by doppleganger NSB agents. they might have to wear bulletproof vests or paramilitary body armor and use conventional firearms, but take a look at the burst rules. a long burst from an average SMG will be like 3d6*5 damage, so if you have a few of those laying down fire while the hounds go to work (Hounds take half damage, so they wouldn't really care about most friendly fire), it can get bad in a hurry.

I also find it highly unlikely that you should NEVER be in a 1v1 situation with a Hound and a Nightbane. That's possibly wrong, because I haven't quite gotten enough information from other people's games and any other books than the five I've got. But I often try to apply too much realism in my games, which is a big turn off for most players. I hate making generalizations, regardless of their accuracy. That being said, most gamers in my experience, are really not aware of combat outside of a rulebook, which probably let's people think things like a superior numbered force is never outnumbered ever ever ever in any given situation.


Actually, all I ment to imply is that the way they are written, hounds are never deployed in 1's and 2's, and 4 seems to be the smallest number. you CAN, in theory, fight them one and one, yes, but you'd have to work for it, either isolating a deployed squad, or arranging an ambush where they are not currently organized.

So when I say the PC's should never have a 1 on 1 encounter, I mean the nightlords will never willingly deploy hounds in 1's and 2's, perfering always to keep them in groups sinse they know perfectly well even a weak nightbane like Joe is likely to win 1 on 1. it's entirely possible for players to work to isolate and destroy a search and destroy party 1 by 1 if they are clever, but that's never the badguys plan.



E: Oh, on the subject... How should this game rate on combat when run accurately? In that I mean, obviously, the 'Bane are facing a far more advanced, more organized and efficient, as well as a superior numbered force in the Nightlords and their minions. So I'm imagining combat more like Call of Cthulhu, where a good starter rule is, "Don't attack unless it attacks you", because of the high rate of death involved in fighting. On the other end of the spectrum, you have a game like DnD, where every character is practically unkillable in an appropriate level encounter (assuming said player doesn't make bad decisions). Is this somewhere in between? I mean the war between the two means there is definite fighting on a regular basis, and of course how active a given group is in that war should be according to their preference and playstyle, and of course the way they participate in that war is up to every individual character. Nightbane on their own are incredibly powerful, which doesn't mute the fact that as you guys reiterated and the books originally iterated clearly, that they are horribly outgunned. With that all taken into consideration I'd imagine most fights and such being as much about surviving ambushes when on the defensive, and staging them on the offense. I can tell you from personal experience, it doesn't matter how many guys you got when half of the target objective's men are down before they realize they should be in cover, and that's the way I'd imagine this to go. Lots of guerrilla warfare.

Thoughts? Y/n?


The real issue you have to remember is this: the nightlords control the police. they control the military, and they've organized paramilitary militias loyal to them all over the country. you can fight--you can win. nightbane are powerful, a small group of nightbane, utilizing surprise, tactics, and their talents and any possible magical backup well can defiantly take out more than their number of hounds or ashmendi or other demons. they can fight back--they might loose someone, but they can win.

And then? well, someone probablly radioed for backup. if it's taking place in a major city where nightlords like to base their operations, someone probablly just called the police.

The police will always take the nightlords side of the story sinse they own the police cheif and mayor, ect. so you can't let yourself be taken prisoner because they will just transfer you to the NSB and you'll never be seen again. but now what do you do? fight the cops? most rank and file are just doing they're jobs, but they've been told your insane terrorists who just gunned up the firehouse cultists were using for no sane reason.

but even if you do, then your just giving time for the NSB to show up, and they'll show up with MORE hounds, dozens of them, and guys with full combat armor (which can have hundreds of SDC) and M4 carbines, not to mention vehicle machineguns and such. and if for some reason you try to take THAT on, they can bring in the military, calling in airstrikes and tanks like you have 6 star wanted rating in GTA.

In short, you have to use gurillia tactics. you can NOT stay in one place to fight it out because they will just call in more and heavier firepower up to and including just bombing the place.

Get in, accomplish your goal, then get out before reinforcements show up. if you ever let yourself get pinned down, your as good as dead.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Yep, we're pretty much on the same page, especially with the weaponry you discribed. Your absolutely right, and don't forget: Dopplegangers have supernatural strength, which means not only can they carry all that heavy weaponry you discribed, but do it pretty easially as long as news crews arn't filming it--and the first thing they'd do is lay down a media blackout and keep them away from the perimeter.

And, for example, your game takes place out in the countryside, for some reason, the perserver party has been organizing recognized militias (gotta love the second amendment), and been feeding them military grade hardware, and usually run by a night preist cultist. while these militias won't be as organized as NSB squads and take longer to respond, they will still be dangerous and will usually have covert magical assistance by cultists within the group, and possibly a few supernatural minions in disguise. They can tail and harass you until the national guard shows up.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Captain wrote:Even that much is definitely appreciated. The wording on the subject (p61 first Nightbane book) isn't very conclusive. It STATES that it deals damage to both if the roll is over the target's AR. That taken without context of most Morphus lacking any inherent AR makes it seem that it does damage to both, so despite that being counterintuitive, I really wanted clarification, so definitely thanks much.

Also, off topic, I was just reading through old forums stuff here and there, and came across your game recap thread from late '09, last post dated beginning of 2010. That alone helped me a whole lot, reinforcing what I've read in the source books. So, double thanks! (and why didn't you continue the recaps?!?! :p )


I realized I should clarify something here: the rules on 61 are only refering to body armor, such as bulletproof vests (or meidval plate mail if that's your thing). if you roll under the AR, you damage the armor's SDC, if you roll over the AR, you damage the target's SDC, and hit points only after all SDC is depelted.

But what about nightbane that naturally have an armor rating? Those use the rules for Natural AR, which is attacks that roll under the AR do no damage at all, and deal damage to SDC only if the roll is higher. So if your nightbane's morphus has an AR of 12, and the attacker rolls 11 to hit, then the attack does no damage. if they roll a 13, then they deal damage to your SDC, then HP after SDC is gone.

Also an important note: the Darkblades of the hounds ignore AR completely. they can cut through absolutely anything, they've been cannonically stated to have killed a tank crew by casually stabbing through the tank and spearing the crew.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by auyl »

Captain wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote: Also an important note: the Darkblades of the hounds ignore AR completely. they can cut through absolutely anything, they've been cannonically stated to have killed a tank crew by casually stabbing through the tank and spearing the crew.


Yeah I remember reading that. I do need to know something else...

Upon level up, how are skills determined? Do you ever learn more than what you start with? I know you add the base skill %, your IQ %, and your occupational bonuses once, at first level, to determine what you have. I know you add the +% listed in the skill description next to the base skill on each level up. What I'm asking is for example, the character I random rolled with the feline form Morphus I used the basic Spook Squad/former military package to determine his skills. (His backstory is he enlisted in the military.) So I used, as it said, some of the secondary skill choices for weapons he would likely know, most notably, automatic pistol, bolt action rifle, and semi/auto assault rifles. Now, let's say he goes on some adventures and what have you, and ends up getting a Darkblade from a fallen Hound. I know this is not exactly an uncommon event. How do I get him that weapon proficiency? Do I have to do it at creation, in the event he gets a sword? Not that it couldn't be easily worked in, but they don't train us how to use swords in MCMAPS or in boot, or in SOI, so unless I wanted to drop a current proficiency and retcon the skills into his backstory, I don't see how I could learn it.

tl;dr - How do you attain a weapon proficiency after character creation/post level 1?


You would have to obtain the appropraite weapon proficiency with the bonus skills you get from leveling up. These can be found in the skills section of the appropriate OCC/RCC. For instance it will say OCC Skills: blah blah blah you get 8 OCC skills at level 1 and 1 additional skill at level 3, 7, 11 etc. etc. These can also be found under the OCC Related Skills and Secondary Skills. Each class has its own new skills at certain levels. So be sure to check your OCC/RCC each time you level up to see if you get new skills. These new skills start at the base level. So a WP that you obtain at level 3, would still be a level 1 WP. When you get to level 4, the WP would now be level 2.

Hope this helps.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Captain wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote: Also an important note: the Darkblades of the hounds ignore AR completely. they can cut through absolutely anything, they've been cannonically stated to have killed a tank crew by casually stabbing through the tank and spearing the crew.


Yeah I remember reading that. I do need to know something else...

Upon level up, how are skills determined? Do you ever learn more than what you start with? I know you add the base skill %, your IQ %, and your occupational bonuses once, at first level, to determine what you have. I know you add the +% listed in the skill description next to the base skill on each level up. What I'm asking is for example, the character I random rolled with the feline form Morphus I used the basic Spook Squad/former military package to determine his skills. (His backstory is he enlisted in the military.) So I used, as it said, some of the secondary skill choices for weapons he would likely know, most notably, automatic pistol, bolt action rifle, and semi/auto assault rifles. Now, let's say he goes on some adventures and what have you, and ends up getting a Darkblade from a fallen Hound. I know this is not exactly an uncommon event. How do I get him that weapon proficiency? Do I have to do it at creation, in the event he gets a sword? Not that it couldn't be easily worked in, but they don't train us how to use swords in MCMAPS or in boot, or in SOI, so unless I wanted to drop a current proficiency and retcon the skills into his backstory, I don't see how I could learn it.

tl;dr - How do you attain a weapon proficiency after character creation/post level 1?


All skill packages list how many and at what levels you get new skills. the spook squad one is "Select eight other skills, plus two additional skills at levels three and six, and one more at levels 9 and 12"

all new skills start at first level. so the new skills at level 3 are at level 1 profiency. at level 4 they are level 2. there's no way for a new skill to catch up with your current level.

additionally, you get six secondary skills regardless of skill package, and and two more skills at levels four and eight.

pages 88 and 89 respectivly.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Eclipse »

Well, the Nightlords have got most of human society under their thumb and plenty of their own enforcement, but as GM, you can make your player's lives easier by hooking them up with interested parties like those light-based guardians, astral mages etc, who can lend extra firepower and in the latter's case offer quick escape options, not to mention other more experienced Nightbane. And the enemy of your enemy.. find out where unaffiliated demons/vamps/whatever hang out and either make temporary friends or just try to organise accidental encounters between them and the Nightlord's minions.
And if... somone whipped out a mini gun. We run and hide. lol.

Now.. some guys won't... and you can say nice things at their funeral. "He was a brave soul.... if stupid.. he didn't take cover when the guy whipped out the mini gun on us that day.. but his blood-fountaining corpse did give us a chance to sneak around and clonk the machine gunner on the head with a rock. Rest in Pieces.... Swiss Cheese Man.....

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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

I will give your players one tip: at level five, SOMEONE has to take the Doorway talent. the ability to make a portal miles away at will is invaluble for escaping after you finish your objective, or escaping from an otherwise fatal ambush.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Pretty good starter suite. Those are pretty common first level picks for a reason.

If I were you, i'd consider picking up shadow sheild in a level or 2. it might not look like much at level 1, but 20 SDC forcefeild per 2 PPE spend is awsome. sure, it only gives up to 40 SDC at level 1, but it goes up by 40 each level. by level 4 it's giving 160 SDC and going up from there.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

NSG also has a new skill method based off your characters level of education rather than a faction-based starter package.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Sir_Spirit »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:So the round starts. both Joe and the hound, we'll call him Fido, roll initiative. Hound rolls 14, Joe rolls 13. both have +1 to initiative, becoming 15 and 14 respectively. Fido moves first:

now it's the hounds turn again, who decided more of a good thing is the order of the day. he strikes, rolling a nat 1. because palladium has no botching rules, this attack can technically hit, although Rifts has a rule saying a nat 1 always misses (not critically), Nightbane has no such rule as of yet, and his +7 turning it into 8. Joe parries, of course, and in fact with +14, cannot fail to parry it successfully, whatever the roll. it's a 15, which more than suffices

A strike roll of 1 to 4 is always an Automatic miss.

Now it's the hounds turn, but he dodged, meaning he loses this turn


Examples of combat clearly show that using an action to defend yourself does not cost you your turn.
The order of combat is shown to be:
Fido attacks
Joe defends(taking an action)
Attack resolves
Joe attacks
Fido defends(taking an action)
Attack is resolved
Fido attacks
Joe defends
Attack resolves

Well, poor Fido took a beating. one more hit like that and he's dead, so Fido decides to live to see another day, and high-tails it, running and attempting to escape. now speed attributes come into play. the hound has a Spd of 30, and Joe only 25. the formula is Spdx20=yards per minute. given enough time and a straight line, he'll defiantly get away. however, before he can, Joe unleashes a his ranged attack, fire breath, rolling...1, +8=9. the hound dodges, taking evasive action as he runs and rolls...a 1. (my dice can be hilarious). with only +3 dodge, this attack technically hits, since in Nightbane, 1's are not automatic

Again, strike rolls of 1-4 are automatic misses.
But except the two things I pointed out, this scenario seems rather correct.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Sir_Spirit wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:So the round starts. both Joe and the hound, we'll call him Fido, roll initiative. Hound rolls 14, Joe rolls 13. both have +1 to initiative, becoming 15 and 14 respectively. Fido moves first:

now it's the hounds turn again, who decided more of a good thing is the order of the day. he strikes, rolling a nat 1. because palladium has no botching rules, this attack can technically hit, although Rifts has a rule saying a nat 1 always misses (not critically), Nightbane has no such rule as of yet, and his +7 turning it into 8. Joe parries, of course, and in fact with +14, cannot fail to parry it successfully, whatever the roll. it's a 15, which more than suffices

A strike roll of 1 to 4 is always an Automatic miss.


Nightbane rule book, page 61. "roll a twenty sided die. If the result is four or less (counting bonuses), then the attacker misses"

Emphasis mine

Now it's the hounds turn, but he dodged, meaning he loses this turn


Examples of combat clearly show that using an action to defend yourself does not cost you your turn.
The order of combat is shown to be:
Fido attacks
Joe defends(taking an action)
Attack resolves
Joe attacks
Fido defends(taking an action)
Attack is resolved
Fido attacks
Joe defends
Attack resolves


The only combat example i'm aware of is in the rifts main book page 42-45, and on page 43 clearly shows the guy dodging losing his attack due to dodging and had to wait for his next move.
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Sir_Spirit »

Nightbane, page 62 left column, (Continuing the Combat )and says that as long as they(the defender) have melee attacks left then they(the defender) go next.
RUE, which overrides standard Rifts,Page 341, right column, Combat Sequence, agrees with me, and Nightbane.
The Defender goes next regardless of defensive option chosen.

Also, "the Rifts combat example" you mention is a bit muddled, it does not state that he dodged before hand, it states he is trying to finish getting into his power armor, it then states that his first action(which is trying to make get into his armor) must be delayed because he tried to dodge, which it didn't have him roll for or mention in anyway. See, also HU, I could swear there is a combat example there.Hmm, no, but look at p.65, I guess.

I'll keep looking....
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Try looking above on the same page. page 62, nightbane, under step 3, has a big bolded note

NOTE: Bullets and energy attacks cannot be parried, but CAN be dodged. Defending by dodging or entangling means
automatically giving up the next melee attack.

Underline mine.

Then your continuing combat section only says "So long as the opponents have melee attacks left, combat continues back and forth." not that they go next. the "back and forth" refers to the cycle of combat with each person taking the same inititve slot in the melee round. it says nothing about dodging and definatly dosn't contradict the note that says dodging takes the next attack.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Tor »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:palladium has an active defence, meaning that, in most cases, the 5 or higher barrier almost never comes into play. all that matters in the end is the defenders roll to parry or dodge.


Too bad active defenses don't mean much for aggressors unless they have paired weapons, due to simultaneous attacks.

Heck, the huge advantage those with HtH have (auto-parry) over those who do not is also nullified by simultaneous attacks unless agressors have paired WP so that they can maintain an auto-parry whilst attacking.

Rolls to dodge also don't help all that much if there's missles in play. Rolls to roll often mean more.
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Re: New to Nightbane

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:palladium has an active defence, meaning that, in most cases, the 5 or higher barrier almost never comes into play. all that matters in the end is the defenders roll to parry or dodge.


Too bad active defenses don't mean much for aggressors unless they have paired weapons, due to simultaneous attacks.


this varies from group to group. in my personal experiance simul attacks if neither side has paired weapons only comes up once in a blue moon.

Heck, the huge advantage those with HtH have (auto-parry) over those who do not is also nullified by simultaneous attacks unless agressors have paired WP so that they can maintain an auto-parry whilst attacking.


the real advantage those with HtH have over those who do not is attacks per melee. like, those without hand to hand have only 1 single attack per melee. which means they can only simul-attack one time.

Rolls to dodge also don't help all that much if there's missles in play. Rolls to roll often mean more.


we're talking about Nightbane, mini missiles don't really factor into things.
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