Red Flame Demons

[SolCannibal]

Where can one get information about them? What books - in or out of Nightbane - mention them exactly?

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're pretty much only in the Nightlands book.

[SolCannibal]

Is the demon lord called Blackfire, that was making an alliance with Lilith - and was destroyed along with her astral plane domain and avatar Nightrose - somehow related to them?

[Nekira Sudacne]

No way to determine that. although I doubt it. Given that the demon lord in question had to A: be strong enough to potentially defeat Moloch, and B: have enough of an army to invade and hold the nightlands, I can only assume the demon lord in question was rather more powerful, possibly ruling a unique hell of his own. After all whoever it was was strong enough the dark felt the need for direct intervention.

[SolCannibal]

No way to determine that. although I doubt it. Given that the demon lord in question had to A: be strong enough to potentially defeat Moloch, and B: have enough of an army to invade and hold the nightlands, I can only assume the demon lord in question was rather more powerful, possibly ruling a unique hell of his own. After all whoever it was, was strong enough the dark felt the need for direct intervention.

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No way to determine that. although I doubt it. Given that the demon lord in question had to A: be strong enough to potentially defeat Moloch, and B: have enough of an army to invade and hold the nightlands, I can only assume the demon lord in question was rather more powerful, possibly ruling a unique hell of his own. After all whoever it was, was strong enough the dark felt the need for direct intervention.

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

The avatar that was there WAS destroyed.

Unless you mean "Why didn't it just wipe out the real lillith" too, in which case, the dark is not omnipotent and there may be dozens of reasons why it didn't.

[SolCannibal]

No way to determine that. although I doubt it. Given that the demon lord in question had to A: be strong enough to potentially defeat Moloch, and B: have enough of an army to invade and hold the nightlands, I can only assume the demon lord in question was rather more powerful, possibly ruling a unique hell of his own. After all whoever it was, was strong enough the dark felt the need for direct intervention.

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

The avatar that was there WAS destroyed.

Unless you mean "Why didn't it just wipe out the real lillith" too, in which case, the dark is not omnipotent and there may be dozens of reasons why it didn't.

Still, it seems strange for it to detect the avatar's treacherous initiative but ignore the Nightlord it was part of. Would not the Dark, whatever it is, know?

[Tor]

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

Who can say what the Dark intends? If the Dark was indeed speaking to Foulseed, why would it still empower Moloch? The Dark might tell Moloch to forbid Lilith from cavorting with demons but it might still want to keep her around a while.

By destroying an avatar, it puts the fear in her and keeps a valuable minion around. The Lords of Night would lose much in losing Lilith. Better to just bring her to heel.

Plus avatars sometimes become more independent with time, especially Astral Avatars, so the Dark may not have blamed Lilith for her copy's sin.

[SolCannibal]

Good points those, a sort of stern warning to curb bad moves from a still valuable agent - in fact i still have to get the hang of quite how independent from their "source" avatars can become.

[Tor]

One of the best examples is I think even one of Lilith's mortal avatars is potentially thinking about betraying her. I think the one who deals with Devil City or something.

[Sir_Spirit]

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

Who can say what the Dark intends? If the Dark was indeed speaking to Foulseed, why would it still empower Moloch? The Dark might tell Moloch to forbid Lilith from cavorting with demons but it might still want to keep her around a while.

By destroying an avatar, it puts the fear in her and keeps a valuable minion around. The Lords of Night would lose much in losing Lilith. Better to just bring her to heel.

Plus avatars sometimes become more independent with time, especially Astral Avatars, so the Dark may not have blamed Lilith for her copy's sin.

Or maybe the Dark can't remove power it's given out, nor directly strike at it's chosen servants due to binding agreements made with Moloch and Co. It may have been able to fudge on the rule when her servant was in the astral plain, perhaps using another servant in a suicide strike.

[gaby]

What are the races in Red Flame Demon.

Is it Ok to make them independent from Hades.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

[gaby]

What are the types of the Red Flame Demon.

Do you come up with Unique Monsters for Nightbane.

[Soldier of Od]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

[SolCannibal]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

Where is Helldancer mentioned? Can't remember it right now.

Also, is there stuff on Red Flame Demons in Dark Conversions?

[Rallan]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

Where'd you get that from? All the demon races in the Nightlands book were totally new and created specifically for the Nightbane setting, and there was nothing in the flavour text linking them to anything that's going on in any other game lines.

[SolCannibal]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

Where'd you get that from? All the demon races in the Nightlands book were totally new and created specifically for the Nightbane setting, and there was nothing in the flavour text linking them to anything that's going on in any other game lines.

Edit: just checked my books and there it was.

Helldancer works for both Lady Lilith and Modeus, the Lord of Hades, while trying to negotiate a treaty between the two. However, his true loyalties lie with Modeus, so should the ruler of Hades order Helldancer to betray Lilith, he will do so without hesitation.

So, yeah, some minor link to the Megaverse was set for those looking for it.

[Soldier of Od]

the red flame demons are already indepnendant from hades. they have nothing to do with them.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

Where'd you get that from? All the demon races in the Nightlands book were totally new and created specifically for the Nightbane setting, and there was nothing in the flavour text linking them to anything that's going on in any other game lines.

Edit: just checked my books and there it was.

Helldancer works for both Lady Lilith and Modeus, the Lord of Hades, while trying to negotiate a treaty between the two. However, his true loyalties lie with Modeus, so should the ruler of Hades order Helldancer to betray Lilith, he will do so without hesitation.

So, yeah, some minor link to the Megaverse was set for those looking for it.

Yup, that's it. page 68 of Nightlands. There are a few other references too.

Note that a lot of people keep referring to all of the demons in Nightbane as 'Red Flames Demons' - I think it is important to stress that Red Flames demons or 'Red Flames Teams' specifically refers to the dozen or so raiding parties sent into the Nightlands on a specific observation and undermining mission. They are working for an unnamed 'major demon lord'. Other demons, like those just hanging around Devil's City or those on Earth and other places causing other kinds of trouble are not 'Red Flames Demons', just demons or perhaps 'Demons of the Netherworld'.

[SolCannibal]

Yes, Red Flame might actually be just a name of the several reconaissance/strike teams of some mysterious force. Some mention/comparison to the original Demon Invasion is made, what may or not be considered as a connection.

The demons that compose the sample team we see are clearly Netherworld demons. That said, it may either mean they are natives of Hades (as Helldancer is apparently a Netherworld Demon Lord) or that those races are known to serve and compose the forces of a variety of master and infernal kingdoms.

[Tor]

the dark is not omnipotent and there may be dozens of reasons why it didn't.

Yeah I figure the Dark realizes that avatars can get independent and do stuff behind their creator's backs, so he didn't hold Lilith accountable because there wasn't any evidence against her.

Besides, the damage inflicted on the creator when their avatar dies is a pretty decent warning.

Helldancer, the demon lord working with Lilith, is loyal to Modeus, ruler of Hades.

Which Modeus? We have the alien intelligence in CB1 (named Asmodeus in full, as Pantheons indicates by references in the Aztec pantheon) and the demon lord in Dragons and Gods. Intelligence-Modeus hangs out with a male Mictla while Demon-Modeus hangs out with a female Mictla.

Poor Modeus apparently has the same problems that Mephisto of the Deevil Lords is mentioned as having regarding super-powerful AIs ripping off their names and establishing themselves on Rifts Earth.

It makes me wonder if the PF mirror is the ONLY form of Hades, or if the ones the CB1 intelligences (and CB2 gods) live in might be a different one.

some minor link to the Megaverse was set for those looking for it.

The reference to Loki-G from Pantheons under Ashtart was also pretty cool.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No way to determine that. although I doubt it. Given that the demon lord in question had to A: be strong enough to potentially defeat Moloch, and B: have enough of an army to invade and hold the nightlands, I can only assume the demon lord in question was rather more powerful, possibly ruling a unique hell of his own. After all whoever it was, was strong enough the dark felt the need for direct intervention.

Supposing it was really The Dark, as Lilith herself thought, she should most probably be dead if it was behind that.

The avatar that was there WAS destroyed.

Unless you mean "Why didn't it just wipe out the real lillith" too, in which case, the dark is not omnipotent and there may be dozens of reasons why it didn't.

Still, it seems strange for it to detect the avatar's treacherous initiative but ignore the Nightlord it was part of. Would not the Dark, whatever it is, know?

Why should it? It would be a mistake to attribute Omniscence to it as well. There's no reason to assume it knows everything the nightlords are up to, or even that it can find out scerets automatically if it chooses to hide them with arcane knowlage.

[SolCannibal]

The matter of which Modeus we are talking about is a relevant one, considering i do plan to toy with the idea of imposter demon lords in my game - in fact an alliance of false Modeus, Mictla & Mephisto. Hmmmm, it COULD mean the fakes setting up a confrontation between Nightlords & Hades for their advantage. Nice.