Witch Passing

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Veknironth
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Witch Passing

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, we have a witch (pact of magic) in our group, but he isn't telling us he's a witch. It's rather obvious, though, since he has a dog over 25lbs that he says he can communicate with. He has also shown several psionic powers as well as magic spells. Another character in the group is a Priest of Isis. Eventually (or rather soon), the priest is going to figure out the witch's true origin and there's going to be a confrontation. This is a great role-playing opportunity, and I love to see this kind of in character conflict but I worry that someone's going to have to roll up a new PC or the group will choose sides and splinter. Either of those would be an issue for players and the GM.

So, I've been trying to figure out how the witch could pass off its abilities without admitting he's a witch. The best I can come up with is a Priest of Darkness who happens to be a major psionic. Can you guys think of anythig better? Just PFRPG, Megaversal answers aren't going to help.

-Vek
"Really, serves you right if you think you're going to run around with a witch in a campaign.
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by kiralon »

It's not an easy thing, Priests particular enemies seem to be Demons/Devils from the text, even more so than undead, so even if it seems to be a great rpg thing, if the players do play it out the priest will have to back down to keep the party together. A witch can work with a priest, but not really the other way. One of the priests worries would be losing his powers for working with evil for one, so there would have to be a really compelling reason for him to do so. I try to warn my players away from this and if they insist i tell them to be prepared for there to be in party fights about it, as in they are picking a future fight with another player. I know as a dm i wouldn't allow a priest of light to keep his powers if he worked willingly with a witch npc, so I wouldn't with a pc (barring extra-ordinary issues, like only the witch being able to save the world sort of stuff).
The best way I hid it once was to have the witch pretend to be a shaman, cause people usually know diddly about them, and got the player to say his familiar was an animal possessed bv his ancestor spirit so it had unusual abilities, and as it was a spirit it would detect as supernatural evil. As i do weird things in my games it was accepted by the rest of the party.
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Re: Witch Passing

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Veknironth wrote:Well, we have a witch (pact of magic) in our group, but he isn't telling us he's a witch. It's rather obvious, though, since he has a dog over 25lbs that he says he can communicate with. He has also shown several psionic powers as well as magic spells.
[snip]
So, I've been trying to figure out how the witch could pass off its abilities without admitting he's a witch.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, are we discussing how to pass this off in character or how to convince the players? I ask as we'd have to separate player knowledge from character knowledge.

For instance, it's unlikely many characters in the world know the details of a 9th level spell. So, at the very least, I'd expect a Lore: Magic skill check (possibly at a penalty to know the specific detail of a high level spell) to know the weight limitation, and without that piece of game knowledge from the rule book, there's little reason to suspect this isn't a typical Familiar Link.

The Beast Master (Book 7) ignores the size limitation entirely (but they also get Animal Telepathy, which can thereby be verified by testing if it works on other animals.

Also, in Mysteries of Magic there are rules to create a spell. It's possible someone made a custom spell of Familiar Link with a greater weight limitation. Of course, players will realize this has a highly unlikely chance to succeed, and the chances of the character previously buying or being given such a scroll by someone else is unlikely because most G.M. would not allow it, so thereby a player will not have it.

Now, communication with the dog is interesting. First, has it happened in front of the party? Because a Witch Familiar does not, by default, have telepathic communication. They communicate through speech, like people do. So if they're communicating in front of others (unless everyone can understand the dog), then it's not a typical Witch Familiar, but could still be using Telepathy.

Now there is the simple psionic Commune with Animals which could explain a lot. Of course, that would mean the character can communicate with other animals as well, and the dog is simply a preferred companion. Similarly, I've heard some G.M. allow Telepathy to work with animals, which would then thereby provide an alternate to the above psionic (but same end result).

Now if the dog has Telepathy, it could be some type of telepathic dog (akin to the Emirin which are cats). Or, something like a shape shifted Were-Shaman (book 10) that still retains some human mind. If this is a Demon Familiar has Telepathy, then maybe it also has Commune with Animals to help the Witch pretend he has the ability instead).

If communication with the dog is done away from others (so they can speak freely), and he's just told the party about it, then it's also possible the character has some type of spy network or other method for learning the info, and just claims it's the dog (to throw them off the true trail).

Magic and psionics are, of course, easy to explain. In addition to the obvious Psi-Mystic, effectively any class (magic users included), can have minor and major psionics (step 4 of character creation).

Those are just some of the simplest responses, as without being part of the game to know more details it's harder to guess (because abilities displayed and description of the dog all play factors) or make up decent alternatives. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Veknironth
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I missed one important piece of information. The witch said he could see through the dog's eyes. That's much more damning than merely communicating.

I was thinking more about the witch being able to pass with the characters (especially the priest who is already suspicious) and with NPCs. The GM can just decide people aren't on the look out for witches. That could work in the Middle Kingdoms since they're more on the lookout for traditional wizards. Although, if I were Ulstrian Kaze, I'd have my army of priests pray to make scrolls of "See Aura" and have people scanned in large groups as they enter the city. No wizards, psionicists, or supernatural creatures would sneak in. You could also have patrols looking at people at random in the city. If it's one of your most important religious tenants and there is a solution... I digress.

There were Lore:Magic rolls made successfully. That's a GM descretion for how much information on the spell you'd have. One suggesition I had was to say that the witch, who is going to pose as someong with psionic abilities (maybe a mind mage?), was given a scroll and used it on the dog when it was a puppy. That puppy would be below the 25lb weight restriction. The lore roll might not tell you if that would work because the book says nothing. Using the Mysteries of Magic alternate spell rules would work. Or maybe it's just a superior version of Familiar Link?

I think the Commune with Animals would work for short time. Eventually, the group will be suspicious as to why that power ALWAYS works with the dog but never with other animals. I thought telepathy needed some sort of spoken language, which would rule out communicating with a simple animal. Also, why have Commune with Animals when Telepathy does the same thing? (I know, because Palladium).

I agree the magic and psionics are easy to explain. The Psi Mystic is perfect, as is a Wizard with major psionics. Another option, which is too late to do now, it just not flaunt your abilities. Don't let people see you do all of these things and wonder how you did them.

The idea of having lied about the dog is interesting. It's so obvious I can't believe none of us thought of it. Now, there would need to be another lie as to how he was able to know the things he knew, but that's easy. The hard part is explaining why he told the curious lie of being able to see through the dog's eyes when he couldn't. Any suggestions anyone? He told us he saw someone leaving a taven quickly as we entered. Like I said, he really messed up by going to the "see through the dog's eyes" as the first thing.

He's just really boned if someone who hates witches (like almost everyone) simply hits him with words of truth, telepathy, or see aura on the dog. That see aura shows you that it's supernatural and your only options are to accept your fate, fight your way out, or act like you didn't know the dog was a supernatural creature and join in the attack (and hope they don't hit you with Words of Truth or Telepathy to verify your lie).

-Vek
"What WOULD happen if you cast Familiar Link on a young creature and then it grows past the weight limit of the spell?"
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by kiralon »

Honestly it sound's like he is going to get caught because he isn't subtle enough. If this is a serious game and i was DM i'd be prepping for a new character/party. If it was a casual game i'd go with the laughs. I do find however the palladium players tend to be more attached to their characters a little more just due to the time to create so they tend to be more serious about them.

I

only allow familiar link to work on creatures whose average weight was allowed, and if it went a bit over it would be fine, but if the critters normal weight is over the limit its a no go.
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I agree 100%. Not nearly subtle enough and not remotely prepared for the obvious questions that are going to arise. I mean why would the first thing you mention in terms of special abilities be the thing that most gives you away? And to have NO cover story for your abilities? The hard core part of me wants him to get caught, and see what happens. It would be a really interesting role-playing moment. But, the tiny kind part of me wants to try to help make peace and prevent the guy from leveling his character and then having the society take it from him.

-Vek
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Already some good advice there. Your first suggestion of a priest of darkness with major psionics would also work - they get demon familiars, which negates the need to explain that away, as the hellhound is already pretty much out of the bag. If any of the other players know for certain that they don't get the familiar until level six, perhaps the witch could simply say it was awarded to them early for some great service to the god? It might also be a more believable lie to come out with at this late stage: "I didn't want to tell you all I was a priest of darkness in case you didn't approve - ordinary folk think we're all blood-sacrificing maniacs, ha ha!"

So the priest of Isis would not be willing to work alongside a witch - would they be willing to work alongside a priest of darkness? Does it depend what god they are aligned to? Does this priest believe in the balance of the gods of light and dark or are they a strict light-only priest? What god, demon or deevil is the witch actually sworn to? That might actually make a massive difference.

In a campaign we played a while ago over half the party eventually became witches. All of the PCs were tempted by various deities to sell their souls in order to gain the power needed to combat a greater evil we were up against - the Old Ones. That "necessary evil" meant that the rest of the party were (warily) acceptant of the witches for the good of the mission. It was fun!

My character (an Ancestral Mystic - see Rifter 55) refused Tolmet's proposal! :)
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I missed one important piece of information. The witch said he could see through the dog's eyes. That's much more damning than merely communicating.

Why? Anyone subject to the Wizard Invocation of "Familiar Link" is going to be able to do the same thing. They can exchange any sensory information per the text (PF2E pg206-7) "... For the mage, the familiar is now a sensory extension enabling him to see, hear, smell, taste, and feel everything the animal experiences."

In the Main Book alone that means that starting at 3rd Level (per spell text is the earliest it can be used even though it is a 9th Level Spell): Wizard (selected), Druid (given at 3rd Level), or Psi-Mystic (which depending on how the stringent the texts involved are handled could be 3rd or 9th level).

The main differences between a Demon Familiar and Wizard Familiar is the weight limit (none), that it can use magic and psionic powers (technically animals have limited Psionics that are exceeded here), and they can talk (will try to maintain the illusion they cannot without specific instruction from the Witch). If the PC's familiar displayed any of these characteristics the ability to protect the player's class just became more limited.

That said the only way to protect the Witch's Identity would be:
1. find a cover Class identity (ex. high level Psi-Mystic would have psionics and mage, plus possibility of a Familiar Link), which seems to be the preferred method. What class was the PC trying to pass themself off as?
2. use a fabricated backstory to cover their tracks. Options here would be subject to a magical experiment/mutation OR a (custom) Curse (Deific level?)
3. find an animal/creature they could have bonded to that doesn't qualify as a "Familiar" but could be passed off as it (off hand there is at least one example in Rifts: the Blood Lizard RCC in WB9 pg137-8, you'd just need one for PF and to match the players choice of animal though I don't know if such an animal exists)
4. The Source of the Witch's Pact (or even the specific Demon used to create the Familiar) is on good terms with the Priest of Light's God trope, is the Pact Source or Demon Familiar's background fleshed out? Could the Witch's Pact be made with a god (maybe not the PoL's god)
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Re: Witch Passing

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Well, the Familiar Link was the original problem. Sure that explains the "seeing through the dog eyes" problem but the dog is too big. I've been pushing for the guy and the GM to flesh out the patron so that there could be some mitigating history, but I don't know if they've done that yet.

But there's a twist! I know it's trite to recount the details of a campaign, but this does add to this particular question a bit. During a battle, the priest was wounded and the witch attempted to heal him with the Heal Wounds spell. The priest, who suspects witchcraft based on the dog, refuses. The priest tells the witch not to touch him, the witch does, and the priest makes a saving throw against the spell and is not healed. Seconds later, the priest is in melee combat and is whalloped down to negative HP. Three minutes until he bleeds out. Had the priest accepted the healing, he likely would have maintained consciousness. But while the priest was unconscious, the witch healed him and brought him back out of the coma. When the priest attempted to heal someone else, Isis initially did not grant the boon. Warning shot I guess. Also, the priest tried to heal the witch but that was a complete no go.

So, there is some crisis of conscious possibility for the priest. Are all witches bad? He did save my life. Did Isis send him to save my life? etc. I also recommended the witch tell the priest that he heard a woman's voice telling him to save the priest. The most beautiful and majestic voice has has ever heard.

On the bad side, the witch used TK Forcefield, and Pyrokenisis (or likely the dog did) as well as energy bolt and Heal Wounds. No one person could do both. So those PCs with a view of those proceedings are even more aware of the nature of the man.

-Vek
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Veknironth wrote:Well, the Familiar Link was the original problem. Sure that explains the "seeing through the dog eyes" problem but the dog is too big. I've been pushing for the guy and the GM to flesh out the patron so that there could be some mitigating history, but I don't know if they've done that yet.

I agree the size is a problem, but the dog size could always be put down to something like an error at creation if you get my meaning.

I know you don't want a Megaversal answer and am doing my best to avoid them, but the Link weight limit might be avoidable IF we're talking something like it being delivered via a Techno-Wizard Device. Now obviously TW isn't part of the PF setting, but magic items are a thing, so I guess the main question then would be can you make said magic item(s) with Familiar Link and how would the spell parameters be altered.

Another option is the dog has/had been enchanted via Weightlessness Spell (possible with Permeance Rune) so to fall w/n the weight limit. This may or may not be legal depending on your GM.

Veknironth wrote:On the bad side, the witch used TK Forcefield, and Pyrokenisis (or likely the dog did) as well as energy bolt and Heal Wounds. No one person could do both. So those PCs with a view of those proceedings are even more aware of the nature of the man.

At first I wanted to say that a Psi-Mystic should have been able to do select Super Psionics along with Magic. But after checking you're right I was thinking of the Rifts version of the class. Though w/n the PF setting there might be a race/class combo that can perform such a feat but I do not know of any off hand.

Metagaming wise TK:FF and PK are psionic, though in game said powers might be mistaken for Spells (TK:FF as Energy FF, PK several different spells though it depends on just what PK feats we're trying to justify) and might provide a way out in-game wise. Though if in-game they are presented as Psi-powers and not spells, well...

Really the PC seems to have dug themselves into a deeper hole, one that is likely going to have to be addressed by backstory type options and not trying to find way to make them more agreeable via a class.

An idea has occurred to me that would involve Rune Weapons/Items. If the PC had a Rune Item (Greater) they could select two abilities from the list (pg250-2 PF2E) which are: Wizard Magic, Elemental, Healing/Cleric, and Psionic (from Sensitive, Physical, and Super cats). That would at least solve the issue of displayed powers mentioned so far, aside from the Link. They are just hiding the fact they have a Rune Item or some other magic item(s) that grant them a range of abilities. Something like this wouldn't be far from the truth per say, it's just the not the items presented but...
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Re: Witch Passing

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Veknironth wrote:Well, I missed one important piece of information. The witch said he could see through the dog's eyes. That's much more damning than merely communicating.

Greetings and Salutations. Yeah, that definitely gets harder to explain with other possibilities. The custom spell remains an option, and I was mostly just thinking of something like Familiar Link: Greater as an explanation. Something rare, but still sounds semi-plausible.

Veknironth wrote:There were Lore:Magic rolls made successfully. That's a GM descretion for how much information on the spell you'd have.

Oh, cool! People made successful skill checks and the G.M. granted the info. That's just something I often see glossed over by some.

Veknironth wrote:I thought telepathy needed some sort of spoken language, which would rule out communicating with a simple animal. Also, why have Commune with Animals when Telepathy does the same thing? (I know, because Palladium).

I agree with you in concept. I've just seen some G.M. who are a bit more permissive. As an individual, I also tend to have a Language skill required, and people tend to think in their native language (so if the NPC had Dwarven as the native language, unless you had Language: Dwarven you wouldn't be able to understand the character's thoughts). Though I also know others use it as a universal translator, and Palladium doesn't go into specifics as far as I know. As such, your mileage may vary, and I just wanted to throw out other possible options.

Veknironth wrote:The idea of having lied about the dog is interesting. It's so obvious I can't believe none of us thought of it. Now, there would need to be another lie as to how he was able to know the things he knew, but that's easy. The hard part is explaining why he told the curious lie of being able to see through the dog's eyes when he couldn't. Any suggestions anyone? He told us he saw someone leaving a taven quickly as we entered. Like I said, he really messed up by going to the "see through the dog's eyes" as the first thing.

Well, if I was the player, I would potentially be lying for 1 of 2 reasons. Both of them come down to: I don't want you to know the truth.

When I play rogue-like characters, I tend to keep secrets. So, for example, I might be a thief who doesn't want the other players to know. I use my guild resources from time to time, and a guildmate may occasionally feed me information (this includes speaking in code in front of other players that turns a mundane conversation to others into a way of secretly passing info). I don't want the others to know I'm a thief and I definitely don't want them to know about my guild (don't compromise the entire order!), so I try to pass my pet dog off as a Familiar.

Now, maybe I make the mistake of weight limit without realizing it (or hoping others wouldn't). Now they caught me in this lie, so what do I do? As an individual, I'd probably double down on my lies, a la Joker from Dark Knight (Heath Ledger). "Do you wanna know how I got these scars?" I keep changing the story to the point you know I'm lying, but you can't tell what is truth and what is a lie. This would make my character untrustworthy, but it would also make it harder for you to really figure if I'm a witch, a thief, or something else entirely. Preferably, keeping the lies as playful as possible so that, while they don't trust me, they don't have much of a reason to doubt my motives. "Okay, he's lying and clearly keeping secrets, but he doesn't seem like too bad of a guy. I think we can at least trust that our motivations align."

Note: If the players were already suspicious and I've been caught in a lie giving them doubts, then as an individual I'd probably also work to drop clues that the group could use to follow up and learn the "truth," which is to say the lie that suits my needs the best. So, for example, I'm a witch trying to pretend to be a thief. I'd try to get the group to hear rumors of a known thief hideout. They could follow me (without my knowledge, really) to this hideout, and maybe find some questionable loot in some of my supplies (or some "stolen loot" accidently slips out of my gear as I quickly try to cover it up) and deny it (more lies ... though technically this time it's the truth).

The character could try to argue that they lied to cover up having something like a rune weapon (which could have both abilities), but this can be easily proven if used an excuse. But lying to hide the presence of one would make sense, as rune weapons are extremely valuable and you don't want to just brag about having one (unless you want a lot of unwanted attention). However, once used as an excuse for the lie, it would be hard to use it as an excuse to NOT show the same people you just told about it. Maybe if the character made a weapon and carved some fake runes into it. Cast a minor enchantment on it (like color) will help the illusion, and make it magical to something like See Aura. I believe that color is also one of the cheaper enchantments.

Veknironth wrote:But while the priest was unconscious, the witch healed him and brought him back out of the coma. When the priest attempted to heal someone else, Isis initially did not grant the boon. Warning shot I guess. Also, the priest tried to heal the witch but that was a complete no go.

So, there is some crisis of conscious possibility for the priest. Are all witches bad? He did save my life. Did Isis send him to save my life? etc. I also recommended the witch tell the priest that he heard a woman's voice telling him to save the priest. The most beautiful and majestic voice has has ever heard.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the witch heals the priest. As a result, Isis denies the user of a prayer (healing) as a warning, and Isis absolutely refuses to let the priest heal the witch.

If Isis sent the witch to help, why would Isis deny healing to the witch? I'm not sure I can see the logic that Isis is suggesting to trust the witch. This, to me, comes off very strongly that the priest has to choose: Isis or the witch.

Anyway, sounds like the player is making it harder and harder to explain away the possibility of a witch. And if Isis is really giving an ultimatum, then it sounds like the group will probably need to pick soon. I still figured to give a response to the earlier question and idea. Good luck. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, the story he was going with was that he and his family escaped from the Middle Kingdoms to the Tarldet Plains. He father helped some wizard escape and this person tried to teach the witch the ways of magic. The father forbid it, but the wizard bonded the witch to his favorite puppy and they have been together since. He does have psychic abilities but hasn't called himself a mind mage. So, most of the powers he has exhibited (which likely come from the dog) are psionics. And the familiar link is from someone casting a spell; either a better familiar link or a loophole with the animal being a puppy. Either would, I think, require a second lore roll. And if we fail the lore rolls then maybe we believe it.

But, then there was all of the super psionics as well as energy bolt, and heal wounds.

I think his best bet is to say he's a good witch with a aberrant lord, say he has been commanded to help, or just make a theological argument of "why is my supernatural being giving me direction bad but your supernatural being giving you direction good?". He could seem a better, more forgiving person than the dogmatic priest.

-Vek
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

What god/demon/deevil does the witch serve?
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Re: Witch Passing

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I think it might be moot. The priest seems to have recieved orders from Isis to do something bad to the "abomination". But to answer Od's question, I don't think it has been determined just yet. It's just some unknown entity.

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