superior bows

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Veknironth
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superior bows

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I was thinking of what else could be done with bows without using magic. The obvious one is the Odysseus/Telemachus extra strong bow. It takes more strength to pull it back and thus it fires the arrow with greater velocity. The obvious is to make it add someone's strength bonus, but I had a different idea. With the greater arrow velocity, it will have greater penetration. So, you could have a bow for people with an 18 or higher that offers either a reduction in the AR for the target or just simply adds a bonus to strike. I think the AR is more specific, because I don't think this should help for a called shot. So, my questionsa are:

1. Has this been done already, and if so would someone like to show me their work?
2. If not, does this sound workable?
3. If so, what would be a good price? I was thinking of the increase from the Dwarven bonus to strike/parry on a hand to hand weapon.

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Re: superior bows

Unread post by kiralon »

Light arbalest: Damage: 2D6. Range: 740 feet (225 m).
Weight: 7.5 Ibs (3.4 kg). Cost: 100 gold, plus 30 gold per dozen bolts.
Medium arbalest: Damage: 3D6. Range: 1,090 feet (332
m). Weight: 12 Ibs (5.4 kg). Cost: 150 gold plus 35 gold per dozen bolts.
Heavy arbalest: Damage: 4D6. Range: 1,400 feet (426.7 m)
Weight: 18 Ibs (8.0 kg). Cost: 200 gold plus 40 gold per dozen bolts.

Arbalests, springals and ballista do not get bonuses to penetrate armour, and in fact get negatives if the person is moving. So having a bigger bow would be doubtful to do so by palladium rules.

Personally house ruled
Siege weapons ignore armour, and are open ended roles against normal sized or smaller. (Roll a 6 then roll again, keep adding)
Strongbows - Can be tailored to the wielder so they get their strength bonus - takes special ammunition as well (longer heavier arrows x2 cost for ammo), if you aren't the person the bow is made for you get -2 to strike, plus -1 per PS point that you are lower.
Warbows - Metal bows or metal inlay with blades at the end, can be used to parry and strike using wp spear or wp staff

Besse Mauler - An arbalest effectively that uses wp crossbow, does 5d6 damage per bolt, criticals are x3 vs larger than man size. Takes Strength roles to reload, 1 strength roll per action. Roll 1d10, Add PS, when the number cumulatively gets to 100 you have reloaded. Supernatural strength counts as PSx2.

Triple Crossbow. A three rack crossbow in one. takes 2 actions to reload each xbow or 1 if you have a ps of 24 or higher or 4 if yyou have a ps of 10 or lower.
shoots 3 bolts at -1 to strike per bolt, but its only 1 roll to strike no matter how many bolts you fire at once.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

There are in the published text bows stated out to a certain PS score minimum. Which give that PS scores PS damage bonus.

Long ago in another century/millennium, published a weapons compendium. The weapons section is usable with the PB games.
They contain multiple types of: Knives, swords, hafted weapons, spears, Polearms, bow, crossbows/arbalests, some siege weapons, Armors, and Castles.
(Note: currently the compendiums are split into three different smaller books. At one time each of those books were combined into one book.)

In the PB store they are in the special items menu at the bottom of the list.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Prysus »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are in the published text bows stated out to a certain PS score minimum. Which give that PS scores PS damage bonus.

Greetings and Salutations. Do you (or anyone else) happen to know where some of these examples might be located?

I've been debating about various rules to cover this sort of thing, so if something already exists that would save me some effort. Any help is appreciated. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I do think they were mentioned in the isle of the cyclops......*goes and looks*

EDIT: I couldn't find any in the PF books I looked in. However, I know there are such bows (rated for SN PS Scores) in the rifts game.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Veknironth wrote: So, you could have a bow for people with an 18 or higher that offers either a reduction in the AR for the target or just simply adds a bonus to strike.

Rifts World Book 9 South America 2's Larhold Barbarians (end of the book, requires a SN PS no conversion to other PS types, damage is based on PS punch damage IIRC)
Rifts World Book 15 Spirit West has non-magical bows in the tech section (they have regular PS requirements, and are similar to WB26 below though with different values)
Rifts World Book 26 Dinosaur Swamp's Steel Tree weapons include bows (technically non SN PS scores provided), a damage boost that is twice as potent as a Long Bow when firing SDC arrows (it can do comparable MD using MDC materials).

This would be the megaversal precedent AFAIK, PS requirement grants damage bonus.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Prysus »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I do think they were mentioned in the isle of the cyclops......*goes and looks*

EDIT: I colluding find any in the PF books I looked in. However, I know there are such bows (rated for SN PS Scores) in the rifts game.

Greetings and Salutations. I appreciate you looking all the same. :ok:

ShadowLogan wrote:Rifts World Book 9 South America 2's Larhold Barbarians (end of the book, requires a SN PS no conversion to other PS types, damage is based on PS punch damage IIRC)

Page 186, under "Weapons" of the Larhold Barbarian. So it translates Punch Damage into weapon damage +6. Interesting, but not the most useful for PF (not a personal criticism as it's good to have all info, just an analysis).

ShadowLogan wrote:Rifts World Book 15 Spirit West has non-magical bows in the tech section (they have regular PS requirements, and are similar to WB26 below though with different values)

Page 203, NA-SW4 M.D.C. Bow. Compound bow damage +3D6 (5D6+1) and requires a P.S. of 35 to properly use. Range is 1500 ft.

ShadowLogan wrote:Rifts World Book 26 Dinosaur Swamp's Steel Tree weapons include bows (technically non SN PS scores provided), a damage boost that is twice as potent as a Long Bow when firing SDC arrows (it can do comparable MD using MDC materials).

Page 79. The description mentions 4D6, but the damage section specifies double the damage listed under the W.P. section. That would be 2D6 for a short bow and 4D6 for a long now. Requires a P.S. of 21. Range is also increased (how much depends on the bow type).

Veknironth wrote:... but I had a different idea. With the greater arrow velocity, it will have greater penetration. So, you could have a bow for people with an 18 or higher that offers either a reduction in the AR for the target or just simply adds a bonus to strike. I think the AR is more specific, because I don't think this should help for a called shot.

Granting a strike bonus also means the character is less likely to miss in general. I wouldn't recommend that solution.

I think the concept of damage AND range increase works well. But, if you are really set on the A.R. effect ...

I think it affecting A.R. directly is problematic. I took some tries at this in the past, but it always became more and more wordy to make it clear. So, for example, you have to make sure it's clear it's only effectively reducing the A.R. for this one attack, but not permanently chamging the A.R. (ignoring A.R., not damaging A.R.). This also requires more math. While not difficult math, every bit slows the game down just a bit more and is just one more thing to keep track of. So I'd avoid this in fabor of keeping things simple.

If going with something like this, maybe just go the way of Penetration Value (P.V.) from Modern Weapons Compendium. So just grant, for example, a P.S. 18 bow a P.V. of 6, which means any armor with a A.R. of 6 or less is ignored. A P.S. of 30 might get as high as a P.V. of 17 (or 18) which would bypass most armor in the world.

Just my thoughts in the matter. Hope they help. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Using special woods ....maybe the Yellow Wood from Eastern Territories could be used to make Str. rated bows on the PF world. It isn't listed as such, even thou that is not exactly what has been listed there.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by kiralon »

Same with everalls bows, but his also shoot further and and do +3 damage and his arrows go a further 40ft and are +1 to strike, and they don't have any ps minimum.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Prysus wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Rifts World Book 9 South America 2's Larhold Barbarians (end of the book, requires a SN PS no conversion to other PS types, damage is based on PS punch damage IIRC)

Page 186, under "Weapons" of the Larhold Barbarian. So it translates Punch Damage into weapon damage +6. Interesting, but not the most useful for PF (not a personal criticism as it's good to have all info, just an analysis).

Actually there is another version with a different damage bonus, but they both work via SN PS rating, that can be found on Pg190. I agree it is not the most useful for PF, but it is a Strength Based Bow which is why I included it.

Prysus wrote:If going with something like this, maybe just go the way of Penetration Value (P.V.) from Modern Weapons Compendium. So just grant, for example, a P.S. 18 bow a P.V. of 6, which means any armor with a A.R. of 6 or less is ignored. A P.S. of 30 might get as high as a P.V. of 17 (or 18) which would bypass most armor in the world.

This was my first thought to on Vek's query, that it mechanically amounts to utilizing Penetration Value (IIRC the mechanic) but there is no defined way to work it in AFAIK. For the most part Palladium seems to have abandoned the concept (lack of use/mention AFAIK) and seems to favor just granting it increased damage if the examples in Rifts are anything to go by.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

kiralon wrote:Same with everalls bows, but his also shoot further and and do +3 damage and his arrows go a further 40ft and are +1 to strike, and they don't have any ps minimum.

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Onigaishimasu
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Prysus »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
kiralon wrote:Same with everalls bows, but his also shoot further and and do +3 damage and his arrows go a further 40ft and are +1 to strike, and they don't have any ps minimum.

Location?
Onigaishimasu

Geeetings and Salutations. Book 11: Eastern Territory, page 171 (location 4 of Greenbough). I'll note kiralon only listed the long bow version, and there's a short now version as well with slightly different stats. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Thank you
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by kiralon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
kiralon wrote:Same with everalls bows, but his also shoot further and and do +3 damage and his arrows go a further 40ft and are +1 to strike, and they don't have any ps minimum.

Location?
Onigaishimasu

The other location my longbowman players try to get to is the archery school and bows by gabriel in pallisade in the western empire
The school gives training that gives wp archery +1 strike, and targeting for very little money
Bows by gabriel gives a bow with extra range, +1 to strike and 1 extra arrow attack per melee, but if someone else uses the bow they dont get the extra apm or +1 to strike. (p 97 western empire)
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Borast »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I was thinking of what else could be done with bows without using magic. <snip>


Well, there is always the Chinese chu ko nu (repeating crossbow).
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Glistam »

One of the NPC's in Library of Bletherad has a bow that is more like a miniature siege weapon, and doen increased damage.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Library Ogre »

So, with the Fletcher OCC, did they talk at all about self bows v. laminate bows v. compound bows?
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Re: superior bows

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Mark Hall wrote:So, with the Fletcher OCC, did they talk at all about self bows v. laminate bows v. compound bows?

Nope just the bare bones of a Job Class.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Library Ogre »

So, self bows are bows made out of a single piece of wood, or, sometimes, two pieces of wood joined at the handle. They can be made in a day if you have properly seasoned wood, and resist humidity better, but are not as strong by length, not as tough (i.e. more prone to damage), and more likely to get permanently bent (which reduces strength).

Laminate bows are made of multiple pieces of wood, and often include horn or other materials, covered with a resin. That resin makes them a bit more vulnerable to humidity (the resin might dissolve, or loosen), but they are tougher, stronger by length, and maintain their shape better if they don't get too wet for too long (a dunking won't destroy them; leaving them wet a couple days will be more of a problem).

Composite bows are a type of laminate bows which use their materials to greatly enhance strength. Horn on the back (user-facing side) helps them store energy better, and have a far better draw weight for size. Composite bows are ancient, from the 2nd millenium BCE, so having them in PF is perfectly reasonable.

I'd also go into different kinds of arrowheads... broadheads which do more damage if they get through AR, armor-piercers that reduce AR, at the very least.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:So, self bows are bows made out of a single piece of wood, or, sometimes, two pieces of wood joined at the handle. They can be made in a day if you have properly seasoned wood, and resist humidity better, but are not as strong by length, not as tough (i.e. more prone to damage), and more likely to get permanently bent (which reduces strength).

...snip

Thank you for being psychic and answering that question I didn't ask, but was wondering about.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Prysus »

>
Mark Hall wrote:I'd also go into different kinds of arrowheads... broadheads which do more damage if they get through AR, armor-piercers that reduce AR, at the very least.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, fletchers make arrows and bowyers make bows, so I'm not bothered by Fletchers not going into bow details. With that said, no Bowyer O.C.C. exists (to my knowledge), and if one did I also doubt it would have had any such details.

But if you're interested in different types of arrows ...

http://www.prysus.com/weapon_customized_arrows.htm

Not official, but figured some people might use out of it. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Borast »

Prysus, point of order regarding your arrow heads...
Bodkins were made of unhardened iron, and appear to have been intended as a cheaper lighter, and *possibly* longer-range head than a broadhead.

Other than that, seems good!
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Re: superior bows

Unread post by Prysus »

Borast wrote:Prysus, point of order regarding your arrow heads...
Bodkins were made of unhardened iron, and appear to have been intended as a cheaper lighter, and *possibly* longer-range head than a broadhead.

Other than that, seems good!

Greetings and Salutations. I wrote that many years ago and can't recall all the details at this point. I do know I had talked over most of my archery and arrow info with a friend who was into archery (I actually have zero personal experience with it).

With that said, I just did a search and found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodkin_point

This talks about it being armor penetration, and that the penetration aspect works best at closer proxomities. The article also says that penetration works best with "heavy bodkin-point arrows." Now heavy could have a different meaning than weight, but with the close proximity needed for penetration (and seeming to be the primary purpose), this seems to work better with the game mechanics I noted.

Note: I don't remember the exact date I wrote that, but it should've been around 2009 when I wrote my Of Bows & Arrows article for Rifter 45. The last study in the Wikipedia article that discusses "heavy bodkin-point arrows" and being close was done in 2017. As such, the Wiki article could not have been the main source when I wrote that.

Now all I did was a quick search (today, though I suspect I did more back then). So if you have some sources, I'd be willing to check them out and re-evaluate that section.

The price change I can definitely reconsider. My thought process at the time was probably that since these are specialty arrows, they cost more instead of the standard versions. But with the decrease to damage in exchange for the armor piercing, probably not that big of a deal with price either.

Anyways, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

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Re: superior bows

Unread post by zerombr »

the tinkerer OCC in the Rifter can enhance bows
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