2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

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2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Tiltowait »

I'm hoping to get into a fantasy game soon.
And I am concerned about makiing a wrong choice and dragging the group down.

Given the radically variable power level of the game and lack of familiarity with all the combos I was curious what race/occ combinations (or even RCC's) would be among the better choices?
It looks like we'll be facing a lot of demonic/supernatural and environmental (Chaos Lands) threats with little or no support. So no 'oops we need more supplies, let's go back to town.' and the meta is we'll be tasked with rescuing VIPs.

Other than being good-aligned (I'm assuming giant-kin races like Rahu-man are out-but I could be wrong) apparently if it is official Palladium (including Rifter) content it's legal.

So far we have:
-An Imperial Janissary or he's saying dwarf mind-mage. (paired twin axe wielder?)
-A Wolfen Barbarian (paired giant sized weapons, when beserk 3/day extra attack +3 atk/+8 damage)
-A Changeling Wizard
-An Elf Warlock or Changeling Thief

We will be starting at level 1.

I do not want to play a healbot (Priest of Light) though it appears we may need one. Hopefully we'll be assigned an NPC one if it comes to that.
I like psychics however if we already have one, I probably won't make another. With a barbarian...from what I hear we'll have the melee size pretty well covered and 2 arcanists should have the magic side?

So what would be recommended? Maybe Warrior-Monk? I'm most familiar with the core book content and while he'll be outshined by the barbarian the monk also does have a few skills which I hope could contribute. Though I don't know which race would suit. Or maybe a second wizard to get as many spell coverage as possible? The Rogue Eandroth Female sounds cool...but I hear it's quite cold where we may be going and she'd likely turn into a lizard-cicle.

Or any suggestions welcome and thanks! :mrgreen:
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Ranger or longbowman are always fun; Wolfen are great Longbowmen, since they shoot a bloody ballista bolt. A Ranger would give you the survival skills to help the party along (though some of that will come from the Barbarian, two won't hurt). A Half-wizard of each would also broaden your skill sets. An Ogre would also be a good option, though it may limit your access to psionics.

If you get psionics, consider picking healing... Healing Touch and Bio-regeneration isn't the same as a priest, but it's a very useful for the game. Your wizard might also have some healing spells, which will help.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by kiralon »

The chaos lands are rough going, i'd think about a merc fighter with minor psionics. Wide range of skills (can part fill the rogue side of things as well as fight).
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Tiltowait wrote:I'm hoping to get into a fantasy game soon.
And I am concerned about makiing a wrong choice and dragging the group down.

Given the radically variable power level of the game and lack of familiarity with all the combos I was curious what race/occ combinations (or even RCC's) would be among the better choices?
It looks like we'll be facing a lot of demonic/supernatural and environmental (Chaos Lands) threats with little or no support. So no 'oops we need more supplies, let's go back to town.' and the meta is we'll be tasked with rescuing VIPs.

Other than being good-aligned (I'm assuming giant-kin races like Rahu-man are out-but I could be wrong) apparently if it is official Palladium (including Rifter) content it's legal.

So far we have:
-An Imperial Janissary or he's saying dwarf mind-mage. (paired twin axe wielder?)
-A Wolfen Barbarian (paired giant sized weapons, when beserk 3/day extra attack +3 atk/+8 damage)
-A Changeling Wizard
-An Elf Warlock or Changeling Thief

We will be starting at level 1.

I do not want to play a healbot (Priest of Light) though it appears we may need one. Hopefully we'll be assigned an NPC one if it comes to that.
I like psychics however if we already have one, I probably won't make another. With a barbarian...from what I hear we'll have the melee size pretty well covered and 2 arcanists should have the magic side?

So what would be recommended? Maybe Warrior-Monk? I'm most familiar with the core book content and while he'll be outshined by the barbarian the monk also does have a few skills which I hope could contribute. Though I don't know which race would suit. Or maybe a second wizard to get as many spell coverage as possible? The Rogue Eandroth Female sounds cool...but I hear it's quite cold where we may be going and she'd likely turn into a lizard-cicle.

Or any suggestions welcome and thanks! :mrgreen:


You have plenty of choices that shouldn't drag your group down. The only O.C.C.'s I'd recommend steering clear of in 2nd Edition are the Druid and Psychic Healer. The Psychic Sensitive is a little on the lame side, but since no-one else gets those sensory powers, at least they're not outclassed in their own specialties.

As I see it, you have four things to keep in mind beyond the other classes :
1. Must be useful in fights against demons.
2. Must require little support/supplies
3. Must be good-aligned
4. Will be rescuing VIPs.

So far, you have two strong melee fighters, a sneaky wizard (all changelings are inherently sneaky), and either a warlock or a sneaky thief. That's a pretty good array, and you have a lot of viable choices. Here are my thoughts:

+If a lot of the adventure is going to be outdoors/wilderness, the Ranger is a good choice. With the right skill selections, you can be pretty self-sufficient. Canine races make good Rangers with their tracking abilities. You could also make an Elf ranger from the Vequerrel Woodlands in Western Empire; they get some archery bonuses. Or you could make a female human from the Seven Sisters colony in Northern Hinterlands; they get some nice bonuses/perks too (even/especially if you take a non-wilderness kind of O.C.C.).
+You might consider taking a class that focuses on ceremonial magic. Summoners and diabolists can be crazy powerful and help to decipher texts, circles, and weird written stuff. Summoners who like to summon and enslave minions need a high M.E., so pick your race accordingly. Diabolists and most magic users benefit most from a high P.E. (better saves and more P.P.E.).
+A Mind Mage could be a good choice for rounding out the party. You get some powerful and versatile abilities and the ability to counter enemy psychics. Races with high M.E.'s are good choices here.
+If you plan on doing much adventuring by sea, look at the Bizantium O.C.C.'s; they're quite strong (Bizantium Marine is on par with the Janissary), and the Bizantium Lighter is the best adventurer's ship in the game (small, fast, doesn't need many people, can haul tons of cargo).
+If you want some anti-demon melee attacks, the Warrior Monk and Palladin are pretty good.

I can help you optimize more if you can pick a specific path/character concept.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

A lot of OCCs can be customized with backstory and skill selection. what about a priest of light that specializes more in repelling/slaying monsters and demons than in healing?
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I need to ask first, do you want to make a combat beast or are you more worried about utility? Also, are we just going straight min/max munchkin?

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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I need to ask first, do you want to make a combat beast or are you more worried about utility? Also, are we just going straight min/max munchkin?

-Vek
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I would like to see your "really overpowered ideas."
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Tiltowait wrote:I'm hoping to get into a fantasy game soon.
And I am concerned about makiing a wrong choice and dragging the group down.

Given the radically variable power level of the game and lack of familiarity with all the combos I was curious what race/occ combinations (or even RCC's) would be among the better choices?
It looks like we'll be facing a lot of demonic/supernatural and environmental (Chaos Lands) threats with little or no support. So no 'oops we need more supplies, let's go back to town.' and the meta is we'll be tasked with rescuing VIPs.

Well if you want a scalable power level option for a custom race then the Random monster tables can be used for a framework. (aside:If making a race... I recommend a not totally random rolls if making up a race.) The skills options are like normal character races cause they would just take a OCC/PCC.

example of RMT option: Hyperion Cat (about half way down page 1)
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=160596
READ the Creator's Notes for HC.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Tiltowait »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. Especially hotrod for the extensive details.
Part of my decision will be up to the dice gods :) a triple 1 in the wrong stat may preclude one occ over another.

I am strongly leaning towards mind mage (if I get the stats).

Not looking for dominating combat (that’s Mr. Barbarian or Warlock’s forte.). I figure a mind mage can help debuff (evil eye), find clues for our missing folks (object read), get by guards (invis or suggestion), or over walls (levitation/tk). But MMages are pretty much bingo on skills so he will leave lores to the wizard and outdoors to the barbarian. I’ll assign some kind of domestic skill (cook!) so at least he can contribute something to the survival side of things...and if there is room, grab a healing power or two.

Ranger is also a good candidate...though not sure how that will mesh with a barb in the group.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

There are no attribute requirements for Mind Mage so you're in luck! Sounds like you've made your decision there (presuming your fellow player sticks with Janissary).

Now there's just the race to think about. Sounds like your GM is open to any race (and as you're entering the land of the damned I'm not surprised). So maybe you can choose the rahu-man you are hinting at! Or how about a good-aligned Minotaur, seeking to make amends for the crimes of their ancestors?
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Tiltowait wrote:Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. Especially hotrod for the extensive details.
Part of my decision will be up to the dice gods :) a triple 1 in the wrong stat may preclude one occ over another.

I am strongly leaning towards mind mage (if I get the stats).

Not looking for dominating combat (that’s Mr. Barbarian or Warlock’s forte.). I figure a mind mage can help debuff (evil eye), find clues for our missing folks (object read), get by guards (invis or suggestion), or over walls (levitation/tk). But MMages are pretty much bingo on skills so he will leave lores to the wizard and outdoors to the barbarian. I’ll assign some kind of domestic skill (cook!) so at least he can contribute something to the survival side of things...and if there is room, grab a healing power or two.

Ranger is also a good candidate...though not sure how that will mesh with a barb in the group.


Mind mage is a great choice. A few thoughts for you regarding skills and race:
1. Be careful what you choose as O.C.C. Related skills vs Secondary skills. You get 5 O.C.C. Related and 4 secondary skills starting out. As a general rule for any character, I recommend you take % skills as your O.C.C. Related skills. Use secondary skills for your stat-boosting physical skills, W.P.'s, and hand-to-hand upgrades. In your case, Mind Mages get so few skill bonuses in their O.C.C. skills that this doesn't matter as much.

2. Think about how you want to contribute to a fight. Sure, you will have your psionics, but you will also have to worry about your I.S.P. pool. When you need to conserve I.S.P., or when you run out, you'll have to rely on your regular combat abilities. Mind Mages get two weapon proficiencies in their O.C.C. skills.
2a. One good approach is to focus on doing as much damage as possible while the dedicated fighters keep the foe's attention. This will help your party win fights quickly and efficiently. If you want to be able to do a lot of damage fast, take W.P. Battle Axe and W.P. Paired Weapons. At level one, a dual strike will do 6D6 base damage, and at level 2, a dual strike will do 8D6 damage! Wham! The downside is that your character won't be very good on defense; parry bonuses from battle axes aren't good, and dual strikes mean you give up your automatic parry. Still, against a single foe, you can simultaneously parry/attack, and your ability to speed up combat without stealing the thunder and important role of the dedicated melee fighters is something most of the party should appreciate.
2b. Another good approach is to stay back a bit and focus on disabling attacks that give your party a major advantage in combat. For this approach, I suggest you take W.P. net and Targeting. Nets thrown one over a foe's head gives your party complete freedom to beat them down for several melees. Since that's a one-shot approach, I'd also take Use Poison and carry lots of thrown weapons (darts, for instance) smeared with one of the many disabling toxins (see the Alchemy section for details). The idea here is to stand back and make things easier for your melee fighters. W.P. Whip can also be useful for entangling your enemy's weapon arm while the fighters attack.
2c. If you want to optimize your character for melee combat, you can take 4: Athletics, Body Building, Boxing, and Running. Together these skills will up your S.D.C. enough that you shouldn't have to worry about dying quickly, and the other bonuses will help you hit more often and harder. Good races to consider for optimizing your melee fighting abilities: Wolfen (giant size, claw attacks), Dwarves (extra strength=more damage), Centaurs (giant size & combat bonuses), Rahu-Men (giant + 4 arms), and Werebeasts (immune to normal weapons, extra tough, and lots of useful natural abilities). I'd check with your GM before picking any of those last three; they're quite powerful and may create problems by having you be more effective at fighting than the dedicated fighters.

3. Some skills can be useful both inside and outside of combat. Breed Dogs can be a great way to justify having a canine companion who's useful for tracking, guarding (they're great at detecting supernatural threats), and helping in combat (pounce attacks and chomping). Horsemanship is useful for travel, early warning systems (horses are sensitive to supernatural threats), and for combat bonuses while mounted. Use Poison is handy in combat (see above) and for detecting/using poison in a non-combat scenario (drinks, food, et cetera).

4. You should also do some thinking about more mundane skills that hare handy in the party's adventuring environments, especially if others in the party don't have them.
4a. In the countryside, Cooking, botany, Land Navigation, and Wilderness Survival can help sustain your party and get them where they need to go. Kankoran and Werebeasts are good choices if you want to optimize your character for the wild.
4b. In villages, towns, and cities, you want skills that open doors and get tongues wagging. Streetwise can help you find people, and languages are obviously useful (though you already start with three). The best races for urban environments tend to be the most common ones. Humans are probably the most common overall, but having a changeling could help you fit in just about anywhere.
4c. You could also make your mind mage to be useful on sea voyages. Sailing, Astronomy & Navigation, Rope Works, Swimming, Fishing, and General Repair are all handy for sea voyages. You won't be as good as a proper sailor, pirate, or mariner, but you'll be useful. Lizard Men are a good choice for water-based adventures.

5. Finally, you might want to consider having some kind of trade, business, or specialization of other non-combat skills for your character.
5a. Consider giving your character a legitimate trade. All you need to do is take one or two skills (or take the same skill twice) to give your character the ability to make money, socialize, and give you a cover story as a useful person and not a suspicious adventurer. For example, select Art twice and be a painter, or select sewing twice and be a tailor.
5b. You could also optimize your character's trade to make him/her a into a performer/bard. The only complete category of skill you get bonuses in for your O.C.C. Related skills is Communication, so this is a fairly natural fit. Play Musical Instrument, singing, writing, public speaking). If you plan to do adventuring in or around settlements/towns, this can be useful (free room/board at inns, people like talking with you, et cetera). A high M.A. and PB are useful for this approach.
5c. You also might consider taking some skills to be a good spy/thief. Prowl, Concealment, Locate Secret Compartments/doors, Palming, Pick Locks, Pick Pockets, and Literacy are all useful for a sneaky thief or spy, and with psionics, you could be a proper terror. With the exception of the Intelligence and Literacy skills, none of these will have bonuses, but if your party lacks these abilities, they can be useful. Races that can shapeshift make excellent spies and thieves: Changelings, Goblin Cobblers, and Dwarvlings would be optimal choices.

Whatever you decide, you should probably discuss it with your GM and the other players. Have fun creating your character!
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

As a comment on Hotrod's suggested skills selections, it looks like the dwarf janissary is already planning to be twin axe wielder, so I would focus on something different for yours - every mind mage should take W.P. sword for their psi-sword! And you could select W.P. shield if you're interested in selecting that power too.

Instead of lots of physical skills, you might want to choose psychic powers that will help you stay alive - instead of body building take summon inner strength. Bio-regeneration (normal or super) will help you recover for the next fight (as long as you survive the first one!). And telekinesis will enable you to strike with a +3 and parry with a +4 way before your W.P. bonuses reach that point - possibly from a safe distance too!

I'm guessing that in the land of the damned suppress fear will be very handy! And healing touch, psychic surgery, presence sense, sixth sense, commune with and dispel spirits, group mind block and cure insanity could all be useful.

And pick prowl - you will definitely need to hide!
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Soldier of Od wrote:As a comment on Hotrod's suggested skills selections, it looks like the dwarf janissary is already planning to be twin axe wielder, so I would focus on something different for yours - every mind mage should take W.P. sword for their psi-sword! And you could select W.P. shield if you're interested in selecting that power too.

Instead of lots of physical skills, you might want to choose psychic powers that will help you stay alive - instead of body building take summon inner strength. Bio-regeneration (normal or super) will help you recover for the next fight (as long as you survive the first one!). And telekinesis will enable you to strike with a +3 and parry with a +4 way before your W.P. bonuses reach that point - possibly from a safe distance too!

I'm guessing that in the land of the damned suppress fear will be very handy! And healing touch, psychic surgery, presence sense, sixth sense, commune with and dispel spirits, group mind block and cure insanity could all be useful.

And pick prowl - you will definitely need to hide!

I think the first player is an Imperial Janissary OR a Dwarf Mind-Mage. Can Janissaries be Dwarves? I always thought of them as being human given the Western Empire's emphasis as the "Throne of Humanity," but I don't see anything in Western Empire that says they must be. That said, given the Janissary focus on fighting formations, it seems reasonable that they'd have to be roughly the same size, which would make things difficult for a Dwarf Janissary.

I don't much care for the Psi-Sword ability myself; it takes a full melee round to summon, it can't be paired, and it takes until level 9 to beat what you can do at level 2 with paired axes (median damage 26 per dual strike), damage-wise. For the same ISP, you can hurl 300-lb objects that do 3D4x10 (median damage 75). For comparison, at level 15, a Psi-Sword will do 14D6, for a median of 49 points of damage per hit. Telekinesis also doesn't require you to be in melee range. Where having a W.P. knife or sword could be very handy would be the Catatonic Strike power.

As for the physical skills, it really all depends on how you want to build your character. You can use those powers in addition to physical skills and become quite tough. Many skills and psychic powers exist to do similar tasks. I'd encourage you to consider which ones are redundant (no appreciable advantage to taking both), which ones are reinforcing (one can work if the other fails), and which ones are complimentary (taking both helps).
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, if you want to stick with Mind Mage, it's probably the most powerful class in the game. By level 5, you will have ALL of the main book psionic powers. At first level, you get something like 16 powers. You can do as Hotrod suggested and take W.P. Paired weapons, a WP, and H2H skill and be as good in a fight as anyone else. You can supplement hand to hand combat ability in two ways. The first is to take a giant character which will have a higher strength and have an extra die of damage on the weapons. The second is one of the many races that allows for additional attacks per melee just for the race. The Rahu-man would fit both of these and would make your character into a veritable superhero. The Jeridu is also an option, although I do not have them in front of me so I don't know about them being a Mind Mage. Side note, Jeridu do NOT get 96 attacks around. They just get an additional 4 attacks total, which is enough. My source for this is Bill Coffin.

Now, if you want to focus more on the psionics portion, and this might make the charcter different from the others, then I have the perfect race for you. Play a Female Eandroth Rogue Mind Mage. It's in the Baalgor Wastelands book pgs 32-25. Why? Well, for starters, they get 2d6x10 + 140 ISP. That is not a typo. That's an average of 210 ISP. You'd have to be proflagarate in your use of ISP to run out of that. Look at the skills they get for their race, it's on page 33 and all of these have bonuses: Wilderness Survival, Land Navigtion, Dowsing, Track and Trap Animals, First Aid, Cook, Sewing, Sing, and Skin and Prepare Animal Hides. They don't need much water to survive. They have a heat point power. They get Sense Evil for free. They will have 3d6x10 PPE (for what?). They get an extra attack per melee, have an AR of 12, get 10 extra HP, and will have a starting SDC of (1d4 + 1d6) x10. Oh and then there are the stats. You get to roll them as a regular Eandroth and have the ability to get high rolls (or low ones), and then when you become a rogue you get additional dice to IQ, MA, ME, and PE. There is a downside. Your character will be obese.

As for powers, Hotrod is correct about Psi-Sword. It sounds cool but it's a waste. You can take Healing Touch and Bio Regenerate to be an out of combat healer. The third healing power, is sort of up to you. Psychinc surgery sounds nice but there's not game mechanic for it. Everything is SDC/HP so the other two powers are all you need, unless your GM has other ideas. For Sensitive, you go with Sixth Sense, Telepathy, and another of your choice. Object Read can be useful, although maybe not in the Chaos Lands. Presence Sense is a good one to consider. For Physical, Nightvision is good as well as any of the Imperviousness (especially Cold since Eandroth don't like cold). Levitation is very useful as well. For the supers, take TK Forcefield, Pyronekinesis, and TK Super. You can pour ISP into telekinesis and use the environment as your weapon. With 6th sense and TK Forcefield, you will almost never be in danger if a direct line attack. Pryokinesis lets you cast 5d6 fireballs at 1st level, as well as undodgable walls and pillars of fire that do 6d6 damage.

The only problem with playing this class is resisting the urge to do everything. You'll be able to throw up a TK Forcefield and be immune to all attacks except for clouds that are cast inside it. You will trounce the mages in damage. They'll be able to cast firebolt twice around and do 10d6 damage. You could have 6 attacks a round with Boxing, which would equate to 30d6 damage from fireballs, or 36d6 damage from pillars of flame. Or, as Hotrod said, you can throw rocks around the battlefield and demolish everything without having to use any attacks on defense if you have a forcefield up. That's at 1st level! If you make it to second level, you can add Mind Bolt which could do a devastating amount of damage with a +8 to strike, depending on how much of your collossal ISP reserve you want to burn through and how quickly.

Side note, sending 1st level characters in the Chaos Lands seems rough. That's not the sort of place to find newbies. If you get more than one level, or perhaps a set amount of EXP, then have anyone who can start as a Scholar Monk, and then transition to whatever OCC is next. They'll start with an automatic dodge, which I'm sure you can see the advantage.

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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by kiralon »

A Jeridu psionicist would be best, as the extra arms let you use your psionic abilities more often in a round, and one thing to remember about psi sword is that you can never be fully disarmed. if the party gets captured, you will always have a weapon, and as psionicists get 2 isp per hour minimum no matter what, you can arm yourself fairly easily at any time.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Yeah, female Eandroth Rogues are insane. Their average starting ISP is equal to the maximum human starting ISP (M.E. of 30 + 180, which requires 8 consecutive 6's), and the bonuses... well, I honestly don't understand why the Eandroth haven't conquered the world.

For most adventuring scenarios, I'd stick to the races in the basic book. However, if you're starting in the Chaos Lands, I'd throw caution to the wind. Sure, take a Jeridu and hex-wield axes for 24d6 per strike (and they can be mind mages, I just checked), or be a Rahu-Man, and quad-wield for 20D6 + (your giant P.S. bonus)x4 ! Or take a Werebeast and laugh off every non-magical attack. Or make a female Eandroth Rogue and have double the normal I.S.P. and lots of special bonuses/abilities to boot! The Land of the Damned is a crazy place to adventure, so you might as well build a crazy powerful character for it.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well for a quick Jeridu calming, I don't think they can hex strike. They have 6 arms, which are broken into three groups of two. So they could do a double strike with and of the three pairs, but not all at once.

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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

kiralon wrote:A Jeridu psionicist would be best, ...snip


Jeridu.... :twisted: my favorite race-class idea for Jeridu is to pair them up with the "Juggler/Knife Thrower" OCC. Just think of it with the Jeridu's natural ability to use each of their arms at the same time. Six knives throw at targets with just one APM use. Some people might dispute this statement, but reading the text "as is" saying something different is just saying a house rule.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

A Jeridu at 2nd level doing a hex strike with hex-mastercrafted battle axes (+8 to damage): 24D6+48 damage... median damage would be 132 per attack, and they get 4 extra attacks per melee. It's fun to think about, but it's also good example of why I generally generally ignore the existence of Jeridu as written.
Last edited by Hotrod on Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Hotrod wrote:A hex strike with hex-mastercrafted battle axes: 24D6+48 damage... median damage would be 132 per attack, and they get lots of attacks per melee. It's fun to think about, but it's also good example of why I generally generally ignore the existence of Jeridu as written.

I sort of agree with the basic sentiment, & is the reason I've never played one.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

Assuming some of the op-tier species such as Jeridu, Kildred, Lizard Mages et al are perhaps a bit excessive, here are some fun combos with an eye towards a game in the Chaos Lands:

A Skage has a nice selection of native psionics (some healing, several -kineses, and a couple of immunities), and several decent classes available. If you as a player aren't wanting to step too much on the Wizard or Warlock players' toes then something like a Half-Wizard Monk or Druid would let you cover a lot of bases.

A Maledon Wardancer (either Ranger or Gladiator, most likely) gets several natural attacks, an A.R. of 13, and a number of bonuses in combat in addition to those from an OCC.

If the game will be spending any time near the Sea of Dread in the region then a couple of species become even more fun. Zaranceti get considerable boosts underwater, have a rapport with Sea Serpents, and have any OCC available, while still functioning normally on land. A Dwarvling has limited shapechanging (sea lizards or anything dwarven), has some native warlock spells, immunity to electricity, and adds their PPE score of 2d4x10 +PE to that gained by a practicioner of magic class. That's enough to make a Summoner pretty viable, or a Diabolist ship captain.

Rifter 50 has the Zodiac Mage. It's limited to Elves, Humans, and Wolfen, and grants access to a group of spells essentially otherwise unavailable (Forsaken Mages notwithstanding), while getting invocation access at a higher PPE cost than for a Wizard. In addition, there's a summon and additional spell access based on the character's zodiac sign. If this class interests you I'd find out what element(s) the Warlock player is selecting.

Rifter 70 has the Frost Mage. It's a good choice for an Ogre or Wolfen, and is a Wizard with a bit of Wilderness Survival and an emphasis on snow and ice. I'd have to go through the skill list to be certain, but a Wizard doesn't give up much if anything to be a Frost Mage.

If Optional Rifter stuff is possibly available, check out the Blade Mage in Rifter 23. They have a bunch of low PPE cost effects unique to them which mostly involve enchanting/manipulating weapons. They do have a low PPE base, so combining it with a species that adds to that such as Elves or Dwarvlings is a real boost.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Tiltowait »

Wow. I decided on a dwarf because they were straightforward. I had considered Eandroth but figured there were a bad match for the climate...but if we get wiped early then yeah I will probably ‘upgrade.’

Skill-wise I went with boxing/running, cooking, wilderness survival, land nav, demon lore. dwarf gives field armorer and gemology so he’ll have some out of combat utility. I will find a way to squeeze in prowl...

As it turned out my stats were low to average which meant no go on longbow, ranger, so mind mage was it. Though PS came in high (22 before phys skills).

Oh how did you guys get 6 (psi) attacks per round with boxing? HTH Basic is 2, Boxing is +1 for 3. Or does Paired Weapons = 2x attack carry over to psi? Or was this another race (Rahu-Man) or such?

My power selection had already pretty much matched the recommendations. Healing Touch, Regen, Sixth Sense. However I thought Bio-Manip (Evil Eye) and Invisibility (Inv Haze) would be good for deuffing and scouting/avoiding being a target. But status effect ‘smoldering ashes or vapors’ is better than stunned. I also thought Object Reading would be handy. Our goal is to rescue some prisoners and I hoped the power could be used to help locate where they are.
I like the versatility of Pyrok...but it is very expensive to use as a nuke (25 per fireball). I will take another look.

I took a look at the Jeridu. I think a Jeridu or Eandroth will be the replacement if my dwarf gets et...

EDIT: The GM has banned all occs/races from Land of the Damned book. So we'll be dealing with the content in the book but not allowed to use any of the content for our benefit. :D This is fine I was finding the races in there to be a bit over the top...
And the current roster is (if you folks are curious):
Finn, Dwarven Mind-Mage (me)
Imperial Janissary Race unknown.
Changeling Thief / Elf Warlock (undecided)
Barbarian Wolfen Diabolist
Changeling Wizard Traveling Priest (Race unknown) instead.
Last edited by Tiltowait on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Tiltowait wrote:Wow. I decided on a dwarf because they were straightforward. I had considered Eandroth but figured there were a bad match for the climate...but if we get wiped early then yeah I will probably ‘upgrade.’

Skill-wise I went with boxing/running, cooking, wilderness survival, land nav, demon lore. dwarf gives field armorer and gemology so he’ll have some out of combat utility. I will find a way to squeeze in prowl...

As it turned out my stats were low to average which meant no go on longbow, ranger, so mind mage was it. Though PS came in high (22 before phys skills).

Oh how did you guys get 6 (psi) attacks per round with boxing? HTH Basic is 2, Boxing is +1 for 3. Or does Paired Weapons = 2x attack carry over to psi? Or was this another race (Rahu-Man) or such?

My power selection had already pretty much matched the recommendations. Healing Touch, Regen, Sixth Sense. However I thought Bio-Manip (Evil Eye) and Invisibility (Inv Haze) would be good for deuffing and scouting/avoiding being a target. But status effect ‘smoldering ashes or vapors’ is better than stunned. I also thought Object Reading would be handy. Our goal is to rescue some prisoners and I hoped the power could be used to help locate where they are.
I like the versatility of Pyrok...but it is very expensive to use as a nuke (25 per fireball). I will take another look.

I took a look at the Jeridu. I think a Jeridu or Eandroth will be the replacement if my dwarf gets et...

Those are very reasonable selections for your O.C.C. Related skills. Now you should take your (I think 4 for Mind mages) Secondary Skills. They get no bonuses (other than IQ), but are otherwise identical to O.C.C. Related. This is how you can squeeze in Prowl and a few more. If you decide on another skill that would get a bonus if selected as an O.C.C. Related skill, just swap it for any of the skills you've already taken that don't include a bonus.

Stat-wise, a P.S. of 22 is a great start for the max-damage approach I mentioned earlier (your O.C.C. gets 2 W.P.'s, which you take as W.P. Paired Weapons and W.P. Battle Axe). If you throw in Body Building and Athletics as secondary skills, your physical skills will bump your P.S. to 27, which will add +12 to damage with every strike. At level 1, a dual-strike with a pair of regular battle axes will do 6D6+24, with a median damage of 45; At level 2, a dual strike with a pair of regular battle axes will do 8D6+24, with a median damage of 52! If you take this path, I recommend prioritizing anything else you can get to buff your strength or provide damage.

You also may want to consider spending two skills on improving your hand-to-hand to Expert. It's not essential; there's little difference at lower levels, but at higher levels, Expert will give you some extra perks and better bonuses. If you want to optimize for the best bonuses later on, I'd hold off on getting Body Building and Athletics in favor of improving your Hand-to-Hand to Expert or even Martial Arts; those other skills provide the same bonuses no matter what level you take them, whereas you're pretty much locked into your hand-to-hand at level 1.

Once you've sorted out all your skill selections, The next thing you should do is get the best, most-damaging axes you can afford. A standard battle axe is 40 gold, and a dwarven one with +4 to damage is 240 gold. So for 480 gold, you could add +8 to damage to every dual strike; this is one of the most cost-effective damage bumps you can get. Strike bonuses are also available, but they are pricier; a battle axe with max damage and max strike/parry bonuses will be 26 times the standard, at 1040 gold per axe, or 2080 for a pair. If you ever get to the Eastern Territory dwarf city of Northolme, you can also commission a pair of battle axes that offer up to twice the standard bonuses: +8 to damage and +4 to strike and parry. That would add +16 to damage and make you hit all the more often.

If you take the "max weapon" approach, there are some other tricks you can use as well if you can find/afford the materials. Yellow Wood (Eastern Territories p42) isn't hard to get, and using it in the handle can add another +2 to damage. Making the head from Black Iron (Northern Hinterlands, p56) can add another +2 to damage. The best material for an axe head, though, is Black Metal (Dragons & Gods, p228) which does double damage (so your weapon's base damage will be 6D6 instead of 3D6). It's also rare and expensive (80k per pound, and you'd need ~3 lbs per axe).

So if you got 6 lbs of Black Metal (half a million gold), some lengths of Yellow Wood (negligible), and you took them to Northolme and got them hex mastercrafted for maximum bonuses, you could potentially have two battle axes that would be +4 to strike and parry and do 6D6+10 damage each. At level 2+, your character using such weapons could do 14D6+44 per dual strike it, with a median damage of 93 for the approximate price of maybe 750k gold. Wham.

Alternately, you could focus on getting magic items and magic weapons. Magic effects that would be helpful would be items that boost your strength attribute. You can get an attribute-boosting item that boosts your strength by up to 10 (Western Empire p159, 65k gold), a Rune Ring of the Dwarf Lords (+6 P.S., p160 Western Empire), and drugs like Gorvon (boosts by 5 for 1 hour, PF p267) and Kayja (boosts P.S. by 10 for 1 hour) in a pinch. You could also go for magic items granting superhuman strength (PF Alchemy section, boosts your strength to 30), potions or snuffs of superhuman strength (PF Alchemy section), and scrolls of superhuman strength. The basic attribute boosting item is your most effective option, since it's a limitless worn effect and your damage bonus keeps going up beyond a P.S. of 30, whereas Superhuman Strength only boosts your strength to 30.

Alternately, if you go the alchemist route and try to get the most-damaging magic weapons you can get, I'd go with Super-Sharpmess (+4 to damage and lowers the roll needed for critical strikes, 40k gold), Double Damage to Evil (most foes fall into this category, 15k gold ), and Physical Transferral (transfers the damage you do into a force field that protects you for up to your P.E. in minutes, 500k+ gold). This would allow you to do almost as much damage as the exotic materials/hex mastercrafting approach, and the Physical Transferral should keep you alive as long as you hit early and keep hitting. All told, getting a pair of battle axes and a strength-boosting ring would cost you ~1.2 million gold.

If you really want to go over the top, you could try to make a best-materials/craftmanship pair of battle axes and then get them enchanted for ~2 million gold, and a lot of travel/fetching, and waiting on your custom orders. The damage of such a weapon would be a little difficult to work out (does one doubling effect double the base damage of a battle axe or does it double everything else the battle axe does, or does it double some things, but not others?), but even if you took the most conservative interpretation where only the axe's base damage gets doubled, a single axe against an evil foe would do 9D6+16 in base damage, and with your strength damage at level 2, a dual strike would do 20D6+56 damage for a median of 136 damage per hit.If you allow for a true doubling of all damage against evil, it would be 28D6+112, for a median of 210 damage per dual hit.

tl;dr you don't need to pick an OP race to make your character OP. Just boost your strength and upgrade your axes.

To answer your question about attacks per melee, your character starts with 2 for being alive, and you get 2 from your hand-to-hand and 1 more from Boxing, so you start with five. If you were a Rahu-Man, you'd get six, and if you were a Jeridu, you'd get more (that arachnid race should be wiped out, imo).

Your power selection is excellent and is well-suited to the "DWARF SMASH" kind of build detailed above. You may also find Telekinesis handy ("I unbuckle his quiver!" "I pull his helm down over his eyes!"). TK Force Field can also be helpful for protecting yourself and the group's mages. A few additional suggestions on stuff to try to get:

Crystal Items from the Island at the Edge of the World book. If you have a chance to get any of these, get them. They are great!
Idrantine Circlet (Western Empire p162) boosts your I.S.P. Get it if you can, especially the replenishable types. 100k+ gold
Ironhide Ring. It's a suit of invincible armor in the form of a ring; it gives you a natural A.R. up to 16. 250k gold for the highest AR. (Western Empire p160).

Have fun!
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Tiltowait »

@hotrod

Thanks for the detailed breakdown and information.

I found out that while we the GM is sending us to the Lands of the Damned we aren't allowed to take any of the occ's/races. So in the end my choices worked out.
No room for body building or athletics anyway at L1.

Given our current roster I'm thinking about your advice on dropping two 'other' skills to take HTH to expert.
We no longer have a barbarian (outdoors and melee monster) and we gained a diabolist (lots of other skills).

As my mind mage has 5 'Other' skills is kind of rough. Or 3 if I go to HTH expert.

But HTH Basic --> Expert is a little better, but is it worth it?
I already took Paired Weapons so Expert granting that at L7 is a wasted perk.

And at level 15
Basic has +2 strike +3 parry / dodge and +4 damage Crit strike on 19-20
Expert has +2 strike +5 parry / dodge and +3 damage. Crit strike on 18-20. Crit 3x from behind (not sure if this will ever happen)
Both have 5 attacks/round.
Strange that Expert has a lower damage bonus than basic. But an improved crit range is really nice.

For Other skills I went with Literacy (Elven), Espionage (Intel), Cooking, Lore Demons and Monsters, Prowl.
Cooking and Prowl do not get a bonus. Or given that the Janissary is better at Intel and the Travelling Priest has Demon Lore at better adds than me...maybe I should drop those. But I like having skills other than just hitting things. And being able to read. Picking up those kind of skills later as you pointed out will really ding their % progression as opposed to physical skills.

Assuming he lives long enough, Finn will be waiting till Levels 3 and 4 to pick up a single secondary and other skill. Not sure how fast we will level...but that's a bit of a way off. And most likely going to grab Athletics and Body Building.
Decisions, decisions...

Regarding secondary skills: Boxing, Running, Land Navigation, and Wilderness Survival. Don't really want to trim those. Boxing is a must-have. Running is needed because well, dwarves are slow and I'm pretty sure we're going to get in over our heads fairly quickly and I want to have a chance to get away. Land Nav and Wild Survival are pretty much necessary too considering what we're going to be doing and including the fact that nobody took a scouting type class. Well I suppose the Janissary counts but he's not going to be able to do everything...if he's a no-show we don't have anyone with scouting skills. Unless the undecided player goes Thief. Grrr...
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Given the limited number of O.C.C. skills you have I personally would not bother to upgrade your hand to hand. Not for two skills, it's just not worth it. Consider boxing to be your "upgrade".

If the janissary has intelligence maybe you could drop that, leaving them to be your chief "strategy" person - if you think the player of that character would be happy to take on that kind of role. But I would consider keeping Lore: Demons and monsters. There will be lots of demons and monsters ahead, and in the heat of battle you may need to know something about them in a rush - your priest can't spend all of their actions explaining to the rest of you what the creature is that just ambushed you, and besides, they might be incapacitated, somewhere else, dead, etc.

P.S. Finn was the name of one of the player characters in a campaign we recently finished that took us through the Land of the Damned! Coincidence? or fate... :D
He was a gnome wizard (at first...)
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Tiltowait wrote:As my mind mage has 5 'Other' skills is kind of rough. Or 3 if I go to HTH expert.

But HTH Basic --> Expert is a little better, but is it worth it?
I already took Paired Weapons so Expert granting that at L7 is a wasted perk.

And at level 15
Basic has +2 strike +3 parry / dodge and +4 damage Crit strike on 19-20
Expert has +2 strike +5 parry / dodge and +3 damage. Crit strike on 18-20. Crit 3x from behind (not sure if this will ever happen)
Both have 5 attacks/round.
Strange that Expert has a lower damage bonus than basic. But an improved crit range is really nice.

So, a few things here. First, I'm not sure if you must use O.C.C. Related skills as your "other" skills, or if secondary skills are ok. I've always played it as secondary skills being ok to use for upgrading hand-to-hand skills.

Second, I would encourage you to be attacking enemies from behind as much as possible, and you should have ample opportunities to do so. If it's the party vs one big bad/monster, then let the Janissary take up its attention/tank it, and attack it from the rear. By using prowl and your psionics abilities, you should be able to pull plenty of sneak attacks from behind foes. This is something you ought to do as often as reasonably possible.

Third, Hand-to-Hand: Basic doesn't get several special moves that the more advanced versions get, including special kick attacks, disarm, leap attack, and KO/Stun. This is inaddition to the bonus differences you noted and the critical attack/KO from behind. Granted, a lot of these come as you move to higher levels. It's not an easy call to make.

Tiltowait wrote:For Other skills I went with Literacy (Elven), Espionage (Intel), Cooking, Lore Demons and Monsters, Prowl.
Cooking and Prowl do not get a bonus. Or given that the Janissary is better at Intel and the Travelling Priest has Demon Lore at better adds than me...maybe I should drop those. But I like having skills other than just hitting things. And being able to read. Picking up those kind of skills later as you pointed out will really ding their % progression as opposed to physical skills.

Assuming he lives long enough, Finn will be waiting till Levels 3 and 4 to pick up a single secondary and other skill. Not sure how fast we will level...but that's a bit of a way off. And most likely going to grab Athletics and Body Building.
Decisions, decisions...

If you're going with paired axes, my suggestion would be to wait for a bit on the extra physical skills; you'll be doing plenty of damage as is. Instead, I'd encourage you to take a bunch of skills directed toward a particular role ("oh, he's the sneaky/spy guy," for instance)
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Hotrod wrote:First, I'm not sure if you must use O.C.C. Related skills as your "other" skills, or if secondary skills are ok. I've always played it as secondary skills being ok to use for upgrading hand-to-hand skills.

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but the above issue came up in our game recently, and we read the rules the other way (same as Tiltowait). Our reasoning was thus:

Hand to hand skill selection reads like this (for example): "Hand to hand: expert can be changed to hand to hand: martial arts or assassin (if evil) for the cost of one "other" skill."
Selection of O.C.C. Related skills are written like this: "O.C.C. Related Skills: Select ten other skills at level one"
And Secondary skills like this: "Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select four secondary skills from the previous list at level one"

As the O.C.C. Related Skills are always described as "other" skills (and Secondary Skills are not), I figure those are the skills being referred to as "other" in the hand to hand section.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Soldier of Od wrote:
Hotrod wrote:First, I'm not sure if you must use O.C.C. Related skills as your "other" skills, or if secondary skills are ok. I've always played it as secondary skills being ok to use for upgrading hand-to-hand skills.

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but the above issue came up in our game recently, and we read the rules the other way (same as Tiltowait). Our reasoning was thus:

Hand to hand skill selection reads like this (for example): "Hand to hand: expert can be changed to hand to hand: martial arts or assassin (if evil) for the cost of one "other" skill."
Selection of O.C.C. Related skills are written like this: "O.C.C. Related Skills: Select ten other skills at level one"
And Secondary skills like this: "Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select four secondary skills from the previous list at level one"

As the O.C.C. Related Skills are always described as "other" skills (and Secondary Skills are not), I figure those are the skills being referred to as "other" in the hand to hand section.


I suspect you are correct, though I don't understand why Palladium would use two terms to describe the same category of skills. Secondary skills are literally other skills besides the O.C.C. skills, but they are not "other" skills? This seems slightly ambiguous to me. It also seems strange that it would not be possible for a person to take up hand-to-hand fighting as a hobby and thus increase his/her hand-to-hand skill with secondary skill selection that has nothing to do with his or her formal training. Since secondary skills are not limited to a set list (as they are in Rifts) and a character can take literally any skill in an available category in Palladium Fantasy, it seems like an odd limitation ("Am I a surgeon? No, but I did take it as a secondary skill/hobby").

That said, in this instance, it makes essentially no difference, since Mind Mages have very few bonuses for O.C.C. Related skills.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Orin J. »

Hotrod wrote:
Soldier of Od wrote:
Hotrod wrote:First, I'm not sure if you must use O.C.C. Related skills as your "other" skills, or if secondary skills are ok. I've always played it as secondary skills being ok to use for upgrading hand-to-hand skills.

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but the above issue came up in our game recently, and we read the rules the other way (same as Tiltowait). Our reasoning was thus:

Hand to hand skill selection reads like this (for example): "Hand to hand: expert can be changed to hand to hand: martial arts or assassin (if evil) for the cost of one "other" skill."
Selection of O.C.C. Related skills are written like this: "O.C.C. Related Skills: Select ten other skills at level one"
And Secondary skills like this: "Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select four secondary skills from the previous list at level one"

As the O.C.C. Related Skills are always described as "other" skills (and Secondary Skills are not), I figure those are the skills being referred to as "other" in the hand to hand section.


I suspect you are correct, though I don't understand why Palladium would use two terms to describe the same category of skills. Secondary skills are literally other skills besides the O.C.C. skills, but they are not "other" skills? This seems slightly ambiguous to me. It also seems strange that it would not be possible for a person to take up hand-to-hand fighting as a hobby and thus increase his/her hand-to-hand skill with secondary skill selection that has nothing to do with his or her formal training. Since secondary skills are not limited to a set list (as they are in Rifts) and a character can take literally any skill in an available category in Palladium Fantasy, it seems like an odd limitation ("Am I a surgeon? No, but I did take it as a secondary skill/hobby").

That said, in this instance, it makes essentially no difference, since Mind Mages have very few bonuses for O.C.C. Related skills.


hand to hand skills are always in the OCC skills because of how the game system works, you simply can't not have one. the real issue is more that secondary skills are always just given the same list as the OCC skills when they should be drawing off a different list but at that point it's getting a little excessive in the character development area even for palladium games.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

IMO, if you don't start with a HTH, Basic is a necessity... it's too hard to be the one guy without HTH, and Auto Parry is a powerful ability.

Beyond that? The bonus increase between the HTH are minimal, there's not too much style difference, and levelling is too slow to make the nominal benefits of slightly faster APM acquisition matter... especially when you're using 2 attacks for living, which means that you're going from a 50% increase (from 2 to 3) to a 25% increase (from 4 to 5), or a 33% increase (3 to 4) to a 20% increase (from 5 to 6), if you have boxing.

The only one that really breaks the mold is Assassin, with it's +2 APM at level 2, putting you at a quick 3.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Soldier of Od wrote:
Hotrod wrote:First, I'm not sure if you must use O.C.C. Related skills as your "other" skills, or if secondary skills are ok. I've always played it as secondary skills being ok to use for upgrading hand-to-hand skills.

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but the above issue came up in our game recently, and we read the rules the other way (same as Tiltowait). Our reasoning was thus:

Hand to hand skill selection reads like this (for example): "Hand to hand: expert can be changed to hand to hand: martial arts or assassin (if evil) for the cost of one "other" skill."
Selection of O.C.C. Related skills are written like this: "O.C.C. Related Skills: Select ten other skills at level one"
And Secondary skills like this: "Secondary Skills: The character also gets to select four secondary skills from the previous list at level one"

As the O.C.C. Related Skills are always described as "other" skills (and Secondary Skills are not), I figure those are the skills being referred to as "other" in the hand to hand section.


I suspect you are correct, though I don't understand why Palladium would use two terms to describe the same category of skills. Secondary skills are literally other skills besides the O.C.C. skills, but they are not "other" skills? This seems slightly ambiguous to me. It also seems strange that it would not be possible for a person to take up hand-to-hand fighting as a hobby and thus increase his/her hand-to-hand skill with secondary skill selection that has nothing to do with his or her formal training. Since secondary skills are not limited to a set list (as they are in Rifts) and a character can take literally any skill in an available category in Palladium Fantasy, it seems like an odd limitation ("Am I a surgeon? No, but I did take it as a secondary skill/hobby").

That said, in this instance, it makes essentially no difference, since Mind Mages have very few bonuses for O.C.C. Related skills.


hand to hand skills are always in the OCC skills because of how the game system works, you simply can't not have one. the real issue is more that secondary skills are always just given the same list as the OCC skills when they should be drawing off a different list but at that point it's getting a little excessive in the character development area even for palladium games.

While it's very rare to see in a game, it is actually possible to have a character with no hand-to-hand skill; most magic users start with none in 2nd Edition. PF 2nd Edition has rules for this on p46, though I recommend using the Rifts Ultimate Edition rules for no hand-to-hand instead. I made a villain N.P.C. a couple years back with no hand-to-hand skill (and he was probably the scariest one I've ever made; a nigh-unstoppable, yet totally nonviolent villain determined to enact a massive genocide).
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Prysus »

Hotrod wrote:I suspect you are correct, though I don't understand why Palladium would use two terms to describe the same category of skills. Secondary skills are literally other skills besides the O.C.C. skills, but they are not "other" skills? This seems slightly ambiguous to me. It also seems strange that it would not be possible for a person to take up hand-to-hand fighting as a hobby and thus increase his/her hand-to-hand skill with secondary skill selection that has nothing to do with his or her formal training. Since secondary skills are not limited to a set list (as they are in Rifts) and a character can take literally any skill in an available category in Palladium Fantasy, it seems like an odd limitation ("Am I a surgeon? No, but I did take it as a secondary skill/hobby").

Greetings and Salutations. To add slightly to this tangent ...

I used to think that "other" could also be Secondary skills. However, I recall my first article published (Rifter #45, Of Bows & Arrows) they edited the "other" skills line to Related Skills. After that, I started changing the way I wrote it for O.C.C. as well as made characters. Personal anecdote aside, the O.C.C. (or at least those I checked) in Mysteries of Magic and Bizantium both have the Related wording now. This helps show us the current intent of canon.

With that said, like Attacks per Melee, the old rule book still has the same ambiguous wording. And you are free to run games as you see fit. I just wanted to add some official references to help. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Prysus wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I suspect you are correct, though I don't understand why Palladium would use two terms to describe the same category of skills. Secondary skills are literally other skills besides the O.C.C. skills, but they are not "other" skills? This seems slightly ambiguous to me. It also seems strange that it would not be possible for a person to take up hand-to-hand fighting as a hobby and thus increase his/her hand-to-hand skill with secondary skill selection that has nothing to do with his or her formal training. Since secondary skills are not limited to a set list (as they are in Rifts) and a character can take literally any skill in an available category in Palladium Fantasy, it seems like an odd limitation ("Am I a surgeon? No, but I did take it as a secondary skill/hobby").

Greetings and Salutations. To add slightly to this tangent ...

I used to think that "other" could also be Secondary skills. However, I recall my first article published (Rifter #45, Of Bows & Arrows) they edited the "other" skills line to Related Skills. After that, I started changing the way I wrote it for O.C.C. as well as made characters. Personal anecdote aside, the O.C.C. (or at least those I checked) in Mysteries of Magic and Bizantium both have the Related wording now. This helps show us the current intent of canon.

With that said, like Attacks per Melee, the old rule book still has the same ambiguous wording. And you are free to run games as you see fit. I just wanted to add some official references to help. Farewell and safe journeys.

Great finds, very useful, thanks!
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Re: 2E Race/OCC/RCC optimization?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

In PF 1st ed "other skills" reffered to all skill other than the OCC skills. The Elective and secondary skills. This can be seen in the Yin-Sloth Jungles book. The "other skills" terminology was reflected in the RT 1st ed and RMB texts where the OCCR and secondary skills were called referred to 'other skills'.

The 'other skills' terminology has been slowly phased out over the decades.
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