Casting High PPE spells

[Tywyll]

So some spells cost a ridiculous amount of PPE (500+). How does a character afford them? I know nexus and special times of the year give bonuses, but even they aren't enough for the really expensive spells (2000!). So...do all those spells require cults to cast? Is there another way beyond sacrificing an entire village to generate that level of PPE?

[ShadowLogan]

Sacrifice(s) release x2 the PPE upon death, just requires the proper selection of a sacrifice. Ex. Cattle (4d6PPE, pg356 PF2E) provides more than human (2d6, more if a child or a mage) but not as much as an Elf (5d6). See pg 136 (PF2E), has a list of sacrifice list for the Summoner to use, still might require multiple sacrifices.

Stockpile PPE Batteries (ex. talisman).

Some classes might be able to cast those higher level spells at reduced cost. I know this is true in Rifts, not sure about PF2E.

You don't need a cult per say, but you might need a group of willing participants.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So some spells cost a ridiculous amount of PPE (500+). How does a character afford them? I know nexus and special times of the year give bonuses, but even they aren't enough for the really expensive spells (2000!). So...do all those spells require cults to cast? Is there another way beyond sacrificing an entire village to generate that level of PPE?

Yes, the huge spells generally are intended to be by ritual only. Meaning you need to get a group of spellcasters togeather.

[Stone Gargoyle]

So some spells cost a ridiculous amount of PPE (500+). How does a character afford them? I know nexus and special times of the year give bonuses, but even they aren't enough for the really expensive spells (2000!). So...do all those spells require cults to cast? Is there another way beyond sacrificing an entire village to generate that level of PPE?

Yes, the huge spells generally are intended to be by ritual only. Meaning you need to get a group of spellcasters together.

This is why it is important for magic users to belong to an organization. Not only is it necessary if you want to learn new spells but you need more than one wizard casting for the typical ritual.

[Nekira Sudacne]

And remember that Humans are not the only people or Opponents. Just because a mortal mage almost certainly needs a ritual and friends to cast a 1000 PPE spell, an adult dragon might conceiveably have enough to cast it off the cuff out of their own reserves. so it's mechanically there to be available, even if humans are not always going to get much mileage out of the high level ones, non-human NPC's might have them as opponents.

Secondly is remember, the Talisman spell can be used to create PPE batteries. It's concevieably possible for a mage to spend years with friends to build a bunch of PPE batteries to cast some spells quickly off the cuff.

[kiralon]

but it still on the whole makes the spells useless for pc's

[Axelmania]

Yes, the huge spells generally are intended to be by ritual only. Meaning you need to get a group of spellcasters togeather.

Or prep with 100 talismans or something.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, the huge spells generally are intended to be by ritual only. Meaning you need to get a group of spellcasters togeather.

Or prep with 100 talismans or something.

I said the same thing myself a few posts up?

[Axelmania]

I see it now. Though I do wonder if the 3/6 per level drawing limit should maybe apply to objects too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

but it still on the whole makes the spells useless for pc's

Not really. There are rules for PC's joining magic organizations for exactly this reason.

If your GM keeps the group away from any organized support, away from any ley lines or nexus's, away from being able to make or access PPE batteries, and unable to gather a bunch of local farmers to all dance and sing while you psion off PPE for your ritual, then the problem isn't the rules, it's your GM.

Any character can be screwed if the GM makes necessary resources for the character unavailable or nigh impossible to get.

[kiralon]

I only say it because you need to be very prepared to be able to use them, talisman itself is a 500 ppe spell, and when you are out adventuring the only way those spells get cast is usually divine intervention because you are away from easy to get resources, and you would need hundreds of farmers otherwise. Its like the reason why diabolists aren't common pc's, they are great when static but not so great on the move, and I cant think of many adventures I have been in that have stayed static location wise.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm still not really seeing this as a problem. Do you really need the ability to cast talismen in the road with no infastructure support?

The same way the Summoner O.C.C. has trouble summoning allies once your stuck in a Dungeon. You really have to plan ahead and summon what you'll need before heading out.

So your right it's really hard to use those spells while out adventuring, but that's not a mistake or a problem, that's a deliberate balancing feature.

[Axelmania]

the Summoner O.C.C. has trouble summoning allies once your stuck in a Dungeon.

Could mobile protection circles be a solution? Mystic Russia's gypsy wagons having protection circle: superior on them seems to imply that the spell versions of protection circles can be mobile...

Anything in PF about making circles on wagons/boats?

If so: I wonder the absolute minimum size of a circle. Is it possible you could draw one on one of your allies' backs and have them carry around a summoning circle under their shirt? Or have a roll-up circle drawn on a rug/carpet?

[Tywyll]

I'm still not really seeing this as a problem. Do you really need the ability to cast talismen in the road with no infastructure support?

The same way the Summoner O.C.C. has trouble summoning allies once your stuck in a Dungeon. You really have to plan ahead and summon what you'll need before heading out.

So your right it's really hard to use those spells while out adventuring, but that's not a mistake or a problem, that's a deliberate balancing feature.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a dramatic departure from how it was handled in PF1, if I remember correctly? You simply needed to use one of your spells per day, right?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm still not really seeing this as a problem. Do you really need the ability to cast talismen in the road with no infastructure support?

The same way the Summoner O.C.C. has trouble summoning allies once your stuck in a Dungeon. You really have to plan ahead and summon what you'll need before heading out.

So your right it's really hard to use those spells while out adventuring, but that's not a mistake or a problem, that's a deliberate balancing feature.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a dramatic departure from how it was handled in PF1, if I remember correctly? You simply needed to use one of your spells per day, right?

That's correct.

But, If your playing 1E PF, then it's moot, you don't have PPE. Palladium made the decision to use PPE to better balance Magic overall, prejudicing mages to using more low level spells tactically more frequently and high level spells more stragetically. You can dislike that change, and it's certainly not a perfect system or perfectly balanced, but Palladium made no secret why it did it.

Psionics got nerfed even harder. Entire pages of Psionics were cut from Palladium Fantasy to PF2 and all other Palladium products. Deep probing telepathy, mass hypnosis, teleportation, Instant death shocks, No-save attacks that translated ISP to Damage on a 1:1d4 basis with no cap, and permanently rewriting someone's mind into a loyal slave were all pretty Trivial for a PF1 Mind Mage. they were called Mind Gods for a reason. If a Mind Mage wanted you dead, your brains would be leaking out of your ears faster than you can say "roll for initative"

And lets not forget, PF1 had no SDC for living things. Everyone had hilariously low HP stats, so no matter how powerful you were you'd go down fast. It was a game of glass cannons seeing who exploded first.

[kiralon]

I would have to disagree

Psionics got nerfed even harder. Entire pages of Psionics were cut from Palladium Fantasy to PF2 and all other Palladium products. Deep probing telepathy, mass hypnosis, teleportation, Instant death shocks, No-save attacks that translated ISP to Damage on a 1:1d4 basis with no cap, and permanently rewriting someone's mind into a loyal slave were all pretty Trivial for a PF1 Mind Mage. they were called Mind Gods for a reason. If a Mind Mage wanted you dead, your brains would be leaking out of your ears faster than you can say "roll for initative"

And lets not forget, PF1 had no SDC for living things. Everyone had hilariously low HP stats, so no matter how powerful you were you'd go down fast. It was a game of glass cannons seeing who exploded first.

THe most isp you could have at level 1 without being a changeling is 34
1st Ed has less powers

1st Ed has 1 no save damaging attack called mental bolt of force, 12 ISP for 2d6 damage and you have to roll to strike.
and its level 3 before you get it

You might be thinking of evil eye death, for 20 isp (+1 isp per point) for damage, save for no damage if you have psionics 12+ or 10+ or take 1/4 damage if you do save (15+ for non psionicists).
and also is level 3

The rewriting of someone was a level 8 ability, unlike 2nd ed where you can take it at level 1, 1st ed was 48 isp (when you have a base of ME +3d6 then +10 isp per level), 2nd ed its 25 isp (when you have a base of ME + 3d6x10 isp then +12 per level)

2nd ed mind mages get back 2 isp per hour when being tortured to death
1ed mind mages get 3 isp back per hour when in a trance (that doesn't count as sleep)
2nd ed mind mages get back 12 isp per hour of sleep or meditation
1st ed mind mages get back 4 isp per 2 hours of sleep

2nd ed mind mage has the mind bolt that is 6 isp per 1d6 damage
2nd ed mind mages get beefed up from ley lines.

1st ed mind mage has to get to level 3 to have a chance to kill you with his mind
2nd ed mind mage can hit you with a 15d6 damage attack coming out of the starting gate, or pick you up and bash you into the ground, or pick rocks up and bash you into the ground, or a kick that does 5d6 + damage bonus for 6 isp

Telepathy, 2nd ed gives no save if you don't know you are being probed, 1st ed gives an automatic save if you are psionic or if you have an ME of 10 or higher. 1st Ed allows a deeper probe but the save options still apply.

So Rewriting someone is possible in first ed, but its not trivial (Have to be high level) and second ed can do it too, but at level 3. (Insert memory at level 1, mind wipe at level 3)

2nd ed mind wipe lasts 1d4 days per 10 isp spent
1st ed mind wipe lasts 10 days, then has a % chance of memories returning of %20 per day, rolling every day after the first 10
2nd ed mind wipe can be made permanent if the mind mage permanently Burns 4 ME points.

So I think you remember 1st ed a bit differently then I do (but I do play 1st ed ish every week)