How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Zer0 Kay
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Warshield73 wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As it stands, though, RAW, Palladium is Super Old School. 90% of your characters are likely to have no attributes that give bonuses.

I think rolling the attributes during character creation is the biggest areas of house rules. I have never seen a group just roll the number of dice without some kind of chance to improve the attributes. weather its rolling one extra D6 and throwing out the lowest, re-rolling 1's, Being able to re-roll your attributes a set number of times before you are stuck with the last set.

I really love how the attributes were changed in the new Robotech where players chose the attribute track they wanted and would get one super attribute that is usually 20 or above, another that is 16 to 20 area and then all the others are just above average 9 to 15 range. I have started using this basic set up for all of convention pre-gen characters just to make them more interesting to play.


Yeah. I've always done:
If N= number of dice rolled
and S= the number of sides
bonuses and multipliers aren't counted and applied only to original roll after exploding dice is considered
so in 3D6 N=3 and S=6

Now here we go
humans usually get 3d6 + a bonus dice if the roll is 16+ all other creatures that have a 3d6 stat can also benifit from exploding dice... however, anything different you get nothing.

I say roll the NdS and if the sum is greater than (N*S)-N you roll a bonus die (+1S) if that = S roll another +1S. Continue until the roll <S or you've rolled a number of bonus die =N

So a human's first bonus roll is anything higher than (3*6)-3 [16+] and with two sixes on the first two bonus die they can effectively get 6d6

If I'm feeling magnanimous players roll +1S with the first roll and remove the lowest die. If I'm planning on it being a tough ride reroll 1s.

But now creatures with 2d4 can roll bonus die if they roll higher than a 6. If they have 2d4+2 or 2d4*10 it is still higher than a 6 as the modifiers aren't considered until after the roll.

1d10 has to roll higher than a 9

Some have said this would break the game but if people actually follow the die roll and don't make up numbers then the chances for
3d6 to get
+1S=18% ish
+1S2=3% ish
+1S3=<1% ish

10D10
+1S=11.12%
+1S2=.99%
+1S3=.13%
+1S4=.01%
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by kiralon »

The dice roll is more confusing then that
16, 17, 18 = +1d6, if 6 is rolled add another 1d6
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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kiralon wrote:The dice roll is more confusing then that
16, 17, 18 = +1d6, if 6 is rolled add another 1d6

How so?
3d6 gets a bonus d6 on a 16+ that explodes on a six upto two more times.

2d10 gets a bonus d10 on 19+ that can explode once on a 10.

Why? Because something that rolls 3d10 would be stupid to get a d6 bonus die if they roll a 16,17 or 18. A bonus die that get you to a max of 24 or 30 with an additional exploding die is kinda dumb with the max standard roll of 30. On the other hand stats less than 4d4 or 3d6 or 2d10 would have no exceptional rolls.

Again claiming only humans (3d6) stats are regularly exceptional. Only humans and specific stats from other species may "mutate" producing an exception every other stat either incapable of rolling the required 16-18 or less likely to roll it are somehow genetically stable.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Warshield73 wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As it stands, though, RAW, Palladium is Super Old School. 90% of your characters are likely to have no attributes that give bonuses.

I think rolling the attributes during character creation is the biggest areas of house rules. I have never seen a group just roll the number of dice without some kind of chance to improve the attributes. weather its rolling one extra D6 and throwing out the lowest, re-rolling 1's, Being able to re-roll your attributes a set number of times before you are stuck with the last set.

I really love how the attributes were changed in the new Robotech where players chose the attribute track they wanted and would get one super attribute that is usually 20 or above, another that is 16 to 20 area and then all the others are just above average 9 to 15 range. I have started using this basic set up for all of convention pre-gen characters just to make them more interesting to play.


Yes I like the way the players can choose to have a couple stats boosted in the die rolls too. But I also like how they made this a choice to use the modified die rolls or just using the normal die rolls for attributes.
My rolling system is that I re-roll 1s and 2s. And from the pile of die start them to the stat piles (typically I have to assign the 1st pile roll and re-roll the whole once more). If I want a normal char w/o any bonuses or penalties (see RUE char creation text) from that stats this works fine. Yes, if I go Full Munchkin, it can get one or two stats really high.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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I've had a side-bar conversation going over the last few days about the armor rules I put forward here and what level of damage absorption is appropriate. In the context of that discussion, I found some fascinating arrow vs armor test videos.
Arrows vs Leather and Cloth Armors
Arrows vs Chainmail
Arrows vs Plate

tl;dw: it's hard to penetrate the softer armors and basically impossible to penetrate the metal ones.


As I see these rules playing out:
Light armor makes characters effectively immune to weaker blunt weapons and can hold up pretty well for a time against edged weapons, but cannot hold up in prolonged combat
Heavy armor makes characters effectively immune to all but the strongest melee weapons or most-skilled enemies, and it can hold up well for a while against magic weapons.

And in terms of making melee equipment choices interesting:
Arrows offer a workable approach to taking down enemies in armor by bypassing the armor (countered by using a shield), but archers will need some backup weapons to survive in melee combat.
2-handed weapons offer a workable approach to taking down enemies in armor by smashing through AR absorption, but they leave the wielder vulnerable to arrows and dual-wielders.
Armored Dual-wielders have a better chance to bypass armor against non-dual wielders (since one of the two strikes cannot be defended), but they're vulnerable to arrows, and multiple attackers will tend to bypass their defenses, since they lose their auto-parry.
Armored Shield-users are great at staying alive, but will take a lot longer to kill enemies in armor.
Unarmored, un-shielded fighters get wrecked by any of the above in armor pretty quickly.

Thus a melee character in combat will have plenty of viable choices. Unsling a shield for the off-hand or draw a knife? Use a Bastard Sword as a 1-hander with a knife or take a 2-handed grip? Cover behind a shield or charge the enemy archer? Of course, this is how I see things going, and playtesting trumps my own internal modeling. There's also the concern that making armor more effective will prolong combat or make it less intense and exciting.

What do you think?
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Well, I was the side bar in interest of conversation what I recommended was lowering the amount of damage absorbed by the armor on a roll that was over the AR. Hotrod recommended the amount of damaged absorbed being equal to the AR for each hit. I recommended making it half the AR. I did this because I tried the full AR and no matter what the strike roll was, everything was coming off of the armor - even with just Studded leather. Essentially, all the PCs and NPCs had to chop the armor off before they could affect the body. It was like full environmental armor! So I hope with the half AR abrsorbtion it makes for a middle ground.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:Well, I was the side bar in interest of conversation what I recommended was lowering the amount of damage absorbed by the armor on a roll that was over the AR. Hotrod recommended the amount of damaged absorbed being equal to the AR for each hit. I recommended making it half the AR. I did this because I tried the full AR and no matter what the strike roll was, everything was coming off of the armor - even with just Studded leather. Essentially, all the PCs and NPCs had to chop the armor off before they could affect the body. It was like full environmental armor! So I hope with the half AR abrsorbtion it makes for a middle ground.

-Vek
"They're all getting arrested anyway."


A few ideas for you if you're looking for more of a "capture/arrest the P.C.'s"
1. Have the NPCs throw nets on them. You can't dodge/parry, which makes bypassing the armor a lot easier.
2. Threaten them with bows, which are more likely to bypass armor thanks to the hefty defensive penalty.
3. Bring superior numbers and/or armored folks to make the arrest (the medieval equivalent of a SWAT team)
4. Use magic/psionics/toxins to subdue them (the fantasy SWAT team?)
5. Send in a lone N.P.C. to talk the P.C.'s into coming quietly (medieval police negotiator)
6. Have the arrest happen when the P.C.'s don't have their armor on (dinner party, bathing, sleeping, et cetera)
7. Dogpile them (wrestling skill: body block/tackle with multiple arresting folks; pin them down while their buddies disarm them)
8. Give some of the capturing folks the "knock out from behind" attack move. Bonk! P.C. is down for the count.

If I have an opponent hacking away at my armor, I'm not thinking "oh, I'm under arrest." I'm thinking "oh, they're trying to kill me, so I'd better kill them!" I'm actually totally OK with a character coming through combat unscathed due to armor; that's the whole point of armor, after all.

What I worry about with these rules is armor being so effective that it slows combat way, way down into a slow attrition between two people who rarely deal a telling blow.

What if we did this: make all edged weapons and reinforced blunt weapons do damage direct to hit points? We could have physical S.D.C. apply only to unarmed strikes, staff and light clubs, whips, and environmental damage like knockdowns, falls, getting dragged, et cetera. This way, it's your characters' main protection against taking hit point damage.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, the arrest was easy. But that's for another thread.

I also worry about the armor being too formidable. While I have a lot of CQB and hand to hand combat training, I have never really swung a sword, mace, flail, etc., been in any kind of mideival armor, or done bother simultaneously. Maybe someone who has can tell us how difficult it is to get past armor. Maybe that's how it actually works. You bash the armor off first.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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I guess that, when it comes to lethal weapons, I'd rather have the armor get bashed off first than the character's physical SDC get bashed off first.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

I sure would as a person but I wouldn’t want armor to just be extra HP.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:I sure would as a person but I wouldn’t want armor to just be extra HP.

-Vek
“It would make things easier.”


it's not extra HP. it's extra SDC, which is more or less how modern armor works now.....
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I appreciate the distinction but SDC is essentially extra hit points. There are very few things that go directly to hit points and weapons aren’t one of them. It’s why I hate SDC for living creatures.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:Well, I appreciate the distinction but SDC is essentially extra hit points. There are very few things that go directly to hit points and weapons aren’t one of them. It’s why I hate SDC for living creatures.

-Vek
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I like SDC for living creatures BUT I think it was messed up in how it was implemented.

SDC for living creatures works GREAT for "bumps and bruises and other things that will heal pretty quickly", partially because SDC does heal faster than HP. And if SDC increased with level, that would work fine at a conceptual level... but that's not the route Palladium picked, so SDC is just... THERE. A pile of HP that doesn't DO anything mechanically interesting.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I think Mark and I should have our SDC opinions automatically placed in every post, just so we don’t keep doing this. ;)

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:Well, I think Mark and I should have our SDC opinions automatically placed in every post, just so we don’t keep doing this. ;)

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If we didn't want to rechew old cud, we wouldn't be on the PMB. :D
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:I sure would as a person but I wouldn’t want armor to just be extra HP.

-Vek
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I wouldn't want armor to just be extra HP either. In Rifts, it makes sense due to the MDC mechanic.

In Fantasy, physical SDC makes sense in the context of nonlethal combat: unarmed combat, light clubs, whips, staffs, that sort of thing. Against penetrating trauma and lethal varieties of blunt weapons, I prefer to have damage go straight to hit points, which makes the prospect of getting stabbed, axed, or slashed terrifying, as it should.

I like the idea of armor providing a major defensive advantage that doesn't become irrelevant as combatants become more skillful. I also want it to be something that can be
1. Bypassed through luck, skill, or striking when the wearer can't defend
2. Penetrated through by blows of sufficient power
3. Destroyed by weapons to which that type of armor is vulnerable.

This is why I wrote the house rules this way. I'm very curious to hear how they work out in practice, and how they influence player decisions.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by kiralon »

i used sdc in N&S for unarmed combat, weapons went straight to hp
I still dont use sdc for people in fantasy (some monsters with exo skeletons do though)

What most games armours don't do however is show that they rarely stop all the damage. I dont care what sort of padding is under your chainmail when an arrow hits you, it still hurts and can break ribs, and if you watch the tournaments where the guys do wear full plate and fight with real (but blunted) weapons, when they take a hit or 2 on the noggin they certainly don't want to take anymore. Armour should be able to stop a certain amount of damage, but only the rigid types should have a chance at stopping all the damage from going through. (Chain mail does bugger all against cricket bats)
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Hotrod wrote:In Fantasy, physical SDC makes sense in the context of nonlethal combat: unarmed combat, light clubs, whips, staffs, that sort of thing. Against penetrating trauma and lethal varieties of blunt weapons, I prefer to have damage go straight to hit points, which makes the prospect of getting stabbed, axed, or slashed terrifying, as it should.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, according to Kevin S.D.C. on people works the same as Hit Points.. So, mechanically, I guess they really are just more Hit Points. With that said ...

I often thought of the blunt vs. lethal damage approach. I suppose in a thread about Equipment, this is the more practical approach as well. However, more recently, I've been thinking about what S.D.C. and Hit Points represent. S.D.C. is really the attacks you can just shrug off. I recall (and I don't recall where I read this) that S.D.C. was basically the John Wayne movie where he takes half a dozen gun shots and at the end just walks off because they're flesh wounds. RUE, page 287, specifically includes "shot, stabbed or takes a beating" (Note: This also says this is "realistic" ... so getting shot and stabbed, then just walking it off is apparently realistic to Palladium). This may not be the most realistic, but it is more common with movies. Hit Points are supposed to be the life threatening stuff that puts you in real danger. So while the non-lethal vs. lethal damage makes sense and may be the better overall game mechanic, I'm not sure that it captures the difference between S.D.C. and Hit Points.

The way some people play damage now is closer to the way S.D.C. should work. You take damage, but it doesn't really impact the character until you're at 0. Hit Points however should have additional affects. Rules such as Blood Loss (you won't stop bleeding without medical attention and take additional H.P. damage, though something like First Aid may at least work as a temporary measure), Saves vs. Pain (which can incapacitate characters), etc. being implemented once a character takes any Hit Point damage may better represent the danger. These exists in some places, but typically as "Optional" rules and usually not in the main book. Something like this might put actual consequences into taking Hit Point damage.

Anyways, a bit off topic of equipment in general, but I just wanted to share some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, before we descend back into an SDC discussion in Hotrod's combat thread, I'm calling for a halt!

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Prysus wrote:
Hotrod wrote:In Fantasy, physical SDC makes sense in the context of nonlethal combat: unarmed combat, light clubs, whips, staffs, that sort of thing. Against penetrating trauma and lethal varieties of blunt weapons, I prefer to have damage go straight to hit points, which makes the prospect of getting stabbed, axed, or slashed terrifying, as it should.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, according to Kevin S.D.C. on people works the same as Hit Points.. So, mechanically, I guess they really are just more Hit Points. With that said ...

I often thought of the blunt vs. lethal damage approach. I suppose in a thread about Equipment, this is the more practical approach as well. However, more recently, I've been thinking about what S.D.C. and Hit Points represent. S.D.C. is really the attacks you can just shrug off. I recall (and I don't recall where I read this) that S.D.C. was basically the John Wayne movie where he takes half a dozen gun shots and at the end just walks off because they're flesh wounds. RUE, page 287, specifically includes "shot, stabbed or takes a beating" (Note: This also says this is "realistic" ... so getting shot and stabbed, then just walking it off is apparently realistic to Palladium). This may not be the most realistic, but it is more common with movies. Hit Points are supposed to be the life threatening stuff that puts you in real danger. So while the non-lethal vs. lethal damage makes sense and may be the better overall game mechanic, I'm not sure that it captures the difference between S.D.C. and Hit Points.

The way some people play damage now is closer to the way S.D.C. should work. You take damage, but it doesn't really impact the character until you're at 0. Hit Points however should have additional affects. Rules such as Blood Loss (you won't stop bleeding without medical attention and take additional H.P. damage, though something like First Aid may at least work as a temporary measure), Saves vs. Pain (which can incapacitate characters), etc. being implemented once a character takes any Hit Point damage may better represent the danger. These exists in some places, but typically as "Optional" rules and usually not in the main book. Something like this might put actual consequences into taking Hit Point damage.

Anyways, a bit off topic of equipment in general, but I just wanted to share some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys.


I don't hate S.D.C. as it's implemented; taking a hit points-only approach to combat comes with its own problems, and to be fair, it is possible to sustain a superficial, grazing injury from a gunshot, knife, or hammer and walk it off. Using S.D.C. makes combat more forgiving. It also makes combat take longer, and my house rules for armor will tend to compound things to slow combat between armored opponents way, way down. Since this thread is about tweaking the mechanics, I'm OK with changing changing the character S.D.C. rules.

As for creating or incorporating hit point side effects, that's an interesting topic. I like the idea of a telling blow having additional effects. It would help fights end faster, and it would make players pay more attention to their gear/armor, which is what this thread is all about.

It would also be interesting to see more specific injuries that aren't just points, but require some skill or power to heal.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Prysus »

Hotrod wrote:Since this thread is about tweaking the mechanics, I'm OK with changing changing the character S.D.C. rules.

Greetings and Salutations. And I'm okay with that. I just wanted to point out actual rules, and different thoughts.

Hotrod wrote:As for creating or incorporating hit point side effects, that's an interesting topic. I like the idea of a telling blow having additional effects. It would help fights end faster, and it would make players pay more attention to their gear/armor, which is what this thread is all about.

I decided to make this thread about additional affects of Hit Point damage: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=167819

I thought about posting them here, but I don't want to have that as a side topic (especially since it could involve tweaking rules and pros and cons of specifics to those).

Hotrod wrote:It would also be interesting to see more specific injuries that aren't just points, but require some skill or power to heal.

I'll consider adding something more like that in the future.

And, before I go, I will say this topic of S.D.C. just being additional Hit Points made me thinks of this scene ...

Spoiler:
Palladium players playing D&D for the first time …

DM: Gentlemen, we play till sunrise.
Player 1: What about Hit Points?
DM: You already have them.
Player 1: We have one, yes. What about Structural Hit Points?
Player 2: I don’t think he knows about Structural Hit Points.
Player 1: What about Armor Hit Points? Shield Hit Points? Magical Hit Points? Temporary Hit Points? Mega-Hit Points? He knows about them, doesn’t he?
Player 2: I wouldn’t count on it.
Thank you for your time and hope everyone is well. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I was thinking about the strength bonus in combat. The way it's written, a person with a 20 STR gets +5 damage on every shot. However, that seems to assume just a one handed strike. There is no increase in damage if you use a weapon with two hands. I think we all know that swinging a weapon with two hands, is almost always going to generate more force and thus damage than a single weapon. Hotrod somewhat addresses this with two handed weapons doing double damage, but that's essentially upping the damage for two handed weapons. It seems to be that either the 20 STR gives +5 to damage at a maximum, i.e. somoene using both hands to hit, or that using two hands would increase that damage bonus.

So, do you guys think it should be using two hands on a weapon (that has enough room to do so) would increase strength bonuses, or using weapons one-handed would reduce strength bonuses? I lean towards the latter, because what do you do about someone with a 15 STR swinging a weapon 2 handed? Do they suddenly jump up in strength? You could say that using 2 hands increases the strength bonus by a set amount but that doesn't take into account the different increases in force for people with different strenghts. Halving the strength bonus (round up or down?) for someone using only one hand seems easier.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I was thinking about the strength bonus in combat. The way it's written, a person with a 20 STR gets +5 damage on every shot. However, that seems to assume just a one handed strike. There is no increase in damage if you use a weapon with two hands. I think we all know that swinging a weapon with two hands, is almost always going to generate more force and thus damage than a single weapon. Hotrod somewhat addresses this with two handed weapons doing double damage, but that's essentially upping the damage for two handed weapons. It seems to be that either the 20 STR gives +5 to damage at a maximum, i.e. somoene using both hands to hit, or that using two hands would increase that damage bonus.

So, do you guys think it should be using two hands on a weapon (that has enough room to do so) would increase strength bonuses, or using weapons one-handed would reduce strength bonuses? I lean towards the latter, because what do you do about someone with a 15 STR swinging a weapon 2 handed? Do they suddenly jump up in strength? You could say that using 2 hands increases the strength bonus by a set amount but that doesn't take into account the different increases in force for people with different strenghts. Halving the strength bonus (round up or down?) for someone using only one hand seems easier.

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Per the house rules in the OP here (which I've been updating and tweaking as this thread has developed), the double-damage of 2-handers doubles all bonuses, including those from strength. Mathematically, it's

(weapon damage + bonuses) x 2 = two-hander damage.

I can definitely see the perks of reducing 1-handed damage bonuses instead, and that's a perfectly legitimate way to go. It will make 1-handers less damaging and less of a threat.

Given what I've done with armor and shields becoming more effective at protection, I think that it's important to give characters the option to do more damage, not so much for the sake of realism as much as for the sake of keeping combat relatively fast-paced. Reducing damage bonuses would seem to work against that. Additionally, reducing these bonuses from strength, but not from other sources, might complicate things, whereas "figure up your damage, then double it" is fairly simple. Thus, while I could see your approach being effective on its own or in the context of a different set of house rules, I think it's not as well suited to the other rules changes I've proposed here.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Veknironth wrote:Well, I was thinking about the strength bonus in combat. The way it's written, a person with a 20 STR gets +5 damage on every shot. However, that seems to assume just a one handed strike. There is no increase in damage if you use a weapon with two hands. I think we all know that swinging a weapon with two hands, is almost always going to generate more force and thus damage than a single weapon. Hotrod somewhat addresses this with two handed weapons doing double damage, but that's essentially upping the damage for two handed weapons. It seems to be that either the 20 STR gives +5 to damage at a maximum, i.e. somoene using both hands to hit, or that using two hands would increase that damage bonus.

So, do you guys think it should be using two hands on a weapon (that has enough room to do so) would increase strength bonuses, or using weapons one-handed would reduce strength bonuses? I lean towards the latter, because what do you do about someone with a 15 STR swinging a weapon 2 handed? Do they suddenly jump up in strength? You could say that using 2 hands increases the strength bonus by a set amount but that doesn't take into account the different increases in force for people with different strenghts. Halving the strength bonus (round up or down?) for someone using only one hand seems easier.

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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Father Goose wrote:This is really good stuff! I have tried a few times to make combat more interesting and been mostly dissatisfied. The proposals here are exactly what I have been looking for!
I find that Palladium's rules need quite a bit of fine tuning and modification. Rules like this make the game more realistic. Yes, very well done!
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I appreciate the distinction but SDC is essentially extra hit points. There are very few things that go directly to hit points and weapons aren’t one of them. It’s why I hate SDC for living creatures.

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I think attacks should go direct to HP on a Natural 20 whether you make a called shot or not. Sometimes you should be able to just get lucky. Natural 20 and Natural 1 don't seem to be as big a deal in Palladium games as they are in others.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Veknironth wrote:Well, I appreciate the distinction but SDC is essentially extra hit points. There are very few things that go directly to hit points and weapons aren’t one of them. It’s why I hate SDC for living creatures.

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I think attacks should go direct to HP on a Natural 20 whether you make a called shot or not. Sometimes you should be able to just get lucky. Natural 20 and Natural 1 don't seem to be as big a deal in Palladium games as they are in others.


They aren't, in part due to the greater amount of time for character creation and therefore the greater emotional investment.

If your gonna do critical like other games, do it like other games and require a double roll to kill.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I think attacks should go direct to HP on a Natural 20 whether you make a called shot or not. Sometimes you should be able to just get lucky. Natural 20 and Natural 1 don't seem to be as big a deal in Palladium games as they are in others.


They aren't, in part due to the greater amount of time for character creation and therefore the greater emotional investment.

If your gonna do critical like other games, do it like other games and require a double roll to kill.
Of course. I wasn't speaking strictly of killing though. Just because an attack goes to HP it doesn't mean it kills you. Also, even if you go to zero HP, in Palladium there's this thing called save vs. coma/death.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I think attacks should go direct to HP on a Natural 20 whether you make a called shot or not. Sometimes you should be able to just get lucky. Natural 20 and Natural 1 don't seem to be as big a deal in Palladium games as they are in others.


They aren't, in part due to the greater amount of time for character creation and therefore the greater emotional investment.

If your gonna do critical like other games, do it like other games and require a double roll to kill.
Of course. I wasn't speaking strictly of killing though. Just because an attack goes to HP it doesn't mean it kills you. Also, even if you go to zero HP, in Palladium there's this thing called save vs. coma/death.

You forget there are two other "steps" one optional.
1. (Only in MDC afaik) G.I. Joe rule
2. It isnt just 0 it is 0 - P.E. before death.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I think attacks should go direct to HP on a Natural 20 whether you make a called shot or not. Sometimes you should be able to just get lucky. Natural 20 and Natural 1 don't seem to be as big a deal in Palladium games as they are in others.


They aren't, in part due to the greater amount of time for character creation and therefore the greater emotional investment.

If your gonna do critical like other games, do it like other games and require a double roll to kill.
Of course. I wasn't speaking strictly of killing though. Just because an attack goes to HP it doesn't mean it kills you. Also, even if you go to zero HP, in Palladium there's this thing called save vs. coma/death.

You forget there are two other "steps" one optional.
1. (Only in MDC afaik) G.I. Joe rule
2. It isnt just 0 it is 0 - P.E. before death.
Anyhow, Natural 20s are not that common amongst my group so it's really not a big thing.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Hotrod »

I had an idea today that I thought might be worth incorporating into this set of house rules:
+Only men-at-arms can take any W.P.
-Non-men-at-arms can only select W.P.'s for weapons that the character also uses as tools.


Some weapons automatically double as tools, and any class can select their W.P. without penalty/prerequisite: Knife and Staff.

Some weapons cannot double as tools and are exclusive to men-at-arms, unless they are included in O.C.C. skills. These are: Chain, Paired Weapons, Shield, Siege Weapons, Sword, Spear, Pole Arms, Archery, Mouth/Blowguns.

Some weapons could double as tools as long as long as the character already has another skill which uses that specific weapon as a tool:
Axe (with Carpentry), Blunt (with Boat Building, Carpentry, General Repair, or Field Armorer), Net or Forked/Trident (with fishing), Grappling Hook (with Climbing or Rope Works), Whip (with Animal Husbandry), Thrown and targeting/missile weapons (with juggling).

To be clear, once the non-man-at-arms takes the skill to use a tool as a weapon, that character can also use a version of that weapon that is specifically built for combat. For instance, a Warlock with the Carpentry skill takes W.P. Axe. That warlock isn't restricted to using a wood axe and can use/carry a battle axe, because he already has the skill to use it. That warlock carpenter thinks "well, I'm already good with an axe, so I might as well use a proper battle axe for battle." A wizard who isn't a carpenter doesn't generally just pick up a battle axe and say "It's time for me to learn how to chop people up with this," but if that wizard also has the General Repair skill, she might think, "I'm pretty good with a hammer, so why not use a warhammer in a fight?"

Advantages to this house rule:
+This would heavily restrict non-men-at-arms' choices for W.P.'s., giving men-at-arms a significant combat edge, especially given the other rules in the OP.
+This would increase the skill cost of most W.P.'s, but it would do so in a way that makes roleplaying sense; non-men-at-arms have little use for weapons that can't perform other functions.

Disadvantages to this house rule:
-Classes barred from taking prerequisite skills would not be allowed to take the corresponding W.P. For instance, since W.P. Axe requires Carpentry, classes that restrict Wilderness skills won't be able to take it. Warlocks, Mystics, and Diabolists could, but Wizards, Summoners, Psi-Sensitives, Psi-Healers, and Mind Mages could not. In some cases, these restrictions seem a bit arbitrary.

Thoughts?
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Not a bad idea IMO.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Prysus »

Hotrod wrote:I had an idea today that I thought might be worth incorporating into this set of house rules:
+Only men-at-arms can take any W.P.
-Non-men-at-arms can only select W.P.'s for weapons that the character also uses as tools.

Greetings and Salutations. I didn't quote the whole post for space. Also, it's been a while and I don't remember all the other rules, so I'll be responding to this rule in isolation (not how it interacts with your other rules).

Things you may not have considered:

1: This also affects classes such as Nobles, Squires, and Warrior Monks. Squires, in particular, would be hit by this rule as I don't think they can even select all the W.P. that come with the O.C.C. unless they take some skills from the "doubles" category first. Warrior Monks are ... Well, warriors and monks. I'd say think of a Shaolin Monk (as an example) and the weapons used, though others may have a different view.

2: Archery also helps with hunting. Not sure of how open this was in a true medieval setting, but I can think of various hero stories of humble beginnings where the hero could hunt with a bow and arrow.

3: What about characters who train for a militia? Will these individuals never be able to improve with a shield or spear ever? Or magic user or psychics who are actually in the military? I mean, if you're born with psychic powers will you never be able to learn to defend yourself better?

4: What about spear fishing? Tridents are included, but not actual spears. And what of harpoons? I believe that became a W.P. in Byzantium (though I'm in bed and away from my books to double check at this moment).

I'm not opposed to the mechanics concept and I like giving Men at Arms one more way to stand out, but not sure this is a rule I feel works well with the system. But maybe with some additional rules and fleshing out, this could still be workable. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
Agreed. It would be better to rewrite the Man-At-Arms OCC to give them more WPs than to strip everyone else of the ability to take them.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
Agreed. It would be better to rewrite the Man-At-Arms OCC to give them more WPs than to strip everyone else of the ability to take them.

What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Warshield73 wrote:What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.
I think you would have to make certain ancient weapons skills harder to acquire. Making anyone and everyone able to take WPs regardless of class is the problem. I think you would need to limit the number and type of WPs that can be selected by non-fighter classes. There is no reason why the common man would know how to fight with a polearm.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by kiralon »

I find that no autoparry for non men at arms works best, while they were reading books and learning magic, the men at arms were out there getting muscle memory for auto parry.

and then if they want autoparry they have to spend perks on hth abilities, so they are less effective at magic, and can only autoparry once or twice in a round, depending on perk points spent.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.
I think you would have to make certain ancient weapons skills harder to acquire. Making anyone and everyone able to take WPs regardless of class is the problem. I think you would need to limit the number and type of WPs that can be selected by non-fighter classes. There is no reason why the common man would know how to fight with a polearm.

I think polearms is a bad example, and as far as I know Lance is restricted to just a few classes and so is longbow. That is a good start but some ideas are
- Restrict some additional WPs to just MaA
- Allow MaA to take WPs as secondary's while other character types must use OCC/Related
- Restrict the total number of WPs for other classes to a specific number
- Give additional bonuses for all WPs for MaA to make it superior to the WPs all others take.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Truthfully, I'd lean towards a couple things:

1) Give Man-at-Arms OCCs some actual abilities. A couple have them, the rest have skills, most of which can be taken by anyone. There's not much that differentiates a Mercenary Fighter from a soldier... a few skill selections. You could rewrite them as the same OCC, with discussion of the in-world differences, and there wouldn't be much effect on the game.

2) Give Man-at-Arms OCCs some additional bonuses. Bonus SDC. Built in attribute bonuses. Specific bonuses to combat skills. Make it so, even if my wizard has HTH Expert, the Man at Arms is a better combatant.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Prysus wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I had an idea today that I thought might be worth incorporating into this set of house rules:
+Only men-at-arms can take any W.P.
-Non-men-at-arms can only select W.P.'s for weapons that the character also uses as tools.

Greetings and Salutations. I didn't quote the whole post for space. Also, it's been a while and I don't remember all the other rules, so I'll be responding to this rule in isolation (not how it interacts with your other rules).

Things you may not have considered:

1: This also affects classes such as Nobles, Squires, and Warrior Monks. Squires, in particular, would be hit by this rule as I don't think they can even select all the W.P. that come with the O.C.C. unless they take some skills from the "doubles" category first. Warrior Monks are ... Well, warriors and monks. I'd say think of a Shaolin Monk (as an example) and the weapons used, though others may have a different view.

Good point. I generally consider Nobles and Squires to be Men-At-Arms, but as written, your interpretation is correct. I have edited this thread's OP to clarify. As for the monks, as written, their weapon is the staff and/or spear, and they have W.P.'s for both in their O.C.C. skills. If you want to write up a variation on the monk that focuses on a different weapon and swaps out the staff/spear for something else, that seems reasonable.

Prysus wrote:2: Archery also helps with hunting. Not sure of how open this was in a true medieval setting, but I can think of various hero stories of humble beginnings where the hero could hunt with a bow and arrow.

I wrestled with this one. My thinking is that bows and arrows don't have much in the way of alternate tool uses, and therefore they're more of a dedicated martial weapon. I can make the "useful for hunting" argument about a great many weapons, and the line between "hunter" and "warrior" is a pretty blurry one. Rangers count as Men-At-Arms, and they're the quintessential huntsman class.

Prysus wrote:3: What about characters who train for a militia? Will these individuals never be able to improve with a shield or spear ever? Or magic user or psychics who are actually in the military? I mean, if you're born with psychic powers will you never be able to learn to defend yourself better?

Yeah, pretty much. Under the house rules I've presented, shields impart strong melee advantages. Unless a person means to get involved in a lot of melee combat, there's no side-benefit to using them. I generally model militia as low-level men-at-arms who either have an additional "optional" O.C.C. or else use their "other" skills to suit their day-jobs.

Prysus wrote:4: What about spear fishing? Tridents are included, but not actual spears. And what of harpoons? I believe that became a W.P. in Byzantium (though I'm in bed and away from my books to double check at this moment).

The spear fishing spears I've seen have all had forked heads, so W.P. Forked/Trident seems a better fit than W.P. Spear. As for harpoons, sure, that seems appropriate for a Sailor, Pirate, or Serpent Chaser, all of whom are Men-At-Arms.

Prysus wrote:I'm not opposed to the mechanics concept and I like giving Men at Arms one more way to stand out, but not sure this is a rule I feel works well with the system. But maybe with some additional rules and fleshing out, this could still be workable. Farewell and safe journeys.

I'm very much open to suggestions and appreciate the feedback. As I was reading one of Vek's replies in another thread, it just struck me that, as written, almost any Non-Man-At-Arms class could eclipse a Man-At-Arms class in its own specialty with some choice skill selections. While one of my guidelines for myself in this thread is to not change stats as written, it seems to me that this effort to make Men-At-Arms more interesting and viable from a mechanics standpoint ought to address this issue, or else it's just opening the door for Non-Men-At-Arms to take a few W.P.'s and jump into the fray.
Last edited by Hotrod on Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.


I appreciate the feedback, and I agree with your assessment of how Palladium Fantasy handles Men-At-Arms (and Vek's, for that matter). I invite you to propose your own alternatives.

One minor clarification: I'm proposing that Non-Men-At-Arms should have some other skill that justifies taking W.P.'s for items that don't double as obvious and basic tools for anyone (knife and staff). I'm not proposing preventing non-Men-At-Arms from taking W.P.'s in general; I agree, that would be extreme.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
Agreed. It would be better to rewrite the Man-At-Arms OCC to give them more WPs than to strip everyone else of the ability to take them.


Can you give an example of a W.P. that you would write into a Man-At-Arms O.C.C. description?
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Warshield73 wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
Agreed. It would be better to rewrite the Man-At-Arms OCC to give them more WPs than to strip everyone else of the ability to take them.

What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.

It seems weird that you can have a wizard dual-wielding battle axes in Palladium Fantasy in the rules as written, and it also seems weird that so many classes in Rifts can Zord up and pilot robots and power armor.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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kiralon wrote:I find that no autoparry for non men at arms works best, while they were reading books and learning magic, the men at arms were out there getting muscle memory for auto parry.

and then if they want autoparry they have to spend perks on hth abilities, so they are less effective at magic, and can only autoparry once or twice in a round, depending on perk points spent.


That's an interesting idea. In a way, it's already implemented for many non-men-at-arms classes in Palladium Fantasy who must spend a skill to pick up H-H: Basic, but you take it a step further with the limitation.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Warshield73 wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.
I think you would have to make certain ancient weapons skills harder to acquire. Making anyone and everyone able to take WPs regardless of class is the problem. I think you would need to limit the number and type of WPs that can be selected by non-fighter classes. There is no reason why the common man would know how to fight with a polearm.

I think polearms is a bad example, and as far as I know Lance is restricted to just a few classes and so is longbow. That is a good start but some ideas are
- Restrict some additional WPs to just MaA
- Allow MaA to take WPs as secondary's while other character types must use OCC/Related
- Restrict the total number of WPs for other classes to a specific number
- Give additional bonuses for all WPs for MaA to make it superior to the WPs all others take.


I think these are pretty viable ideas that seem pretty compatible with what I'm proposing. While I like the organic/roleplaying aspect of making non-combat characters have a non-combat reason for taking a specific W.P., the effect is similar to what you're proposing: it makes W.P.'s more costly for Non-Men-At-Arms to take.

Straight-up limits are an interesting line of thinking. Where would you set such a limit? Official rules as written offer little incentive to take more than 1 melee weapon skill, paired weapons, and Archery + Targeting. 4 W.P.'s makes pretty much anyone equal to or better than a standard man-at-arms in most situations. There is some benefit to taking a few more, but that's for a specific specialty kind of build with specific tactics in mind. My house rules provide some incentive for characters to have multiple W.P.'s and weapon options, but even with them there's a point of diminishing returns that most Men-At-Arms are likely to hit fairly quickly.

The fact that even most Non-Men-At-Arms classes get at least one W.P. built in probably means you'd need to set that limit pretty low.

What kinds of bonuses would you apply to Men-At-Arms who take W.P.'s? Double them?
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Mark Hall wrote:Truthfully, I'd lean towards a couple things:

1) Give Man-at-Arms OCCs some actual abilities. A couple have them, the rest have skills, most of which can be taken by anyone. There's not much that differentiates a Mercenary Fighter from a soldier... a few skill selections. You could rewrite them as the same OCC, with discussion of the in-world differences, and there wouldn't be much effect on the game.

I quite like this approach. Currently, the chief difference between a Mercenary and a Soldier is in the flexibility of the Mercenary's "other" skills. I would like to see that dialed up some, perhaps with some sort of "can use any kind of weapon" universal W.P. skill, with Soldiers given some class-specific advantages such as fighting better when next to an ally.

Mark Hall wrote:2) Give Man-at-Arms OCCs some additional bonuses. Bonus SDC. Built in attribute bonuses. Specific bonuses to combat skills. Make it so, even if my wizard has HTH Expert, the Man at Arms is a better combatant.

The advantage of wearing metal armor I put into the OP would help here, but yes, I'd like to see this, too. If physical skills can boost one's physical stats, then the arduous physical training that men-at-arms undergo should provide a heftier boost.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I'm not a fan of it. There's a lot of problems with how Palladium handles Men at Arms... they seldom get anything more than "You have a good HTH skill (that a large number of other people can take)" or "You have moderately more SDC than other people"... but preventing everyone else from taking WPs seems a bit extreme.
Agreed. It would be better to rewrite the Man-At-Arms OCC to give them more WPs than to strip everyone else of the ability to take them.

What about just making a few WPs exclusive to MaA and limiting the total number of WPs for other classes? Truthfully I always wanted to do this with both WPs and piloting skills in Rifts but never had cause to do it.

It seems weird that you can have a wizard dual-wielding battle axes in Palladium Fantasy in the rules as written, and it also seems weird that so many classes in Rifts can Zord up and pilot robots and power armor.

As a person who has been GMing and playing Rifts from the beginning I have to say that this is one of the things that brought people into the game. But, in Rifts MaA have powers and advantages that define them outside of the piloting skills.

The thing you might want to look at is experience points per level. There are some OCCs where one of the advantages is rapid level gain and if that is the case with the PFRPG MaA then you might want to be careful what you add to them.
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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Hotrod wrote:
kiralon wrote:I find that no autoparry for non men at arms works best, while they were reading books and learning magic, the men at arms were out there getting muscle memory for auto parry.

and then if they want autoparry they have to spend perks on hth abilities, so they are less effective at magic, and can only autoparry once or twice in a round, depending on perk points spent.


That's an interesting idea. In a way, it's already implemented for many non-men-at-arms classes in Palladium Fantasy who must spend a skill to pick up H-H: Basic, but you take it a step further with the limitation.

I do have a perk that allows someone to get automatic parry even if not a men at arms, but it is with 1 particular weapon type chosen when the perk is taken (ie scimitars, not small swords) and this prevents them from taking the highest tier perks for magic.
So the mages usually take it in wooden staffs, as most magic staffs are made of wood (rather than iron staffs, which do more damage)
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Re: How to Make Melee Equipment Choices Interesting?

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So, let's see, class abilities for the different classes:

Mercenary Fighter: Repair Armor would be a big one. Not a direct combat ability, but something that would make sense and would help with their longevity. I would also see some additional SDC and some broad weapon bonuses (a bonus to strike and parry with all weapons at set intervals).

Soldier: Specific weapon bonuses. Mercenary fighters might get a +1 to strike and parry with any weapon, but a Soldier would get a +2 with a small subset of weapons. I could see giving them something of an MOS to both determine their subset and give them some skills outside their normal range.

Knight: Already has them.

Palladin: Already has them.

Thief: I'd give them a specific ability to use prowl in combat. Nothing as dramatic as "become invisible when people hit you", but "disappear from a fight if no one is engaged with you for a couple of attacks. Might also include specific bonuses with specific weapons (e.g. daggers, knives). Some additional combat options when unarmored.

Assassin: Do they have OCC bonuses already? Anyway, if they don't, I'd be inclined to improve their critical strikes from surprise... give them some bonus damage that only applies then.

Longbowman: Already have them. I would heavily modify the "parry arrows" part, but not in their favor... if I have a shield, there should be a chance that the arrows hit the shield, not me. Even if I'm not TRYING to protect myself from arrows, the fact that I'm carrying a small table should count for something.

Ranger: Some movement benefit, I think. Tactical in PF is so undefined that I've had to make up my own rules, but something that allows them to stay mobile would be good. I'd also be in favor of some broad bonus to strike with bows... not as much as a Longbowman, but something that pushes their niche.
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