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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:20 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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I thought I remembered something in Jungles, but I'm not finding anything.

There's Danzi Spirit Tattoos in Eastern Territory, but I thought there was something else.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 pm
  

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thorr-kan wrote:
I thought I remembered something in Jungles, but I'm not finding anything.

There's Danzi Spirit Tattoos in Eastern Territory, but I thought there was something else.


There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:36 pm
  

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I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:38 am
  

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Champion

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thorr-kan wrote:
I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:22 am
  

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Champion

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Chiang-Ku are described in Dragons and Gods, and the description states that they respect the whole "get rid of all magic" push of that place following the Elf/Dwarf wars, so they don't give out or even use tattoo magic while they're there. I've never particularly cared for this explanation for a few reasons.

First, I don't see an anti-magic or anti-exotic-forms-of-magic theme anywhere in the present setting. There are schools of magic and people who openly use it (wizards, warlocks, mystics, diabolists, summoners, alchemists, and arguably, priests). The Millennium of Purification succeeded in eliminating practitioners of certain schools, but this effort has not persisted to the present, and in fact, many peoples and nations are very keen to rediscover ancient magics.

Second, the Dragons and Gods description states that the Chiang-Ku do this out of respect for the Elves and Dwarves deciding to eliminate this magic from the world, and they are all about "letting the people of a world choose their own direction." This makes no sense. Tattoo magic only works at its best on Chiang-Ku and humans; it doesn't work on dwarves and doesn't work well on elves, so their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down than eliminating the evils of their past (rune magic, nastier types of power circles, et cetera). Furthermore elves and dwarves are minorities in almost every region they inhabit. The species that constitute most of "the people of the world" didn't participate in the millennium of purification and aren't against more exotic forms of magic.

Finally, even if there were some kind of international magic control UN-style organization in Palladium that was actively controlled by the majority of people on the planet, I don't see why Chiang-Ku would abide by outside authorities in restricting what they do. They certainly don't do this in Rifts, the only other setting in which they appear. The Dragons and Gods text suggests that most Chiang-Ku on the Palladium Fantasy world refuse to use their tattoos, even to save their own lives, going so far as to state that only miscreant or diabolic Chiang-Ku would do so. This seems beyond ludicrous to me.

All that said, I'm actually OK with the Chiang-Ku not sharing tattoo magic on the Palladium world on the basis of not interfering with the balance of power between the many races, since it would give humans a huge advantage over almost every other race on the planet. I'd also be ok with a more mysterious rationale stemming from concerns over the Old Ones slumbering in the deep; perhaps tattoo magic has special risks unique to the Palladium Fantasy world?

The canon explanation, however, is nonsense, and I ignore it. If you want to have some tattoo magic, just have a Chiang-Ku give them out. If you want to respect the apparent prohibition on tattoo magic in Palladium Fantasy and you want something like tattoo magic, you can go with the Danzi tattoos or have a diabolist sew a permanence ward on a given character.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 am
  

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I am very much in agreement with Hotrod about the illogical nature of the canon explanation. I can buy it dying out during the Millennium of Purification, but not that the Chiang-Ku would never reintroduce it or even use it. Also, nothing would be stopping a True Atlantean Tattoo Master from setting up shop and empowering some people, be it for noble or ignoble ends.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:53 pm
  

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As an aside, the Danzi (weird cheetah people from Eastern Territories) have a form of magic tattooing, but not True Atlantean Tattoo Magic.

For my part, I view Tattoo Magic in Palladium as being mostly a lost art... no one here knows how to practice it, the elves and dwarves wouldn't have been terribly interested in it (it is horribly painful and disfiguring for elves, dwarves can't use it, and no one cared about humans), and the Chiang-Ku aren't about to introduce a lost magical art into the world, because they respect the Prime Directive (unlike those bastards in Starfleet). Lacking tattoo masters, the art really can't get a foothold anywhere... even if Bob the Chiang-ku came in and gave magic tattoos to 300,000 people, those tattoos will be lost in 60 years or so when everyone dies of old age.

So, someone COULD do these things, but no one necessarily HAS.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:02 pm
  

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Champion

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Mark Hall wrote:
So, someone COULD do these things, but no one necessarily HAS.

Totally agree, maybe it could appear in garden of the gods or another upcoming book to renew it more, but as it is, if you want some magical tattoos you go to the danzi.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:35 pm
  

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kiralon wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:
I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.

I know. So probably my memory confabulating PFRPG undead hunters with Rifts undead slayers.

Thanks, all.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:58 pm
  

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thorr-kan wrote:
kiralon wrote:
thorr-kan wrote:
I could have sworn something about the witch and undead hunters.

Neither do have any tattoo magic.

Tattoo magic is limited to the Danzi.

I know. So probably my memory confabulating PFRPG undead hunters with Rifts undead slayers.

Thanks, all.

The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:39 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.

THAT'S what I remember! Thanks.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:05 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The Chang-Ku dragons are supposedly involved in the creation of the Undead Hunters. And helped to found the monasteries.
But they have not provided the Hunters with Tattoos because 'reasons'.


Where did you get that from? It's not in their description in book 7.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:50 pm
  

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Champion

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It's in the Chiang-Ku dragon description in D&G that it's rumoured that one started, and continues to run the monastery that trains the Undead Hunters, so it might not be true, but the continues to run bit makes me think it's likely that it is.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:11 pm
  

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In my head-canon, Chiang-Ku are also very rare on the Palladium Fantasy world, but the small handful who live there have no prohibition against using their own tattoos. Bestowing tattoos on others is something done very rarely, and only to one who is worthy and has a specific need for a specific tattoo or small combination thereof.

For example, a dragon might empower a warrior to fight undead with the tattoo that grans immunity from vampiric mind control and a simple wooden weapon. Another might provide some healing power tattoos to a worthy psi-healer who has to try to keep up with the astonishing rate of casualties coming in during a high-intensity war (especially since psi-healers suck so badly at their job). Such dragons would likely bestow the subtler, less attention-grabbing tattoos than the flashier and more distinctive tattoos like monster tattoos, and they would not create proper tattooed characters unless the world was literally going to hell (a la major Minion War outbreak all over the planet), so characters would not get more than six tattoos total.

Keep in mind that even a Chiang-Ku dragon in the Palladium Fantasy world might prefer to use other resources to help such characters, like giving them magic items, teaching spells/circles, or using the dragon's network of friends to bring in additional allies.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:31 pm
  

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I'd also point out that empowering a tattoo warrior is a time-intensive process... IIRC, each tattoo takes a while to heal from, and so you have to get them in sequence. Since anyone not a T-man pays double for tattoos, you have to find a sweet spot of "Has lots of PPE" and "Not otherwise a magic-user" for a non-T-man to get much out of an isolated tattoo. (Sure, simple weapons and some things will be fine, but that's not what you really need)

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[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)
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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:20 am
  

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Champion

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Mark Hall wrote:
I'd also point out that empowering a tattoo warrior is a time-intensive process... IIRC, each tattoo takes a while to heal from, and so you have to get them in sequence. Since anyone not a T-man pays double for tattoos, you have to find a sweet spot of "Has lots of PPE" and "Not otherwise a magic-user" for a non-T-man to get much out of an isolated tattoo. (Sure, simple weapons and some things will be fine, but that's not what you really need)


One way in which I might use magic tattoos in the game might go like this:

The characters lose in a fight, and lose badly; they're lucky to have survived at all, and the big bad villain considers them either dead or effectively vanquished. The Chiang-Ku or friends brings the wounded (comatose?) party to a hidden sanctuary. As the characters recuperate, the Chiang-Ku provides some special insight into the Big Bad's nature and bestows magic tattoos specifically catered to help them in their next fight against the Big Bad.

Given the assortment of other ways in which the helper NPC could empower the player characters, tattoos aren't all that necessary, but against some very specific foes or Big Bads, they could be an elegant solution. The fact that they're unheard-of on the Palladium Fantasy world could also be useful.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:50 am
  

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It mentions that "Dragons", presumably Chian-Ku, taught the Danzi how to create their tattoos and that the Danzi respect all good dragons to this day because of it.

I recently posted a theory about Danzi Tattoos being something very different from other apparently similar magics.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:55 am
  

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The Beast wrote:
There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.

That never sat right with me, since you still have summoners bringing in demons and diabolists making permanence wards out of their bones, but somehow it's the magic tats making energy horses that's dangerous.

Hotrod wrote:
their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down

Giving humans the ability to spend PPE to make a knife as needed would be a pretty nice equalizer against Wolfen and their claws


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:25 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The Beast wrote:
There's a line in D&G about Chaing-ku not using tattoo magic since it was purged from PFRPG after the Elf-Dwarf war, but that's it.

That never sat right with me, since you still have summoners bringing in demons and diabolists making permanence wards out of their bones, but somehow it's the magic tats making energy horses that's dangerous.


My rationale, in the MoMm, was that summoning grew out of diabolism after the Millenium of Purification.

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)
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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:51 pm
  

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Champion

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
Circle magic existed in the time of the old ones, as there is a magic circle made of old one blood (used by the old ones)that is in relatively the same format as todays circles (Not that a summoner could make it mind you). I feel that summoning has been around longer than just the time of the purification.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:43 pm
  

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kiralon wrote:
Circle magic existed in the time of the old ones, as there is a magic circle made of old one blood (used by the old ones)that is in relatively the same format as todays circles (Not that a summoner could make it mind you). I feel that summoning has been around longer than just the time of the purification.


Oh, certainly. But, in my version, it was purged during the Millenium Purification, but diabolists rediscovered it subsequently. They have the ability to learn circles, even from one they find on the ground. Someone who decides to delve into this might recreate circle magic.

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)
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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:47 am
  

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Comment: Kill it with Fire.
that makes sense


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:27 am
  

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Palladium has one of those crazy-long fantasy timelines, which, to an extent, work because you have such long-lived races, but which get kinda weird from a technology standpoint (and I include magic in this). The Millennium of Purification ended 7,000 years ago. If we're talking 7000 years ago on earth, we're talking the start of pottery, the domestication of the pig, and the growth of rice. The Sahara was still a savanna in 5000 BCE.

Timiro is 2800 years old. That's the Etruscans, who predated the Romans. That's the beginning of the Iron Age in Europe... we don't even have CELTS at this point. There's no such thing as Irish, Scots, or even Gauls, because they haven't moved out of Germany.

If you give me a tool as powerful as diabolism and 7000 years, I will summon you a host of demons and a host of angels to fight them.

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)
All Palladium Articles
Two Tales of Tellene


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:10 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
Second, the Dragons and Gods description states that the Chiang-Ku do this out of respect for the Elves and Dwarves deciding to eliminate this magic from the world, and they are all about "letting the people of a world choose their own direction." This makes no sense. Tattoo magic only works at its best on Chiang-Ku and humans; it doesn't work on dwarves and doesn't work well on elves, so their decision to eliminate tattoo magic (if that even was a specific thing) was likely more about keeping humans down than eliminating the evils of their past (rune magic, nastier types of power circles, et cetera). Furthermore elves and dwarves are minorities in almost every region they inhabit. The species that constitute most of "the people of the world" didn't participate in the millennium of purification and aren't against more exotic forms of magic.

Perhaps Tattoo magic made the list due to:
-limited racial aspect (only 4 known races, 5 if you consider True Atlanteans a separate race), stamping out a branch of magic seems easier to do than Genocide (given the Purification was to atone for atrocities it seems)
-its deformation impact on Elves (premature aging and attribute hits, a generic Elf T-man OCC in WB2 is going to be aged ~80years and -2IQ and -4PB, never mind some of the other T-OCCs that would hit them harder)
-Tattoo Magic is only defined in Rifts (AFAIK), but there are only a few known subtypes, one of which is a secret (SA1's Monster Shaping) and one is new (SDM's Arrows) from a Splugorth perspective. Perhaps there are other subtypes which justify it and it is unknown to them (or they know about them, but even they don't want to use them).
-Perhaps Tattoo Magic was "associated" with something similar and they couldn't tell the difference between "Tattoo Magic" and "Looks like Tattoo Magic". Rifts Earth does have Line Magic (in SA2, which might be mistaken on their Rune Warrior OCC), not-true T-Magic (in Japan, though the list is 1 or 2 powers). Now I am not saying these two examples are/were on the Palladium World, but they do show that you can have magic that would resemble it.
Perhaps T-Magic's stamping out isn't to keep humans down, but rather to keep Ogres down (enemy to Dwarves and Elves) and humans have to take the hit in order to keep the power from falling into Ogre hands


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:30 pm
  

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Not so sure about ogres... they don't get a major mission on the timeline until 4100 ybp, whereas humans are 14,000 ybp, significantly before the Elf-Dwarf War or the Millennium of Purification.

I wonder if human T-men weren't used as weapons in the Elf-Dwarf war. The potential of tattoo magic to turn normal humans into creatures of magic that happen to be difficult to control juggernauts... with little need to study or learn... might have been a factor in the removal.

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)
All Palladium Articles
Two Tales of Tellene


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:12 pm
  

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Humans were found only in the Yin Sloth Jungles and were almost wiped out in the war of the gods. It's quite likely the reason there was never much interest in Tattoo magic, is simply that there was no one to use it on.


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