I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

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LostOne
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by LostOne »

Kurseteller wrote:There may be a way to have a safe, clean fission reaction. What if the late 21st century has a way of turning lighter elements into heavier element and making the radioactive after the process. And these heavier element has a half-life of weeks instead of century. Remember we have already created new elements already, why not more discovered, possibly, by the Super collider in Europe. That would mean that even if there was a containment breach all the rads would be gone in a couple of weeks. And this process might be more powerful,stable, and/or cheaper than fusion power. That might also solve your power plant size reaction. Remember that modern day fisssion engines are nothing more than advances steam boilers. :D

It's been a long time since I took a class in physics, but isn't there a law of physics that states you can't get more energy out of a reaction than you put into it plus what is stored there? What you're proposing would likely take a ton of energy to make the elements heavier, more so than what we'd get out of it later on. At least that's what it sounds like to me, maybe I'm misunderstanding your intention.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Kurseteller »

LostOne wrote:
Kurseteller wrote:There may be a way to have a safe, clean fission reaction. What if the late 21st century has a way of turning lighter elements into heavier element and making the radioactive after the process. And these heavier element has a half-life of weeks instead of century. Remember we have already created new elements already, why not more discovered, possibly, by the Super collider in Europe. That would mean that even if there was a containment breach all the rads would be gone in a couple of weeks. And this process might be more powerful,stable, and/or cheaper than fusion power. That might also solve your power plant size reaction. Remember that modern day fisssion engines are nothing more than advances steam boilers. :D

It's been a long time since I took a class in physics, but isn't there a law of physics that states you can't get more energy out of a reaction than you put into it plus what is stored there? What you're proposing would likely take a ton of energy to make the elements heavier, more so than what we'd get out of it later on. At least that's what it sounds like to me, maybe I'm misunderstanding your intention.


Not Talking physics. You decided to through out that when you went with giant robots :D I'm talking "realism". Remember a hundred years ago we didn't have half the material component we have today. We have new elements on the periodical table. So why not a new way of doing fission?
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Kurseteller wrote:Not Talking physics. You decided to through out that when you went with giant robots :D I'm talking "realism". Remember a hundred years ago we didn't have half the material component we have today. We have new elements on the periodical table. So why not a new way of doing fission?


Try "verisimilitude"; those extra three syllables really say something.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by runebeo »

After the CS war against Free Quebec I'm sure the Black Market savage a lot spare parts and even a few intact GBs. The education levels in free Quebec is very high and they produce their technology at a very low cost. I'm sure with right connection there can buy any replacement parts you'll ever need if you have the cash. Since most GB pilot had their GB passed down to them from family members theres a good chance of having family members in Free Quebec.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Spinachcat »

Yet another reason I put my Chaos Earth games in 2198. My explanation has always been that this is future tech and operates very differently than today. NEMA tech is built with advanced scientific principles that have yet to be discovered and their most basic machinery does what is today considered impossible.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Spinachcat wrote:Yet another reason I put my Chaos Earth games in 2198. My explanation has always been that this is future tech and operates very differently than today. NEMA tech is built with advanced scientific principles that have yet to be discovered and their most basic machinery does what is today considered impossible.


shoot, 2098 is good enough even with that explanation. look at the new technological principles we use today, and compare it to that of the 20's... and technological progess in many areas is accellerating. so by 2098 there will be technological devices and principles in use we'd find mind boggeling.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by runebeo »

Barenziah58 wrote:Technolgoy and scienceist advance willnot increase forever, it will slow down and level off in the future. Most of the new discover are really minor instead of being great.



I have to agree with you, but maybe the future holds mysteries not even touched in the wildest science fiction movies. The worst thing is we won't be around long enough to find out. I wonder why GB don't have the option to be controlled remotely either by radio controller or verbally or have an artificial intelligence built-in. Sure come in handy if the pilot gets in trouble.
I will be 125 living in Rio de Janeiro when the Great Cataclysm comes, I will not survive long but I will be cloned threw the Achilles project and my clones will be Achilles Neo-Humans that will start a new Jedi order in Psyscape. So You May Strike Me Down & I Will Become More Powerful Than You Can Possibly Imagine. Let the Clone Wars begin!
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Barenziah58 wrote:Technolgoy and scienceist advance willnot increase forever, it will slow down and level off in the future. Most of the new discover are really minor instead of being great.


Possibly, but I also wanted to note that, in slightly more than 60 years, we went from powered, heavier than air, flight, to walking on the moon. New technologies, as they develop, tend to explode. Cybernetics, power armor, AI... all of these have the potential to explode onto the scene.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by keir451 »

Just because Arrak's power plant is decades beyind anything "currently in RIFTS EARTH" doesn't mean that the old school power plants weren't fusion. It just means that the race that Arrak is from has MORE advanced fusion plants, even in reality we are already working on fusion power source prototypes, so it's reasonable to assume that we could hve functional fusion tech withinthe next5-10 years, and yes NEMA WOULD have resupply depots.
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The most excellent point, I believe, is made by Mark Hall, who accurately observes that I'm thinking about fission style reactors. (I am.) Now that I think about it, maybe I only imagined that the text over the decades suggested fission style reactors. When I tried to take a book down from my shelves to look it up, I couldn't remember where, or even if, Palladium Books ever specified any details about the nuclear reactor! Mark Hall could be correct in recognizing that I'm proceeding on potentially false assumptions.


actually, your probably correct. the majority of evidence in RIFTS points to Fission power plants. RUE has a few statements about fusion, but none of them say outright "all atomic plants are fusion".

in fact, if there is such a statement, it invalidates almost 16 years worth of accumulated statements in RIFTS.

for example, the coalition uses nuclear material produced in the atomic powerplants of it's armed forces to make nuclear weapons. a fusion plant cannot produce fissionable materials. but a fission plant will generate a small amount of plutonium and weapons grade uranium as a natural byproduct of operation. it'll produce more if designed as a breeder reactor.

another example. nuclear powerpacks for machinegun mount railguns emit large amounts of dangerous radiation when breached. a fusion powerplant cannot do so, as any damage ot the reactor will cause the fusion raction to cease, thus stop producing radiation. whereas a fission reactor continues to produce radiation through it's chain reaction. if the fission reactor is badly enoughed damaged, it will even meltdown, releasing even more radiation.

and then you have the fact of Arrak Chrome, from mercenaries. who has an "advanced fusion powerplant decades ahead of anything in rifts earth". note that if fusion is the standard powerplant of rifts, it would merel have said "advanced atomic powerplant" instead of saying fusion specifically.

and then you have Mutants in orbit/rifts:space. the Fusion drive is "experimental and untrusted" and somewhat rare.

add in the RUe statements about fusion powered powered armor and fusion turbines (a tech taken from robotech, IIRC), and the existance of a fusion powerpack in merc ops, we can assume that while fusion is present, fission is the common atomic powerplant in use.



and i'd like ot state for the record, that in terms of powerplant lifespan, the length listed is "operational" lifespan. how long it can run continiously. a glitterboy in storage will have it's reactor on standby and tampered, and thus not generating much of any power. at which point the "storage lifespan" of the reactor is going to be however long the fissile materials will last. which tends to be hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years. generally the storage life of a reactor is going ot be determained by how long the casings and control systems can last, not the fuel.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by keir451 »

Actually I thought I'd read somewhere that NEMA lasted for ten years after the coming of the Rifts? Now I can't find that reference.
Any way consider this, If NEMA did have stockpiles of parts and equipment then (as current militaries do) then a CG pilot would know where to go to get a new power core or parts for his/her PA, The genetic mods done to the people of CE also make them smarter, tougher, stronger, faster (Ref. CE p.26 top right column). Some (not all) of these people would survive and pass these mods along (assuming the mods were inheritable). I also believe that not just the CG's would survive, Lt. Gen. Sawyer might have ordered some of the soldiers to disperse into the populace in order to better ensure the survival of the human race and ability to carry on the fight.
All of these soldiers would know where many of the depots were and would access them as needed over the years, tho' in time the knowledge of these depots would be lost due to various reasons. 200 plus years later we arrive at the PA calender and the CS.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

While I appreciate all of the great ideas that many have offered on this subject, I do find one aspect humorous at best. Supply lockers of replacement nuclear reactor fuel rods?

This might stem from a misunderstanding, or rather a lack of understanding, of reactor technology or maintenance. I do not mean for this to sound mocking, or to belittle anybody when I say this, but I will share a little real life knowledge or experience with you that helps to shape my vision or N.E.M.A. (or the New Navy even).

Back in the 1980's, I was a student of the U.S. Navy Nuclear Power School, and toured several nuclear power plants on U.S. submarines and aircraft carriers just to learn some things over the next few decades. I'm not at liberty to discuss details, but the obvious I can mention, which most of the public knows.

The users and maintenance crews of military or compact sized nuclear reactors do not replace spent fuel rods. They monitor the condition and life of the reactive materials, and go back to the yards or special locations for replacement fuel rods.

That is because the U.S. Department of Energy has control over the storage of the materials, the replacement process, etc. There is no reason to believe that N.E.M.A. will become an umbrella organization which regulates energy for the United States, Canada, or Mexico in the next hundred years or more.

If anything changes, it is likely that the Dept. of Energy would see an expansion of responsibility and service as small reactors became commercially available for the many vehicles in the Rifts books.

Or, because the combustion engine and electric engines are present in so many Rifts vehicles, it is possible that government maintained its strict security and environmental safeguards for such materials as required by law.

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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by keir451 »

:lol: Yeah I can see it now; NEMA soldier: "Sir we've runout of power plants for the CG's I'm gonna run over the power core locker an' grab some new ones. Would you sign off on this requisition slip for me sir?"
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

I always figured the "Nuclear Battery" Rifts used worked like Terminator 3 & 4 method. A Hydrogen Fuel Cell deal. People still refer them as "Nuclear" however out of habit.

And Yes, In my game if the battery is damaged, they will explode like in T3 & T4. However, they are usually never damaged even when the robots or power armors or vehicles are destroyed. Which makes them ideal salvage parts.
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

nope, it prettym uch has to be a fission based system, or the material in Sourcebook 4 and worldbook 5 don't work. (SB4 talks about how the CS is making nuclear weapons using material produced by the nuclear powerplants of their warmachines, while WB5 talks about how uranium is readily available to any group able to produce nuclear powerplants...)

it's probable the "nuclear batteries" used by rifts PA and as portable power systems use a version of the Hyperion Power module style "slush core". which uses a container of uranium hydride "slush" as it's heat source. it is self-regulating, low maintenance (no moving parts in the core), and low radiation. and can be hooked up to multipel types of generators, including many compact types. the basic design could also be used with a Thorium based fission fuel, which is safer still (requires some initial input to get a reaction going, but is not fissile naturally), and produces amounts of weapons grade fissile elements (like plutonium) as part of it's fuel cycle.

using such a semi-liquid core design would allow easy replacment of spent fuel. just remove the container with the core, and hook up a new one. radiation sheilding is comparatively simple. lowe end radiation is blocked bythe materials of the core itself, and if you have room temp superconductors (which the golden age tech would allow), you could use a thin layer charged with electricity to stop all higher forms of radiation. (electromagnetic radiation cannot pass through as superconductor. )
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

I agree that nuclear power is the way to go in the future, but don't drink the kool-aide just yet glitterboy2098, because the wikipedia article link you included is nothing more than an advertisement for the product which Hyperion Power is selling.

A reactor design that has never been tested, or built. In fact, other than seminars and media short stories, it's no more real than the reactors in the Terminator movies.

The reactor, about the size of the entire S.A.M.A.S. suit, only provides 5 yrs. of power, or so Hyperion Power hopes.

The government is still in the stages of reading the papers on the theory, while Hyperion has it's hand outstretched looking for green dollars which may be provided by the economic stimulus package.

The reactor would be buried in the ground away from people for shielding, as Hyperion Power has stated, and would not be suitable for a vehicle.

The hydrogen venting to scram the reactor would not be desireable for any Robot vehicles which might have to see combat in a Chaos earth environment.

The reactor coolant pumps and other moving parts are not in the reactor core, but why would they need to be? The power armor would still contain all of these moving parts just outside the core.

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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

except that it's based on a design from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, including prototypes, it is scalable to any size required, SCRAMing a reactor of any form is not going to be good for a rifts robot period, and the coolant pumps and generator are supposed to external, this is a design for the core itself. cooling systems and pumps are always external to the core.

and as i point out, shielding is not a problem (for any reactor, not just HPM's if you have superconductors. superconductors repulse all electromagnetic radiation. this includes X-rays, gamma rays, cosmic rays, and other high end radiation. low end radiation (alpha and beta particles) cannot penetrate the materials used to make the core (alpha can be stopped by a sheet of paper, while beta can be stopped by a sheet of wood...metal, plastic, and ceramic stop them cold.) since golden age tech would include near room temp superconductors and high temp superconductors, radiation sheilding would not be a signifigant problem.


and i find it funny your argueing "but this isn't proven" in regards to this technology, while in a debate over a game set a hundred years from now using unspecified future technologies.....
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

We've found common ground there glitterboy2098, in that we both find it humorous how an argument can arise between two sci-fi fans over nuclear reactors in fighting robots and such.

It's almost as bad as listening to two trekkies argue over warp drive theory.

I respect your viewpoints, even if I don't believe in the company or reactor you used in your example. Even wikipedia couldn't back up or adequately source that material.

But as to the subject of this thread, it seems like we agree. If you think that fissile material replacement or core replacement will be like E-clip replacement, then maybe we don't even agree. (curse at me in Klingon if you like)

Regardless, I enjoy your thoughts and insights.

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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually, i find it funny because people seem to be perfectly ok with using laser rifles in the game, for example. not only is laser weaponry an "untested concept", there are some major hurdles in getting thme as small as a rifle, including high density energy storage mediums, cooling systems to offset the inefficencies of lasing systems, and optical adjustment to ensure sufficently focused beams. but no one is claiming "then they aren't actually lasers".

but when people come in with viable and reasonable explanations of things like the nuclear powerplants, using a technology grounded in real world science and that doesn't have such hurdles to overcome....it's always "but that isn't a proven technology" and "but that can't possibly work, they have to be something else!"

it is to laugh.

But as to the subject of this thread, it seems like we agree. If you think that fissile material replacement or core replacement will be like E-clip replacement, then maybe we don't even agree.

it wouldn't be like swapping out an eclip. more like replacing a car engine. you'd need a skiller mechanic with knowledge of the system (like an operator) you'd need the proper tools and replacement parts (like you'd find at a robot/vehicle repair shop). and you'd need a new fuel core. replacment would be a case of disconnecting the core (which includes the sheilding) from the generator/cooling system components. then removing the old care, putting in the new one, and hooking the generator/cooling systems up to it. the old core can be refilled with new fuel elements later for reuse. (but this would require controlled conditions, access to fresh isotopes, and proper safety measures in the disposal of the waste.) it would simplify the refueling procedure, since new cores can be shipped in with less hazardous material concerns than the raw fuel elements (since they're already in sheilded containers), and reduces the amount of hazardous material protection required from the technical crew (since they would not be handling the raw fuel.)
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Re: I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

Unread post by zaccheus »

Why are we assuming that the lifespan is referring to the core of the power supply. It could very well mean it can operate for 25 years at which point you simply have to refill the coolant or maybe simply switch out a battery or so e other not so dangerous aspect of the reactor.
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