I give the Chromies 20-40 years to survive at best

[Jeffrey W.]

Historian Erin Tarn writes sometime in 84 P.A. that the "Neemans" fought a thousand battles, each time dwindling their numbers, until the Fourth Demon Plague arrived, when N.E.M.A. heroes were outnumbered 5,000:1 and defeated.

Only the Chromium Guardsman survive the fourth Demon Plague, and are passed from one generation to the next.

This starts the Dark Ages, but I forget which year. (Was it 2197 A.D. or similar date?)

Anyways, I digress.

I don't believe that it was the fourth Demon Plague that did in the "Chromies", but rather hypothesize that it might have been a design flaw of the USA-G10.

You see, the Nuclear Power Systems of the CGs are approximately 20 years!

Now, with the Nuclear Winter, the (eventually) 80 feet deep volcanic ash, Blue Zone Demonic Spontaneous Generation, and four Demon Plagues upon the earth... what would you say is the likely hood that every son learn from his father how to (sh*t) replacement fuel rods for the nuclear reactor?

T'ain't happening, Ghostrider!

And yet, the "Boomers" or "Glitter Boys" survive the second Dark Age?

Okay, on a related subject, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm trying to sell if anybody is in the market.

Jeffrey W.
(imagination without limits)

[Misfit KotLD]

A twenty year power supply is a design flaw?

[Jeffrey W.]

The stabilizers, boom gun, and hydraulics last from one generation to the next for centuries without significant parts replacement.

Yet, the fuel rods decay and need replacement consistent with the nuclear reactor systems of the U.S. Navy in the 1970's or 1980's, (although at a much smaller and cleaner package admittedly).

I would argue that a rechargeable E-clip driven system would have made more sense for NEMA and the mission types that could be expected of it for their power armor.

1980's nuclear reactor = design flaw (in my humble opinion) LoL

[Aramanthus]

As for the nuclear power reactor that powers each and every Glitterboy could use the same process that USN uses for their subs. They have almost a 95% U235 in their reactors. With that sort of thought you could just replace the reactor and not worry about pulling the fuel rods and radiation contamination. The unit is obviously small and probably not the difficult to replace. And if the US of that era were intelligent they might have designed the entire suit for easy maintenance. Therefore I have no problem with them surviving the chaos. The military also believes in stockpiling supplies they might need.

[Library Ogre]

The stabilizers, boom gun, and hydraulics last from one generation to the next for centuries without significant parts replacement.

Yet, the fuel rods decay and need replacement consistent with the nuclear reactor systems of the U.S. Navy in the 1970's or 1980's, (although at a much smaller and cleaner package admittedly).

I would argue that a rechargeable E-clip driven system would have made more sense for NEMA and the mission types that could be expected of it for their power armor.

1980's nuclear reactor = design flaw (in my humble opinion) LoL

Where do you get that they have an 80's style reactor? The nuclear power supply has never been clear as to whether it was fission or fusion that powered it. And heck, operators are popular for a reason, right?

[Aramanthus]

Hi Mark, I see we had similiar arguments. I should have mentioned things along that line of thought too. But I went with my own little opinion against his line of thought.

[Dustin Fireblade]

At some point there was likely more machines than there were pilots, so given the salvage and recycle needs of era I'm sure they would make do.

[Jeffrey W.]

I'm in agreement with many of the excellent points that several of you make.

I just think that in response to Misfit KotLD's question about "A twenty year power supply is a design flaw?", actually that would make sense to me for a fission style reactor. It wouldn't be just the Uranium or other fuel used, but the metal fatigue, safety inspection for reactant and coolant leaks, etc.

I think that the true design flaw would be that KLS Corp. and Mindwerks would not design a power armor suit to last hundreds of years of service in the field... it's more likely that those weapons would be ready for retirement by the coming of the Fourth Demon Plague.

During the Great Cataclysm, when NEMA was struggling and trying to regroup in the Midwest, I find it unlikely, as Aramanthus may have been intending to suggest, that the military was well stocked with nuclear reactors. That just doesn't make sense to me.

It would seem to contradict the Energy Department's role in the United States, and eliminate too many existing defense contracts and nuclear power industry safety standards.

The most excellent point, I believe, is made by Mark Hall, who accurately observes that I'm thinking about fission style reactors. (I am.) Now that I think about it, maybe I only imagined that the text over the decades suggested fission style reactors. When I tried to take a book down from my shelves to look it up, I couldn't remember where, or even if, Palladium Books ever specified any details about the nuclear reactor! Mark Hall could be correct in recognizing that I'm proceeding on potentially false assumptions.

I myself attended the U.S. Navy Nuclear Power School in 1986, and began using the USA-G10 in my roleplaying games in 1990. That might explain part of why I interpret some 1970s and 1980s technologies to exist there... but when I look at the computers, firearms, vehicles, and war machines in the other Palladium Books, then my observing the 1970s and 1980s technologies doesn't seem to be very far off the mark, does it Mark?

Great points made by several of you, and score by Mark Hall!

Also, whipped4073 makes an excellent point. Regardless of the nuclear fuel source, I find readily replacement fuels for the reactor highly improbable at best. It would seem that Techno-wizardry would have become the more accepted evolution for the Glitter Boy power armor over the centuries! Yes?

[Dustin Fireblade]

During the Great Cataclysm, when NEMA was struggling and trying to regroup in the Midwest, I find it unlikely, as Aramanthus may have been intending to suggest, that the military was well stocked with nuclear reactors. That just doesn't make sense to me.

It would seem to contradict the Energy Department's role in the United States, and eliminate too many existing defense contracts and nuclear power industry safety standards.

Why wouldn't there be a stock of spare's and other parts? Logistics win wars, and it was a 2nd Cold War.

[NMI]

NEMA could have made it a priority at one point to capture/secure GB manufacturing plants as well as SAMAS manufacturing, etc...

[Jeffrey W.]

Right you are, Mr. Deific NMI, because we read in Rifts Sourcebook One, Revised that in 2159 C.E. that after the New Republic falls in battle against the forces of Lord Splynncryth, an army of the remaining 80 Glitter Boys and 1,240 other troops launches an attack on the HQ-ECC.

They were trying to take by force the complex which A.R.C.H.I.E. Three denied them entry into six months prior.

We also know that in 2102 C.E., and for 20 years thereafter, A.R.C.H.I.E. Three provides weapons, armor, and Chromium Guardsman power armor suits, even thour he denies entry into the complex.

For nearly 150 years, he plants caches of 6-24 weapons or armors for human defenders to find throughout the Dark Age.

Clearly, "NEMA could have made it a priority at one point to capture/secure GB manufacturing plants as well as SAMAS manufacturing, etc..." as you suggested, and they did try (and fail).

[NMI]

Right you are, Mr. Deific NMI, because we read in Rifts Sourcebook One, Revised that in 2159 C.E. that after the New Republic falls in battle against the forces of Lord Splynncryth, an army of the remaining 80 Glitter Boys and 1,240 other troops launches an attack on the HQ-ECC.

They were trying to take by force the complex which A.R.C.H.I.E. Three denied them entry into six months prior.

We also know that in 2102 C.E., and for 20 years thereafter, A.R.C.H.I.E. Three provides weapons, armor, and Chromium Guardsman power armor suits, even thour he denies entry into the complex.

For nearly 150 years, he plants caches of 6-24 weapons or armors for human defenders to find throughout the Dark Age.

Clearly, "NEMA could have made it a priority at one point to capture/secure GB manufacturing plants as well as SAMAS manufacturing, etc..." as you suggested, and they did try (and fail).

The ARCHIE complex doesnt mean its the only one. Obviously there was one in the canadian region for Free Quebec to eventualy secure. Who is to say there wasnt more?

[glitterboy2098]

The most excellent point, I believe, is made by Mark Hall, who accurately observes that I'm thinking about fission style reactors. (I am.) Now that I think about it, maybe I only imagined that the text over the decades suggested fission style reactors. When I tried to take a book down from my shelves to look it up, I couldn't remember where, or even if, Palladium Books ever specified any details about the nuclear reactor! Mark Hall could be correct in recognizing that I'm proceeding on potentially false assumptions.

actually, your probably correct. the majority of evidence in RIFTS points to Fission power plants. RUE has a few statements about fusion, but none of them say outright "all atomic plants are fusion".

in fact, if there is such a statement, it invalidates almost 16 years worth of accumulated statements in RIFTS.

for example, the coalition uses nuclear material produced in the atomic powerplants of it's armed forces to make nuclear weapons. a fusion plant cannot produce fissionable materials. but a fission plant will generate a small amount of plutonium and weapons grade uranium as a natural byproduct of operation. it'll produce more if designed as a breeder reactor.

another example. nuclear powerpacks for machinegun mount railguns emit large amounts of dangerous radiation when breached. a fusion powerplant cannot do so, as any damage ot the reactor will cause the fusion raction to cease, thus stop producing radiation. whereas a fission reactor continues to produce radiation through it's chain reaction. if the fission reactor is badly enoughed damaged, it will even meltdown, releasing even more radiation.

and then you have the fact of Arrak Chrome, from mercenaries. who has an "advanced fusion powerplant decades ahead of anything in rifts earth". note that if fusion is the standard powerplant of rifts, it would merel have said "advanced atomic powerplant" instead of saying fusion specifically.

and then you have Mutants in orbit/rifts:space. the Fusion drive is "experimental and untrusted" and somewhat rare.

add in the RUe statements about fusion powered powered armor and fusion turbines (a tech taken from robotech, IIRC), and the existance of a fusion powerpack in merc ops, we can assume that while fusion is present, fission is the common atomic powerplant in use.



and i'd like ot state for the record, that in terms of powerplant lifespan, the length listed is "operational" lifespan. how long it can run continiously. a glitterboy in storage will have it's reactor on standby and tampered, and thus not generating much of any power. at which point the "storage lifespan" of the reactor is going to be however long the fissile materials will last. which tends to be hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years. generally the storage life of a reactor is going ot be determained by how long the casings and control systems can last, not the fuel.

[Jeffrey W.]

Right you are again, Mr. Deific NMI, and many existing Rifts Worldbooks talk about other peoples (post NEMA) which make discoveries of USA-G10 stockpiles and sometimes even replacement parts or manufacturing capabilities.

In the Chaos Earth setting, General Sawyer makes mention in the early months of the Great Cataclysm how coming to Chicago might not have been such a good idea. She mentions salvage operations, and running low on stuff. Sounds to me like midwest NEMA Ops weren't doing so well for a time period. (Good writing on Siembieda's part, actually).

Even better writing on Siembieda's part tells of a NEMA Op to retake the greatest Chromium Guardsman factory in North America, so I thought that was worth mentioning (and admiring the gravity of that situation).

I eccho your words "The ARCHIE complex doesnt mean its the only one. Obviously there was one in the canadian region for Free Quebec to eventualy secure. Who is to say there wasnt more?" and agree.

I suspect that Free Quebec stumbled upon Canada's largest (or perhaps only) USA-G10 factory... which makes me wonder if Mexico might still have a large factory of their own down in the Vampire Infested Lands just waiting to be liberated?

Could make for an interesting adventure.

[Aramanthus]

Jason is writting the next couple of books. I suppose we'll have to wait and see if he adds something in for the other locations of the other Chromium Guardian factories.

As for my previous statement, I stand by it. I lived thru a great deal of the cold war, I know the US Military stockpiled many things. And in the 2nd cold war I feel that the same thing will occur.

GMs will have to make up their own minds as to how they want to run it.

[runebeo]

I think a few Glitter Boy 7's from South America should be included among North American Glitter Boy ranks. I can't believe Free Quebec did not included them in their book. Maybe their not as common after the fourth demons wiped most of them out and that's why only South America has them in Rifts time line. Well their dam cool looking and gives GB pilots more options with out the pylons and sonic boom that makes sneaking up on enemies a little hard.

[Chad]

I don't really understand what the hell everyone is talking about here.
Didn't NEMA fall after a couple of decades or so?
Weren't they wiped out?
The 20yr power supply would seem to coincide with their nonexistence.

Unless I've been playing the game wrong all these years?

I've always thought:

...and when their power armor gave out, they fought with their MD rifles.

...and when their E-clips ran dry, they pulled out their Vibro-blades.

...and when they no longer had that, they fought with sticks, and stones, and their bare hands.

For never in my life have I seen such bravery in the face of death. Never have I seen...

(yeah, modified from B-5 in case your wondering)

[Dustin Fireblade]

I don't really understand what the hell everyone is talking about here.
Didn't NEMA fall after a couple of decades or so?
Weren't they wiped out?
The 20yr power supply would seem to coincide with their nonexistence.

Unless I've been playing the game wrong all these years?

Yes NEMA was wiped out, that's not really the issue presented by the OP. The problem he see's, and it's a legit concern, is how the Glitter Boys were passed down from generation to generation without any apparent industrial and tech support. Where did the new power supplies come from, or armor repair, ammo, electronics replaced, etc?

Yet the GB pilot's were one of the reasons that humanity survived in North America during those years between NEMA fell and the creation of the PA calendar.

[LostOne]

I think that the true design flaw would be that KLS Corp. and Mindwerks would not design a power armor suit to last hundreds of years of service in the field...

Why would they?

"Let's design a power armor that lasts so long without repairs that our company never needs to sell more units and we go bankrupt."

"Let's design a power armor that lasts 100 years of military service even though the technology in it will likely be obsolete and available off-the-shelf in a decade or two."

Where is the logic in building military grade vehicles to last so long? If it is actually seeing combat eventually it will need to be replaced due to either unrepairable damage or damage that is so manually intensive to fix that it is cheaper to replace large sections of it rather than rewiring miles of fiberoptic cable or other wiring. If it is not seeing active duty, then parts will degrade in storage due to exposure to the elements (desert heat, dry air in a hangar somewhere, or dry frigid air in a tundra area).

[glitterboy2098]

I don't really understand what the hell everyone is talking about here.
Didn't NEMA fall after a couple of decades or so?
Weren't they wiped out?
The 20yr power supply would seem to coincide with their nonexistence.

Unless I've been playing the game wrong all these years?

Yes NEMA was wiped out, that's not really the issue presented by the OP. The problem he see's, and it's a legit concern, is how the Glitter Boys were passed down from generation to generation without any apparent industrial and tech support. Where did the new power supplies come from, or armor repair, ammo, electronics replaced, etc?

Yet the GB pilot's were one of the reasons that humanity survived in North America during those years between NEMA fell and the creation of the PA calendar.

easy. scavenging, scrounging, and bodging "junkyard wars style"...

[Dustin Fireblade]

easy. scavenging, scrounging, and bodging "junkyard wars style"...

I already said as much up thread ya nut.

[panzerfaust]

Historian Erin Tarn writes sometime in 84 P.A. that the "Neemans" fought a thousand battles, each time dwindling their numbers, until the Fourth Demon Plague arrived, when N.E.M.A. heroes were outnumbered 5,000:1 and defeated.

Only the Chromium Guardsman survive the fourth Demon Plague, and are passed from one generation to the next.

This starts the Dark Ages, but I forget which year. (Was it 2197 A.D. or similar date?)

Anyways, I digress.

I don't believe that it was the fourth Demon Plague that did in the "Chromies", but rather hypothesize that it might have been a design flaw of the USA-G10.

You see, the Nuclear Power Systems of the CGs are approximately 20 years!

Now, with the Nuclear Winter, the (eventually) 80 feet deep volcanic ash, Blue Zone Demonic Spontaneous Generation, and four Demon Plagues upon the earth... what would you say is the likely hood that every son learn from his father how to (sh*t) replacement fuel rods for the nuclear reactor?

T'ain't happening, Ghostrider!

And yet, the "Boomers" or "Glitter Boys" survive the second Dark Age?

Okay, on a related subject, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm trying to sell if anybody is in the market.

Jeffrey W.
(imagination without limits)

It a fusion reactor that runs on hydrogen . It would make sense that it could be refueled by plain old water (combined with a battery to jumpstart the fusion reaction) it likely has the processing gear to seperate water in to hydrogen and oxygen (likely a given considering this is a military vehicle also intended for space exploration), using the hydrogen for fuel.... As for these suits lasting centuries, it's possible that they (nothing withstands general wear, tear, and corrosion like M.D.C. materials) could IMHO

[glitterboy2098]

I think a few Glitter Boy 7's from South America should be included among North American Glitter Boy ranks. I can't believe Free Quebec did not included them in their book. Maybe their not as common after the fourth demons wiped most of them out and that's why only South America has them in Rifts time line. Well their dam cool looking and gives GB pilots more options with out the pylons and sonic boom that makes sneaking up on enemies a little hard.

meh, i usually try to ignore the existance of those. it's existance seems to be tied ot a failure ot note that it was USA-G10's involved in the Guada Marta incident.

It a fusion reactor that runs on hydrogen . It would make sense that it could be refueled by plain old water (combined with a battery to jumpstart the fusion reaction) it likely has the processing gear to seperate water in to hydrogen and oxygen (likely a given considering this is a military vehicle also intended for space exploration), using the hydrogen for fuel.... As for these suits lasting centuries, it's possible that they (nothing withstands general wear, tear, and corrosion like M.D.C. materials) could IMHO

except that, as i pointed out, the majority of evidence in RIFTS points to Fission powerplants on most earth robots and PA.

so to refuel, you'd need a source of the appropriate heavy metal isotopes.

generally, i can see glitterboy pilots in the dark age being very "local hero/guardian" types, picking an area/town/city and fighting to protect it. which means they could have a cache of damaged or incomplete NEMA GB's from which to scavenge parts and unused fission fuel (or entire reactor modules), and likely an operator or other technician that has learned the quirks of repairing if not GB's as a whole, that one suit. (perhaps GB's and other NEMA suits use a modular design, so to fix a damaged...elbow actuator..you just have to disconnect a few bolts and wires and attach a new one. plug and play systems. thus the complicated repairs are when you have to craft new spares from scratch...)

[panzerfaust]

It a fusion reactor that runs on hydrogen . It would make sense that it could be refueled by plain old water (combined with a battery to jumpstart the fusion reaction) it likely has the processing gear to seperate water in to hydrogen and oxygen (likely a given considering this is a military vehicle also intended for space exploration), using the hydrogen for fuel.... As for these suits lasting centuries, it's possible that they (nothing withstands general wear, tear, and corrosion like M.D.C. materials) could IMHO

except that, as i pointed out, the majority of evidence in RIFTS points to Fission powerplants on most earth robots and PA.

so to refuel, you'd need a source of the appropriate heavy metal isotopes.

generally, i can see glitterboy pilots in the dark age being very "local hero/guardian" types, picking an area/town/city and fighting to protect it. which means they could have a cache of damaged or incomplete NEMA GB's from which to scavenge parts and unused fission fuel (or entire reactor modules), and likely an operator or other technician that has learned the quirks of repairing if not GB's as a whole, that one suit. (perhaps GB's and other NEMA suits use a modular design, so to fix a damaged...elbow actuator..you just have to disconnect a few bolts and wires and attach a new one. plug and play systems. thus the complicated repairs are when you have to craft new spares from scratch...)

*shrugs* Meh, I just chalk it up to the folks at Palladium being game designers and not nuclear physisists (it's a scientific impossibility to build a fission reactor that small and an isatope reactor wouldn't put out enough power to run these things), they seem to be going with fusion Reactors these days at palladium anyway and there are two kinds of fusion reactor the "Hot" Fusion Reactor (I "Think" it's called a tokamak (S.P.?) reactor and the "Cold" Fusion Reactor.... The former, I believe, would put out a fair amount of deadly radition if breached or the shielding is damaged. In other words I ignore the referances to fission reactors as being non sensical.... (Granted that there ARE things in Rifts that stretch versimilitude though)....

[Jason Richards]

On the nuclear power issue, I can't speak for others, but here is my take on it:

Chaos Earth/Rifts is, at least in part, a science fiction setting. One of the hallmarks of that genre is that the author asks his audience to accept one or two leaps in technological advance that are required to make the setting function. Warp or hyperspace are classic examples of this phenomenon, or the near-lightspeed travel in Ender's Game, various effects of melange/spice in Dune, or genetic manipulation in the extreme from Gattaca.

For Chaos Earth/Rifts, one of these leaps is that of power sources (a very common leap in sci-fi). We're asked to take on faith that there are small, safe, and durable sources of power to fuel the technology. We call it something fancy like "micro-fusion reactor" or "E-Clip," and move on with the story. That's not to say that it should be TOTALLY ignored, but ultimately the efforts made to explain the function of such things are basically a healthy dose of handwavium.

By doing this, Chaos Earth/Rifts avoids a huge mistake of a lot of scifi. Much of the genre gets so caught up in its own setting (often via technology) that it fails as a storytelling medium. All of the best stories and settings are about people. A good setting is nice, and there are certain levels of required quality there, but even with the most complete, perfect setting ever, if that setting gets in the way of a reader (or role-player) moving around in and interacting with the world without obstruction, then it's a detraction rather than a benefit.

[Spinachcat]

My take on Chromes is they have a 20 year continuous usage power plant and that whenever the PA is shut off, that time doesn't count toward the 20 years.

My take on Glitterboys is that players start with a techno-junkheap that is barely holding together unless under constant maintenance and futzing with odd parts to make sure its combat ready when needed.

I suspect that Free Quebec stumbled upon Canada's largest (or perhaps only) USA-G10 factory... which makes me wonder if Mexico might still have a large factory of their own down in the Vampire Infested Lands just waiting to be liberated?

Could make for an interesting adventure.

Write that adventure up for the Rifter!!!

[glitterboy2098]

shrugs* Meh, I just chalk it up to the folks at Palladium being game designers and not nuclear physisists (it's a scientific impossibility to build a fission reactor that small and an isatope reactor wouldn't put out enough power to run these things), they seem to be going with fusion Reactors these days at palladium anyway and there are two kinds of fusion reactor the "Hot" Fusion Reactor (I "Think" it's called a tokamak (S.P.?) reactor and the "Cold" Fusion Reactor.... The former, I believe, would put out a fair amount of deadly radition if breached or the shielding is damaged.

actually, it is possible to build a fission reactor small enough, it's just you have to get into things like subcritical reactors and the use of alternate ways of converting the heat/radiation into power. as for "unable to run these things", you only need a half dozen megawatts of power or so. something easily outperformed today with nuke plants the size of a small car. and most of that is the steam turbine.

as for fusion, 'hot' fusion uses stellar core temps and pressures, contained magnetically. if the shielding is damaged, the entire reactor shuts down because it cannot keep the heat up.
a tokamak is just one of several ways researchers have been trying to build a viable fusion reactor. a tokamak uses a doughnut shaped reaction chamber, as opposed to spherical chamber like many other designs.

cold fusion uses hydrogen dissolved in a solution of other chemicals, and is little more than a fancy chemical battery. it [theoretically] generates more energy than a battery of the same mass, but not that much more. it generates little to no radiation, but mostly because it has little actual reaction going on.


hot fusion does exist in RIFTS. as i pointed out, there is the "plasma drive" in MiO and Arrak Chrome's powerplant, as well as that portable powerplant in mercenaries. but MiO points out that the technology is unreliable. and bulding a fusion drive is easier than a fusion powerplant. a drive is basically an open ended fusion chamber. you do not need to generate a sustained fusion reaction, like with a reactor. nor do you need to greatly exceed the break even point, although you at least want to be at the point, otherwise it's not a very efficent drive.

so if a fusion drive was considered unreliable by golden age humanity, how can we assume the more complicated and more difficult powerplants were any better?

[panzerfaust]

shrugs* Meh, I just chalk it up to the folks at Palladium being game designers and not nuclear physisists (it's a scientific impossibility to build a fission reactor that small and an isatope reactor wouldn't put out enough power to run these things), they seem to be going with fusion Reactors these days at palladium anyway and there are two kinds of fusion reactor the "Hot" Fusion Reactor (I "Think" it's called a tokamak (S.P.?) reactor and the "Cold" Fusion Reactor.... The former, I believe, would put out a fair amount of deadly radition if breached or the shielding is damaged.

actually, it is possible to build a fission reactor small enough, it's just you have to get into things like subcritical reactors and the use of alternate ways of converting the heat/radiation into power. as for "unable to run these things", you only need a half dozen megawatts of power or so. something easily outperformed today with nuke plants the size of a small car. and most of that is the steam turbine.

as for fusion, 'hot' fusion uses stellar core temps and pressures, contained magnetically. if the shielding is damaged, the entire reactor shuts down because it cannot keep the heat up.
a tokamak is just one of several ways researchers have been trying to build a viable fusion reactor. a tokamak uses a doughnut shaped reaction chamber, as opposed to spherical chamber like many other designs.

cold fusion uses hydrogen dissolved in a solution of other chemicals, and is little more than a fancy chemical battery. it [theoretically] generates more energy than a battery of the same mass, but not that much more. it generates little to no radiation, but mostly because it has little actual reaction going on.


hot fusion does exist in RIFTS. as i pointed out, there is the "plasma drive" in MiO and Arrak Chrome's powerplant, as well as that portable powerplant in mercenaries. but MiO points out that the technology is unreliable. and bulding a fusion drive is easier than a fusion powerplant. a drive is basically an open ended fusion chamber. you do not need to generate a sustained fusion reaction, like with a reactor. nor do you need to greatly exceed the break even point, although you at least want to be at the point, otherwise it's not a very efficent drive.

so if a fusion drive was considered unreliable by golden age humanity, how can we assume the more complicated and more difficult powerplants were any better?

*shrugs* Again I don't see people being comfortable with having miliions of Extremely Dirty "Fission" Reactors running around on a battlefield where they could get blown up and contamnitate large areas of land for centuries, I just don't see the people of the golden age consenting to it, Yes the military has em today but they are only around in the order the number of the DOZENS not HUNDRENDS OF THOUSANDS, As to mutants in orbit tech, read again, they DON'T have golden age tech, 'cept maybe the CAN Republic (and they don't share). In the end they can be whatever you want them to be in your games, I just treat them as Fusion Reactor and ignore the "Spill Levels of Dangerous Radiation Sentences." I don't take any thing in the books COMPLETELY as gospel when I run, far extreames can be fun to play but usually aren't the case. I don't make M.D.C. tech exclusive to just a few powerers on Chaos earth for instance, most everyone has it, though it's likely primitative compared to the super-powers though. For instance Bionic technology not only survived the cataclysm but thrived, according to the Bionics Sourcebook (though it WAS reduced to a more primitive level). When I run Rifts also, the CS, Free Quebec, and the Big Arms Maker of North America, AREN'T THE ONLY makers of M.D.C. items (they are just the biggest and most advanced) there are hundreds of little, hand building shops, to small factories that make a lot of M.D.C. items for their own use or sale. Then you have operator who have been around sice the Dark Ages maintaining what was there and building, (primitive) new items..... Making sweeping statments can make for a fun story but aren't/won't be alway 100% acurate..... Do what you want in your games I'll do what I want. It's all about having fun!

[panzerfaust]

On the nuclear power issue, I can't speak for others, but here is my take on it:

Chaos Earth/Rifts is, at least in part, a science fiction setting. One of the hallmarks of that genre is that the author asks his audience to accept one or two leaps in technological advance that are required to make the setting function. Warp or hyperspace are classic examples of this phenomenon, or the near-lightspeed travel in Ender's Game, various effects of melange/spice in Dune, or genetic manipulation in the extreme from Gattaca.

For Chaos Earth/Rifts, one of these leaps is that of power sources (a very common leap in sci-fi). We're asked to take on faith that there are small, safe, and durable sources of power to fuel the technology. We call it something fancy like "micro-fusion reactor" or "E-Clip," and move on with the story. That's not to say that it should be TOTALLY ignored, but ultimately the efforts made to explain the function of such things are basically a healthy dose of handwavium.

By doing this, Chaos Earth/Rifts avoids a huge mistake of a lot of scifi. Much of the genre gets so caught up in its own setting (often via technology) that it fails as a storytelling medium. All of the best stories and settings are about people. A good setting is nice, and there are certain levels of required quality there, but even with the most complete, perfect setting ever, if that setting gets in the way of a reader (or role-player) moving around in and interacting with the world without obstruction, then it's a detraction rather than a benefit.

I absoutely agree, but SOMETIMES it's important to KNOW these things when you run a game, I make the power plants fusion cause it makes SENSE to me as a GM. And I understand it's VERY neccessary for Handwavium (Coughs... Psionics... Coughs Magics.... Coughs.... Demons...) and I only change things when they don't make sense to me personally....... by the way how is Chaos Earth First Responders Comming?

[Jason Richards]

Having some internal consistency and having things make sense to you is very important. It's tough to use something in a game if you don't understand it or everytime it comes up you think, "Ugh, I hate that."

First Responders is well on its way and should be completely done and edited by Gen Con. I talked to Kevin today and it might be a little longer than I hoped to get it to the presses, but I'll continue to work on the next project in any case (probably Psychic Storm).

[panzerfaust]

Having some internal consistency and having things make sense to you is very important. It's tough to use something in a game if you don't understand it or everytime it comes up you think, "Ugh, I hate that."

First Responders is well on its way and should be completely done and edited by Gen Con. I talked to Kevin today and it might be a little longer than I hoped to get it to the presses, but I'll continue to work on the next project in any case (probably Psychic Storm).

I oredered the Books for the Rise of Magic and the supernatural Beasties of Chaos Earth a couple of Days ago... Speaking of Maintaining Glitter Boy is a Post-Apocalyptic Enviroment Can you tell me bout the Technophite O.C.c. in Rise of Magic? Is it a sort of Prototyphical-Technowizard as I think?

[Dustin Fireblade]

... Speaking of Maintaining Glitter Boy is a Post-Apocalyptic Enviroment Can you tell me bout the Technophite O.C.c. in Rise of Magic? Is it a sort of Prototyphical-Technowizard as I think?

Technophite? Sorry unless there's been some additions to this book in a later printing there's no such OCC in the RoM book.

[panzerfaust]

... Speaking of Maintaining Glitter Boy is a Post-Apocalyptic Enviroment Can you tell me bout the Technophite O.C.c. in Rise of Magic? Is it a sort of Prototyphical-Technowizard as I think?

Technophite? Sorry unless there's been some additions to this book in a later printing there's no such OCC in the RoM book.

Hmm... it's mentioned in one of the Rifter preveiwing Chaos Earth that have some of the CE magic O.C.C.s in it...... What are the O.C.C.s in there and what are they like?

[Dustin Fireblade]

... Speaking of Maintaining Glitter Boy is a Post-Apocalyptic Enviroment Can you tell me bout the Technophite O.C.c. in Rise of Magic? Is it a sort of Prototyphical-Technowizard as I think?

Technophite? Sorry unless there's been some additions to this book in a later printing there's no such OCC in the RoM book.

Hmm... it's mentioned in one of the Rifter preveiwing Chaos Earth that have some of the CE magic O.C.C.s in it...... What are the O.C.C.s in there and what are they like?

You have -
1. Blue Zone Wizard (1st generation Ley Line Walker)
2. Chaos Wizard (1st generation Mystic)
3. D-Shifter (1st generation Shifter)

Then as servants of evil & darkness you have -
1. Chaos Witch
2. Death Mage (Necromancer)
3. Demonbringer
4. Demon Caller (A Shifter -ry type)
5. Demon Disciple (mage who worships demons in return for power)
6. Demon Worshipper (no power, just a standard worshipper included for sake of completeness)
7. Doomsayer (the crazy guy on the street corner who has been saying the "End is Near!" for years)

[panzerfaust]

You have -
1. Blue Zone Wizard (1st generation Ley Line Walker)
2. Chaos Wizard (1st generation Mystic)
3. D-Shifter (1st generation Shifter)

Then as servants of evil & darkness you have -
1. Chaos Witch
2. Death Mage (Necromancer)
3. Demonbringer
4. Demon Caller (A Shifter -ry type)
5. Demon Disciple (mage who worships demons in return for power)
6. Demon Worshipper (no power, just a standard worshipper included for sake of completeness)
7. Doomsayer (the crazy guy on the street corner who has been saying the "End is Near!" for years)

Hmm.....What's the D-Shifter (1st Gen Shifter) like compared to the "Later" Ones?

[Dustin Fireblade]

The D-Shifter is much more of a Ley Line energy manipulator than the Shifter, but the D-Shifter can still do such things as recognize ID dimensional portals, dimensional beings/supernatural beings. Rather than use a spell to re-open a rift the D-Shifter can do it as a ability, plus the D-Shifter can duplicate any type of dimensional magic spell he's been exposed to.

Basically it might be seen as what a smashed together Mystic and Shifter might look like

[Jason Richards]

FYI, there will not be Techno-Wizardry in any form in Chaos Earth.

[panzerfaust]

FYI, there will not be Techno-Wizardry in any form in Chaos Earth.

Understood, was just asking due to "Technophite" Magic O.C.C. being mentioned in a rifter previewing parts of chaos earth that all..... When you do Psychic Storm Please DO a "Prototyphical Psi-Tech" type O.C.C. as well.

The D-Shifter is much more of a Ley Line energy manipulator than the Shifter, but the D-Shifter can still do such things as recognize ID dimensional portals, dimensional beings/supernatural beings. Rather than use a spell to re-open a rift the D-Shifter can do it as a ability, plus the D-Shifter can duplicate any type of dimensional magic spell he's been exposed to.

Basically it might be seen as what a smashed together Mystic and Shifter might look like

Cool..... I Will look into playing one on EU then sometime, when my book gets delivered.

[runebeo]

Maybe its a Terminator like story were a Techno-Wizard came from the future and taught some others his type of wizardry. Techno-Wizards sure would come in handy in the new time-line.

[Jason Richards]

FYI, there will not be Techno-Wizardry in any form in Chaos Earth.

Well, definitely not at the start, since the background on the Techno-Wizard says that it was developed on Rifts Earth after the Cataclysm (i.e. after 2098).

Although I do have a couple of questions:

1. Do we have at least an idea of when Techno-Wizardry appeared? I mean, was it developed after 1 P.A., or was it sometime during the Dark Ages, & if so when?

2. Since the other mage types seem to have predecessors in Chaos Earth (i.e. Blue Zone Wizard ==> Ley Line Walker), would it be possible for a predecessor class of the Techno-Wizard to develop on Chaos Earth -- possibly within NEMA or its survivors to "boost" their technology for additional performance against the new supernatural threats -- and if so, how long would it take for such a predecessor to start showing up?

I believe that somewhere in Rifts canon in pegs the origins of TW with Lazlo, which would make it a very "new" magic at the time of Rifts, relatively speaking. Definitely within the lifetime of the PA calendar, I think.

Let me preface this next statement by noting that I haven't put anything to paper yet, and I don't know what Kevin has in mind for the setting. However, I think that as important as it is to have some direct links between Chaos Earth and Rifts (Glittery Boy and the Blue Zone Wizard are the best examples), it is even more important that MOST things do NOT have direct links.

I hold this opinion for several reasons:

1. There are centuries between Chaos Earth and Rifts, most of which is a Dark Age where society effectively ceases to exist in any meaningful form. There's no real reason that there would be a lot of direct connections between these two eras that survive this sort of test. Some things would, but most things wouldn't.

2. Having a lot of crossover limits the utility of source material. If I create an OCC that is basically a Conjurer (for example) by another name, or with very similar powers and such, then it limits the usefulness of that class to Rifts players looking to bring in something different into their Rifts game, and it robs the Chaos Earth player of the opportunity to port the Conjurer over to Chaos Earth. I would rather have a very broad base of material rather than retreading familiar ground. That goes for me being a gamer and game designer as well as being an author in general; I want to create NEW things.

3. Chaos Earth is related to Rifts, but it's a different game, and a different gaming experience. While it's cool to think about the links to Rifts, I think that making them direct and obvious robs Chaos Earth of its potential. One thing that I think you'll see over the next couple of years as Chaos Earth really gets fleshed out is that it's a very different world from Rifts, and a very different place for your characters to adventure. So much of Chaos Earth is about the human drama of the end of the world and just trying to survive from day to day, much less see it through to the end.

Man, I love Chaos Earth.

[Aramanthus]

Cool! thank you for your im[put on this topic Jason! And thanks for the little hint of what we can expect.

[Spinachcat]

However, I think that as important as it is to have some direct links between Chaos Earth and Rifts (Glittery Boy and the Blue Zone Wizard are the best examples), it is even more important that MOST things do NOT have direct links.

I support this 10,000%.

I enjoy Rifts and Chaos Earth and my interest is much more in how gameplay and themes are different than dwelling on similiarities. I like foreshadowing ties, but not direct links. I enjoy the "Wow, look what was lost!" aspect of Chaos Earth and the more of that in the books, the more the game stands as its own beast.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the CGs will last as long as the maintance is getting done , but given the conditions of Chaos Earth , finding parts will be the top order of the day. without them then the CGs will have a short lifespan but with maintance and a fresh supply of parts then the chance of them lasting longer , even it come down to cannibalizing parts from ones the can no longer be able work, and with archie 3 leaving new ones or parts out to be found.

[Aramanthus]

That never hurts keeping humanity one step away from it's destruction.

[Tiree]

I was re-reading about the Achilles Neo-Humans and found the GB-7. I think it is quite likely that some of those manufacturing plants survived, and are in working condition for many decades after the coming of the Rifts.

But that is my interpretation on what is going on.

[Aramanthus]

I agree with your opinion Tiree! I think that is another source which keep humanity on the map!

[9voltkilowatt]

On the nuclear power issue, I can't speak for others, but here is my take on it:

Chaos Earth/Rifts is, at least in part, a science fiction setting. One of the hallmarks of that genre is that the author asks his audience to accept one or two leaps in technological advance that are required to make the setting function. Warp or hyperspace are classic examples of this phenomenon, or the near-lightspeed travel in Ender's Game, various effects of melange/spice in Dune, or genetic manipulation in the extreme from Gattaca.

For Chaos Earth/Rifts, one of these leaps is that of power sources (a very common leap in sci-fi). We're asked to take on faith that there are small, safe, and durable sources of power to fuel the technology. We call it something fancy like "micro-fusion reactor" or "E-Clip," and move on with the story. That's not to say that it should be TOTALLY ignored, but ultimately the efforts made to explain the function of such things are basically a healthy dose of handwavium.

By doing this, Chaos Earth/Rifts avoids a huge mistake of a lot of scifi. Much of the genre gets so caught up in its own setting (often via technology) that it fails as a storytelling medium. All of the best stories and settings are about people. A good setting is nice, and there are certain levels of required quality there, but even with the most complete, perfect setting ever, if that setting gets in the way of a reader (or role-player) moving around in and interacting with the world without obstruction, then it's a detraction rather than a benefit.

Well put.

So well put infact that it should be required reading for all members.

[LostOne]

I don't understand why the reactor issue is such a huge deal. Look up the book The Radioactive Boy Scout. Real world example of how a kid in 1995 built a nuclear reactor using materials purchased from hardware stores, etc.

I'm sure the survivors of Chaos Earth have a few eggheads smarter than this kid, who can do similar miracles and make them safe (the kid irradiated his neighborhood).

It might be that some genius will figure out how to build a cold fusion reactor in his kitchen that runs on water. Maybe that is the safe micro-fusion reactor model used in 2098, and they don't need to worry about finding radioactive fuel. Just fill with water and service and maintain the hardware.

[glitterboy2098]

I don't understand why the reactor issue is such a huge deal.

the reactor debate has been going on for decades, so it tends to turn into a big deal whenever brought up.

it's sort of important to the discussion at hand because how the reactor generates energy (fission, fusion, other) will determain how hard it is to keep fueled and maintained in Chaos earth. a deuterium fusion reactor for example merely needs a supply of water and some electrolosis machinery to keep running (often just a case of hooking up a new tank of fuel to the reactor), while a fission reactor will need uranium, plutonium, thorium, or other harder to obtain fissile material to fuel, and will require the reactor to be removed and partially disassembled to refuel.


the problem is we have mentions of fusion from RUE, but the accumulated evidence from the last decade plus has pointed mostly to fission. so it's a big mess, made worse by the fact we cannot be sure how much the writers understand of the technologies, and wether they understand the differances between the two. (i've known people on other forums who didn't understand that fusion and fission were different, and i've known a few who talked about fusion plants when they meant fission.)

add to this the core of fans who run houserules that change some of the info, and it's total chaos.

It might be that some genius will figure out how to build a cold fusion reactor in his kitchen that runs on water. Maybe that is the safe micro-fusion reactor model used in 2098, and they don't need to worry about finding radioactive fuel. Just fill with water and service and maintain the hardware.

except the Chorme Guardsmen found post-cataclysm are not described as using different reactor types than the RIFTS bots built in PA times. and we know from books like SB4 that the robots and warmachines of most rifts powers generate materials used to make nuclear bombs. which means it can't be fusion, since that only generates helium, which is an inert material. but fission reactors, even non-breeder types, will generate amounts of refined nuclear material that can be turned into atomic bombs.

and in any case, cold-fusion is more complicated than that anyway. the currently operational (and quite promising) approach uses powdered palladium suspended in water, and disolves Hydrogen and tritium into the water, where it reacts and generates heat. the whole system requires regular fueling with hard to get materials.

[Kurseteller]

There may be a way to have a safe, clean fission reaction. What if the late 21st century has a way of turning lighter elements into heavier element and making the radioactive after the process. And these heavier element has a half-life of weeks instead of century. Remember we have already created new elements already, why not more discovered, possibly, by the Super collider in Europe. That would mean that even if there was a containment breach all the rads would be gone in a couple of weeks. And this process might be more powerful,stable, and/or cheaper than fusion power. That might also solve your power plant size reaction. Remember that modern day fisssion engines are nothing more than advances steam boilers.