Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

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Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

Sure, I love both Rifts and Chaos Earth, but do you ever try putting yourself into the place of the characters?

Consider this:

It's Christmas Day in Atlanta, 2098 A.D., and General Sawyer gives the order to abandon the city.

Some 32 hours ago the Yellowstone super-volcano erupted, and the earth is getting colder (North America more quickly than anybody) due to the ash enshrouding the planet.

Atlanta, which is 45 degrees F, drops to 5 to 15 degrees F. But on that 6 day march to Chicago, the windy city area goes from 26 F to -4 to -14 F.

Now, maybe living in Texas has made me sensitive to cold temperatures, but I'm thinking, "General Sawyer, the Earth's temperature is dropping; let's go somewhere warm, as if survival were part of our strategy!"

"Let's avoid the N.E.M.A. offices in Mexico, with some 14 volcanoes going crazy, but Texas is looking very good right now. Maybe there is even a Underground Lone Star facility we can use for our survival, if we even know about it!"

"If not, hey! Look at it this way. No Blue Zones in the area, and the climate is 54 F, dropping to 14 to 24 F."

"But then again, if Ice Fishing on frozen Lake Michigan is your thing, have fun! What's that, General? You want to go to Chicago, so that we can stand under the super-volcano's ash plume via the jet stream? Wonderful! It's obvious what happens when a woman is put in charge!"

Joseph Prosek, where is your leadership when we need it? God help us all.

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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

Jeffrey W. wrote:Sure, I love both Rifts and Chaos Earth, but do you ever try putting yourself into the place of the characters?

Consider this:

It's Christmas Day in Atlanta, 2098 A.D., and General Sawyer gives the order to abandon the city.

Some 32 hours ago the Yellowstone super-volcano erupted, and the earth is getting colder (North America more quickly than anybody) due to the ash enshrouding the planet.

Atlanta, which is 45 degrees F, drops to 5 to 15 degrees F. But on that 6 day march to Chicago, the windy city area goes from 26 F to -4 to -14 F.

Now, maybe living in Texas has made me sensitive to cold temperatures, but I'm thinking, "General Sawyer, the Earth's temperature is dropping; let's go somewhere warm, as if survival were part of our strategy!"

"Let's avoid the N.E.M.A. offices in Mexico, with some 14 volcanoes going crazy, but Texas is looking very good right now. Maybe there is even a Underground Lone Star facility we can use for our survival, if we even know about it!"

"If not, hey! Look at it this way. No Blue Zones in the area, and the climate is 54 F, dropping to 14 to 24 F."

"But then again, if Ice Fishing on frozen Lake Michigan is your thing, have fun! What's that, General? You want to go to Chicago, so that we can stand under the super-volcano's ash plume via the jet stream? Wonderful! It's obvious what happens when a woman is put in charge!"

Joseph Prosek, where is your leadership when we need it? God help us all.

Jeffrey W.
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viewtopic.php?t=30570 :D
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Texas probably figures into alot of gamers fantasies

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

Yes, Dustin Fireblade. Good stuff on that older thread, thanks for pointing it out -- better than the way the Chaos Earth books or Rifts books panned out, but I'm not even going into alternate endings with this thread.

I was refering to the story version printed in the game books thus far.

Remember, no mutant animals from N.E.M.A., and no Lone Star complex use, until discovered by the Coalition scouts in a few centuries.

A previous thread I responded to reminded all of the BRAC base closures that would logically happen. The year 2098 would not have the Defense Department allocating it's resources as in 2005. That would be as absurd as to suggest that our bases today match our forces of WWI!

Think forward, I always say! (Don't get stuck in the present)

The vampire kingdoms take even longer than that to discover Texas.

I'm more curious about how to feed people in a frozen agricultural ash covered wasteland, as opposed to in a warmer climate with some Gulf (seafood & oil) resources.

General Sawyer picked the Midwest as a central rally point for surviving N.E.M.A. forces such as her own, and was probably optimistic about Canadian or Mexican N.E.M.A. forces meeting up with her there.

Her next logical move, if she doesn't look for a better place, would be to dig in, fortify (walled city), and try her best to survive and acclimate to this new world situation.

Personally, I thought she was logical to move out of Atlanta, but took leave of her senses when she chose to winter over in Chicago.

But sincerely, thanks for pointing out alternative endings.
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Unread post by Jason Richards »

1. They didn't know about the Lone Star complex.
2. They went to Chicago because N.E.M.A. had established a foothold there, it was centrally located, and she wanted to consolidate her forces with those already in the Midwest.

Remember that she wasn't in charge of all of N.E.M.A., just the troops based in Atlanta.
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Unread post by TechnoGothic »

You know this gives me a good reason to base a New Faction in Atlanta with GB tech, GB-Samas tech, etc...

They could be the ones who stayed behind and formed a friendship with Native American as they returned...specially the Modernists...

I'm in Florida, was NEMA in Florida too ??
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Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

NEMA was everywhere in the US, Canada and Mexico.
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Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

Jason Richards wrote:1. They didn't know about the Lone Star complex.
2. They went to Chicago because N.E.M.A. had established a foothold there, it was centrally located, and she wanted to consolidate her forces with those already in the Midwest.

Remember that she wasn't in charge of all of N.E.M.A., just the troops based in Atlanta.


I can certainly agree Sawyer did not know of the LSC, but talking about consolidating forces, Texas has a rather large military presence in addition to its NEMA units. Plus there is the chance that Sawyer could have picked up additional NEMA and military forces in the South moving from Atlanta to Dallas. (I know she did moving north, but I think the numbers would have been better in the South.)
I think the factor that really gets me about the story is that Sawyer apparently had access to satellite photo's initially and could see the magic zones that she would have had to go through to get to Chicago. Getting to Texas would have been a easier job in that regards.

To be honest I would have been fine if the story was written in a way that Sawyer was already in Chicago, rather than moving from Atlanta to there.
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Unread post by Sentinel »

Or, the reason could have been the need to be consistant to Kevin Siembedas' Meta-Plot, and keep Lone Star as it is, and move Sawyer and NEMA to Chicago.
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Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

KS is just trying to lay the ground work for the Coalition
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Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

dukeofshadows wrote:KS is just trying to lay the ground work for the Coalition

Pretty much, which is a shame because Chaos Earth would be a very fun alternate dimension. A few questions bother me though:

1) If Georgia survived relatively intact, why is it nothing but ruins by Dinosaur Swamp? There's enough military tech and farmland here to be at least self-sufficient

2) Why did no one even *try* to go to Aberdeen and make contact with the facility and ARCHIE 3? There were people still alive there when all this happened and the facility would have made an ideal base of operations

3) What area does NEMA cover at the start of Chaos Earth, anyway? Just Chicago, the Great Lakes areas, or everything they possibly can?
yeah making a stand in the fallout area doesnt make any sense, but like i said he trying to lay the ground work but i be saying #$%^ the coalition and have NEMA do thier own thing
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Unread post by gaby »

I made Alternate Chaos earth games where the People at Aberdeen and Lone Star did not get killed.

It,s Your game you can put NEMA any where you Want!

I also planing to do a Game where the majorty of people in Fairbank lived trough the Dangerous weather becase of MD Green Houses.
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Unread post by RockJock »

BRAC is a closing of outdated, outmoded, and unneeded military bases as well as a realignment of troops. The current one is I think the 5th? In Texas some of the smaller air national guard postings at airports as well as the coastal anti-mine warfare and some flying posts around Corpis are closing, but that is about it.
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A possible location for N.E.M.A. nobody seems to mention

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

As I'm fond of saying, "think forward".

Area 51, Area 51, Area 51. It's very mention is getting worn out.

Nobody seems to mention an alternate location, even though it plays so prominently in my New West campaign, and it's from the Rifts books.

Here's your clues:

Pre-Rifts construction in a mountain cliffside, with two thirds built below ground level.

Stocked with (N.E.M.A. perhaps?) suits of Glitterboy Power Armor and S.A.M.A.S. Power Armor.

Directions: North America, former American Empire, former state of New Mexico, former county of Sierra, former State Road 152, about 10 miles west of Animas Peak, in the Black Range Mountains.

Give up?

Then read Rifts: World Book 15 Spirit West, pages 196,197,205, and 206.

The only Ley Line is a deep subterranean one, so even this would have been a perfect choice, better than going all the way to Area 51.

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where's all the food?

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

I disagree with dukeofshadows comment that:

"...never mind that *right now* we have the tech to feed lots of people with minimal space. If this many assets survive the Rifts, North America should be back on its feet in a century..."

Other than an abundance of fast food restaurants and obesity in America, where is this technology to replace farming and feed the hungry?

I believe feeding people would have been an incredible challenge during the second Dark Ages following the Cataclysm, requiring hunting skills which pitted Wilderness Scouts and Vagabonds alike against supernatural evils.

Even the Coalition and Free Quebec in 109 P.A. relies heavily upon farming to feed it's masses, and lack the tech to do what dukeofshadows suggests.

Respectfully, I disagree.

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(farm aide)[/quote]
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Protect the Hydroponic Gardens!

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

Although I agree that the Golden Age of Man might certainly have achieved hydroponic gardening like you suggest, in a Chaos Earth mass-devastation setting such as the Apocalypse, I doubt the General Sawyer or any other army on the move would remember to pack a hydroponic garden center, or even an electric toothbrush.

Previous Rifts books had me convinced that the human race had turned to the sea for much of it's food, but that the Cataclysm made much of that food source unavailable. Farming suffered with the volcanic eruptions, and most cities either tore themselves apart, or demons did it for them.

Protect the Hydroponic Gardens! We'll keep them going, even after the human race loses it trade, monetary, legislative, justice, and communications systems (just to name a few).

So, now we can credit General Sawyer with leading humanity into the path of the Super-Volcano, and feeding them "shrooms" or other fungus.

Nope, it's venison for me. Might as well eat 'em for the demons do!

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Unread post by smkeyes »

http://lvo.wr.usgs.gov/images/maps/Cald ... ef_med.GIF

The Long Valley Caldera would also be covering the american SW with volcanic ash.

Take into effect the jet stream and most of texas would be getting a higher ash fall than would the Chicago area. Then also take in account that it is mentioned that the Mississippi River is 100 ft over it's banks. Wich would make crossing the Mississippi River problamatic at the least to near imposible at the worst.

Second While texas has Fort Hood and Fort Bliss located with in it's borders the ammuntion supply would be limited too what was located on those bases at the time. Unfortunitly Corpis Christy Texas and the Army Depot there would be under water. While NEMA units working from Chicago could easily secure Rock Island Arsenal and it's production facsilities for its own use.
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Unread post by Alpha 11 »

Did the General know there was big time layline activity around Chicago when she decided to go there? From what I remember reading, I do not think she know. And has anyone ever thought about how young she is? She is what, 35, and a 3 star general. I would like to know how that happen. I also would like to point out, that the Chicago of 2098 in Chaos Earth could be a lot differnet form what it is today, in that it could have everthing they need, though I do not have any of the latter books in the Chaos series, so I could be wrong about that.
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Unread post by cirwin08 »

I actually have decided to place most of NEMA in Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. All areas are good for growing, large military presence, and mostly devoid of Leylines. They could see the lines from satilites, which they had access to untill a few days after the supervolcano. The ashfall would be bad, nut no worse than Chicago, and a hell of a lot warmer. Texas and Kansas both have production faciities, Boeing being very vey big in Kansas.

Note on ashfall: After talking with a few knowledgeable geologist friends of mine, the Yellowstone Volcano would wipe out most of the North states, and the ash would prolly be more westerly flowing, with heavy fall south, but heavy fall only so far south, not even past south Colorado. There would be a constant trickle of ash, but Pompeii level fall would be concentrated around the park.

A few posts ago, someone mentioned the NW. There are so many volcanoes in that region that ash and lava alone would wipe it out. Throw in cold tempuratures, and coastal problems, and WA, OR, and right down into North Nevada and central CA is byebye.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by gaby »

Have you the New West book?
On page 25,they the Map show where Ley lines are ther strongist,they where 50 too 100 times more Ley lines in Chaos Earth.
Crossing the Mississippi could have been very hard at the time.

It,s your game,You can make a AU where they go to Lone Star or Oklahoma was free of Ley lines.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

NECRO-THREAD!!!!!!

Jeeze, Gaby, you must have dug deep to find this one - it's pushing 5 years old. A bit bored are we?
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Thankfully though this board has no dumb rules about posting to old threads.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by csbioborg »

anyway you call it you have to have her go to chicaga because that is where the CS starts there might be 100 reasons why its not a good idea but Chi town predates Chaos Earth. I still want to know when chi town gets built since it apperantly did not exist during the Chaos Earth period at least as a mega city
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

duh obviously Chaos Earth is a metaphor for Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Total chaos and destruction. inept government departments. the president nowhere in sight. looting, demons, power armor, all that.

what's crazy is that Chaos Earth was printed BEFORE Hurricane Katrina ever happened? What is going on here?
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by csbioborg »

and the Lone Gunmen TV series predicted 9/11 six months before it happened
what's your point
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by keir451 »

She SHOULD have led them to either the Hutchinson Salt Mines in Kansas (EVERYTHING from movies to Gov't paperwork/files is stored there) then there is the Marengo, In. warehouse that has literally TONS upon TONS(upon TONS upon TONS) of MREs set aside for disaster relief. With the supplies from Marengo she could have fed her troops AND the survivors of Chicago for years to come.
As for ARCHIE 3, it was supposedly a "TOP SECRET" facility that only the personnel working on it and (of course) the President and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

csbioborg wrote:and the Lone Gunmen TV series predicted 9/11 six months before it happened
what's your point

i have no point. just hangin out on the internet. :bandit:

I doubt Lindsey Sawyer had the forsight to take her people to a place where they could start over and build a new life and harvest crops and all that. She probably just wanted to get them the hell out of Atlanta and Chicago sounded like the best place at the time.
Chaos Earth is about disaster response, not nation building.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by kevarin »

the reason she didnt go to texas is on page 9 of rise of magic it got nuked

csbioborg wrote:anyway you call it you have to have her go to chicaga because that is where the CS starts there might be 100 reasons why its not a good idea but Chi town predates Chaos Earth. I still want to know when chi town gets built since it apperantly did not exist during the Chaos Earth period at least as a mega city




what says chi-town hasnt been built yet on page 9 of rise of magic it says that nema controlls 14 citys around chicago
i have allways made chi town one of these citys and the nema forces fell back to chi town after the decided chicago
was a lost cause and they couldnt hold it and these nema forces are the begining for the cs
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Xar »

MegaverseTraveller wrote:I always figured that NEMA had taken over and utilized the FEMA organizational model and facilities, along with some military facilities and manufacturing locations.

These are the real FEMA regions and office locations:
Region I, Boston, MA
Region II, New York City, NY
Region III, Philadelphia, PA
Region IV, Atlanta, GA
Region V, Chicago, IL
Region VI, Denton, TX
Region VII, Kansas City, MO
Region VIII, Denver, CO
Region IX, Oakland, CA
Region X, Bothell, WA
Pacific Area Office (PAO), Honolulu, HI (sub-office of Region X).

In my campaign the NEMA national headquarters for member nations are near each nations capital and the international headquarters is in St. Louis (roughly equidistant to all three nation headquarters).

Of note the breakdown in my campaign is:
Region I, II, III, IX, X and POA destroyed by Tsunami.
Region VIII damaged by earthquakes, volcanic effects, and buried in ash from the super volcano.
Region VI and Region VII are sitting in tornado alley and are destroyed by multiple strikes by large tornadoes.
U.S. National HQ (Public) destroyed by Tsunami (secret HQ survives but in hiding).
Mexican National HQ destroyed by volcanic activity.
Canadian National HQ survives, but is unable to provide massive cross border support.
International HQ .... well we all know what happened in St. Louis.


I like this very much. Nice reasoning and work.
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Stormrunner wrote:Everyone seems to be slamming the General while forgetting that the east and west cost were gone. Virtually zero survivors. I believe it was also mentioned that the gulf was similarly hit. Who in their right mind would take troops TOWARDS those areas? Traveling inland seems a logical and smart plan. Also as already mentioned the place that seemed, at least temporarily, the most secure was Chicagago.
Once the situation gets stabilized, which could be months or even years, Then they could begin looking long term.

like i said before it seems to me KS was setting the foundation for the CS, and its seems rushed, moving toward a ash cloud is never an great idea
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Re: Lindsey Sawyer, where are you leading us?

Unread post by plata_knight »

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=eoearth+yellowstone+ash&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS387US387&biw=1024&bih=566&tbm=isch&tbnid=hRvqGe63zZRNIM:&imgrefurl=http://www.eoearth.org/article/What%25E2%2580%2599s_in_Yellowstone%25E2%2580%2599s_Future%3Ftopic%3D49478&docid=pG5zCw3yJoX9EM&w=580&h=377&ei=lCmOTrCuDsGhsQK4nci_AQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=375&vpy=265&dur=3185&hovh=181&hovw=279&tx=144&ty=100&page=1&tbnh=115&tbnw=153&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0

Here is a map of past megavolcano eruptions, including three yellowstone eruptions. I use it as a guide for how deep the
ash is in different parts of rifts earth. The books say everything west of the Mississippi was under 30 to 80 feet so I use those
as my respective depths. Based on that, we can assume an ash coverage similiar to the Lava Creek ash bed. As you can
see from the map, Texas would not have been an option, even if she had wanted to get to the small part that wasn't under
the ash cloud. Add in red everything within 200 miles of the east and south coast, and Chicago doesn't sound so ludicrous.
That part of the Country around the Great Lakes would have been the only real choice left to her if she wanted to be near
cities and industrial infrastructure. Also, Illinois does have some good agricultural land if I'm not mistaken, which even with
a Mini Ice Age, would have still be a viable source of food.

Incidentally, Curiousity on the Discovery Channel says that the ash coverage area would have a 90% mortality rate.
I'm assuming a slightly lower rate than that myself, but still... pretty intense.
The other thing I was reading is that even 5 to 10 cm of ash can set an agricultural area back decades.
Extraordinary things are accomplished by ordinary people.
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