Boomers: Chaos Earth Revisited

[Dustin Fireblade]

I would be interested to see where you go with this. I've been slowly working on a reset of Chaos Earth/Rifts myself, so I might steal some of your idea's.

[Nightmask]

Interesting, enjoying it so far. Nicely thought out and imaginative. Although the SAMAS might be better with a particle beam weapon, as we see in Rifts Japan since they're a pre-Rifts city that's likely what was standard issue or at least an optional weapon.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

I think you're going at this from the wrong angle. The toys don't need to be dispersed. The rules need to be rewritten to better illustrate the focus of the setting. This is a game about survival and rescue and there are no rules for survival and rescue, only for fighting monsters.

[Grell]

The rules need to be rewritten to better illustrate the focus of the setting. This is a game about survival and rescue and there are no rules for survival and rescue, only for fighting monsters.

I agree.

I like the thoughts being put down here and the first post definitely hooked me. I can't wait to see more, WildWalker.

[Kagashi]

I dont see the Air Force being rolled into the Army, even thru the unlikely event drones completely replace manned aircraft. The Air Force Space Command would be running full throttle when man starts building the orbital space stations. Yep. Any US based space fleet would be Air Force running it (or even Space Command becoming its own service...which by the time we would have no kidding ships would be a more likely event). Think Stargate vs Star Trek. At first, you might think a space base force would be patterned after the Navy cause they have ships, but space falls under the jurisdiction of the Air Force and any space based fleet would have Air Force roots. No, I think the Air Force would have an even more active role in the years prior to Chaos Earth than they do now.

Now, dont get me wrong, drones have their advantages over manned aircraft and would totally be utilized, but no DoD general/admiral worth his salt would suddenly hand over the role of air power to the Army as a result of no longer needing pilots in the cockpit; the same as it would be equally ridiculous to place ground forces under the command of an Air Force general. Both services think a very specific way for a reason. To throw one into the other for any reason would severely handicap the capability due to the doctrine studied by each respective service.

[Kagashi]

I dont see the Air Force being rolled into the Army, even thru the unlikely event drones completely replace manned aircraft. The Air Force Space Command would be running full throttle when man starts building the orbital space stations. Yep. Any US based space fleet would be Air Force running it (or even Space Command becoming its own service...which by the time we would have no kidding ships would be a more likely event). Think Stargate vs Star Trek. At first, you might think a space base force would be patterned after the Navy cause they have ships, but space falls under the jurisdiction of the Air Force and any space based fleet would have Air Force roots. No, I think the Air Force would have an even more active role in the years prior to Chaos Earth than they do now.

Now, dont get me wrong, drones have their advantages over manned aircraft and would totally be utilized, but no DoD general/admiral worth his salt would suddenly hand over the role of air power to the Army as a result of no longer needing pilots in the cockpit; the same as it would be equally ridiculous to place ground forces under the command of an Air Force general. Both services think a very specific way for a reason. To throw one into the other for any reason would severely handicap the capability due to the doctrine studied by each respective service.

Hi Kagashi!

I've seen arguments for both but the challenges of space or more like the challenges the Navy faces than anything else. As for the issue with differences in thinking, it really depends on how you are utilizing the Air Force. Strategically speaking a separate Air Force has caused as many problems as it has solved. Drones can right now out perform all but the most advanced air combat systems and drones are getting better. Manned air combat system have reached the limits of their pilots. Technological advancement in some flight systems have already outstripped the physical capabilities of all but the best pilots... and some systems are better than that. That leaves the problem of security (a Terminator scenario or electronic hacking) and that would be solvable or not based on the technology... not the service in charge of it.

Currently, all area above the ground and water is under the domain of the Air Force. Even when a Navy asset takes off from a carrier, if there is Air Force command and control around, it falls under the Air Force (certainly the Navy has been delegated this responsibility on many occasions, especially if the carrier group is autonomous, but this is default). This also includes space. Satellites, missiles, and so on fall under the domain of the Air Force. While the Air Force would be retarded not to console the Navy when the first American space ship is designed (I would even see it directed from the President), the commander of that ship would most likely be a Colonel with Air Force roots rather than a Captain with Navy roots.

My years in DoD acquisition tells me no matter how sophisticated technology gets, you will never take the man out of the loop. For example, despite state of the art avionics and navigation equipment that my 7-year-old can use; EWOs, Navs, and Pilots are still taught how to navigate with a chart, plotter, a simple magnetic compass, and a stopwatch (that would be part of that Navigation skill...not just reading the monitor of a GPS). Why? Crap breaks...and the mission still needs to be finished with or without the cool toys. You dont even need the threat of AI or a terrorist hacking for that to happen. And if you rely on machines to their autonomous modes, you are asking for trouble. The other thing is cost. Drones are way more expensive to not only design, but to maintain than a trained human at the controls. Granted, in 80 years technology (especially the levels we are talking about in the fictional world of the Golden Age of Man) will get better, but I suspect there will be a whole new group of bugs with this technology. That will always remain. This is why I think even in a Chaos Earth setting, you will still have wings of manned aircraft, despite there also being wings of unmanned fighters and bombers. Your points as to the limitations manned aircraft are understood, but they would never completely replace manned aircraft IMHO. IE: "Sir, the super virus rendered all our AI planes worthless! We are defenseless!"

I see a system not all that different than what Chaos Earth already provides. You have no kidding men in the mix of things, as well as drone and skelebots. Both systems, human and AI, augment each other and have positives and negatives between the two. While a post-apocalyptic world may make AI, drones, and other high tech gizmos unusable (due to cost, energy requirements, lack of correct maintenance, etc...), in the world of the Golden Age of Man, I would never see either system completely replacing the other.

I actually see air power as being split based on how it is used. Over water, deep water and space are Navy domains and they have a strong and growing stronger tradition of naval aviation to back this. Over land air superiority, close tactical support and logistical support (heavy lift) is Army.

May be in fiction, but unfortunately, that is not how it is. Of course, you are designing a game based off of fictional things like magic, so you can do what you want to. I'm not trying to shoot down your ideas, just presenting another point of view.

Biggest reason to split it, and to keep it split, is political. 80 years can fix that.

WildWalker

Not quite. Its more than "these are my toys and you cant have em". An Army officer is trained very specifically to conduct war utilizing land based assets...with air being used as a tool to augment and provide a force multiplier for his ground forces. An Air Force officer is trained similarly, but the other way around. He will use his air assets to win the war, and thinks how maritime and land forces can be used to augment his assets.

If faced with having to take a particular town being protected by an enemy mechanized battalion, the Army officer would want Close Air Support to take out the tanks so when his forces move in to hold the town, their heavy guns would be destroyed. The Air Force officer would immediately recognize that the enemy air field 10 miles away might scramble fighters to intercept, thus would direct half of those assets to be equipped with air-to-air munitions. On the other side of the coin, that same Air Force officer would bomb the crap out of the town, and be pretty much useless on HOW to hold the town with ground troops.

The trick is, to understand what it is you know, and what doctrine your brother in the other service follows. That way, when the time comes, you get together and plan accordingly. The Air Force guy knows his stuff about air assets. The Army guy knows his stuff about land assets. The Navy guy knows his stuff about maritime assets. And they all know just enough to know they need to ask the other guy about their aspects should the need arise. This is exactly why there is Joint doctrine recognized between the services; because no one person can become the master of everything, yet all recognize the need to know everything. Id rather have three dudes, all masters of their specific areas, executing policy from a joint commander and reading from the same page, than one guy who "sorta" knows a little from everything trying to conduct the same war.

Then again...we are talking about the Golden Age of Man, where war was a thing of the past, but never really forgotten. Perhaps financial cutbacks or the view that the need for specialization has subsided within the government due to the lower threat of war . Id accept that over "we have drones now so the Air Force is unneeded."

[Dustin Fireblade]

Good question. However keep in mind that there were decades of peace, and then a new "Cold War" and arms race. Based on that I'm thinking the Glitter Boy was designed to be more like a "final word" in MD technology, attempting to force other nations to waste time and resources in a attempt to reach the same level. Remember only a dozen or so nations actually had MD tech, and most of those were friendly to the US (Russia and China being the exceptions)

I would guess nations like Russia and China would take a 'GAW' approach and retrofit many of their combat vehicles with MD plating, and carry MD ammo or light MD weapons to bootstrap their military power, until better designed MD units came on line.

Now, I believe a couple of the "Sovietski" combat vehicles are pre-rifts designed, and they are good ones to. Can't recall if any of the Sovietski borg designs are pre-rifts, but we know this was their focus pre-rifts, so some sort of MD borg infantry wouldn't be out of the question.

The China 2 book has at least one Geofront designed PA that is specifically designed to counter the Glitter Boy, at least according to its fluff. There might be other as well. There are also some enhanced ballistic weapons there that might be pre-rifts too. (sorry can't recall for sure and don't have the book in front of me). If that's the case, then those plus thousands of MD plated retro-fitted tanks could really boost the Chinese military.

Those would, I think, be the likely expected opponents for the Glitter Boys. The GB leapfrogged the US military ahead of everyone else, using quality over quantity.

[Kagashi]

Good question. However keep in mind that there were decades of peace, and then a new "Cold War" and arms race. Based on that I'm thinking the Glitter Boy was designed to be more like a "final word" in MD technology, attempting to force other nations to waste time and resources in a attempt to reach the same level. Remember only a dozen or so nations actually had MD tech, and most of those were friendly to the US (Russia and China being the exceptions)

I would guess nations like Russia and China would take a 'GAW' approach and retrofit many of their combat vehicles with MD plating, and carry MD ammo or light MD weapons to bootstrap their military power, until better designed MD units came on line.

Now, I believe a couple of the "Sovietski" combat vehicles are pre-rifts designed, and they are good ones to. Can't recall if any of the Sovietski borg designs are pre-rifts, but we know this was their focus pre-rifts, so some sort of MD borg infantry wouldn't be out of the question.

The China 2 book has at least one Geofront designed PA that is specifically designed to counter the Glitter Boy, at least according to its fluff. There might be other as well. There are also some enhanced ballistic weapons there that might be pre-rifts too. (sorry can't recall for sure and don't have the book in front of me). If that's the case, then those plus thousands of MD plated retro-fitted tanks could really boost the Chinese military.

Those would, I think, be the likely expected opponents for the Glitter Boys. The GB leapfrogged the US military ahead of everyone else, using quality over quantity.

Black Tiger: Beat me to it. But I can provide the reference. The bot in China 2 is on page 151 in China 2. the Black Tiger power armor. Only half the MDC of a GB and only deals half the damage. But yeah, it was designed to go up against the GB even though it never did.

Pre-Rifts Russian Borgs: Since we know very little of pre-Rifts Russia, we must look at Mutants in Orbit for a glimpse as to their capabilities. But this comes with a caveat. That is, the environment in space would levy different requirements than that of an Earth based population. That and its been 300 years since Pre-Rifts Russia even existed as Laika Station is not exactly "Russia in space" anymore and they have evolved into their own nation. None-the-less, in their population breakdown, 20% of them are equipped with "Bioware" (doesnt say Borgs, so its open to what that means), the highest % population in the orbital communities, suggesting that bionics is important to them. However, their bread and butter is spaceship building, not bionics. They must go to Euro Station to acquire the bionics. Its Euro Station who has the no kidding full conversion Borgs, Juicers, and Crazies. This can be viewed as if Laika Station was no built for borg manufacture, but bionics are still part of their culture and heritage. Combine that with the fact that Borgs have an overwhelming presence among all the warlords in 105 PA, and that view starts to take shape.

Reason for the design of the Glitter Boy: DF said it well. Despite there being no war during the Golden Age of Man, each nation still had an arms race and struggled to keep up with the Jones. I dont think the Glitter Boy was designed to fight anything specifically, but made to show those who designed crazies, juicers, borgs, robotics, nanites, genetic mutations, space craft, MDC armor, MDC hand weapons, and so on, that the KLS corp was one not to be messed with (eventually it was purchased by USA and Japan as well as utilized by the NEMA). Its design benefits were obvious...to unleash mass destruction the the capability to keep on ticking after being engaged to continue to unleash mass destruction. Raw power and military might. Its so destructive, the GBs own support forces are deafened as it unleashes so much violence. British military philosopher Sir John Hackett would have a field day with how much violence this one unit can deal on his own. Whomever sent the Glitter Boys to South America (Rifts Main Book just says it was an empire protecting its border from rebels), didnt have to send Glitter Boys at all since the faction they went up against were rebels/insurgents. They could have very well gone in with standard body armor and MDC laser rifles and still would have been just as effective. But the empire with the GBs were sending a message to the world (persuaded by KLS?). What sucked was when the rebels crossed the border and the Glitter Boys followed them, causing the bordering nation to send its own military to fight the invading Glitter Boys (even though they didnt intend to "invade" the neighboring country). The threat of such a powerful war machine crossing the border caused the responding nation to send its entire army to respond, only to be completely annihilated and cause the Great Cataclysm.

Nations with MDC tech: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=106084&p=2052254&hilit=super+powers#p2052254 Here is a previous (almost 3 years old) discussion on who had what. Here are a few notes as to my potion of the post which I would have changed:

1) South America 2 states many South American nations had factories to make Glitter Boys, but that does not mean that the nation produced said tech. KLS could have owned the factories, but manufactured them in South America to be sold/deployed to the NEMA, Japan, and USA militaries. I suspect Argentina had Glitter Boys in their military (part of the treaty to allow GB production in their country?)

2) The Israeli tech could have been produced by Triax industries and simply sold to Israel, making them an MDC armed nation, but not able to produce it on their own.

3) Its of note that Korea does not mention North or South, suggesting the two countries unified at some point prior to 2098.

[Dustin Fireblade]

To me that means that light MDC armor was relatively common and that MDC capable weapons heavy weapons were as well.

Well that part...not really. CE pg 54 tells us that the very few nations with MD tech did all they could to keep it to themselves and out of the hands of enemy nations and/or terrorists.

The Glitter Boy is total overkill, as seen by what a single squad did in South America. I suppose in that sense it wins "the last war" (fought several generations previously) by making a completely invincible infantry soldier.

At the same time though, nothing else was even close to what the Glitter Boy could do in terms of protection or firepower. The U.S. already had the MD tech to build something that could decisively win "the last war" - but the KLS Corp with the Glitter Boy made them stand head and shoulders above anyone else. KLS probably marketed it as being able to win "the next war" to the U.S. military.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Dustin, I know what "canon" is. I just happen to disagree.

My apologies, I thought we were discussing the canon reasons why the Glitter Boy exists.

[TechnoGothic]

interesting...