How long does the winter last?

[Lantis]

Just curious to see. I didn't find it in the book (maybe it's in Rifts somewhere), but I wondered how long the winter caused by the volcano ash was supposed to last.

[glitterboy2098]

well, in RIFTS Worldbook 17: Warlords of Russia, we find that it lasted 80 years in the russia/northern europe area.

i would argue the dark clouds are gone within 2-3 weeks, but enough ash and dust remained in the atmosphere to generate ice age type conditions for at least 50-80 years. meaning short, cool summers, and long cold winters. and that even in the current time (200 years after the "ice age" ends), rifts earth has climate conditions similar to the 1600's-1700's. (generally cooler and wetter)

[Jeffrey W.]

i would argue the dark clouds are gone within 2-3 weeks, but enough ash and dust remained in the atmosphere to generate ice age type conditions for at least 50-80 years. meaning short, cool summers, and long cold winters. and that even in the current time (200 years after the "ice age" ends), rifts earth has climate conditions similar to the 1600's-1700's. (generally cooler and wetter)

Please do make your argument.

Respectfully, I would be interested to hear why you think that many volcanoes and supervolcanoes would cease to produce dark clouds in only a couple of weeks.

To say it's magic (i.e. the Rifts) would be flimsy, because the Rifts could just as easily pour forth pollutants, pollens, or other things into the atmosphere to cloud it even more, and would hardly produce geologic stabilty to cease earth tremors or volcanic eruptions.

We could also guess that the very presence of so many new alien plants across the Earth demonstrates that plant spores were indeed introduced into the atmosphere via rifts at some point on this newly made-fertile landscape (but d-shifting might have played some part in that also).

Although I haven't tried counting all of them up yet, it seems like the Rifts books published to date include more actively spewing volcanoes than what we presently have in our 21st century, possibly indicating to us that Rifts: Chaos Earth may have endured a seriously long volcanic period, rather than 2-3 weeks.

But if there is something in a gamebook you could point out to us to explain your theory, I would appreciate it.

Jeffrey W.

[Lantis]

With that in mind, how soon could solar powered items be used?

[Supergyro]

i would argue the dark clouds are gone within 2-3 weeks, but enough ash and dust remained in the atmosphere to generate ice age type conditions for at least 50-80 years. meaning short, cool summers, and long cold winters. and that even in the current time (200 years after the "ice age" ends), rifts earth has climate conditions similar to the 1600's-1700's. (generally cooler and wetter)

Please do make your argument.

Respectfully, I would be interested to hear why you think that many volcanoes and supervolcanoes would cease to produce dark clouds in only a couple of weeks.

A gamesmaster would have to make a call, and it's fair to say that 'apocalyptic climatology' is a science in its infancy.

The original post seems to imply that dark clouds would be the result of larger particulate matter which would have a shorter residence time in the atmosphere (I could see that being the case) but that the real problematic pollutants (the gasses and ashes) would stay up for longer. The exact times have to be pulled from the gut (although some reading of things like the 'year without a summer' and the meteorogical impact of the Tunguska event could give a bit of help...)

It seems intutively plausible given the level of understanding of climatology that most players (including myself) have. Possibly a climatologist would have major beef with it.

That being said, I've a bit of a weakness for weather in RPG's. Games don't use meterological events nearly enough so I'm just going to give a shout-out to the folks in this thread because apocalytpic settings are better with apocalyptic weather!!

[Jeffrey W.]

With that in mind, how soon could solar powered items be used?

My guess might not be any more accurate than that of anybody else, but in my games solar cells are rendered nearly useless for many, many years. It would be maddening to keep wiping off the coatings of ash and other particulate accumulation.

I'm away from my books right now, so I am unable to look this up myself, but doesn't a few of the books make mention of how long the lunar colonies and orbital community completely looses sight to the Earth surface for quite some time, leading to depression, etc.?

If it does make such a mention, then perhaps it would reason that the skies are very cloudy all day. Probably not a good night for stargazing if you take my meaning.

As Stephen King did quite well in "The Shining" making a suspenseful setting with snowfall obscuring visibility, gamemasters for Rifts: Chaos Earth can create an equally suspenseful setting with ash and snow ruining visibility, aerial flight, surface travel, radio communications, laser communications, laser targeting or distance finding enert, missile guidance disturbed, and on and on...

Just a thought, and it serves my games well, making them seem different from Rifts.

Jeffrey W.

[Dustin Fireblade]

i would argue the dark clouds are gone within 2-3 weeks, but enough ash and dust remained in the atmosphere to generate ice age type conditions for at least 50-80 years. meaning short, cool summers, and long cold winters. and that even in the current time (200 years after the "ice age" ends), rifts earth has climate conditions similar to the 1600's-1700's. (generally cooler and wetter)

Please do make your argument.

Respectfully, I would be interested to hear why you think that many volcanoes and supervolcanoes would cease to produce dark clouds in only a couple of weeks.

Hurricane and hurricane level winds helping to disperse it quicker maybe?

[Lantis]

Yeah, I've pretty much assumed that it's dark and "smoggy" most of the time, with bouts of wind that blow it away on the surface, though not up above.

[Jeffrey W.]

Hurricane and hurricane level winds helping to disperse it quicker maybe?

I might guess those winds could just make things worse, rather than disperse it. Look at some of the other planets in our system, which have winds of that magnitude. At those locations, the winds only serve to keep the particles from settling on the surface.

Jeffrey W.

[glitterboy2098]

i would argue the dark clouds are gone within 2-3 weeks, but enough ash and dust remained in the atmosphere to generate ice age type conditions for at least 50-80 years. meaning short, cool summers, and long cold winters. and that even in the current time (200 years after the "ice age" ends), rifts earth has climate conditions similar to the 1600's-1700's. (generally cooler and wetter)

Please do make your argument.

Respectfully, I would be interested to hear why you think that many volcanoes and supervolcanoes would cease to produce dark clouds in only a couple of weeks.

basically, it comes down to two things. first is the fact that volcanic ash usually only lasts in the atmosphere for a few weeks. some of the ultrafine particles can stay up for a few months, but these are insufficent in quantity to block sunlight enough to render the ground underneath dark. most climate effects result from other chemicals like sulfur that are released during the eruption. so once the eruption ends, the ash doesn't stick around. (rain and snow actually spead up clearance of ashfall, since water droplets condense around particulates. so the heavy snows and rains of CE would help clean the air of ash)

second, eruptive events like those described in CE (powerful, producing lots of ash, blowing their tops...) are shortlived. Volcanos erupt when the pressure in their magma chambers exceed the amount it can hold. in volcanos with unblocked lava tubes and caldera's, this generates slow, fairly sedate eruptions with minimal ash. the lava comes out at roughly the same rate it comes in. in volcanos with blocked lava tubes and calderas the magma builds up pressure until it either blows through the blockage (which produces big eruptions and lots of ash), or blows through the chamber ("blows its top", where you get not only lots of ash, but lots of pyroclastic projectiles flying around)

since major events are the result of sudden releases of pressure, the volcanic activity can be expected to die down to fairly sedate flows within a few days, a couple of weeks at most. the eruption of so many volcanoes would imply a faster rate of magma flow, but not much else.

so within a few days, most of the Volcanos that "blew" on dec 22nd 2098 would have died back down. and thus stop producing Ash. so within a few weeks, most of the ash around the globe would have fallen. you might still get some ash clouds in the immediate vicinity of active volcanoes, but it would no longer be a world wide issue.

the amount of sulfur and other gases being released (which continues even after "dieing back down") would be the main contributor to the 80 year winter. but the ash would no longer be a problem by about feburary.

[Jeffrey W.]

basically, it comes down to two things. first is the fact that volcanic ash usually only lasts in the atmosphere for a few weeks...
second, eruptive events like those described in CE (powerful, producing lots of ash, blowing their tops...) are shortlived...since major events are the result of sudden releases of pressure, the volcanic activity can be expected to die down to fairly sedate flows within a few days, a couple of weeks at most. the eruption of so many volcanoes would imply a faster rate of magma flow, but not much else...
so within a few days, most of the Volcanos that "blew" on dec 22nd 2098 would have died back down. and thus stop producing Ash. so within a few weeks, most of the ash around the globe would have fallen. you might still get some ash clouds in the immediate vicinity of active volcanoes, but it would no longer be a world wide issue...

Thanks. A lengthy and informative answer indeed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you have described a typical volcanic eruption.

What if the Great Cataclysm was atypical?

For example, the Philippines had an eruption at Mount Pinatubo on June 15, 1991, and continued at a much lower level, with continuous ash eruptions lasting until August 1991, and episodic eruptions continuing for another month. Since 1991, Pinatubo has remained active, with twenty activity events reported in 1992, three in 1993, four in 1994, two in 1995, and one each in 1996 and 2002.

Granted, this was the second largest eruption of the 20th century, but this might just be a tiny taste of what chaos earth might bring, with frequent eruptions following year after year for much of the early decade following the Great Cataclysm.

The Blue Zones and associated storm events were not a one time event. Even Atlantis took a short while to appear, did it not? Why should we expect the volcanic eruptions to be so short in duration or limited in activity?

I would suggest that these events took a great deal of time to resolve themselves, and certainly more than a couple of weeks.

Jeffrey W.
(it's gonna be a long apocalypse folks)

[jedi078]

My opinion as to how long the 'winter' lasts after the great cataclysm: Long enough to make life suck

[glitterboy2098]

basically, it comes down to two things. first is the fact that volcanic ash usually only lasts in the atmosphere for a few weeks...
second, eruptive events like those described in CE (powerful, producing lots of ash, blowing their tops...) are shortlived...since major events are the result of sudden releases of pressure, the volcanic activity can be expected to die down to fairly sedate flows within a few days, a couple of weeks at most. the eruption of so many volcanoes would imply a faster rate of magma flow, but not much else...
so within a few days, most of the Volcanos that "blew" on dec 22nd 2098 would have died back down. and thus stop producing Ash. so within a few weeks, most of the ash around the globe would have fallen. you might still get some ash clouds in the immediate vicinity of active volcanoes, but it would no longer be a world wide issue...

Thanks. A lengthy and informative answer indeed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you have described a typical volcanic eruption.

What if the Great Cataclysm was atypical?

For example, the Philippines had an eruption at Mount Pinatubo on June 15, 1991, and continued at a much lower level, with continuous ash eruptions lasting until August 1991, and episodic eruptions continuing for another month. Since 1991, Pinatubo has remained active, with twenty activity events reported in 1992, three in 1993, four in 1994, two in 1995, and one each in 1996 and 2002.

Granted, this was the second largest eruption of the 20th century, but this might just be a tiny taste of what chaos earth might bring, with frequent eruptions following year after year for much of the early decade following the Great Cataclysm.

The Blue Zones and associated storm events were not a one time event. Even Atlantis took a short while to appear, did it not? Why should we expect the volcanic eruptions to be so short in duration or limited in activity?

I would suggest that these events took a great deal of time to resolve themselves, and certainly more than a couple of weeks.

Jeffrey W.
(it's gonna be a long apocalypse folks)

the problem is that it only takes a couple of months of darkness to see the mass die-off of Phytoplankton, the base of the ocean ecosystem and predominant oxygen producer for our world. once the plankton is gone, earth would have some major problems in regards to atmosphere and ecosystems. since we didn't see a permian level extinction (95% of global specias dead), it's safe to assume such an event didn't happen. even the rifts don't help there. dimensional rifts don't transfer atmospheres, and while they definately introduced new species of plants and animals, the fact that earth is still filled with known animal and plant species indicates that it didn't re-grow from imported types. if it had, earth would be much more diverse, with little "earth" plants and animals left.

the total darkness of the ashfalls thus had to be short lived. but you'd likely still see lots of storms, heavy cloud cover, and such, so you can keep the "sky covered with clouds" through most of that first year...it's just it wouldn't be "dark as night" under them, and you'd see the occasional patch of clear sky.

[Jeffrey W.]

the problem is that it only takes a couple of months of darkness to see the mass die-off of Phytoplankton, the base of the ocean ecosystem and predominant oxygen producer for our world. once the plankton is gone, earth would have some major problems in regards to atmosphere and ecosystems. since we didn't see a permian level extinction (95% of global specias dead), it's safe to assume such an event didn't happen...

Very intelligent and excellent points to consider. You actually inspired me to think about something else which I had neglected to. The undersea volcanic activity and climate change.

Wiki mentions some theories like this already:

"The Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum lasted around 20,000 years, and was superimposed on a 6-million-year period of more gradual global warming, peaking later in the Eocene at the "Eocene climatic optimum"... During these events – of which the PETM was by far the most severe – around 1,500 to 2,000 gigatons of carbon were released into the ocean/atmosphere system over the course of 1,000 years. This rate of carbon addition almost equals the rate at which carbon is being released into the atmosphere today through human activity."

It seems that I was thinking with a near tunnel vision about the darkness cooling effects of the Great Apocalypse, and forgot about the oceanic global warming effects of the undersea volcanoes.

I suppose we could all guess that the 2098 events froze the earth into 80 years of winter, but that the oceans eventually contributed to some type of global event which brought Chaos Earth out of what could have otherwise been a very long ice age.

The 109 P.A. era of Rifts could be the moderate climate for earth, with a very hot greenhouse gas effect awaiting the earth in 300-400 P.A., or some such scenario.

Still, thanks for sharing with us. You did give me more to think about now.

Jeffrey W.

[glitterboy2098]

nope, has to be cooler period even to the PA109 period. write ups in Warlords of russia and RIFTS canada indicate severe winters and heavy snowfall even in the non-arctic circle areas, both of which don't occur in a warmer period. it is fairly likely that RIFTS earth is stuck in a peroid equivilent to the late 1700's early 1800's, which corrosponded with the tail end of the little ice age. odds are release of gases from continued, low activity vulcanism overpowers the effects of sub-oceanic thermal vents.

odds are that RIFTS earth would be back to a late 1800's to mid-1900's climate in a few hundred years after the current time point.