The Colony

Dustin Fireblade · Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:38 pm

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/colony/colony.html

New show coming out next week on the Discovery Channel. Looks like it could be interesting.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:22 pm

that looks totally awsome.

Oberoth · Unread post by **Oberoth** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:37 pm

I agree. Any Chaos Earth, Dead Reign, or Post apoc fans will want to check this out. I have marked it on my calender.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:01 pm

WOW!! thx for the link, this is definately worth it, now allthey need is some one w/ a military background to really add a different dynamic to things!

Dustin Fireblade · Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:53 pm

I actually kinda hope they make a series out of it. This one is in southern California, but I would be interested to see other locations, more diverse people, etc.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:05 pm

Dustin Fireblade wrote:I actually kinda hope they make a series out of it. This one is in southern California, but I would be interested to see other locations, more diverse people, etc.

I agree about the Diverse people. I think it would be cool to have people who were not professional in a season, maybe with a small library to use for reference.

Oberoth · Unread post by **Oberoth** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:21 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:I actually kinda hope they make a series out of it. This one is in southern California, but I would be interested to see other locations, more diverse people, etc.

I agree about the Diverse people. I think it would be cool to have people who were not professional in a season, maybe with a small library to use for reference.

I agree. There are likely to be more average unskilled survivors than skilled people. They should have added one or two average people to see what they could do.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:04 pm

Oberoth wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:I actually kinda hope they make a series out of it. This one is in southern California, but I would be interested to see other locations, more diverse people, etc.

I agree about the Diverse people. I think it would be cool to have people who were not professional in a season, maybe with a small library to use for reference.

I agree. There are likely to be more average unskilled survivors than skilled people. They should have added one or two average people to see what they could do.

I think the majority should be unskilled. heck i would be good if they had a single soldier in thier group. because i can see that.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:51 am

duck-foot wrote:ya i know it looks freakin awesome. it will probibly be preety informative too.

the web page looked like it was some what informative as well.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:04 am

So far this show has promise. It showed the people doing things and i was told the website will cover what they did. So I am excited to read these articles. I like the fact that they are showing the people what they should do and maybe what to be expecting.

Also i can see this having a very useful back setting for chaos earth showing (even if it is controled) a harsh enviroment they would have to survive in.

glitterboy2098 · Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:31 pm

it seems their focusing on the "big project" angle, showing how to preserve all the comforts we're used to.

for the other side, how to simply survive without all those things, i present a find i made. The Steampunk's guide to the Apocalypse. lots of good advice on how to build sanitary facilities, homemade defense, ect. i do warn you, the site i found it on has a major eco-freak bent, so the document has some put-downs against our current society in places...and intentionally tries to avoid the kinds of things this show seems to do.

(here is a version set up for printing as a handy-dandy booklet...)

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:49 am

glitterboy2098 wrote:it seems their focusing on the "big project" angle, showing how to preserve all the comforts we're used to.

for the other side, how to simply survive without all those things, i present a find i made. The Steampunk's guide to the Apocalypse. lots of good advice on how to build sanitary facilities, homemade defense, ect. i do warn you, the site i found it on has a major eco-freak bent, so the document has some put-downs against our current society in places...and intentionally tries to avoid the kinds of things this show seems to do.

(here is a version set up for printing as a handy-dandy booklet...)

I just downloaded the PDF and will read it and get back to you on that, still thanks for sharing with us.

And as to the statement of them worring about creature comforts I agree, in tonights episode they paid for that mistake. When they were raided. I think that they do not have a full grasp of what they would really be facing. I watched with ah as they were willing to recklessly destroy their generator. And having lived off the grid for a year and with only my generator for power I can honestly say that they do not have not felt the sting of going through a weekend without power and thinking you could really be screwed if it could not be brought back on, ever.

I did like the thought of the double alternator for the extra boost for power, that was a cool thought.

Phalanx wrote:My office partner was actually a finalist to be on the show. He's a professional aerospace engineer and former Army special forces. He couldn't take a 10-week leave of absence and still keep his job, though, so he declined.

Is he watching? Does he have commits about how he would have done something different?
If yes share.

Oberoth · Unread post by **Oberoth** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:48 am

Yea, they haven't clued in yet that all their work on those things would have been better spent fortifying their colony. Also I find that they went back to haphazardly using resources without thought to where they were coming from; when they know they are in limited supply. When that handyman shut down the power they all seemed to stop what they were doing, but didn't try finding other ways to do what they wanted. Even the guy constructing the shower could have used a hand saw instead of power tools. And that marine biologist could have used a hack saw instead of the grinder to cut that small tube for her slingshot. At any rate they could have fortified that area of the wall while they were waiting. Poor management all around I figure.

glitterboy2098 · Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:06 pm

cultural blindspot, more likely. we live in a society where for even the highly intellegent people, the idea of not having such common things like electricity, prepackaged food, and so in actually more alien than anything in Scifi. plus we live in a society of reletive safety. so it's likely they just were incapable of imagining the problems to come, much like a fish would have a hard time imagining a desert.

the old BBC/PBS show Connections had a great example of how large the problem would be in it's very first episode. and that was back in 1978, before computer's smaller than rooms and before things like the internet..which for anyone who has watched the show, actually is a perfect example of the three corollaries, particularly the third one...

(i recommend the show to every post-apoc gamer/GM, and suggest a copy of the compainion book as a standard item for all would be survivors....lots of useful stuff in there you could use to rebuild a society..)

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:46 pm

I am willing to go off that thought, I can understand that they are from america and we are the land of plenty and waste. Myself included a fews years ago. But still they have not set up a leadership or even a democrocy which allows them to be organized.

They have no order of priority, I can understand the need for a shower, so i can give that a semi higher priority then some of the other projects. However they have everyone going in so many different directions and some of them are not worth the time needed. everyone in a situation like this is going to have to realize that they need to be productive durning the day light hours. And then in the evening they can do a few of the personal things like making sling shots.

I like the fact that the group has been attack after they had the generator and lights by the large group of attackers. After all once you show the world you have the technology working for you. They will search you out. And the noise and light will more then likely guide them to you. Now some may come in peace and searching for help. But the others are they to take and destroy. But what happens when those who were there in the name of peace and seeking refuge is turned away. They will become hostile. While the supplies and resources are used faster when you have more to feed and care for you do have one thing going for you. Numbers. Numbers will deter those who would use the fear of darkness and your fears of being alone against you find they have nothing but violence.

I will be watching the Connections on youtube, but if you have a better link to watch this series with please share them to.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:05 pm

Having seen the show and being one who has lived off the grid myself, I find their shennanigans amusing. Their biggest problem is that they are running in so many different directions. If the Spec. forces guy WERE on the show there'd be a DEFINITE chain of command, instead of what they have (none).

The steampunk apocalypse guide is really good too! Building a house out of car tires!

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:51 pm

I agree the lack of leadership in thier situation is not helping. I would have like to see what the Spec. force guy would have done differently. But in all honosty it may not make much of a difference. If he does not have thier respect then he is deffinantly not going to have the leadership role. And the last thing you want is to be the tyrant who cannot sleep without keep one eye open in that situation.

So i can understand why the carpender build the shower. It gave the girls something they saw as priority and it alsoo helps with sanitation. Weapons and defence I think should have come at the same level if not higher as the generator. I think they need to start patroling the near by streets. maybe even setting traps in and around thier area. But it would allow them to scanvange things that might be more useful then what they have.

Oberoth · Unread post by **Oberoth** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:33 pm

Well let's face it. If that were a real situation they would all likely be dead. Why? Because of their lack of leadership and the fact that they have no weapons other than blunt and a pocket knife or two. Real outlaws attacking their colony would have guns. They wouldn't just pound on their door and make allot of noise. They would have gone in there and shot them all or worse, raped the women. Probably both. But hey, they can't make it that realistic. If they don't fortify their position and come up with some more effective weapons, plus decide on some leadership their screwed.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:59 am

Still hooked on the show, loved the traders w/ the .50 cal mounted on the truck, tho' my roomate & I looked at it and said if it were us we'd've taken them out for their weapons or at least tried to trade for some guns & ammo.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:06 pm

WildWalker wrote:Remember that this is a reality show and they:
1) Likely choose personalities that would not neccessarily mesh 100%.
2) Generally remix things to make it look the way that is narratively most interesting.
3) Don't really want anyone dead.

The first makes figuring out a leader a little more difficult.

The second means that concensus might exist in reality, and there might actually be a clear leader, but it may have been sellectively edited out to create narrative tension.

The third means that you are not going to see someone with a steel pipe breaking a "raider's" leg or an engineer with a "fishing bow" pin-coushioning someone because this is just a show.

All that being said, I am loving this show and have really learned a ton.

WildWalker

Yeah, i know (sigh) But I see the show and can't help but think "what would I do?" "course that is kinda the point, can't wait until the next episode there's supposed to be an actual throw down that I don't think the directors were expecting.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:05 pm

well i think something that lots of people could find useful durning the lack of power are the garden solor lights. They will not give mass light during the night to travel about but will help with moral for a group of people in a confined area. Especially if there are a handful in use.

The show does have lots of things that make it great, the concepts they are introducing to the massess. And maybe with enough curiosity to stimulate people to educate themselves more so in the event of a disaster they can survive.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:49 pm

WildWalker wrote:
keir451 wrote:Yeah, i know (sigh) But I see the show and can't help but think "what would I do?" "course that is kinda the point, can't wait until the next episode there's supposed to be an actual throw down that I don't think the directors were expecting.

I hear ya.

I have to say that if I was in the scenario with the traders with the "Ma Duce" they would have probably started shooting when they heard my spincter slap shut with a bang.

Seriously, that is as close as I ever really want to get to an MDC weapon pointed at me. That gun could have punched a hole into any point in the compound from where they sat. Scary on so many levels...including the fact that you could tell that some of the people didn't really realize just how powerful that thing is.

Not sure in real life how I'd handle something like that if they were hostile but I know that AFTER tha scenario I'd be digging a "tank trap" so that I could use the dirt to build a dirt bunker with a thick enough berm to stop a .50BMG round so that if they came back hostile I'd at least have a chance.

I don't get why they unloaded the air-compressor because that had the potential to allow them to make a pretty powerful spear launcher of some variety but that is because I'm obsessed with pneumatics. Also, I don't get giving away all of the oranges...scurvy being...bad...but then again I have been thinking about TEOTWAWKI scenarios since high school...

Can't wait till the next episode!

WildWalker

Yeah, I'd be thinking along the same lines. Giving away the oranges? That's easy they're free, they can run up to the orange grove and get more, they're not in any danger of getting scurvy right now, so they can get more at any time. talk about a renewable resource! I can't wait until they get the solar panels up and running. Also the producers are apparently going to give them an escape route a little later on.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:59 am

they could take dirt and rock and pile it up against the walls. It would absorb the rounds of most small arms. and it could slow vehicles with the intentions of running through the wall down if not stop them altogether. I find it amazing how many people feel safe and secure in thier homes when they are easy enough to get into. Think of the windows and how easy it would be for a person to get through them.

What about possessions. They will be one of those things that will cause lots of issues with the standard person. New Orleans had people staying behind because they could not take their stuff. They will try to carry things that will have little use and there for no value. because it had some sentimental value. And it will take the place of something more important.

I think 2/3 of the survivors will die just from stupidity and waiting for a government that will have collasped. I think it would be interesting to see how it would really play out.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:51 pm

duck-foot wrote:during the cold war russia and the us created plans for the nation surviving an apacolypse. im not certain how fesiable they are if they would work or what the us and russia plans on doing in such a situation.

From what little I've been able to glean, the survival plans take the best and brightest and squirrel them away somewhere so they cna come back out after things have settled down and start rebuilding, these places are supposedly designed to be self sufficient for decades, if not longer, and possibly include the potential for population growth as well. O'course thats just what I've gleaned from various sources, not full fledged, detailed info.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:27 am

keir451 wrote:
duck-foot wrote:during the cold war russia and the us created plans for the nation surviving an apacolypse. im not certain how fesiable they are if they would work or what the us and russia plans on doing in such a situation.

From what little I've been able to glean, the survival plans take the best and brightest and squirrel them away somewhere so they cna come back out after things have settled down and start rebuilding, these places are supposedly designed to be self sufficient for decades, if not longer, and possibly include the potential for population growth as well. O'course thats just what I've gleaned from various sources, not full fledged, detailed info.

I have heard this to. They leave most the common people to die. on the janitors and service common folks will get to be part of that with little hope for upgrading their status.

I think the majority of the people in the Industrial world would be in trouble within days. New York city for example, has to have no stop supply trains to keep running. In the 90s it was said in the government survey that if NY city stopped recieving supplies they would be out within 3 days.
Now farm communities would fair better, but they will likly be killed off by violent gangs.

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:59 am

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote:
duck-foot wrote:during the cold war russia and the us created plans for the nation surviving an apacolypse. im not certain how fesiable they are if they would work or what the us and russia plans on doing in such a situation.

From what little I've been able to glean, the survival plans take the best and brightest and squirrel them away somewhere so they cna come back out after things have settled down and start rebuilding, these places are supposedly designed to be self sufficient for decades, if not longer, and possibly include the potential for population growth as well. O'course thats just what I've gleaned from various sources, not full fledged, detailed info.

I have heard this to. They leave most the common people to die. on the janitors and service common folks will get to be part of that with little hope for upgrading their status.

I think the majority of the people in the Industrial world would be in trouble within days. New York city for example, has to have no stop supply trains to keep running. In the 90s it was said in the government survey that if NY city stopped recieving supplies they would be out within 3 days.
Now farm communities would fair better, but they will likly be killed off by violent gangs.

I'm not sure aboutthat, the farming communities down here in texas are pretty well armed, and have a lot more shooting experiance than most urbanites. I think they would probably do pretty well, if theyhad the heart to be cruel and let others just die.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 am

Elthbert wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote:
duck-foot wrote:during the cold war russia and the us created plans for the nation surviving an apacolypse. im not certain how fesiable they are if they would work or what the us and russia plans on doing in such a situation.

From what little I've been able to glean, the survival plans take the best and brightest and squirrel them away somewhere so they cna come back out after things have settled down and start rebuilding, these places are supposedly designed to be self sufficient for decades, if not longer, and possibly include the potential for population growth as well. O'course thats just what I've gleaned from various sources, not full fledged, detailed info.

I have heard this to. They leave most the common people to die. on the janitors and service common folks will get to be part of that with little hope for upgrading their status.

I think the majority of the people in the Industrial world would be in trouble within days. New York city for example, has to have no stop supply trains to keep running. In the 90s it was said in the government survey that if NY city stopped recieving supplies they would be out within 3 days.
Now farm communities would fair better, but they will likly be killed off by violent gangs.

I'm not sure aboutthat, the farming communities down here in texas are pretty well armed, and have a lot more shooting experiance than most urbanites. I think they would probably do pretty well, if theyhad the heart to be cruel and let others just die.

Quite a few of those who live out in the country side are quite sompetent w/ firearms, adn if they banded together they could hold off small raiding parties and the like but a large (100+) group w/ the right kind of gear could give them some trouble.

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:32 pm

keir451 wrote:
Elthbert wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote:
duck-foot wrote:during the cold war russia and the us created plans for the nation surviving an apacolypse. im not certain how fesiable they are if they would work or what the us and russia plans on doing in such a situation.

From what little I've been able to glean, the survival plans take the best and brightest and squirrel them away somewhere so they cna come back out after things have settled down and start rebuilding, these places are supposedly designed to be self sufficient for decades, if not longer, and possibly include the potential for population growth as well. O'course thats just what I've gleaned from various sources, not full fledged, detailed info.

I have heard this to. They leave most the common people to die. on the janitors and service common folks will get to be part of that with little hope for upgrading their status.

I think the majority of the people in the Industrial world would be in trouble within days. New York city for example, has to have no stop supply trains to keep running. In the 90s it was said in the government survey that if NY city stopped recieving supplies they would be out within 3 days.
Now farm communities would fair better, but they will likly be killed off by violent gangs.

I'm not sure aboutthat, the farming communities down here in texas are pretty well armed, and have a lot more shooting experiance than most urbanites. I think they would probably do pretty well, if theyhad the heart to be cruel and let others just die.

Quite a few of those who live out in the country side are quite sompetent w/ firearms, adn if they banded together they could hold off small raiding parties and the like but a large (100+) group w/ the right kind of gear could give them some trouble.

Well that depends how big you think of a small farming community. My parents live out sid of a small town of aboiut 900 people, that town is srrounded by working frams and ranches, I suspect thaere is at least 1 gun for everyone capable of holding onee in the area. Further, they use them, the average joe there hunts deer and Wild Hogs, realistically the immediate area ( Town and close farms and such could probably field 800 or so armed people, who all were reasonabley knowledgeable with a gun.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:41 am

SamtheDagger wrote:"Survivor" in the city. Except no one wins. Big deal.

Less survivor and more actual surviving, the show producers andd the people in it came up w/ some very interesting ways to deal with their problems, I didn't agree w/all of them but they were educational nonetheless and can add quite a bit of "flavor" to a game.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:36 pm

Elthbert wrote:
keir451 wrote:
Elthbert wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote: I have heard this to. They leave most the common people to die. on the janitors and service common folks will get to be part of that with little hope for upgrading their status.

I think the majority of the people in the Industrial world would be in trouble within days. New York city for example, has to have no stop supply trains to keep running. In the 90s it was said in the government survey that if NY city stopped recieving supplies they would be out within 3 days.
Now farm communities would fair better, but they will likly be killed off by violent gangs.

I'm not sure aboutthat, the farming communities down here in texas are pretty well armed, and have a lot more shooting experiance than most urbanites. I think they would probably do pretty well, if theyhad the heart to be cruel and let others just die.

Quite a few of those who live out in the country side are quite sompetent w/ firearms, adn if they banded together they could hold off small raiding parties and the like but a large (100+) group w/ the right kind of gear could give them some trouble.

Well that depends how big you think of a small farming community. My parents live out sid of a small town of aboiut 900 people, that town is srrounded by working frams and ranches, I suspect thaere is at least 1 gun for everyone capable of holding onee in the area. Further, they use them, the average joe there hunts deer and Wild Hogs, realistically the immediate area ( Town and close farms and such could probably field 800 or so armed people, who all were reasonabley knowledgeable with a gun.

The other problem this community is likely to face is that the raiders are not going to give them time to rally their groups. the raiders are going to more than likely have them. Just because you have a gun does not mean anything. How many of them actually go out and practice combat shooting. And target practice is not the same, ask anyone in the military.
As for the farming the community is going to be hard stressed like everyone else for at least the first season as they change their crops out to be more versatile. Most those large farms are going to suffer without the large trucking industry. And the food companies to manufactures their product. And this is assuming the natural disaster did not destroy the community like hurricane or tornados.
Assuming that it was disease (pandemic) like in the colonies scenario was based off. How many of the members of that community are still going to be alive afterwards? And of those survivors how many can rebuild and modify the equipment they need to stay alive with?

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:03 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Elthbert wrote:Well that depends how big you think of a small farming community. My parents live out sid of a small town of aboiut 900 people, that town is srrounded by working frams and ranches, I suspect thaere is at least 1 gun for everyone capable of holding onee in the area. Further, they use them, the average joe there hunts deer and Wild Hogs, realistically the immediate area ( Town and close farms and such could probably field 800 or so armed people, who all were reasonabley knowledgeable with a gun.

The other problem this community is likely to face is that the raiders are not going to give them time to rally their groups. the raiders are going to more than likely have them. Just because you have a gun does not mean anything. How many of them actually go out and practice combat shooting. And target practice is not the same, ask anyone in the military.
As for the farming the community is going to be hard stressed like everyone else for at least the first season as they change their crops out to be more versatile. Most those large farms are going to suffer without the large trucking industry. And the food companies to manufactures their product. And this is assuming the natural disaster did not destroy the community like hurricane or tornados.
Assuming that it was disease (pandemic) like in the colonies scenario was based off. How many of the members of that community are still going to be alive afterwards? And of those survivors how many can rebuild and modify the equipment they need to stay alive with?

Combat shooting, probably not many, stalking hunting and actually killing things, virtually all of them. A lot more than the urbanites who would be making up these raiding groups. Again it depends where you are talking about. I don't think the area of central texas would be that badly effected by the loss of trucking, the agro economies there are already very diverse and many people have extensive gardens etc. Hunting is already a major part of that culture, and so are guns.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:04 am

Elthbert wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Elthbert wrote:Well that depends how big you think of a small farming community. My parents live out sid of a small town of aboiut 900 people, that town is srrounded by working frams and ranches, I suspect thaere is at least 1 gun for everyone capable of holding onee in the area. Further, they use them, the average joe there hunts deer and Wild Hogs, realistically the immediate area ( Town and close farms and such could probably field 800 or so armed people, who all were reasonabley knowledgeable with a gun.

The other problem this community is likely to face is that the raiders are not going to give them time to rally their groups. the raiders are going to more than likely have them. Just because you have a gun does not mean anything. How many of them actually go out and practice combat shooting. And target practice is not the same, ask anyone in the military.
As for the farming the community is going to be hard stressed like everyone else for at least the first season as they change their crops out to be more versatile. Most those large farms are going to suffer without the large trucking industry. And the food companies to manufactures their product. And this is assuming the natural disaster did not destroy the community like hurricane or tornados.
Assuming that it was disease (pandemic) like in the colonies scenario was based off. How many of the members of that community are still going to be alive afterwards? And of those survivors how many can rebuild and modify the equipment they need to stay alive with?

Combat shooting, probably not many, stalking hunting and actually killing things, virtually all of them. A lot more than the urbanites who would be making up these raiding groups. Again it depends where you are talking about. I don't think the area of central texas would be that badly effected by the loss of trucking, the agro economies there are already very diverse and many people have extensive gardens etc. Hunting is already a major part of that culture, and so are guns.

I think you are also forgetting that the idea is that socity in this experment was a pandemic, so how many in this community has survived. What is the shape of those survivors? How many of them have the same training as those in the show? how many of those engineers are alive? and that gasifier they created how many people alive has heard of that before this show in the usa? And i do not care how many animals you shoot, it is proven most people freeze up when they point a gun at another human being. when you pull a gun on a human you pull the trigger do not say; freeze, drop your gun.

And the gangs running around killing and looting are not going to give a person a chance. are those farmers going to fall back and leave their homes to live in a commune? because that is the only way i see them being able to pull the community thing together. but in truthfulness i think most of them would be scared of each other as well as the outsiders.

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:01 am

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Elthbert wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Elthbert wrote:Well that depends how big you think of a small farming community. My parents live out sid of a small town of aboiut 900 people, that town is srrounded by working frams and ranches, I suspect thaere is at least 1 gun for everyone capable of holding onee in the area. Further, they use them, the average joe there hunts deer and Wild Hogs, realistically the immediate area ( Town and close farms and such could probably field 800 or so armed people, who all were reasonabley knowledgeable with a gun.

The other problem this community is likely to face is that the raiders are not going to give them time to rally their groups. the raiders are going to more than likely have them. Just because you have a gun does not mean anything. How many of them actually go out and practice combat shooting. And target practice is not the same, ask anyone in the military.
As for the farming the community is going to be hard stressed like everyone else for at least the first season as they change their crops out to be more versatile. Most those large farms are going to suffer without the large trucking industry. And the food companies to manufactures their product. And this is assuming the natural disaster did not destroy the community like hurricane or tornados.
Assuming that it was disease (pandemic) like in the colonies scenario was based off. How many of the members of that community are still going to be alive afterwards? And of those survivors how many can rebuild and modify the equipment they need to stay alive with?

Combat shooting, probably not many, stalking hunting and actually killing things, virtually all of them. A lot more than the urbanites who would be making up these raiding groups. Again it depends where you are talking about. I don't think the area of central texas would be that badly effected by the loss of trucking, the agro economies there are already very diverse and many people have extensive gardens etc. Hunting is already a major part of that culture, and so are guns.

I think you are also forgetting that the idea is that socity in this experment was a pandemic, so how many in this community has survived. What is the shape of those survivors? How many of them have the same training as those in the show? how many of those engineers are alive? and that gasifier they created how many people alive has heard of that before this show in the usa? And i do not care how many animals you shoot, it is proven most people freeze up when they point a gun at another human being. when you pull a gun on a human you pull the trigger do not say; freeze, drop your gun.

And the gangs running around killing and looting are not going to give a person a chance. are those farmers going to fall back and leave their homes to live in a commune? because that is the only way i see them being able to pull the community thing together. but in truthfulness i think most of them would be scared of each other as well as the outsiders.

Most people do not freeze up and drop there gun when they have to shoot another human being. That is total BS. I have heard that plenty but there is no evidence that that is true. If it was there would have been a lot fewer casualties in every war since the gun became the dominate tool on the battlefield. Further, i think you will find that those that have shot large animals are much more likely to shoot a person than someone who has not. Once killing large mammals is commonplace killing a human is not that much of a leap.

And no that is not a critisim of people who hunt or slaughter animals.

And I wasn't talking about the difficulties there would be survivors of a pandemic, only the specific issue of armed bands overwhelming farming communities.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:32 am

Elthbert wrote:Most people do not freeze up and drop there gun when they have to shoot another human being. That is total BS. I have heard that plenty but there is no evidence that that is true. If it was there would have been a lot fewer casualties in every war since the gun became the dominate tool on the battlefield. Further, i think you will find that those that have shot large animals are much more likely to shoot a person than someone who has not. Once killing large mammals is commonplace killing a human is not that much of a leap.

And no that is not a critisim of people who hunt or slaughter animals.

And I wasn't talking about the difficulties there would be survivors of a pandemic, only the specific issue of armed bands overwhelming farming communities.

they have done studies on the human conditions of the brain. Most people are not wired to kill another human. I am not talking the trained soldiers in a war zone. I am saying the common person is going to hesitate, hunter or not.
its gonna play out something like this freeze mister, get off my property, turn around and go back the other way.
And by the time they finish the rest of that they are being shot by the gang memeber. now once they have been there awhile sure they maybe come shoot first. I know lots of hunters who would hesitate killing another human. but then i have been to texas and you might be right. but the community is going to be shattered there and i am willing to bet that they break and go into self Preservation and there goes the community. but then again this was one of the issues i had with the show.
the group they assemble is not a realistic. engineers, nurse, doctor. ex soldier and martial artist. contractor, handy man. yea every profession which could come up with solutions to all thier problem and scatch build anything they needed. not likely!!!

but then they could come from texas too.

And for the record i did not say they would drop their gun. I siad they would say freeze drop your gun. and then they would be plugged. you hesitate and you die.

jedi078 · Unread post by **jedi078** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:59 pm

Even trained soldiers will hesitate to kill someone. Especially if two soldiers are pointing rifles at each others head. Neither wants to die, so they both back off.

Another proven fact is the closer you are to another human being the harder it is to kill them. It is relatively easy to shoot at a shape (a human) 500 meters away, especially if you are part of a group of people shooting at these shapes because you can always think to yourself that your bullets never hit. But it is much harder to plunge a knife into the body of another person less then a foot away from you.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:03 pm

yes thank you Jedi78 thats what i am say.

Gamer · Unread post by **Gamer** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:17 am

jedi078 wrote:Even trained soldiers will hesitate to kill someone. Especially if two soldiers are pointing rifles at each others head. Neither wants to die, so they both back off.

Another proven fact is the closer you are to another human being the harder it is to kill them. It is relatively easy to shoot at a shape (a human) 500 meters away, especially if you are part of a group of people shooting at these shapes because you can always think to yourself that your bullets never hit. But it is much harder to plunge a knife into the body of another person less then a foot away from you.

So show me all these so called "proven facts", by whom are they proven, where is this proven.
My time and experience in the middle east says its bs.

I don't know what soldiers you might know, but not one I served with in combat ever "hesitated" in the slightest, most needed to be kept reigned in as being too jumpy for the COs liking.
You hesitate and you and/or others with you may die, that is beat into you at basic.
Not one flinched at having to cave in a persons skull with their weapon in close quarters, or break their neck.
You have to identify your target as a innocent or hostile, and that isn't an easy thing to do at 500 m without aid, so that bit is too much bs to me to be anything of a proven fact.

If the soldiers are inexperienced then yes they may hesitate but that's not the norm, especially nowadays.
Non combat experienced people will likely be doing the hesitating and will be the less likely to initiate hostilities by themselves.
There are alot of "urbanites" in Texas and many other states that are experienced and very well armed.
I know alot of them in Houston itself, and have bought quite a few of my weapons and ammo there.
More and more "urbanites" are buying their own "armor" and I don't mean body armor, the number of groups for them online has exploded over the years.

jedi078 · Unread post by **jedi078** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:37 pm

Gamer wrote: So show me all these so called "proven facts", by whom are they proven, where is this proven.

First, you might want to stop acting like tough guy who thinks they know it all by saying you were in the Middle East. It only makes you sound like a fraud who’s trying to get respect. Instead you are making yourself look like an idiot.

Second, read a few books that dwell on the subject of battlefield psychology and fear in general. You might actually learn why so many troops are coming down with PTSD, then again judging by your attitude probably not.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill
By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

The Gift of Fear
By Gavin De Becker

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:32 pm

Most of the killing done oin the hisory of the world was done with knife, sword, and spear, even ranged combat was close enough to see your target quite well. Contrary to popular belief this has not changed that much. The weapon responsable for the mosthuman deaths since 1980 is not the assualt rifle, nor bombs nor pistol, but the machete. Killing people results in psych damage now more than in the past because people are raised to believe that killing another human being is a terrible thing. I suspect you'll find that people raised killing large animals are much less likely to hesitate, and those raised to think killing an enemy in combat is a good and noble thing won't hesitate much at all.
This i true for urbanites as well a s rural folks, but I think the actual experiance of killing animals reduces that hesitation. And yes there is research on that subject.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:59 am

Elthbert wrote:Most of the killing done oin the hisory of the world was done with knife, sword, and spear, even ranged combat was close enough to see your target quite well. Contrary to popular belief this has not changed that much. The weapon responsable for the mosthuman deaths since 1980 is not the assualt rifle, nor bombs nor pistol, but the machete. Killing people results in psych damage now more than in the past because people are raised to believe that killing another human being is a terrible thing. I suspect you'll find that people raised killing large animals are much less likely to hesitate, and those raised to think killing an enemy in combat is a good and noble thing won't hesitate much at all.
This i true for urbanites as well a s rural folks, but I think the actual experiance of killing animals reduces that hesitation. And yes there is research on that subject.

A Machete? where did you find that satistic?

And people have been trained killing has been considered evil and bad since the churched was preaching it.

Jedi gave you two source material that you wanted to show his side and your return was an Opinion of your own thoughts. Until they are put into that situation you will not know who will and who will not hesitate. And I do not care what anyone says till they are proving it.

Dustin Fireblade · Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:27 pm

Here's your chance to sign up for The Colony 2 -

http://www.metalflowersmedia.com/

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:03 pm

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Here's your chance to sign up for The Colony 2 -

http://www.metalflowersmedia.com/

This is so cool, thanks Dustin.

I just applied. I challange everyone else to do it.

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:00 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
Elthbert wrote:Most of the killing done oin the hisory of the world was done with knife, sword, and spear, even ranged combat was close enough to see your target quite well. Contrary to popular belief this has not changed that much. The weapon responsable for the mosthuman deaths since 1980 is not the assualt rifle, nor bombs nor pistol, but the machete. Killing people results in psych damage now more than in the past because people are raised to believe that killing another human being is a terrible thing. I suspect you'll find that people raised killing large animals are much less likely to hesitate, and those raised to think killing an enemy in combat is a good and noble thing won't hesitate much at all.
This i true for urbanites as well a s rural folks, but I think the actual experiance of killing animals reduces that hesitation. And yes there is research on that subject.

A Machete? where did you find that satistic?

And people have been trained killing has been considered evil and bad since the churched was preaching it.

Jedi gave you two source material that you wanted to show his side and your return was an Opinion of your own thoughts. Until they are put into that situation you will not know who will and who will not hesitate. And I do not care what anyone says till they are proving it.

Sorry about the dely in response.
As for the machete. I have seen it referanced in several scholarly articles on small arms control. I will try and find you a hard source. But keep in mind, the Machete was the weapon of choice in Rawanda , Burundi and the Congo the first to had more than a million killed by the machete alne, and the COngo it is in the millions plural! Howmany people do you think have been killed in war in the last 30 years? 6 to 7 million and at least 1/2 of those have been in central africa, where the machete is still the dominant weapon. Anyway I'll find you some referances.

When exactly did people decide killing was bad? THe Christian church in the West traditionally tuaght, like the OT that killing the weak, helpless or innicent was bad, but not that killing the enemy in combat was bad, particularly not killing the enemy of the Faith.

Soon to be Knights fasted and prayed over their arms and armour before thier dubbing, priest blessed weapons and armour. Crusades were called,

Here is an Excerpt from Pope Urban II at Clermont Emphisis mine

Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

This is not an isolated example but a representitive one and it did not stop with the Midieval period, and continued from Protestant Pulpits as well ( look into the 30 years War) but the glorification of just combat is ubiqutious in our Culture, until Vietnam. Only since the late 19th century (and then it was few) have men heard regularly how it will scar them forever to kill another, and amazingly, it is after that time that we start to see such scars.

Certianly the PreChristian cultures of the West had no such feelings about Killing I mean the Romans and Germans killed all the time.
Islam as well has no issue with killing in Combat, and dying in Jihad gaurantees one Paradise.

Now as to Jedi's sources< don't know anything about "the GIft of Fear" But I do know that Lt. Col. Dave Grossman agrees with me regarding the shedding of the blood of animals reduces the hesitance of men to shed one anothers blood.

That said, he also says playing video games do the same thing. i am sure he would argue RPGS do it as well. Frankly despite his support that slaughtering animals makes people more able to reflexively kill other humans , i don't think all that much of his position.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:46 pm

Certain sections of the Bible condone the killing of others, the early Hebrews were commanded by God to invade other territories and slay all that lived there, even the cattle. It is, literally, only within the past couple of centuries (approx. WW 2 and on) that warfare has become condemmed. Before the "Modern Era" wars were fought over nearly everything imaginable, from territory to religion. Warrior cultures abounded on nearly every continent, Japan had the Samurai, China had it's military, etc.
While some people could, conceivably, be scared stiff over something, I highly doubt that a person who is constantly living "on the edge", as it were, would be one of them.
Humans have been killing humans since time immemorial, even today when killing is considered to be illegal as well as immoral it still happens.

Elthbert · Unread post by **Elthbert** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:30 pm

keir451 wrote:Certain sections of the Bible condone the killing of others, the early Hebrews were commanded by God to invade other territories and slay all that lived there, even the cattle. It is, literally, only within the past couple of centuries (approx. WW 2 and on) that warfare has become condemmed. Before the "Modern Era" wars were fought over nearly everything imaginable, from territory to religion. Warrior cultures abounded on nearly every continent, Japan had the Samurai, China had it's military, etc.
While some people could, conceivably, be scared stiff over something, I highly doubt that a person who is constantly living "on the edge", as it were, would be one of them.
Humans have been killing humans since time immemorial, even today when killing is considered to be illegal as well as immoral it still happens.

Exactly! Further in the past killing was doen much closer and more personally, and hesitation was not so much of a problem. I say this because I can't think of a single ancient referance to it.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:49 pm

Not gonna quote anyone on this post.

Ok I did not think of Africa so you are more than likely true on the use of a machete. As for their child soldiers I have both watch the documentaries on them and have had friends and family who served in Africa and talked about how lots of those kids are drugged brained washed and simply tortured to be the little killers that they have become. And they all have issues for it. Basically they are not coping with it in a good way.

Your right in the fact I think kids are desensitize with the video games and they may actually pull the trigger without hesitation because their brain will switch to a video game. However I think when they are done it will take its toll on their psyche. However if it is left to the kids they may grow accustom to this life style and they will have the easiest time in the transition. But how many of the parents in your little community gonna let your young go out and be front line soldier to protect the community? Honestly I do not believe they will be your soldiers and the only one getting to shoot something will do it because they are the last line of defense. Hitler did prove that Kid soldiers were great but even he had to keep them back or risk his country turning on him.

Fair enough on the history of the bible, it is full of hypocrisy and contradictive information which is one of the biggest reason people are leaving the church. But still ministers, priest or whatever church call them talk about the evils of killing. But I do not really want to get into a religious conversation.

But I am speaking on a personal what I have seen experience. I have seen the gang members with their guns and they generally get high before they go shoot up a street. Not saying they did not pull guns out in self defense when shot at. And all of them have that one member who shot first and asked questions later.

Personally I have had three guns aimed at me and I will not lie I was scared each time it would be my last moments of life. Up close and personal. The first time I was twenty one working at a 7-11. He demanded the money, he had a revolver 357 or 45 would have been my guess but he was shaking and I did not think I could do much with the counter between us. Not to mention I was not going to die for minimum wage.

The second time I was able to get out of the situation because he was hesitant and had issues pulling the first time, he had to talk himself up to it by discussing it effect on me giving me enough time to get out of dodge which I did.

The last time, which was in Seattle Washington, this teen went to rob me and a few friends, again hesitated and will never walk without a permanent limp again. Which we ran as soon as he was disarmed.

As for after the end of the world scenario I do not believe Americans will be wanting to shoot first. Because they know it is not a game, they know its not an animal. And to be honest you may have just killed the engineer or doctor who could have brought a great contribution to your community.

As for the raider scenario I believe they organized raider (who I see will be the roving raiders who have a chance) will have intelligence and not just walk in and expose their true intentions. And will strike when the community is weak. I would if it was me leading the raid. Unless your entire community is living within a couple of blocks of each other its gonna be a lot easier to kill off by raiders. Especially if they decide to use the Machete, since there is a good chance no alarm is being set. And your community is gonna be wiped out. Even in Texas! And if you do decide to circle your wagon and huddle up in the local college or school building which could house the community. It would not be hard to take you out if you tried to stop me from taking your goods and resources. Because no matter where you have guards your trying to protect things they would be trying to take.

The attackers have the advantage over the defenders in most cases. Unless they have to take your community alive or intact it is easier for them.

But in this modern United States where we have grown acustom to laws, morals and a common attitude its bad to kill, I believe that the common person will hesitate on pulling that trigger who is not on drugs. Or a trained soldier or experience Law enforcement officer.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:00 am

If I had gone through what those kids in Africa did, I'd have issues too. :nh:

True most preachers today do preach on the evils of killing, but that's today. Several hundred to thousands of years ago that was not the case, but that was a very different time and very different conditions. So no arguments there. :ok:

Glad you're here today, as I'm sure you are too.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:07 pm

keir451 wrote:If I had gone through what those kids in Africa did, I'd have issues too.

True most preachers today do preach on the evils of killing, but that's today. Several hundred to thousands of years ago that was not the case, but that was a very different time and very different conditions. So no arguments there.

Glad you're here today, as I'm sure you are too.

I think anyone having to go through what those kids go through would.

Yes I agree about the day of old being as they were, but todays modern people and i will narrow it down to the USA since this is the country i am from, hear it is a sin, it evil and it wrong. and it is our culture which would have the issue with killing. And i am not even saying the preteens. But I feel that if tomorrow or even the next five year we were hit by a disaster which distroyed government and country borders alike i think our citizen would hesitate. I do not care if they have killed an animal or played a video game. it has been pounded into our heads that it is wrong. the generation after that sure they may go right back to mid evil believes.

I am, thank you.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:28 pm

Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote:If I had gone through what those kids in Africa did, I'd have issues too.

True most preachers today do preach on the evils of killing, but that's today. Several hundred to thousands of years ago that was not the case, but that was a very different time and very different conditions. So no arguments there.

Glad you're here today, as I'm sure you are too.

I think anyone having to go through what those kids go through would.

Yes I agree about the day of old being as they were, but todays modern people and i will narrow it down to the USA since this is the country i am from, hear it is a sin, it evil and it wrong. and it is our culture which would have the issue with killing. And i am not even saying the preteens. But I feel that if tomorrow or even the next five year we were hit by a disaster which distroyed government and country borders alike i think our citizen would hesitate. I do not care if they have killed an animal or played a video game. it has been pounded into our heads that it is wrong. the generation after that sure they may go right back to mid evil believes.

I am, thank you.

I agree, the average citizen from todays era would hesitate, but there are a few "non-average" citizens out there who wouldn't. I include myself among the "non-average" citizens.

Lt Gargoyle · Unread post by **Lt Gargoyle** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:06 pm

keir451 wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
keir451 wrote:If I had gone through what those kids in Africa did, I'd have issues too.

True most preachers today do preach on the evils of killing, but that's today. Several hundred to thousands of years ago that was not the case, but that was a very different time and very different conditions. So no arguments there.

Glad you're here today, as I'm sure you are too.

I think anyone having to go through what those kids go through would.

Yes I agree about the day of old being as they were, but todays modern people and i will narrow it down to the USA since this is the country i am from, hear it is a sin, it evil and it wrong. and it is our culture which would have the issue with killing. And i am not even saying the preteens. But I feel that if tomorrow or even the next five year we were hit by a disaster which distroyed government and country borders alike i think our citizen would hesitate. I do not care if they have killed an animal or played a video game. it has been pounded into our heads that it is wrong. the generation after that sure they may go right back to mid evil believes.

I am, thank you.

I agree, the average citizen from todays era would hesitate, but there are a few "non-average" citizens out there who wouldn't. I include myself among the "non-average" citizens.

Lol, Well I will not doubt you. I myself have trained for the day the disaster strikes. I am ready on a moments notice. :twisted: