Sticks and Stones will break my (minor MDC) bones...

[Noon]

I was throwing around the idea that wood and stones sometimes get embued with a build up of magic energy, and (the rocks) can be used to damage and (wood armour) absorb MD damage from small MDC creatures, like the small dino from the original rifts book (the one with 3D6 MDC). They don't affect anything larger and don't damage or absorb tech MD.

I often think it's a bit twee and unrealistic to just wander into the nearest building and wow, look, a laser and body armour - how lucky! Yeah, as if. At the same time players walking around without any capacity even to deal with the small MDC stuff? Yeah, as if. So it's a bridging idea for facilitating play and seeming like it'd fit within the fiction as is. Anyone else thrown an idea like this around?

[Noon]

I probably have a bit of a fetish for atleast some wildman like self sufficiency, rather than relying on infrastructure to survive. Tying it to the fiction, the nuclear war/rifts came because of infrastructure gone mad. But without the natural MDC weapons/armour, there seems no faciltation of that, unless anyone else has ideas? Perhaps animals that can be tamed and can do and take MDC? I'm talking regular guys, rather than having to rely on the luck of the draw of being psychic or (again) infrastructure in being taught magic.

I've thought of pit traps and drowning the minor MDC monsters (then somehow making armour from them - I might stretch it that slowly the MDC bodies can be cut up with SDC tools, after death). But pit traps seem awkward? Thoughts?

And what about taking the teeth of dead MDC creatures and having them do damage atleast to the 3D6 MDC monsters/raptors? The rifts australia book has some examples of the blade fins of the razor back being used, but you'd need real MDC weapons to kill one of those. There has to be a way of getting MDC weapons without needing them to begin with and without falling back to the idea of infrastructure.

[Jason Richards]

It's very important to note that, in Chaos Earth (and I would argue in many Rifts games as well), running away and avoiding a fight are skills that most people will need to learn immediately, or die quickly. I would go so far as to suggest that in most Chaos Earth games not involving NEMA characters, or characters attached to the military in some way, players should go into it with the expectation that they will likely be rerolling characters on a pretty frequent basis. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that every player should probably have a back-up character on hand, or else the GM should have some NPCs in the party that could be played by a group member should his or her original character get devoured an hour into the session.

There are a lot of games that are about going toe to toe and soaking damage, but Chaos Earth really isn't one of them.

[Jason Richards]

I probably have a bit of a fetish for atleast some wildman like self sufficiency, rather than relying on infrastructure to survive. Tying it to the fiction, the nuclear war/rifts came because of infrastructure gone mad. But without the natural MDC weapons/armour, there seems no faciltation of that, unless anyone else has ideas? Perhaps animals that can be tamed and can do and take MDC? I'm talking regular guys, rather than having to rely on the luck of the draw of being psychic or (again) infrastructure in being taught magic.

I've thought of pit traps and drowning the minor MDC monsters (then somehow making armour from them - I might stretch it that slowly the MDC bodies can be cut up with SDC tools, after death). But pit traps seem awkward? Thoughts?

And what about taking the teeth of dead MDC creatures and having them do damage atleast to the 3D6 MDC monsters/raptors? The rifts australia book has some examples of the blade fins of the razor back being used, but you'd need real MDC weapons to kill one of those. There has to be a way of getting MDC weapons without needing them to begin with and without falling back to the idea of infrastructure.

The fangs/claws of mundane, but Mega-Damage creatures are Mega-Damage structures; basically they're as strong and sharp as a piece of robot armor or a rail gun round. They do not, however, deal Mega-Damage when wielded by a normal human. Think of it like having two pipes: one made of SDC steel and one made of MDC steel. If you crack your buddy over the head with each, they both still do SDC damage because you're not capable of striking with MD-level force. If the MDC pipe dealt even a single point of Mega-Damage, your buddy's head would explode like a rotten cantaloupe at the slightest tap.

Now if it were a Supernatural Creature, like a demon, then MAYBE you have something that could deal MDC due to its magical properties. That's assuming that a tooth of a demon is still endowed with magical properties once it's not attached to the demon, and if it is still magical once that creature's PPE is no longer coursing through it.

I don't see any real reason that normal objects like rocks and trees would become MD structures, even if they did soak up ambient magical energies.

[Noon]

I'm not sure about 'running away' - I really don't think it works with preditor animals - they just keep chasing you. And running away doesn't grow crops or find food for yourself, either.

In terms of normal objects absorbing MD - well, I've always looked at the random supernatural creatures and they had vulnerabilities like normal fire or wood. With wood, I'd assume they'd have more trouble getting through that (maybe you guys wouldn't).

And it bugs me that a 3D6 MDC raptor is actually more scary than the random roll supernatural creatures, because it has no listed vulnerabilities to mundane things. Also I think they'd be encountered alot more than supernatural creatures. That's why I'm essentially giving the 3D6 raptor a vulnerability to (semi) mundane stuff.

To be honest, maybe certain items just "get juiced".

Speaking of, in the rifts australia book the song juicer finds and collects magic energy that has built up in common objects!

[Jason Richards]

I'm not sure about 'running away' - I really don't think it works with preditor animals - they just keep chasing you.

The point is that usually, for your average survivor (who only survived by dumb luck in the first place), the decision NOT to fight is usually the right one. If it's forced upon the characters, they're probably done for.

And running away doesn't grow crops or find food for yourself, either.

You can cut that first part out entirely. Some 95% of the Golden Age populace couldn't grow mold on a month-old slab of cheese. For the average survivor, farming just isn't an option. Neither is ranching, hunting, or even scavenging for wild edibles. Scavenging for food supplies in the local market is something else entirely, and there is where you start to get into Chaos Earth gaming. More on that in a second.

I've always looked at the random supernatural creatures and they had vulnerabilities like normal fire or wood. With wood, I'd assume they'd have more trouble getting through that (maybe you guys wouldn't).

Here's the thing, though: there is no such skill as Lore: Demons & Monsters for survivors in the first days of the Great Cataclysm. Even if some monsters or creatures have vulnerabilities to relatively mundane objects (most don't), then it's blind luck at figuring out what that vulnerability might be. Combine that with the endless numbers of monsters, creatures, D-Bees, and demons, and survivors are doing themselves no favors by trying to figure out the "weak spot" of every nasty thing they encounter.

I realize that, for most people, after the Coming of the Rifts, it would be hide, run or die…with a lot of “can’t run fast enough”, so…die.

What I’m wondering, though, is how you could turn that into an engaging game if you do not want to play a “victim” type character…particularly since just about everything coming through a “rift” is not only tougher but faster, stronger, meaner and more aggressive than unaugmented humans.

Obviously you could just leave the supernatural elements in the background and just play the survivors and their issues (nuclear winter, bandits, scavenging, etc.) but that kind of defeats the fun of playing Rifts and Chaos Earth, doesn’t it?

I'm curious how anyone could survive a raptor attack if they didn't have SOMETHING to protect them...armor and weapons.

Excellent questions.

For "ordinary people" type classes, rather than NEMA types, I think the game happens in a few phases. Survival is the absolute key, and the only ultimate goal for your Average Joe. You need to get into the head of the Golden Age character that you're playing, and think about what survival means. You have no survival skills. You probably can't even cook in any sense that would be recognizable by your grandmother. You can't fight. You have no weapons or equipment. You were, for the most part, entirely dependent upon modern conveniences for everything in your life.

With that in mind, I think the first stage of surviving as a character in Chaos Earth is what Noon alluded to in part of his post; you have to satisfy your immediate needs. As the world's burning and rumbling calms down to a dull roar, there is calm enough to realize that you need to eat. You need fresh water. You need shelter from the storms and the ash and the wandering monsters. Scavenging becomes your immediate life.

Well, guess what? It's everyone else's life as well! All of a sudden, that next supply truck isn't coming to restock the shelves at the local supermarket. Your favorite Chinese place doesn't deliver. You turn the handle on the faucet and water doesn't even start flowing. Batteries. Gasoline. Secure buildings with locks on the doors. Guns (even though most don't know how to really operate one). Whatever supplies and resources are out there are all that there will ever be, and EVERYONE is trying to take whatever they can. There's a major component of your game of "Average Joe" type characters, right there. You have to find the supplies you need by taking them, joining up with other survivors, and inevitably fighting off others looking to take what they need.

Think about it. Two weeks into the Cataclysm, your gaming group manages to evade predators and bandits and finds a family hiding in the basement of an old Post Office. The man, his wife, and two young girls invite you in out of a particularly nasty storm and say that you can stay. They've managed to scrounge a bunch of snacks from an old mini-mart, and have a 55 gallon drum full of potable water siphoned off from wherever they can get it. You and your party have some supplies as well, including some candles and a portable radio, and you even managed to find a revolver with a box of cartridges along the way.

How does your character proceed? Do you go to sleep and rest comfortably? You sure have a lot of things that this family could use, and with an extra four of you their supplies won't last long. Oh, and you and your friends? You're edible. What if they kill you in your sleep? You've seen some crazy stuff already. What if they're magic-users? Monsters in disguise? Dark cultists? Even if they're totally trustworthy, what about you? You could sure use that food and water, and this secure basement to hide out for a while. Who's to say what the right thing to do is in this situation? That's some pretty intense role-playing.

Once your characters have resolved that situation (let's assume everyone was on the up and up, and nobody ate each other), and you have met your immediate survival needs, that's when another stage of this drama unfolds. Now what?

As Golden Agers, you've basically been kept people for your entire lives. The one thing you probably are sure of, is that help is out there, somewhere. The police, the military, the government, NEMA, are all out there fighting and looking for survivors to save. The next crucial stage of survival for most is going to be trying to find what's left of civilization. You can hang tight and continue your search for food and supplies around town, in hopes that you're discovered. But, eventually, chances are you'll have to move. A fire starts in the Post Office, or a band of demons sniffs you out, or a mob comes by to loot and finds you there. However it happens, you almost have the typical RPG adventure: the quest. Here is your party of mixed-up, eccentric adventurers, seeking out the thing they need across the wilderness, where untold dangers await. You probably have a good idea of where you're headed, be it the police station a mile away, or the National Guard armory, or even the water tower on the hill from which to survey the land. What's between you and your objective? It won't be pretty.

On to monsters and such. For one, let's not forget that there are plenty of things out there that can kill you, but are SDC critters. They shouldn't be overlooked in the adventuring in Chaos Earth, and a good GM should probably try to throw you those levels of threat rather than opening up Creatures of Chaos and deciding which Day Demon needs to be stalking you. When those magical or monstrous threats do show themselves, however, it's on the characters to try to stay out of sight, or else to cheese it.

When encounters come up with things that are more than the group can handle, keep in mind that most monsters and animals, even the MDC ones, aren't really intelligent. They can be tricked, diverted, distracted, and just plain outsmarted. Even a party lucky enough to have laser rifle with a few clips would probably do well to make every shot count by doing whatever possible to ensnare, trap, or ambush rather than wasting ammunition on going toe-to-toe.

Eventually, a party should probably be lucky enough to meet with some pocket of resistance. NEMA, the military, and other powerful humans ARE out there looking for the characters! When they are found, it's on to a third stage of the game. It's time to get in the fight. Depending on what form "civilization" comes in, be it a whole NEMA company or a few mages hiding in a Blue Zone or just a local police force barricaded in an old football stadium, your character who was the town barber or a schoolteacher or a lawyer in the Golden Age will likely not be of use to anyone. The newly-rescued survivors who are able will be given a gun, equipment, and training, and then probably turn around and go look for other survivors, or go on monster hunting raids, or go on long range recon to find other pockets of survivors. O.C.C. change, anyone?

That went on longer than I intended, but does that offer any insight to my Chaos Earth brain? Maybe I'll put this up on the website. It's a good set of questions.

[Noon]

A few things I don't agree with - hunting, in terms of rats and dogs, isn't ruled out. I was even watching a documentry awhile ago where in africa they hunted down and caught a bush rat to eat (keep in mind those rats actually look quite clean and neat - I get that 'city rats' (hur hur) aren't as clean, but there may be ways around that). And cooking like your grandma? Who needs puff pastry? Boil it all! Also, birds! I think the number of them might even increase, given the scavenging they'd do. It's not that hard to set up a trap for one. And given it takes longer to die from starvation, you might be able to use them and other found foods to live indefinately - in a fairly desperate hungry state, I'll grant.

That said, lighting fires? Making fires with sticks is...well beyond me, IRL, anyway. I even wonder about finding lighters while looting convenience stores - would people even smoke anymore? Blowtorches from hardware stores or using a grinder to make sparks on paper are viable. And it is possible to nurse embers if you care for them, for a long time. And prolly things have been on fire anyway - might be able to dig out some embers anyway, from somewhere.

In terms of "the quest" - ech! If were playing in a "whats the right thing to do" way, I find the idea of a quest kind of crud because at any point my character might decide that quest isn't the right thing to do. But most gamers kind of slip into 'do the quest and if you stop doing it, your a bad gamer' mode. No quests - just a world with places and you (your PC) there, with choices to make at every moment.

and a good GM should probably try to throw you those levels of threat rather than opening up Creatures of Chaos

And I don't like this. I don't mind the players starting in relative safety. But putting on the kids gloves as to what might be encountered? I don't think this is really engaging the danger involved. I feel I'm already putting on kid gloves in saying it'd be raptors you'd encounter, rather than worse things.

If were going to bend the world, I think it should atleast be in terms of ways players can hide, or run back to trapped safe points (traps slowing or stopping monster pursuit). I think making the raptors vanish for the most part is dodging the issue and just giving the appearance of drama. To faciliate gameplay, probably some drama would have to be removed - but this seems just too much removed?

Also in terms of finding some powerful group - again this seems to hit the quest mold, as in you just work for them and if you don't, no more gear for you if theres no indipendent option to turn to. If you decide they're bogus/working for them isn't the right thing to do, then find the GM was holding back on the raptors and will lay in in full if you leave, it's just applying force to the players to choose as the GM wants them to choose.

[Jason Richards]

Just on my phone here, so a couple of quick points. I'll get more into it later.

I'm not suggesting that GMs should play with kid gloves when it comes to monsters. I'm suggesting that MDC creatures are over-represented in Rfts (and Chaos Earth, by extension). A GM shouldn't just throw demon after demon at players, because there are other things. Your NEMA group probably isn't going to enjoy being pitted against an SDC monster, so they get ignored in the name of gameplay.

As to looking for self-assured survival, dont't worry, that's an option as well. I was just speaking to what the normal survivor is likely to do, and that is look for help. Lots of characters won't have help available, period. It will be a challenge, though. Those most likely to survive will be those "weirdos" of the Golden Age that still liked camping, or kept a garden, or even were those militia nutjob types that built a shelter in their basement (hint hint).

All things are possible. I guess it's just my contention that the answer to the danger of Chaos Earth, and the unpreparedness of its people, isn't turning rocks into MD weapons, or making MDC monsters vulnerable to mundane substances.

[Jason Richards]

Another thought regarding your statement about carving out a life of the wilderness without some existing power. That creates an interesting conundrum.

Remember that MDC structures are everywhere, so from that side it's not a huge task. Pretty much any building will have MD a frame. Large concrete buildings will have at least some MD concrete walls, as a rule. Government buildings are likely to have substantial MD structural components.

To be viable long-term, I think you're looking at one of a couple of scenarios. The first is stealth/deception. Think about Robin Hood's camp in Prince of Thieves, hidden away with its location kept secret.

The other and more RPGish way would be more the setup of a fort, a defended position. This is going to involve some sort of MD weaponry at some point. There are options for this out there, to be sure. Police forces have some access, depending on the city (limited to Special Weapons units). National Guard and Reserve units have dual-weilding MD/SD weapons. Then there is NEMA and the Military, of course.

I have a book in mind for down the road that will deal specifically with humans out on their own. Eventually weapons and technology will filter down through the ranks, but for now most of it is in the hands of the powers that be.

[Noon]

All things are possible. I guess it's just my contention that the answer to the danger of Chaos Earth, and the unpreparedness of its people, isn't turning rocks into MD weapons, or making MDC monsters vulnerable to mundane substances.

But equally you have the PC's scavenging around, finding some food, until either you as GM decides someone rescues them, or you decide they have found someone who rescues them. I'll totally grant you'll have those moral conundrums during that time for some gameplay - but as to rescuing yourself, your still sticking with the model of "As GM, this goes on for as long as I want it to".

Are there any other options but sticking with it as long as the GM wants to dole it out? My idea of fairly rare PPE embued rocks and wood, gives players an option to try and rescue themselves, to some extent. I guess one could have some sort of "clues to a stash" points, where once you get a certain number of points you've finally found a stash of tech gear somewhere. I specifically mean points, because we all know the GM hinting that your getting closer to finding something is exactly the same as "As GM, this goes on for as long as I want it to".

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not particularly fond of "Goes on for as long as the GM wants" and like the players to have some control over this pacing. That doesn't mean all products have to have that, but it is what I like and obviously I like to talk in terms of what I like. But I'm not trying to insist theres some rule saying all products have to have that.

or making MDC monsters vulnerable to mundane substances.

As I said, supernatural creatures (the ones you could roll up in the original rifts book) had weaknesses to mundane substances. A mundane MDC creature has none? It just seems the wrong way around.

Also, you need to deliver some sort of pain to a creature otherwise it wont run away. And will eventually learn it can attack you at no risk. What you might have been able to run from before you are far less likely to be able to it realises it doesn't need to be hesitant around you and can just charge. Even if you can't damage them but can make them hurt like heck, that might be viable. Electric generator and two exposed wires on a rod?

[keir451]

I'm not sure about 'running away' - I really don't think it works with preditor animals - they just keep chasing you. And running away doesn't grow crops or find food for yourself, either.
'sounding like Tommy Chong' Hydroponics, man it's all homegrown!
In terms of normal objects absorbing MD - well, I've always looked at the random supernatural creatures and they had vulnerabilities like normal fire or wood. With wood, I'd assume they'd have more trouble getting through that (maybe you guys wouldn't).

And it bugs me that a 3D6 MDC raptor is actually more scary than the random roll supernatural creatures, because it has no listed vulnerabilities to mundane things. Also I think they'd be encountered alot more than supernatural creatures. That's why I'm essentially giving the 3D6 raptor a vulnerability to (semi) mundane stuff.

To be honest, maybe certain items just "get juiced".

Speaking of, in the rifts australia book the song juicer finds and collects magic energy that has built up in common objects!

[Noon]

Well, it's nice being quoted in whole, lol!


In other news, I was looking up the SDC ratings of objects in the OB - a car door has an SDC of 350 or so! Round it up to 400 and you have this awesome post apocalypse style shield to strap to your arm!!! (once you work some straps through it!). Though a grill door (I guess a security door) has more SDC, but a car door has such a great image to it, hanging off someones arm (and reminds me of the comp game army of two, where you tear off car doors every so often to use as a shield).