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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:09 pm
  

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This is more of a game ethics question then a GM inquiry. I wasn’t sure what forum on which to post this.

So I’ve been playing about five sessions of a game as a Necromancer. I don’t think it’s a secret the Necromancers aren’t exactly tanks. So I’m having a few issues with the GM.

1. Stonewalling - whenever I make an inquiry in game he tells me it’s “not my turn” or “I can’t play your character for you”, or something else to that effect.

2. Targeting my character more than the others. Seriously, last session my character got hit more than the other four PCs combined. Please note that I’m not a Leroy Jenkins type player. I try to stay out of the way, attack from a distance or use my undead to take hits for me. Yet Ive been incapacitated more times then I can count and when dose hit me he claims the roll to see who he attacked was “random.” I don’t like to call anyone a liar but I want to see those rolls.

3. I came into the game a few sessions after the other players and they had earned some equipment before I started playing that gives them an advantage. Now I’m not complaining about that, but several times I was reminded by the GM about how I don’t have weapons as good as theirs and laughed it off. I said “Well, you gave them those weapons and you didn’t seem to give equipment out during adventures.” His only response was “Aaanyway, moving on...” Oh, by the way, in five sessions I’ve got one spell book with four spells. Not that it was bad, but that’s been it. And in no way was I given opportunity to shop for new gear during a session and told we’d do that “later.”

4. Keep in mind I play this dude as a typical Necromancer. You know, summon undead, death magic and such. As I said, I’m not a tank. I don’t think this dude understands the class. He even went so far to say my character wasn’t diverse enough. Plus he ignored the background I gave him and tried to rewrite my character’s history. When I told him that my character wasn’t what he thought, he commented that he wasted his time coming up with a backstory. Well, I guess he did, but I never asked or needed ( or wanted) him to do that.

I guess my issue is that I feel this GM is a little toxic. I’ve been role playing for 30+ years and I’ve seen players who are disruptive during a game. I don’t like that, but I’m about to become “that guy.”

Please advise.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:35 pm
  

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Comment: They/Them
You might consider showing the GM this thread in hopes they comment. People only act differently in front of an audience for so long, and if there's toxic behavior then having a record of it can be useful, if for nothing else than to warn off other potential players.

I'm strongly opposed to GMs that try to exploit the role for creepy power games. If there's some sort of hazing period nonsense for a new player that can qualify. A way to test if this GM is on a power trip might be to mention how in most games you've played randomization rolls are made in public, not as an accusation of a GM manipulating results, but just because it fosters a sense of excitement among the players. If possible discuss this with the other players beforehand.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:01 am
  

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My advice is to talk with the GM. It could be a simple as he doesn't know how to GM for that OCC. I flat out do not allow Necromancers because they don't fit the games I like to run. This has turned off a few players over the years but what I'm afraid of is causing the kind of problem you are posting about.

If there are players in the group that have played with this GM more than you have I would suggest you ask them if they notice what you are talking about.

Either way I always advise talking to people about problems or just leaving the group.

Edited due to copy paste error.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:06 am
  

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First thought :
- Continue talking to the G.M., but do it outside of playtime. No player or G.M. wants to hold up a session.
- Secondly, if you enjoy the group, but the relationship with the G.M. does not improve, switch characters.

As far as your direct points:
1) Palladium has a strict initiative order in combat. Waiting for your turn should not be a problem. As far as "stonewalling" you have watched other players and the G.M. gives them free information when it is specifically not their turn? Do they have spevial abilities like ESP, Sixth Sense, Motion Sensors, etc?

2) Obivous spellcasters are frequently targeted first by Players.GMs having NPCs do the same is not unusual. If you really think the GM is out to kill you they would have likely done it already.

3) Yes being low on equipment and spells is hard. My first Palladium system character was a Rifts Shifter. The G.M. controls the world, if spells/spellbooks are much rarer than magic weapons or armor so be it. On the other hand, if the G.M. doesn't have experience with caster-types in the group in can be frusterating. What O.C.Cs are the other players using?

4) As far as backstory, hard to tell if the G.M. or you is being unreasonable without specifics. I once joined a group and after 2 hours making the character with the G.M.. First session I was informed that instead of a human from a big city that worked as a con-man with psi powers. At the start of my first session the G.M. handed me a highly modified character: a half-elf trained in a monestery to fight an evil cult. The G.M. had completely changed the character concept as well as several skills and other specifics. Strange since they had worked with me making the first version.

That was just the start. The G.M. was constantly forgeting/ignoring my attempts to develop the character. It was not that the G.M. was bad, but her roomate was the star of the group and ran two characters so the G.M. was overloaded with their requests. I started to email the GM to have a record, but nothing changed. Talking to other players, none of them were having that issue. I finally asked the G.M. to meet out of session, showing them some emails they had ignored. They apologized about being too busy and asked if I wanted to roll a new character or modify my current one. I hadn't asked for a new character and that certainly wouldn't fix the G.M. issues, so I decided to retire from the group instead. My own roomate kept playing with said G.M. and enjoyed it.

Despite the G.M. not treating all players equally, the game sessions were fun. So are you having fun? If yes, keep it up. If no, talk to the players and G.M.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:18 pm
  

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Curbludgeon wrote:
You might consider showing the GM this thread in hopes they comment. People only act differently in front of an audience for so long, and if there's toxic behavior then having a record of it can be useful, if for nothing else than to warn off other potential players.

I'm strongly opposed to GMs that try to exploit the role for creepy power games. If there's some sort of hazing period nonsense for a new player that can qualify. A way to test if this GM is on a power trip might be to mention how in most games you've played randomization rolls are made in public, not as an accusation of a GM manipulating results, but just because it fosters a sense of excitement among the players. If possible discuss this with the other players beforehand.


Thanks for the input. I'm not sure he would read this this thread. I don't think he's even on this board.

And yes, I think it is a power game to him.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:24 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
My advice is to talk with the GM. It could be a simple as he doesn't know how to GM for that OCC. I flat out do not allow Necromancers because they don't fit the games I like to run. This has turned off a few players over the years but what I'm afraid of is causing the kind of problem you are posting about.

If there are players in the group that have played with this GM more than you have I would suggest you ask them if they notice what you are talking about.

Either way I always advise talking to people about problems or just leaving the group.

Edited due to copy paste error.


Thanks for the input.

The issue is he allowed a Necromancer. If didn't want it he should have told me know. I'd have understood that.

I have talked to my buddy, but has been friends the GM for a while. I think he gets what I'm saying, but he's trying to stay neutral. As I stated earlier, the GM isn't doing this to the other players.

So the players in this game are as follows:

- Me
- My buddy
- My buddies daughter (Age 9)
- My buddies other daughter (Age 11)
- The GM's Wife

So I don't have alot of other players I can talk to.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:42 pm
  

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foilfodder wrote:
First thought :
- Continue talking to the G.M., but do it outside of playtime. No player or G.M. wants to hold up a session.
- Secondly, if you enjoy the group, but the relationship with the G.M. does not improve, switch characters.

As far as your direct points:
1) Palladium has a strict initiative order in combat. Waiting for your turn should not be a problem. As far as "stonewalling" you have watched other players and the G.M. gives them free information when it is specifically not their turn? Do they have spevial abilities like ESP, Sixth Sense, Motion Sensors, etc?

2) Obivous spellcasters are frequently targeted first by Players.GMs having NPCs do the same is not unusual. If you really think the GM is out to kill you they would have likely done it already.

3) Yes being low on equipment and spells is hard. My first Palladium system character was a Rifts Shifter. The G.M. controls the world, if spells/spellbooks are much rarer than magic weapons or armor so be it. On the other hand, if the G.M. doesn't have experience with caster-types in the group in can be frusterating. What O.C.Cs are the other players using?

4) As far as backstory, hard to tell if the G.M. or you is being unreasonable without specifics. I once joined a group and after 2 hours making the character with the G.M.. First session I was informed that instead of a human from a big city that worked as a con-man with psi powers. At the start of my first session the G.M. handed me a highly modified character: a half-elf trained in a monestery to fight an evil cult. The G.M. had completely changed the character concept as well as several skills and other specifics. Strange since they had worked with me making the first version.

That was just the start. The G.M. was constantly forgeting/ignoring my attempts to develop the character. It was not that the G.M. was bad, but her roomate was the star of the group and ran two characters so the G.M. was overloaded with their requests. I started to email the GM to have a record, but nothing changed. Talking to other players, none of them were having that issue. I finally asked the G.M. to meet out of session, showing them some emails they had ignored. They apologized about being too busy and asked if I wanted to roll a new character or modify my current one. I hadn't asked for a new character and that certainly wouldn't fix the G.M. issues, so I decided to retire from the group instead. My own roomate kept playing with said G.M. and enjoyed it.

Despite the G.M. not treating all players equally, the game sessions were fun. So are you having fun? If yes, keep it up. If no, talk to the players and G.M.



Thanks for the input.

1. The Stonewalling happens outside of combat. Anything outside combat shouldn't be a "turn" thing. And other comments like "I can't play your character for you" are condescending and unnecessary regardless of what sequence of gameplay we are in.

2. That could be the issue. But the GM knows that my character is weaker from a front line combat standpoint. I'm not saying I should never be targeted, but I feel there is a bias.

3. So, full disclosure, the game is actually DnD 5e. I brought it up on this forum because I've been a member here for a while and trust the feedback here more than some random website. I also didn't mention it because I felt that my issues were not game specific (we also played Dungeon Crawl Classics with the same group). The Classes are Necromancer, Rouge (Assassin), Warlock, Cleric, and a Minotaur Barbarian (!?!).

4. So he keeps trying to change my characters backstory. I told him my character was more of a scholar (think Jeffery Combs in Re-Animator). So he studied under an Archmage and when his mentor died during a experiment, he continued the experiments on his mentors dead body, causing him to be exiled from the institution and the community as a whole.

He kept trying to make me a shop keeper, an employer for a magical government, a member of a magical strike force, or working for a criminal organization. I told him I'm none of those things (not that they are bad, I just had different ideas about MY character). He later complain about how he spent time coming up with backstory. Look, I've GMed before. You can try to come up with stuff for your players, but if they don't like it or it isn't them then that's the way it is.

5. I feel like the fun I'm having is less than the anxiety the GM is making me feel.

But I agree, I don't want to be disruptive, but he gets all his digs during a game. Look whenever I've GMed (Note: I've never GMed with this group), I've defiantly not been perfect, but I feel that I've never tried to antagonize or lord power over a player. It seems like this is being done to me.

And I would change characters, but I feel like that's an inconvenience to me when I'm not the one wrong.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:06 pm
  

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foilfodder wrote:
Despite the G.M. not treating all players equally, the game sessions were fun. So are you having fun? If yes, keep it up. If no, talk to the players and G.M.


Hystrix wrote:
5. I feel like the fun I'm having is less than the anxiety the GM is making me feel.

But I agree, I don't want to be disruptive, but he gets all his digs during a game. Look whenever I've GMed (Note: I've never GMed with this group), I've defiantly not been perfect, but I feel that I've never tried to antagonize or lord power over a player. It seems like this is being done to me.

And I would change characters, but I feel like that's an inconvenience to me when I'm not the one wrong.


Sounds like the disagreement with the G.M. over your character's background is a problem for both of you, but maybe not the only problem. The phrase "I'm not the one in the wrong" is a RED FLAG. If you doubt the G.M.'s intentions, consider that they still allow you to bring your (I'll use the term unfinished) character into the game rather than refuse to allow you to play or kill your character off at first opportunity. If you feel you can't trust your G.M. do yourself a favor and LEAVE the game.

Hystrix wrote:
1. The Stonewalling happens outside of combat. Anything outside combat shouldn't be a "turn" thing. And other comments like "I can't play your character for you" are condescending and unnecessary regardless of what sequence of gameplay we are in.


Having two very young players in the group, what you consider "stonewalling" might be the G.M.'s attempt to get them a chance to participate more. The three other players are the two girls' dad (your buddy), the G.M.'s wife and you right? Three experienced gamers and two new? Giving new gamers a chance to lead is important to helping them enjoy. Talking to your buddy (the girls' dad) on this topic should not be a "taking-sides" issue.

As far as the second bit, you and the G.M. seem to have issues that need resolving.

Hystrix wrote:
4. So he keeps trying to change my characters backstory. I told him my character was more of a scholar (think Jeffery Combs in Re-Animator). So he studied under an Archmage and when his mentor died during a experiment, he continued the experiments on his mentors dead body, causing him to be exiled from the institution and the community as a whole.

He kept trying to make me a shop keeper, an employer for a magical government, a member of a magical strike force, or working for a criminal organization. I told him I'm none of those things (not that they are bad, I just had different ideas about MY character). He later complain about how he spent time coming up with backstory. Look, I've GMed before. You can try to come up with stuff for your players, but if they don't like it or it isn't them then that's the way it is.


So G.M. doesn't want to accept your original backstory and has offered you multiple alternates. You refuse anything but your original idea. While it is your character, it is also the G.M.'s campaign.

BOTH G.M. and Player need to agree for a character to be viable. Then hopefully both of you can relax and enjoy the game sessions.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:56 pm
  

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foilfodder wrote:

Sounds like the disagreement with the G.M. over your character's background is a problem for both of you, but maybe not the only problem. The phrase "I'm not the one in the wrong" is a RED FLAG. If you doubt the G.M.'s intentions, consider that they still allow you to bring your (I'll use the term unfinished) character into the game rather than refuse to allow you to play or kill your character off at first opportunity. If you feel you can't trust your G.M. do yourself a favor and LEAVE THE GAME NOW.


Maybe I'm not explaining this right. It isn't simply a back story issue. I shouldn't have brought it up. Clearly this was confusing. The GM is insulting me in a session by session basis. Character background is one issue.

Also, my character is defiantly finished. I gave him a COMPLETED backstory (one he didn't like, i guess) and a completed character sheet. Not sure were you got he was incomplete.

Why is "I'm not the one in the wrong" a RED FLAG? If someone treats me poorly, I'm wrong?

Quote:
Having two very young players in the group, what you consider "stonewalling" might be the G.M.'s attempt to get them a chance to participate more. The three other players are the two girls' dad (your buddy), the G.M.'s wife and you right? Three experienced gamers and two new? Giving new gamers a chance to lead is important to helping them enjoy. Talking to your buddy (the girls' dad) on this topic should not be a "taking-sides" issue.

As far as the second bit, you and the G.M. seem to have issues that need resolving.


Maybe. But he's not doing that to the other adults in the room. If he was, I'd agree.

Quote:
So G.M. doesn't want to accept your original backstory and has offered you multiple alternates, but you refuse anything but your original idea. While it is your character, it is also the G.M.'s campaign. BOTH G.M. and Player need to be on the same page. Then hopefully both of you can relax and enjoy the game sessions.


So I need to compromise my vision for my character (which is really the only thing a player controls)? And just because he's offered multiple alternative dose that mean I have to accept one even if I don't like it?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:06 pm
  

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Okay two things I see as very wrong here

1) Both you and the G.M. need to agree on the backstory for the character. If you both can not reach a point where you agree, you really shouldn't be sitting down at a table to game together.

2) You are staying in a game where you are sure the G.M. is verbally abusing you.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:40 pm
  

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foilfodder wrote:
Okay two things I see as very wrong here

1) Both you and the G.M. need to agree on the backstory for the character. If you both can not reach a point where you agree, you really shouldn't be sitting down at a table to game together.

2) You are staying in a game where you are sure the G.M. is verbally abusing you.



1. It isn't that he doesn't agree with my back story. It's just he kept wanting to change it. I seemed he was more trying to change it and was ignoring my input. But I see your point, which is why I was seeking advice in the first place.

2. Agreed. But I'm trying to find a solution rather than just walk away.

I'm not sure if were gonna play a session anytime soon, but I'll update next time I get a chance to talk to the GM.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:12 am
  

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Hystrix wrote:
This is more of a game ethics question then a GM inquiry. I wasn’t sure what forum on which to post this.

So I’ve been playing about five sessions of a game as a Necromancer. I don’t think it’s a secret the Necromancers aren’t exactly tanks. So I’m having a few issues with the GM.
I guess my issue is that I feel this GM is a little toxic. I’ve been role playing for 30+ years and I’ve seen players who are disruptive during a game. I don’t like that, but I’m about to become “that guy.”

Please advise.

Not all players are compatible with all GMs. Not all players are compatible with all groups. That doesn't make one any more "toxic" than the other, only that the two are not necessarily compatible. You've been playing for a long time, surely you understand this principle by now?

Ask yourself if your character is compatible with the other characters? You're playing a classic Necromancer, a decidedly dark trope, with a couple of very young players. Is your character compatible with those players? Are You? Is your current play style? Is your character Rated G? PG? PG-13? (the classic Necromancer imo would be PG-13 at least, bordering on R territory. Is the GM trying to tone it down for the younger players?)

If the GM is trying to change aspects of your back story, ask why those aspects of your back story need changing. It could be narrative related, it could be the age of the other players involved.

Also, consider the GM's responsibilities to the other players, and how you're interacting with that responsibility. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, but have you considered it? Have you examined your actions from his likely perspectives?

Are you sure you are communicating effectively with the GM? At this point, I would have to say it's rather obvious that you aren't communicating effectively with this particular GM. Maybe you should look into communication styles and see what you can do to fix that? While the GM bears half the responsibility for the friction between you two, you bear the other half. Often, the reason for that friction is merely a communications problem. There are 5 primary schools of communication, and if neither of you can translate successfully from the other's school, it's hardly a mystery that there could be difficulties.

In the end, if you can't work it out, just remember that not all players are compatible with all groups or GMs, and there is no shame in that for anyone involved. There is no moral imperative that we all share the same values and get along perfectly at all times. As long as you can part ways amicably, maybe it'll be your buddy who's GM next time, and you can join that game, or maybe you can GM for your buddy & his family?

Good Luck

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:38 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Hystrix wrote:
This is more of a game ethics question then a GM inquiry. I wasn’t sure what forum on which to post this.

So I’ve been playing about five sessions of a game as a Necromancer. I don’t think it’s a secret the Necromancers aren’t exactly tanks. So I’m having a few issues with the GM.
I guess my issue is that I feel this GM is a little toxic. I’ve been role playing for 30+ years and I’ve seen players who are disruptive during a game. I don’t like that, but I’m about to become “that guy.”

Please advise.

Not all players are compatible with all GMs. Not all players are compatible with all groups. That doesn't make one any more "toxic" than the other, only that the two are not necessarily compatible. You've been playing for a long time, surely you understand this principle by now?

Ask yourself if your character is compatible with the other characters? You're playing a classic Necromancer, a decidedly dark trope, with a couple of very young players. Is your character compatible with those players? Are You? Is your current play style? Is your character Rated G? PG? PG-13? (the classic Necromancer imo would be PG-13 at least, bordering on R territory. Is the GM trying to tone it down for the younger players?)

If the GM is trying to change aspects of your back story, ask why those aspects of your back story need changing. It could be narrative related, it could be the age of the other players involved.

Also, consider the GM's responsibilities to the other players, and how you're interacting with that responsibility. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, but have you considered it? Have you examined your actions from his likely perspectives?

Are you sure you are communicating effectively with the GM? At this point, I would have to say it's rather obvious that you aren't communicating effectively with this particular GM. Maybe you should look into communication styles and see what you can do to fix that? While the GM bears half the responsibility for the friction between you two, you bear the other half. Often, the reason for that friction is merely a communications problem. There are 5 primary schools of communication, and if neither of you can translate successfully from the other's school, it's hardly a mystery that there could be difficulties.

In the end, if you can't work it out, just remember that not all players are compatible with all groups or GMs, and there is no shame in that for anyone involved. There is no moral imperative that we all share the same values and get along perfectly at all times. As long as you can part ways amicably, maybe it'll be your buddy who's GM next time, and you can join that game, or maybe you can GM for your buddy & his family?

Good Luck


Thanks for the input.

So, I don't think its the age of the players that is an issue. We do PG it up quite a bit. I have children of my own, and I know how to tone down adult conversions. I
don't think this is the issue, but maybe I'll have to have a candid conversion with the GM and I'll ask about this. It couldn't hurt.

It's true we don't always have to get along, but I'm defiantly being mistreated at least in some moderate ways. My buddy and I spoke and I will be joining his game when he starts running it. We also talked about me running a game. I'm also working on running a game or two with just my family. I think with this game, it will not be the end of the world if I leave, but I agree it needs to be with some grace. At the end of the day, I don't have a lot of local gaming friends, and I don't want to burn bridges.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:06 pm
  

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I've been in that situation a couple times.

Once it boiled down to: The GM didn't know me, didn't really want to take on another player, but our mutual friend who had invited me pressured him into it. So he basically made the game suck for me until I left. There were plenty of other groups so I didn't stick it out too long, it wasn't worth my time.

The other time the GM was just a dick, took it out on me for a couple sessions but I stuck it out because my friend claimed he was just testing me. Then a new guy showed up and it was his turn to be the punching bag. Apparently the GM had self esteem problems or something and just took it out on the fresh meat. I didn't stick around there either.

If the situation is toxic and the GM isn't willing to be reasonable then it might just not be worth showing up. If you aren't having fun, why play? It's supposed to be a game.

Maybe he isn't happy with the necromancer, but he should have said no instead of letting you roll it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:16 pm
  

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LostOne wrote:
I've been in that situation a couple times.

Once it boiled down to: The GM didn't know me, didn't really want to take on another player, but our mutual friend who had invited me pressured him into it. So he basically made the game suck for me until I left. There were plenty of other groups so I didn't stick it out too long, it wasn't worth my time.


That could be it. The GM didn't know me so maybe he figured it didn't matter how he treated me.

Quote:
The other time the GM was just a dick, took it out on me for a couple sessions but I stuck it out because my friend claimed he was just testing me. Then a new guy showed up and it was his turn to be the punching bag. Apparently the GM had self esteem problems or something and just took it out on the fresh meat. I didn't stick around there either.

If the situation is toxic and the GM isn't willing to be reasonable then it might just not be worth showing up. If you aren't having fun, why play? It's supposed to be a game.


See I'm sticking around because I don't have a lot of options for gaming groups here. My job forces me to move a lot IRL so I'm always having to make new gaming friends. Sometimes my options are limited to 1.) play with this douche or 2.) don't play at all.

Quote:

Maybe he isn't happy with the necromancer, but he should have said no instead of letting you roll it.


Agreed. Wish he'd have told me that. I could have made a different character.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:34 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 10:29 pm
Posts: 2007
Hystrix wrote:
See I'm sticking around because I don't have a lot of options for gaming groups here. My job forces me to move a lot IRL so I'm always having to make new gaming friends. Sometimes my options are limited to 1.) play with this douche or 2.) don't play at all.

Yeah, that sucks. If you still keep in touch with any old groups you loved playing with, now might be the time to reach out and see about playing remotely with them. With this pandemic many groups are moving to zoom or discord or other online service to keep playing remotely with each other. You could maybe join in and keep it going after the pandemic ends with you still joining remotely.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:45 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm
Posts: 241
I've left groups where the GM was being toxic.
I've also been in groups where the GM got uninvited for being toxic, and we had to figure out who was going to be a GM from there.

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