Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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Nuristas
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Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

Greetings,

While playing we had a short discussion regarding Phase Weapons and Impervious to Energy.
Does the spell block phase weapon damage or not?

In the end we ruled it was special, just as some other types of energy and it was not blocked we were left wondering.

Curious how others are ruling/playing it.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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DB2 pg122 mentions "phase beamers are stopped by magic barriers the same as if they were force fields, including magic armor, magic invulnerability, energy field, impenetrable wall of force, id barrier, and magic walls (any)."

I guess it depends on how ItE operates, if it is is a barrier type spell or operates by changing physical properties of the object. The spell description doesn't give much help. Though by all indications it looks like ItE would block Phase beamers given it doesn't appear to operate as a barrier type spell.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

I2E is NOT a barrier spell, and only protects against "energy" weapons, a class of weapons like lasers, flamethrowers, natural fire, particle beams, and such that project or launch energy beams or blasts that burn, shock, explode or scorch the target.

A phase weapon is NOT an energy weapon. While it's similar, a high tech death ray that runs on batteries, the method of damaging the target is very different. A phase beamer does not heat you up, burn or shock you. it tears apart your body by dragging parts of it out of phase with the rest of the universe. The phase weapons have special rules, and enough flavor text otherwise to declare phase beamers are not energy, ignore I2E, and be only stopped by actual magic barriers and force fields as listed.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

ITWastrel wrote:I2E is NOT a barrier spell, and only protects against "energy" weapons, a class of weapons like lasers, flamethrowers, natural fire, particle beams, and such that project or launch energy beams or blasts that burn, shock, explode or scorch the target.

A phase weapon is NOT an energy weapon. While it's similar, a high tech death ray that runs on batteries, the method of damaging the target is very different. A phase beamer does not heat you up, burn or shock you. it tears apart your body by dragging parts of it out of phase with the rest of the universe. The phase weapons have special rules, and enough flavor text otherwise to declare phase beamers are not energy, ignore I2E, and be only stopped by actual magic barriers and force fields as listed.


Which leaves me to wonder, what would phase weapons do to somebody who is "invulnerable"? Since he's only truly harmed by magical/psionic or supernatural strength attacks?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The twisting of space and time effect is not an energy blast.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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Nuristas wrote:Which leaves me to wonder, what would phase weapons do to somebody who is "invulnerable"? Since he's only truly harmed by magical/psionic or supernatural strength attacks?


As I recall, the wording in their description (phase weapons) implies that you have to specifically be immune to their attacks, and that other types of invulnerability don't protect against phase weapons.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

The Beast wrote:
Nuristas wrote:Which leaves me to wonder, what would phase weapons do to somebody who is "invulnerable"? Since he's only truly harmed by magical/psionic or supernatural strength attacks?


As I recall, the wording in their description (phase weapons) implies that you have to specifically be immune to their attacks, and that other types of invulnerability don't protect against phase weapons.


True,

you could even consider it like a magical attack I think. Since it transcends what science can do/understand and even magic has difficulties replicating it.
It you consider it as such, all discussion is moot.

No clue if that is the right way to go though or over the top.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Nuristas wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Nuristas wrote:Which leaves me to wonder, what would phase weapons do to somebody who is "invulnerable"? Since he's only truly harmed by magical/psionic or supernatural strength attacks?


As I recall, the wording in their description (phase weapons) implies that you have to specifically be immune to their attacks, and that other types of invulnerability don't protect against phase weapons.


True,

you could even consider it like a magical attack I think. Since it transcends what science can do/understand and even magic has difficulties replicating it.
It you consider it as such, all discussion is moot.

No clue if that is the right way to go though or over the top.


Look at the Phase Mystic in the 1st G3 book. They use ISP as their power source. If anything they are Psionic effects. But the thing is...the Phase weapons use e-clips...so they are 'in themselves' mundane (non-mystical) even if they do produce a quasi-mystical effect.

--------
The Beast wrote:As I recall, the wording in their description (phase weapons) implies that you have to specifically be immune to their attacks, and that other types of invulnerability don't protect against phase weapons.


What do you think of a Char with the "Create Force Fields" super power. Would their power block phase weapons?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What do you think of a Char with the "Create Force Fields" super power. Would their power block phase weapons?


If the superpower was mystically bestowed in some way, yes I'd allow it to stop phase weapons. Otherwise I'd be leaning toward treating it as a normal shield, however I think that if I were GM'ing I'd try to get a consensus for the others at the table first in case they either don't agree with it or one of them knows where Palladium has already ruled one way or the other.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

Create force field qualifies to stop phase beamers in it's title. Phase weapons are stopped by forcefields (DB2, pp122), whether magic or tech, and the title of the power kinda brooks no argument.

Why would there need to be a "if mystically bestowed" qualifier there?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

ITWastrel wrote:Create force field qualifies to stop phase beamers in it's title. Phase weapons are stopped by forcefields (DB2, pp122), whether magic or tech, and the title of the power kinda brooks no argument.

Why would there need to be a "if mystically bestowed" qualifier there?


I also don't think there needs to be a mystical quality to it.
Do Phase Weapons ignore cyber-armor or would they kill the cyborg's brain ignoring his metal body?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.

Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.

Per the FAQ, question 9.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Borast »

This will depend on whether you consider a phase field energy, or an extremely local alteration of physical laws.

If I recall, Cosmoknights, whom are "Resistant to Energy attacks" (1/100th[?] damage) take reduced damage (1/2[?]) from phase attacks. In consideration of this, I would rule "Impervious to Energy" would essentially almost eliminate any damage, maybe a maximum of 1 point per die?

Nuristas wrote:Do Phase Weapons ignore cyber-armor or would they kill the cyborg's brain ignoring his metal body?

Answered elsewhere, and apparently canon - phase weaponry damages the chassis of the 'borg. As a GM, I would rule that any supplemental armour bolted onto the chassis would be skipped.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

Borast wrote:This will depend on whether you consider a phase field energy, or an extremely local alteration of physical laws.

If I recall, Cosmoknights, whom are "Resistant to Energy attacks" (1/100th[?] damage) take reduced damage (1/2[?]) from phase attacks. In consideration of this, I would rule "Impervious to Energy" would essentially almost eliminate any damage, maybe a maximum of 1 point per die?

Nuristas wrote:Do Phase Weapons ignore cyber-armor or would they kill the cyborg's brain ignoring his metal body?

Answered elsewhere, and apparently canon - phase weaponry damages the chassis of the 'borg. As a GM, I would rule that any supplemental armour bolted onto the chassis would be skipped.



No offense intended, but nothing you posted is supported by the rules as written, or as intended. Cosmo-knights are NOT the impervious to energy spell. Any resistances they have are irrelevant. Per the official FAQ, Phase weapons ignore the chassis of a borg (all the artificial parts)as well as any armor, and only harm the organics.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Borast »

ITWastrel wrote:No offense intended, but nothing you posted is supported by the rules as written, or as intended. Cosmo-knights are NOT the impervious to energy spell. Any resistances they have are irrelevant. Per the official FAQ, Phase weapons ignore the chassis of a borg (all the artificial parts)as well as any armor, and only harm the organics.


None taken.
However, you ARE making me walk over to my book shelf... Hang on...
>Spend several minutes reading<
Okay...
I remember reading somewhere that one type of "energy" weapon did increased damage versus CKs... (Maybe the Tri-Beam from the SA2 book?) Apparently not a phase beamer.

BUT... from the Mouth of Siembieda - Phase beamers can not "one-shot" a 'borg.
Also, from (somewhere in the morass that is) the RUE - 'borgs are immune to attacks that bypass armour.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

RUE pp47 states that Borg are immune to attacks that cause damage direct to hit points.

Phase weapons do not do damage direct to hit points.
Phase weapons damage organic materials inflicting SDC or MDC as appropriate, and after depleting that SDC the damage comes off hit points as normal.

Since they ignore armor, and Borg apparently* have hit points, phase weapons do damage to the Borg's hit points. If they had SDC that would have come first.



*After a reread of the new RUE Borg entry, I am questioning if Borg actually HAVE hit points. Page 47 states "is considered a Mega-Damage bring now"
Are the new rules that a full conversion borg is an MDC structure/creature and thus has no hit points? If so, this whole discussion is moot and Borg are now likely immune to phase weapons.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

ITWastrel wrote:RUE pp47 states that Borg are immune to attacks that cause damage direct to hit points.

Phase weapons do not do damage direct to hit points.
Phase weapons damage organic materials inflicting SDC or MDC as appropriate, and after depleting that SDC the damage comes off hit points as normal.

Since they ignore armor, and Borg apparently* have hit points, phase weapons do damage to the Borg's hit points. If they had SDC that would have come first.



*After a reread of the new RUE Borg entry, I am questioning if Borg actually HAVE hit points. Page 47 states "is considered a Mega-Damage bring now"
Are the new rules that a full conversion borg is an MDC structure/creature and thus has no hit points? If so, this whole discussion is moot and Borg are now likely immune to phase weapons.


So I get it right:

Phase Weapons are murder against vampires (can damage them and destroys their uber regeneration)
Phase Weapons are great against things which are organic even if in a tin can like a power armor
Phase Weapons ignore impervious to energy since not a forcefield effect and not in the intended damage types to block
Phase Weapons don't do anything against physical objects and Borgs are also immune to them since borgs are just considered an MDC being now and you can't target the squishy parts since unstatted.

Does that resume where we ended up?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Nuristas wrote:
ITWastrel wrote:RUE pp47 states that Borg are immune to attacks that cause damage direct to hit points.

Phase weapons do not do damage direct to hit points.
Phase weapons damage organic materials inflicting SDC or MDC as appropriate, and after depleting that SDC the damage comes off hit points as normal.

Since they ignore armor, and Borg apparently* have hit points, phase weapons do damage to the Borg's hit points. If they had SDC that would have come first.



*After a reread of the new RUE Borg entry, I am questioning if Borg actually HAVE hit points. Page 47 states "is considered a Mega-Damage bring now"
Are the new rules that a full conversion borg is an MDC structure/creature and thus has no hit points? If so, this whole discussion is moot and Borg are now likely immune to phase weapons.


So I get it right:

Phase Weapons are murder against vampires (can damage them and destroys their uber regeneration)
Phase Weapons are great against things which are organic even if in a tin can like a power armor
Phase Weapons ignore impervious to energy since not a forcefield effect and not in the intended damage types to block
Phase Weapons don't do anything against physical objects and Borgs are also immune to them since borgs are just considered an MDC being now and you can't target the squishy parts since unstatted.

Does that resume where we ended up?

This looks like a good review of the rules as discussed here but just to throw something else into the crap pile, does this mean Mechanoids are immune to phase weapons?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

does this mean Mechanoids are immune to phase weapons?


After a read of R:SB2, Some Mechanoids... Have SDC, but no HP(?) but ABMs don't have the same SDC listed, or any HP, but still have removable containment units containing the majority of their organics just like their mean brothers...

Hey, anyone know when Mechanoid Space drops? I got a question now.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Warshield73 »

ITWastrel wrote:
does this mean Mechanoids are immune to phase weapons?


After a read of R:SB2, Some Mechanoids... Have SDC, but no HP(?) but ABMs don't have the same SDC listed, or any HP, but still have removable containment units containing the majority of their organics just like their mean brothers...

Hey, anyone know when Mechanoid Space drops? I got a question now.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mechanoid Space, that's funny.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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ITWastrel wrote:Hey, anyone know when Mechanoid Space drops? I got a question now.


In the year 5,000,000,023.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Nuristas »

The Beast wrote:
ITWastrel wrote:Hey, anyone know when Mechanoid Space drops? I got a question now.


In the year 5,000,000,023.


One final question came up:

How do Phase Weapons interact with a Cosmo-Knights Energy Resistance?
Do they ignore it or do they get reduced to no damage?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I would say that phase weapons ignore the CK's energy resistance.
In the Hammer of the forge chapters I believe there is a fight in there where the bodies pull out phase weapons acting like it is their silver bullet verses CKs.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would say that phase weapons ignore the CK's energy resistance.
In the Hammer of the forge chapters I believe there is a fight in there where the bodies pull out phase weapons acting like it is their silver bullet verses CKs.


Unless said cosmo-knight took the force field option .
Since that utterly cancels out phase weapons. (which Caleb doesn't have in the novels)

For me, I am double on it since in a later book, they specify that the demon knight attack (which is also x energy) ignores the cosmo-knights resistance.
Maybe they were just goons thinking that it was a great idea since phase weapons are a great idea against most sentients.
Or maybe it's just... creative writing ignoring the rules.

Still on the fence on this one.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

'How would the CK having a FF let their energy resistance come into play verses phase weapons?' is the question I would ask. Since the text you wrote says this is something you think would happen.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:'How would the CK having a FF let their energy resistance come into play verses phase weapons?' is the question I would ask. Since the text you wrote says this is something you think would happen.


I think I explained things wrongly then.

1. A Cosmo-Knight with the Force Field option would be immune to phase weapons since force fields block phase weapons.
2. I wonder if a Cosmo-knight without said option would reduce the damage of phase weapons since energy types which pass this defense are specifically named. And this one, which is in the same book, does not share this distinction. So it isn't unlogical to assume their ability would work and reduce damage.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Phase weapons damage FFs normally. It is just they can't bypass them like with physical armor.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Axelmania »

If phase harms organic, are vampires still organic in mist form?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:If phase harms organic, are vampires still organic in mist form?

Since they are undead....it would need to be asked does the word 'organic' mean what scientists' mean when they co-op'ed the word "carbon compounds' or is the real meaning of the word means 'life based compounds'. Yes, it is a significant difference in meaning, so it is an apt question.

Cause if you say the science co-op'ed meaning.... then okay... I'll make a MDC armor made out of carbon compounds which will be an effective armor vs phase weapons.

Or does the text really mean that the phase weapons it only interacts with the life, or magic of the being it hits to cause damage in that life's physical anchor....
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by ITWastrel »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:If phase harms organic, are vampires still organic in mist form?

Since they are undead....it would need to be asked does the word 'organic' mean what scientists' mean when they co-op'ed the word "carbon compounds' or is the real meaning of the word means 'life based compounds'. Yes, it is a significant difference in meaning, so it is an apt question.

Cause if you say the science co-op'ed meaning.... then okay... I'll make a MDC armor made out of carbon compounds which will be an effective armor vs phase weapons.

Or does the text really mean that the phase weapons it only interacts with the life, or magic of the being it hits to cause damage in that life's physical anchor....



It means that nonliving materials can tolerate their molecules being skewed 30 degrees left to right and back again a while lot better than a living creature can.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

ITWastrel wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:If phase harms organic, are vampires still organic in mist form?

Since they are undead....it would need to be asked does the word 'organic' mean what scientists' mean when they co-op'ed the word "carbon compounds' or is the real meaning of the word means 'life based compounds'. Yes, it is a significant difference in meaning, so it is an apt question.

Cause if you say the science co-op'ed meaning.... then okay... I'll make a MDC armor made out of carbon compounds which will be an effective armor vs phase weapons.

Or does the text really mean that the phase weapons it only interacts with the life, or magic of the being it hits to cause damage in that life's physical anchor....



It means that nonliving materials can tolerate their molecules being skewed 30 degrees left to right and back again a while lot better than a living creature can.

Can you define what you are trying to define????? you left out the subject of your sentence by using a Pronoun.
And since I gave an ether this or that question, if you were going to give a option not within the choices given you should of prefaced your sentence with 'nether of those,....' However, since I gave the ONLY two option, that option was closed to you.

Insomuch, it Sounds like you are saying it means the scientific carbon molecules co-op'ed meaning.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by eliakon »

I would say this is a pure GM call.
Because it requires defining what a Phase Beam *is* in the first place.

Personally, in my games, I would treat it fundamentally the same as Cosmic Energy and other Elder Race weapons... because, at the end of the day that is what they *are*
As they are Elder Tech, I would say that they bypass mere spells.
May I suggest researching Impervious to Phase?
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by The Beast »

ITWastrel wrote:Create force field qualifies to stop phase beamers in it's title. Phase weapons are stopped by forcefields (DB2, pp122), whether magic or tech, and the title of the power kinda brooks no argument.

Why would there need to be a "if mystically bestowed" qualifier there?


To answer your question I recalled that pirates loved the weapons because they kill the crew without damaging the ship, but didn't remember the part about force fields.
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Subject: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

The Beast wrote:
ITWastrel wrote:Create force field qualifies to stop phase beamers in it's title. Phase weapons are stopped by forcefields (DB2, pp122), whether magic or tech, and the title of the power kinda brooks no argument.

Why would there need to be a "if mystically bestowed" qualifier there?


To answer your question I recalled that pirates loved the weapons because they kill the crew without damaging the ship, but didn't remember the part about force fields.

part one: you said you'd answer the question.
part two: you told a story
part three: you said you couldn't answer the question.
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As to an answer to the question...the original text does not specify whether or not the Ff had to be mystical in nature or not to block phase beamer weapons. So it would not matter if the create ff super ability was mystically bestowed or not for it to block them.
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Borast
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by Borast »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would say that phase weapons ignore the CK's energy resistance.
In the Hammer of the forge chapters I believe there is a fight in there where the bodies pull out phase weapons acting like it is their silver bullet verses CKs.


"Fan Fiction" is not canon.
That being said, I did enjoy it so much in the Rifters, I bought it from Drive Thru...
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Re: Phase Weapons vs Impervious to Energy

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Borast wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would say that phase weapons ignore the CK's energy resistance.
In the Hammer of the forge chapters I believe there is a fight in there where the bodies pull out phase weapons acting like it is their silver bullet verses CKs.


"Fan Fiction" is not canon.
That being said, I did enjoy it so much in the Rifters, I bought it from Drive Thru...

I would say it is more 'optional' than not because it is in a Rifter.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
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