Trade languages, native languages and culture.

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Warshield73
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Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

I was writing some background for a Phase World adventure based on the following:

- Information recovered from a human warship drifting in space since the AI war.

Now I was trying to decide what language it would be in and if it is in an old human language, like actual English or Chinese would anyone know how to read it?

Also, do the major races still use there native language(s)? Very few are even mentioned and almost none are listed as actual OCC or RCC skills. The Noro OCCs have no listed language, in a few places we see the "elf" language or the "dwarf" language or "kreeghor" in descriptions but not as listed skills, the Oni RCCs have a language listed but they are the exception.

Many OCCs list trade languages as the native languages so would that be the case throughout the three galaxies and individual languages just disappear?

Separate question: Trade 6 is listed as a new language created by CCW linguists. I have always had this as only being a hundred or two hundred years old and very few speaks, mostly in the CCW.
Is the creation date of Trade 6 listed anywhere and does anyone see this differently.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

If I recall trade 4 is based on English. People have the ability to communicate with people from NA so earth langues can not be unknown in phase world. (some of the words might be different but the base is the same so it would be possible to read.)
There could be language translators programmed with old earth languages.
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There are also races that can understand all languages.

Other languages likely fell to back ground. They may still be known but thousands exist. It even says so. The use as trade languages as native is to make it easier for the party to be able to talk.


If it was over a generation old (20 years) it could have spread quite far and would not be uncommon.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Yes, there are native languages still used on their native planets. It is just they are not listed to save space.
[even the elf and dwarf languages listed in the books would act as trade languages between elves and dwarves due to how lingistic drift is a million times faster then genetic drift. With each Elf and dwarf planet developing their own diaect of elf or dwarf.]

Yes, the Trade Languages will tend to infiltrate the cultures of planets. But depending on the culture of the planet. will determain how much the trade languages infiltrate the planet's nat lang.

Mostly it will just be the spacers, customs staff and ambasitorial staffs that will see a trade language 'take over'.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, there are native languages still used on their native planets. It is just they are not listed to save space.
[even the elf and dwarf languages listed in the books would act as trade languages between elves and dwarves due to how lingistic drift is a million times faster then genetic drift. With each Elf and dwarf planet developing their own diaect of elf or dwarf.]

Yes, the Trade Languages will tend to infiltrate the cultures of planets. But depending on the culture of the planet. will determain how much the trade languages infiltrate the planet's nat lang.

Mostly it will just be the spacers, customs staff and ambasitorial staffs that will see a trade language 'take over'.

See I tend to agree with you but there is nothing in the books that corroborate it. Now I put a lot of things in Rifts in general and PW in particular that are not in the books but I am trying to get the book stuff first. In the books all we have are a few For most of the OCC's a trade language is listed as the Native tongue not as an extra the way I would expect.

Some planets seem to be monocultures (wulfen and Oni come to mind) but others like humans and noro had nation states and probably separate cultures.

As for Trade languages just being for spacers and diplomats that seems unlikely as it specifically says that if you speak 3 or more of the languages your all but guaranteed to be able to communicate on most planets. To me this says that even planet based people tend to use them.

Since there doesn't seem to be anything in the book about native languages I think this falls into the category of if you need it you need to create it for yourself.

I ended up creating a few languages for Humans from there early history that connect to Earth languages that I am tentatively titling Terran-Angla (English) and Terran-Mand (Mandarin) which would be the most common. I am basing this on the description of Trade 4 so I am thinking I might include less common languages like Terran-Russk (Russian) and maybe something like Terran-Espa or Terran-Castil (Spanish). I'm still not clear on how much of human culture and language came through with Terrans from whichever earth they came from but I always assumed it was very little but I figure by the time of the CCW most Terran languages had been subsumed by Trade 4.

As for Trade 6 I would still like to figure out how old it is but for me I rarely use it anyway. Trade 1-5 are specific OCC skills for several OCCs but trade 6 not once so I just assume that it is largely an academic and diplomatic language.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Warshield73 wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, there are native languages still used on their native planets. It is just they are not listed to save space.
[even the elf and dwarf languages listed in the books would act as trade languages between elves and dwarves due to how lingistic drift is a million times faster then genetic drift. With each Elf and dwarf planet developing their own diaect of elf or dwarf.]


Eh... Linguistic Drift is also rapidly disappearing completely in the real world because of recording technology. In places like the 3G, it's probably almost nonexistent unless a society becomes totally isolated.

See I tend to agree with you but there is nothing in the books that corroborate it. Now I put a lot of things in Rifts in general and PW in particular that are not in the books but I am trying to get the book stuff first. In the books all we have are a few For most of the OCC's a trade language is listed as the Native tongue not as an extra the way I would expect.

Some planets seem to be monocultures (wulfen and Oni come to mind)


No on the Wolfen, at the very least. There are huge Wolfen populations that were never part of the Wolfen Empire (something like 12% of the UWW is Wolfen, and UWW space was nowhere near the Wolfen Empire).

However, Trade Three (i think? might have the number wrong) IS their native language.

but others like humans and noro had nation states and probably separate cultures.

As for Trade languages just being for spacers and diplomats that seems unlikely as it specifically says that if you speak 3 or more of the languages your all but guaranteed to be able to communicate on most planets. To me this says that even planet based people tend to use them.


I'd view this as something more akin to how a lot of countries other than the US basically make everyone learn English and/or Spanish in school. They probably have a native language (depending on race, for Humans, Trade 4 IS their native tongue (if thats the right number), but they ALSO learn a Trade Language (or two) in school. As an example, most Germans learn English in their equivalent of Middle School (all of them, if i recall); but the chances of them actually having to use it, in most cases, is quite low. But they all learn it. Same for most civilized worlds, i'd guess. You learn the native language (if there even is one; keep in mind a lot of places have been founded as Colonies of space-faring nations, so they might not have an ancient local language and just use a Trade language as the local language) and then learn a Trade language or two as a routine part of your education.

Since there doesn't seem to be anything in the book about native languages I think this falls into the category of if you need it you need to create it for yourself.

I ended up creating a few languages for Humans from there early history that connect to Earth languages that I am tentatively titling Terran-Angla (English)


Trade 4 (or whatever #) IS English. Just with different slang and connotations due to it being space based, but the basic language, syntax, etc, is identical.

and Terran-Mand (Mandarin) which would be the most common. I am basing this on the description of Trade 4 so I am thinking I might include less common languages like Terran-Russk (Russian) and maybe something like Terran-Espa or Terran-Castil (Spanish). I'm still not clear on how much of human culture and language came through with Terrans from whichever earth they came from but I always assumed it was very little but I figure by the time of the CCW most Terran languages had been subsumed by Trade 4.


Rather, (as it is implied) its far more likely that Humans came through from wherever, and then fell to complete Barbarism before regaining technology and space travel. So they probably retain precisely nothing of their previous cultures.

As for Trade 6 I would still like to figure out how old it is but for me I rarely use it anyway. Trade 1-5 are specific OCC skills for several OCCs but trade 6 not once so I just assume that it is largely an academic and diplomatic language.
[/quote]

Diplomatic, yes, to be sure, but still well-used precisely BECAUSE it is so universal.

As for age, if it was developed by the CCW, the best/easiest/KISS assumption is "not too much younger than the CCW itself". So, take the founding of the CCW, subtract ~30 years, and call it a day.

Edited for bad quoting.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, there are native languages still used on their native planets. It is just they are not listed to save space.
[even the elf and dwarf languages listed in the books would act as trade languages between elves and dwarves due to how lingistic drift is a million times faster then genetic drift. With each Elf and dwarf planet developing their own diaect of elf or dwarf.]


Eh... Linguistic Drift is also rapidly disappearing completely in the real world because of recording technology. In places like the 3G, it's probably almost nonexistent unless a society becomes totally isolated.

Sorry, went full Geography Teacher here. Correct but most cultural and linguistic anthropologists that I have read and taught about link this to international mass media rather than recording devices in and of them selves. Recording devices have been around for over a century but as recently as the 1990's linguistic drift was actually accelerating. Examples would be Spanish in Mexico vs Spain (I have a hysterical story with teachers from Spain coming to Houston to teach Mexican-American students in 1998) and Mandarin in China vs expatriate groups in the US, Australia, Vietnam. Mass media going international is what stems this tide and in many cases, including the two I cited, have actually reversed. This being said your point about drift only really happening to groups who are isolated I think would be correct. But, as we have seen in real world examples it can happen quickly, 2 or 3 generations for a dialectical change and full separate language 5 or more generations.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:See I tend to agree with you but there is nothing in the books that corroborate it. Now I put a lot of things in Rifts in general and PW in particular that are not in the books but I am trying to get the book stuff first. In the books all we have are a few For most of the OCC's a trade language is listed as the Native tongue not as an extra the way I would expect.

Some planets seem to be monocultures (wulfen and Oni come to mind)


No on the Wolfen, at the very least. There are huge Wolfen populations that were never part of the Wolfen Empire (something like 12% of the UWW is Wolfen, and UWW space was nowhere near the Wolfen Empire).

However, Trade Three (i think? might have the number wrong) IS their native language.


I didn't say anything about where they came from I called them a monoculture. This is true both in PW and PFRPG. In PFRPG there are I think 4 or more human languages but for Wolfen there is only 1. The same is true in PW. The Wolfen are described as basically a single, mono, cultural identity that has had very little in the way of variation that I have seen. Trade 3 is there language but it is not identical to Wolfen in PFRPG.
DB 2: Phase World, Pg. 52 wrote:Trade Three: Trade Three is the wolfen language, slightly streamlined to reduce the guttural and growling elements common to the "classical" Wolfen language, but is otherwise identical. However, to make a good impression on wolfen speakers, it is necessary to emphasize the growls and whines of the original language. 50% plus any LQ. bonuses and 5% per level of experience.

The Oni are described the same with only one language and cultural identity.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:...but others like humans and noro had nation states and probably separate cultures.

As for Trade languages just being for spacers and diplomats that seems unlikely as it specifically says that if you speak 3 or more of the languages your all but guaranteed to be able to communicate on most planets. To me this says that even planet based people tend to use them.


I'd view this as something more akin to how a lot of countries other than the US basically make everyone learn English and/or Spanish in school. They probably have a native language (depending on race, for Humans, Trade 4 IS their native tongue (if thats the right number), but they ALSO learn a Trade Language (or two) in school. As an example, most Germans learn English in their equivalent of Middle School (all of them, if i recall); but the chances of them actually having to use it, in most cases, is quite low. But they all learn it. Same for most civilized worlds, i'd guess. You learn the native language (if there even is one; keep in mind a lot of places have been founded as Colonies of space-faring nations, so they might not have an ancient local language and just use a Trade language as the local language) and then learn a Trade language or two as a routine part of your education.

First, I almost entirely agree with you on this but as I said earlier there is nothing in the book to support it. Again this is how I sort of run it but I am trying to find stuff in the book first.

Second, culturally languages disappear when they lack value in terms of economics and social status. If your kids are all watching vids and reading books in Trade 4 than your native language is in trouble. When your kids have started to make vids and write books in Trade 4 instead of your native language it is dying, This is why you see such strong language purity laws in France and why there is even some push back against the laws requiring English in schools in Germany. It takes a lot of work to maintain a culturally intact language.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:Since there doesn't seem to be anything in the book about native languages I think this falls into the category of if you need it you need to create it for yourself.

I ended up creating a few languages for Humans from there early history that connect to Earth languages that I am tentatively titling Terran-Angla (English)


Trade 4 (or whatever #) IS English. Just with different slang and connotations due to it being space based, but the basic language, syntax, etc, is identical.


Nope. I think we can assume that the basic syntax and grammatical structure are very similar but...
DB 2: Phase World, Pg. 52 wrote:Trade Four: This language is clearly based on English/American. It has evolved enough to be different, however, with the addition of a number of technical terms, slang and foreign words (some of which are similar to other Earth languages like French, Chinese, Russian and Spanish). Normal English/American speakers automatically have Trade Four at 50% plus any LQ. bonuses and 5% per level of experience.

If a person from PW walks into Rifts North America or Heroes Unlimited U.S. people will know they are speaking a (if slightly) different language probably to the point that we could consider modern English (HU, BTS, etc.), Rifts American, and Trade 4 different dialects.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:...and Terran-Mand (Mandarin) which would be the most common. I am basing this on the description of Trade 4 so I am thinking I might include less common languages like Terran-Russk (Russian) and maybe something like Terran-Espa or Terran-Castil (Spanish). I'm still not clear on how much of human culture and language came through with Terrans from whichever earth they came from but I always assumed it was very little but I figure by the time of the CCW most Terran languages had been subsumed by Trade 4.


Rather, (as it is implied) its far more likely that Humans came through from wherever, and then fell to complete Barbarism before regaining technology and space travel. So they probably retain precisely nothing of their previous cultures.

First where is the climb from barbarism listed. In the timeline in DB 13 Fleets it says that humans crashed but prior to this it was always stated as just a possibility. I had always viewed this as a loss of technology but not knowledge so more like what we saw with the development of Humans on Novus in Stargate Universe. We know some knowledge of old earth culture remains due to quotes like this
DB 3: Phase World SB, Description of Magnum Plasma Cartridge Revolver on Pg. 52 wrote: These guns also appeal to some romantic humans who still remember the legends of the "Old West" from a time when humans still dwelt on the mythical planet Earth.

There are a few others like this in the first 3 books but that was the easiest to find.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:As for Trade 6 I would still like to figure out how old it is but for me I rarely use it anyway. Trade 1-5 are specific OCC skills for several OCCs but trade 6 not once so I just assume that it is largely an academic and diplomatic language.


Diplomatic, yes, to be sure, but still well-used precisely BECAUSE it is so universal.

Disagree, if this is what was intended wouldn't this be an OCC skill for someone? Anyone. Trade 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all listed as OCC skills for at least one OCC but Trade 6 not once.

Now if this was an early creation of the CCW, an attempt to create a CCW wide common tongue, then I would think each OCC would have two language skills, 1 is native with second being Trade 6. But, that isn't the case. Would be cool if it was though.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:As for age, if it was developed by the CCW, the best/easiest/KISS assumption is "not too much younger than the CCW itself". So, take the founding of the CCW, subtract ~30 years, and call it a day.

This does make it easier but makes no sense. Why would an organization consisting of two similar races (humans and noro) create a new language and why would any one care enough to learn some academic creation from a minor power. Which definitely describes the CCW of that time. The earliest I could see Trade 6 being created is 500 years ago after the first war.

You do bring up something that I had only barely considered, how long has any of these languages been in use? I mean humans have only been flying around for 5,000 years and the CCW is 700 so when did others start using Trade 4. It couldn't be before that as humans were still a local species fighting the AI wars. I would say Trade 4 did not change from a human language to a trade language much before 600 years ago based on the timeline in Fleets but that is pure supposition on my part.

Given the timelines we have I would say the oldest Trade 6 could be is about 400 years ago coming out of CCW expansion and the "Scramble" but I still think it is far newer maybe a century or two but I base this on nothing more than how long it takes for languages to spread IRL.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Warshield73 wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:See I tend to agree with you but there is nothing in the books that corroborate it. Now I put a lot of things in Rifts in general and PW in particular that are not in the books but I am trying to get the book stuff first. In the books all we have are a few For most of the OCC's a trade language is listed as the Native tongue not as an extra the way I would expect.

Some planets seem to be monocultures (wulfen and Oni come to mind)


No on the Wolfen, at the very least. There are huge Wolfen populations that were never part of the Wolfen Empire (something like 12% of the UWW is Wolfen, and UWW space was nowhere near the Wolfen Empire).

However, Trade Three (i think? might have the number wrong) IS their native language.


I didn't say anything about where they came from I called them a monoculture. This is true both in PW and PFRPG. In PFRPG there are I think 4 or more human languages but for Wolfen there is only 1. The same is true in PW. The Wolfen are described as basically a single, mono, cultural identity that has had very little in the way of variation that I have seen. Trade 3 is there language but it is not identical to Wolfen in PFRPG.


Damn, and now i want to explore in a game the subject of the actual place did the first Wolfen that speak Trade 3 as their native language originally came from. Or where they learned from other people and it superseded the Wolfen language of Palladium or whatever.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Warshield73 »

SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:I didn't say anything about where they came from I called them a monoculture. This is true both in PW and PFRPG. In PFRPG there are I think 4 or more human languages but for Wolfen there is only 1. The same is true in PW. The Wolfen are described as basically a single, mono, cultural identity that has had very little in the way of variation that I have seen. Trade 3 is there language but it is not identical to Wolfen in PFRPG.


Damn, and now i want to explore in a game the subject of the actual place did the first Wolfen that speak Trade 3 as their native language originally came from. Or where they learned from other people and it superseded the Wolfen language of Palladium or whatever.

Actually I brought this up in another forum post on Origin of Species on Palladium .

My underlying assumption is that unlike humans, that we know came from somewhere else, Motherhome is where Wolfen/Wulfen evolved (and probably Kancoran and coyles as well) and then they were transplanted by rifts to other worlds.

Again just an assumption but they have to come from somewhere.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Warshield73 wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:I didn't say anything about where they came from I called them a monoculture. This is true both in PW and PFRPG. In PFRPG there are I think 4 or more human languages but for Wolfen there is only 1. The same is true in PW. The Wolfen are described as basically a single, mono, cultural identity that has had very little in the way of variation that I have seen. Trade 3 is there language but it is not identical to Wolfen in PFRPG.


Damn, and now i want to explore in a game the subject of the actual place did the first Wolfen that speak Trade 3 as their native language originally came from. Or where they learned from other people and it superseded the Wolfen language of Palladium or whatever.

Actually I brought this up in another forum post on Origin of Species on Palladium .

My underlying assumption is that unlike humans, that we know came from somewhere else, Motherhome is where Wolfen/Wulfen evolved (and probably Kancoran and coyles as well) and then they were transplanted by rifts to other worlds.

Again just an assumption but they have to come from somewhere.


Doing a quick recheck on DB2:
- Trade-01 is the oldest language, of unknown origin and according to some claims, a creation of the First Race.

- Trade-02 is favored by telepathic races, also unknown origin. Telepaths/empaths have +20% bonus to learn Trade Two. Non-psychics have a -15% penalty. [As an aside, partly tempted as a joke to bring the Neuron Beasts or Mindolar as an elder race and long-lost creators of Trade-02. :twisted:]

- Trade-03 is indeed the same wolfen language as in PF, slightly streamlined to reduce the guttural and growling elements common to the "classical" Wolfen language, but is otherwise identical. [So either Motherhome is the world Palladium's Wolfen were extracted from or the world is simply the first place where wolfen from either Palladium or some other dimension/world were rifted into the3Gs-verse for the first time. Could go either way.]

- Trade-04 is is clearly based on English/American. It has evolved enough to be different, however, with the addition of a number of technical terms, slang and foreign words (some of which are similar to other Earth languages like French, Chinese, Russian and Spanish). [Strongly implying the humans from 3Gs were rifted from one among many parallel Earths]

- Trade-05 uses hisses, whistles and clicks for most words. It is favored by many reptilian and insectoid races. Humans and other air breathers can understand and learn Trade Five at no penalty, although they will retain a distinguishable "accent" that separates them from the races for which the language was originally created. Is commonly used by the kreeghor and seljuk races, and is usually the second language of the draconids. [that is hilarious on many levels because a crapload of animal species from insects to reptiles, mammals and birds actually hiss - in none of them it's supposed to communicate something beside "back off!!!" :-P ]

- Trade-06 is an artificial "universal language" made to maximize communication between the multiple varied species of the 3G by the CCW linguists, while mostly vocal it also has a strong sign language complementary component too.

Nice of the CCW's part and definitely makes sense considering the morass of star-nations that they are.
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Re: Trade languages, native languages and culture.

Unread post by Zenvis »

In my Phase World game I have Trade languages, regional languages, then planetary languages. This allows for Dragonese and Spluggorthian, Atlantian languages as they are spoken in a sector of space and not necessarily galaxy wide. I have my players choose one or two languages that are native to the sector and then go from there.
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