A couple clarifications...

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Re: A couple clarifications...

Unread post by Svartalf »

[quote="Tyciol"[/quote]

Given the very special nature of Tien Hsueh, I don't think that Erick slapped the Exclusive tag on it as an afterthought, and forgot to remove it from the "you can learn this form in a shorter time if this is your primary form" lists. I do assume that it's a true exception to the rule.
I also have trouble understanding what version of the game you play : in the current, so called revised version, your dedicated martial artist would not be able to take a second form after studying an exclusive one... yet you mention that only a dedicated one can study it, while in the early, un-f***g-revised version, a worldly martial artist (or just about anybody allowed to study anything more than just the *AGENT* forms would be allowed... even if only one.

I see rather well why neither the chun tzu nor the Weapon martial artist would be able ... or more likely interested, to study chi hsuan men : it is *not* a warrior's art . Weapon artists are interested in serious fighting : they got a choice of 5 arts : the 2 sword forms of Gui Long and Zanji Shinjinken, the "all combat weapons" form of Shi Ba Ban Wu Yi (take a look, they do specialize in war weapons, no itty bitty fans for them), the modern weapon form of Triad Assassin, and the, not really war oriented, but definitely concerned with serious, strong fighting form of Demon Fighting... I guess that they would regard iron fans as a "girly" weapon, unworthy of a true warrior. Similarly, Chun Tzu are students of the Art of War, and they orient themselves towards warrior arts, often comprehensive styles, not ones as specialized as Chi Hsuan Men. What this art is, is a Mandarin's style : a way of defending oneself effectively, even very much so, but for the learned classes, people who are basically non fighters and who want to hurt an enemy fast and disable him, even if he must play dirty, hence the use of such an inobvious weapon (and everyday fashion accessory) as the fan, and the specialization in atemi/tien Hsueh skills.

the availability of psionics depends largely on your game, but far as I know, Rifts is the only one where non specialists get a chance at having psionic powers, this is likely linked to the fact that mana is extra strong there, awaking powers that would have stayed dormant or required years of practice to awaken and master in a lower PPE world. While I never granted psionics to N&SS characters (especially since those that master such skills as chi or Zenjoriki would likely do so *instead* of psionics, I once ran a combined N&SS/BtS campaign in which psychic characters could learn martial arts, at the cost of one skill program for non Exclusive forms, two for an exclusive one, ninjutsu and Muay Thai counting as two were barred. As for the ability of psi powers in HU... I guess that if the system does not provide for characters having psi powers except of very special cases (natural psychics, latent ones, psychic aliens, and psionics as part of Mutant or Experimental powers), that's deliberate ; I'd assume the same about NightBane..

The 4 *AGENT* forms, are special cases : they are taught *instead* of a "real" martial art form to the great majority who do not have the gift, possibility, or dedication to learn one. they are neither primaries nor secondaries in the sense that they are in fact HTH skills rather than true MA forms, and are taught to OCCs that cannot learn a more serious form, but still must have *some* fighting ability.

About Immortality... you commit a little mistake : Hsien Hsia is *not* the only way to become an enlightened immortal. I've not checked Rifts China 1, but I know that there are a few of those mentioned there and I bet that none is a Hsien Hsia practitioner. What Hsien Hsia is, is a Confucian art based on Taoist teachings that focuses on internal alchemy and *purports* to be the one way to enlightened immortality. In fact, I think that chi oriented forms, that teach the control of the life force, are a much easier way to that goal. ... actually, long before MC was even a project, I came up with a concept of what I know interpret as an enlightened immortal : his forms were Shao Lin Kung Fu, Tai Chi Ch'uan and Snake Style (I created the character as the founder and Grandmaster of Snake Style, and one of the legendary five survivors of the slaughter of the Shao Lin monks, in 1745... a most useful NPC as he was a personally formidable foe, had his fingers in a lot of conspiracy and triad stuff... and he was one of the few men on earth able to cure a dim mak victim).

Similarly, the Tao Shih does *not* practic chi magic or any other kind of chi mastery. what he practices is Celestial Calligraphy... same results, but an entirely different road.
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Re: A couple clarifications...

Unread post by Svartalf »

Tyciol wrote:I
[
[
b]The Jian Shih are not very fixated on what's 'girly'. They are reluctant to enter combat as they wield deadly weapons. They are all skilled paramedics, and those who practise Gui Long have spent time caring for children and the elderly, and similarly, use Atemi like the Fan warriors. Besides, the Chi Hsuan Men can select Demon Hunter body hardening exercises at later levels, I'd hardly call that girly.[/b]

OK, my wrong, it's not a matter of machismo, still, the fan art is a scholar's "secret", last ditch or assassin's fighting art, not a warrior's way. and while Gui long practitioner, *know* some atemi, Fan Masters concentrate on that, being second only to Tien Hsueh touch masters and equals, if not better, than Aikido masters. ... a, oops... I was looking at my N&SS version, had not seen *that* change from MC..


I would hardly call Hsien Hsia a comprehensive style, and I'm quite sure the Chun Tzu would have nothing against using dirty tactics, all's fair in love and war.

Nope, of course it's not... pretty limited... but it's also one of the most philosophically/taoist oriented arts along with the likes of Ba Gua and Hsing I ... it's the philosopher Martial artist side, studying the inner arts. ... and I'm not sure that I agree with you. A Chun Tzu would feel it better to fight fair, even if some sacrifices to ethics must be made in the name of efficiency. He would not specialize in a technique that was *concentrating* on fighting dirty.

Rifts china is immaterial to this discussion.

I strongly disagree. It's another brainchild of Erick Wujcik and implements stuff that originates in N&SS. And when I said you were mistaken, I meant in your assumption that Hsien Hsia was *the only* path to becoming a Ti Hsien . and I'd say no, the description of Hsien Hsia says it's goal is immortality... but nowhere else is it mentioned that it's the only way. Heck, the art is not even mentioned on the section on immortals. my best guess is that the road to Enlightened Immortality, in true Taoist form, is full of whimsy and variation, and is certainly not wholly contained is such hidebound limits as those of Hsien Hsia. it"s *ONE* way... but not even necessarily the best. Also, given the "the Art is Perfect, Nothing Else is Needed" Attitude of Hsien Hsia masters, I doubt they'd accept students who came to them for anything but primary form training. If they did, I guess that the student would be browbeaten and overexercised into literally forgetting whatever he knew before.

Similarly, the Tao Shih does *not* practic chi magic or any other kind of chi mastery. what he practices is Celestial Calligraphy... same results, but an entirely different road.

While celestial calligraphy is different, as I had mentioned, it does still involve using chi in casting the spell into the paper. This counts as chi manipulation.

Sorry... you mistake the True Celestial Calligraphy used by the Tao Shih with the chi Magic spell of equivalent results. I stand by what I said earlier
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Svartalf - Flamboyantly Fresh Franco of Freedom Freakin' Fries : Shadyslug
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PC stands for "patronizing cretin" G'mo
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