Tien Hsueh Touch Mastery's Dim Mak

[Borast]

Anyone with the Tien-Hsueh automatically gains Dim Mak.

At least that is my understanding.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Tyciol.
Level 9 Advancements gives Dim Mak on a natural 18+. Would this only apply if the person had selected the atemi power?

Since Dim Mak isn't described in Mystic China, you have to fall back on N&S for information. In N&S it states that Tien Hsueh gets Dim Mak at 1st level automatically.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
Assuming it only works if they have the power, and is disregarded otherwise, what exactly does this mean? The wording of the power implies that all you need to do is hit the person to perform it. Does this mean that even if a person selects dim mak or long distance dim mak, they won't even be able to perform it until level 9?

Since it says "Dim Mak" I'd ignore the Long Distance variety for now. Just assume that Dim Mak requires a Natural 20 up until level 9.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
Considering that some of the other martial arts can select dim mak before that time, and do not require a natural role (or would it count as a death blow for them?), it would make Tien Hsueh, the inventor of the technique, weaker.

Chi Hsuan Men is the only style that gets Dim Mak before 9th level (7th level to be exact.). Just assume once again that Dim Mak requires a Natural 20 to be successful.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
I find it somewhat funny that a Tien Hsueh could select long distance dim mak without needing the original dim mak as well.

Since they are two totally different things, it's no big deal.

Or you could just ignore the "Dim Mak on a Natural 18+" and change it to "Critical Strike on a Natural 18+" which is what it was originally.

[Svartalf]

Or you could just ignore the "Dim Mak on a Natural 18+" and change it to "Critical Strike on a Natural 18+" which is what it was originally.

I go with Mantisking there... I'd bet my sweet ass and my pecker with it that this is one, big, nasty misprint. the martial art form level advancement bonus tables are riddled with them (actually, I wonder if there are not even some more in Revised N&SS than in earlier printings), so I wouldn't be surprised if some had slipped into the MC tables (I've not analyzed them, or compared those that can to their main book relatives so I can't tell).

so we go back to day one : Tien Hsueh touch masters get dim mak from level 1, and they need only a successful fingertip strike (not parried, dodged, or rolled with) to apply it. The other forms that may learn dim mak abide by the same rules. Jujutsu practitioners who learn dim mak learn a variant of the fingertip attack especially for the purpose of delivering it (normally jujutsu does not have that attack). I'd also say that chi hsuan men masters who learn dim mak can also deliver it with a fan blow (feels weird to think of one putting his fan aside, even for the specific purpose of delivering utter, long term destruction to a foe... also, somebody he attacked that way might know it's abnormal for him to act that way).

Last but not least, I'd rule that no one can learn long distance dim mak if he does not know normal dim mak first.

a wee little detail that escapes me happens to be relevant here : does anyone remember at what rate a dim mak victim loses his chi, or where that amount is stated?

[Svartalf]

As for replacing it with a critical strike, that does make a lot of sense. However, Mystic China's quite clear that they have to select Dim Mak as a power, which is okay, it takes into account those masters who wish to focus on arts of invisibility or chi powers rather than atemi. Plus the MC version allows you to get 2 atemis instead of zenjoriki, making it the atemi master art.

As for performing atemi attacks with weapons: yes. As long as the atemi doesn't specify that you need to use a certain kind of attack (like the blood-flow fist) then you can use a weapon attack, after all the whole idea of a weapon kata is that you can combine it with all other moves in the martial art. *cackles* It's too bad you can't combine a weapon kata with any of the other katas though... windmill kata with a bo staff would be interesting.

replacing a dim mak attack with a critcal strike, make sense? well... once you put huge restrictions on who can have it (only 4 forms give access, and 3 of those at high level only), and saying that success in any defence against that attack foils it... if you intend to make the attack well nigh useless, then it makes sense to *also* require the strike to be a critical success... (sigh) . but I still go with my misprint idea, on grounds that this dim mak on 18 or better in MC replaces, and does not add to the former critical on 18 or better from N&SS.

of course... there might be a conjuration among certain palladium circles to make dim mak even rarer than originally intended, and to weaken Tien Hsueh : in N&SS, the description make of dim mak clearly stated that it is "available to characters with the Tien Hsueh martial art form automatically". the inclusion of dim mak in Tien Hsueh special attacks rather than the available powers did not leave much ambiguity to the fact that *all* practitioners of the form knew the secrets of dim mak (and why not... they are a very closed circle of no more than de dozen people who know the full secrets of the form, and it took them 20 years to learn). the originall edition stated that a Tien Hsueh master could choose 4 powers ; the revised one reduced that to 3 ; and now MC , keeping that number of 3 states that for a Touch Master to know Dim Mak he has to select it... makes you wonder.

BTW Tien Hsueh has always been *the* atemi form : the name is what the Japanese translated by "atemi".

As for the "blood flow" atemi needing to be performe by hand... I don't agree : a character who has weapon kata *and* the proper type of attack in his form should be able to adapt the weapon attack to perform the atemi, this should be especially true when the weapon kata is an integral part of the form, like the fan for chi hsuan men. and are you sure it does say you can't go into a special kata while wielding weapons for which you know the kata? I mean, your idea of a wind mill kata with staff strikes me as perfectly logical... especially from an Isshin ryu pactitioner... and do you think an Isshin Ryu master drops his staff to perform a bassai kata? Fat chance I say... he practices his art with his weapon, and adds the effect of the special kata to the combination

[Svartalf]

well, my dear Tyciol...

I fear we have stumbled on a major case of divergence in interpretation of the rules. forbidding a chi hsuan men practitioner from applying dim mak or blood flow atem with his fan, or an Isshin Ryû adept from going into Bassai (or any other) kata with his staff strikes me as perfectly absurd... and if *they* can do it, why not others, provided you monitored what is logical and what is pure munchkinism...

so I'll still go my way and wish I'm never GM'd by you while in a situation where we diverge (there again... Fat Chance... even if I were ready to move and endure Canadian winters, you'd never see me the wrong side of the Outaouais)

[Svartalf]

Who says they can? GMing.

I say they do... and the mere fact that Isshin Ryû is a specifically staff oriented form with the Bassai kata necessarily among the practitioner's abilities is enough to tell me that I'm right. I grant that my ruling comes from interpretation of the books, rather than applying them as expressly stated, but the fact that I would feel silly if I tried going the other way (ruling that weapon forms are incompatible with other special katas, or making a chi hsuan men adept go bare hand for anything) and make a player comply is enough to make me feel that this is rightful interpretation and not a "house rule" (I also use some of those, and I know where I swerve away from strict application of The Rulez) ... now, if we could have Mr Wujcik or some other official mouthpiece give an Advice from the Designers... maybe I'd change my mind if the judgment went against me

[Svartalf]

I never said I liked it, I think weapons should be usable with special katas too, thus my using the word 'unfortunately'.

personnally, I put it on poor editing for not precising that "weapon kata" are a special case

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Tyciol.
Dim Mak guys can't regenerate any chi they lose, and I think there were rules SOMEWHERE for losing a little bit each week until they ran out and couldn't heal and got sick... but I can't remember where.

It just says "gradually". It didn't give any rules for depletion.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
As for replacing it with a critical strike, that does make a lot of sense. However, Mystic China's quite clear that they have to select Dim Mak as a power, which is okay, it takes into account those masters who wish to focus on arts of invisibility or chi powers rather than atemi. Plus the MC version allows you to get 2 atemis instead of zenjoriki, making it the atemi master art.

We're not saying that they should drop Dim Mak. We're just saying you should remove the limitation of the Natural target number.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
As for performing atemi attacks with weapons: yes. As long as the atemi doesn't specify that you need to use a certain kind of attack (like the blood-flow fist) then you can use a weapon attack, after all the whole idea of a weapon kata is that you can combine it with all other moves in the martial art.

There are several weapons designed with small points to specifically hit atemi points and, there are stories of masters using weapons to hit atemi points. So it's not too far a stretch that I wouldn't allow it.

[Guest]

dim mak with a nodachi..k

lemme try...

ah heck with it

*cleaves my intended victim in half*

btw, FFXI is digital crack, be very wary...i have put nearly 10 hours of gameplay in over two months and i am ALMOST a samurai (just a few more lvls til i can unlock it)

but oh will it be worth it, killing stuff with a huge katana as an anime inspired cat chick....joy!

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by macksting.
However, for various reasons, it may be very difficult. For instance, you may need to become sufficiently skilled with the weapon that it becomes, in essence, an extension of your hand.

Saaaayy, like with a Weapon Kata?

Originally posted by macksting.
Of course, some weapons just can't do that, I don't think. I challenge anybody do deal an effective Dim Mak with a nodachi.

Poke the atemi point with the tip of the sword.

[Svartalf]

get real Mantis.

Weapon kata is only the BEGINNING of mastering a weapon well enough to use atemi with it. It's more like the obsession you find with swords in Zanji Shinjinken Ryu, or staves with Isshin Ryu (of course, you can always get a Grand master of weapons form like Moo Gi Gong or Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi)

and if you can nudge an atemi point in the foe with an O dachi... why not just run him through properly?

[Svartalf]

I rule out using sharp objects to deal atemi blows... hitting strong enough would pierce the target and defeat the purpose. sai are one of the best extended reach atemi tools I can think of, blunt but small tip for optimum accuracy

[Svartalf]

well.... I wonder if dim mak, being so special and chi disruptive beyond the mere nerve strike, personal contact is not necessary...

Anyway, if you have an O dachi, and are skilled enough with it to inflict atemi... you're a fortiori skilled enough to kill your foe with it without needing the dim mak

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by svartalf.
get real Mantis.

But, I am real. Are you trying to tell me I'm a figment of someone's imagination?

Originally posted by svartalf.
Weapon kata is only the BEGINNING of mastering a weapon well enough to use atemi with it. It's more like the obsession you find with swords in Zanji Shinjinken Ryu, or staves with Isshin Ryu (of course, you can always get a Grand master of weapons form like Moo Gi Gong or Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi)

A Weapon Kata allows you to use a weapon with the usual moves and bonuses of the style. Not being able to use it for Atemi would be sort of silly.

Originally posted by svartalf.
and if you can nudge an atemi point in the foe with an O dachi... why not just run him through properly?

Because maybe your opponent happens to be your mind-controlled friend and you don't want to kill him.

Originally posted by svartalf.
I rule out using sharp objects to deal atemi blows... hitting strong enough would pierce the target and defeat the purpose. sai are one of the best extended reach atemi tools I can think of, blunt but small tip for optimum accuracy.

I've accidentally been hit by a sword tip in a nerve point. Yes, the sword tip was slightly blunt but it was small enough to hit the target.

Originally posted by macksting.
Still, Push Open Hand is still an unarmed attack even if Tai Chi Chu'an is well suited to the use of a sword, and probably even if you have the Martial Art Technique Sword Chi or what-have-you (I don't have a copy of Mystic China on hand.) (Of course, Tai Chi doesn't seem to get Martial Art Techniques, but that's beside the point.)

A sword for P.O.H. might not make much sense, but how about a shield?

Originally posted by svartalf.
My trouble with the nodachi is that it's huge and not particularly graceful. The same degree of practice from the same martial artist in the use of a weapon of less gross scale would be considerably more dextrous in the application of a combat move. I would not expect a massive or unwieldy weapon to be able to deliver the same precision per skill level as a smaller, simpler weapon such as the sai, jitte, tonto or jo staff.

If you feel a nodachi is too unweildy, impose a penalty on the attempt.

Originally posted by svartalf.
well.... I wonder if dim mak, being so special and chi disruptive beyond the mere nerve strike, personal contact is not necessary.

No, contact is quite neccesary.

Originally posted by svartalf.
Anyway, if you have an O dachi, and are skilled enough with it to inflict atemi... you're a fortiori skilled enough to kill your foe with it without needing the dim mak.

Maybe you want them to slowly wither away, all the while wondering what happened. (Didn't we use to have an evil looking smiley?)

Originally posted by Tyciol.
Long Range Dim Mak doesn't require any physical contact at all, so channeling it through your weapon isn't much of a stretch.

The "phone call" version doesn't require contact. The "in clear sight" version requires you be within 100 feet and touching a common surface.

Long Distance Dim Mak really should be a Zenjorike. It's got nothing in common with the other Atemi.

Originally posted by Tyciol.
It's not a major concern anyway, the only arts I know that have both atemi and any sort of weapon kata is the fan one, and Gui Long Kung Fu.

Bok Pai, Jujutsu, Kalaripayit, and Kodokan Judo all have Atemi Abilities and Special Kata for MAP.