Firearms damage - Skorpion SMG

Nekira Sudacne · Sat May 22, 2004 5:21 pm

it does 1d8 sub machine gun. however, .32 A.C.P. (7.65mm) is what revised N&SS says

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Sun May 23, 2004 6:47 am

.32 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) and
7.65 Browning

ARE the SAME thing, just American vs. European terminology.

Given that 2D6 seems to be the default standard for 9x19mm which is MUCH more powerful than the .32 ACP, and that there are at least two other major cartridges in between, .380 ACP/9x17mm and 9x18mm Makarov as well as others, I would NOT allow .32 ACP to do 2D6. 1D8 or even 2D4 would be fine. I mean, the .32 ACP is more powerful than a .22LR (but not as pwoerful as .22 Mag). You could say 1D8 from a pistol and 2D4 from an SMG for the longer barrell, potentially more potent propellent charge in loadings meant for SMG's and the multiple strike potential.

Just so you know they do make the Skorpion in 9x17mm, 9x18 Makarov, and 9x19mm. I have handled a few in the various calibers during my travels in Europe and the semi-autos were available in the US. I am personally very unimpressed with them. Their only interesting feature is the rate reducer in the grip. They eject out the top BTW, which is ambidextrious in that is equally bad for righties and lefties.

I definitely feel that there shoudl be a damage bonus for firing a pistol round from a subgun or carbine platform, that is after all part of the whole point of their existence IRL. OTOH, I am also for REDUCING damage or range or both for rifle rounds fired from carbines or SGM sized guns.

BTW, the actual original design intent and mission of the Skorpion made it one of the very firts PDW type weapons.

Tsh77769

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Mon May 24, 2004 9:59 pm

Yeah, that's how I would do it.

tsh77769

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Mon May 24, 2004 10:04 pm

BTW, IRL, and original German made Walther PP in 7.65/.32ACP is a collectable gun and last I knew was worth around $350.

Tsh77769

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:59 pm

Of course, in some Palladium Books the 9 mm now does 3D6 damage.

I think the damage done by most firearms has crept up over the 2nd Edding of the SDC stuff, probably because players tend to have more HP and SDC now than they once did.

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Thu May 27, 2004 8:02 am

You are right they do sometimes list 3D6 for 9mm (I noticed this for the first time years ago in the weapons compendium under the "Volkspistol") but in the vast majority of the cases it is still 2D6. Thus, in accordance with my previously stated thoughts on the matter, I generally( there are exceptions) say 2D6 from a pistol and 3D6 from a subgun/carbine.

Tsh77769

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:48 pm

Editing error.

Afterall in the CMW there's an assault rifle that does 5D6 in full length configuration, but only 1D6 in short barreled configuration.

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:03 pm

YES. A typical pistol barrell is between 3-5 inches and an UZI barrell is around 10 inches. So you are talking about anywhere from 100% more barrel to 300% more barrell. It makes a HUGE difference.

A 9mm out of a pistol is a 9mm out of a pistol, but a 9mm out of a SMG is starting to knock on the door of .357 Mag (out of a 3-5" revolver) performance level.

tsh77769

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:06 pm

Here's a thought, a SMG chambered in .357 Magnum

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:48 pm

I'm not angry at all. I merely used the all caps on the yes for emphasis, as in positively, absolutely, definitely, for sure, YES, it makes a difference.

I very very rarely get angry and certainly not over message board stuff.

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:02 am

BTW, you want to see an absolutely AMAZING combination, check out the 10mm Auto cartridge and the HK MP510. I had the opportunity to run one through a certification course but chose the UZI instead because I was planning to go to Israel and needed to know how to run an UZI as they are abundant there.

The 10mm Auto is MORE powerful but with LESS muzzle flash and blast in ALL platforms (pistol, SMG, carbine) than the .357 Mag (and less recoil than then the .357 mag in a revolver, but this is more due to weapon mechanics than anything else). It is a more efficient cartridge. All the same projectile weights, equal or greater velocity and greater initial diameter.

The best pistol platform for the 10mm Auto currently is the Glock 20. The best SMG or carbine platform is the HKMP510 or an AR15.

The 10mm has consistently been under rated.

RoadWarriorFWaNK · Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:05 am

what's the damage for a 10mm round? like...in a game?
and what kind of guns can fire it, besides the Glock 20?

tsh77769 · Unread post by **tsh77769** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:35 am

I think palladium list it as doing 4D6, the same damage as a .45 ACP, this is laughable.

tsh77769

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:35 pm

7.62 mm (AKA .30 calibre) is one of the world's msot popular weapon dimensions. There are a vareity of differne bullet and cartridge configurations ranging from subsonic pistol rounds to high velocity rifle ammunition that are 7.62 mm in diameter. Some of the more popular ones include:

7.62 Tokarev: This is a former soviet pistol and submachinegun round, short on power and accuracy. On the plus side it's small so you can carry a lot of ammunition. On the down side, you'll probaly need it. Useful out to about 40 meters in a pistol and 100 meters in a submachinegun.

7.62 Soviet: This is the infamous AK-47's primary diet. The cartridge case is 39 mm long, giving the bullet a substantial boost in oomph over pistol ammunition. In an assault rifle, this round is effective out to about 300 m. In a light machinegun or sniper rifle (Iraq made a few sniper rifles for this cartridge) it's dangerous out to about 500 m

7.62 NATO: This round is the standard 7.62 round for NATO rifles and machineguns. The cartridge is 51 mm long, making it much more powerful than the 7.62 Soviet. This round is effective in assault rifles out to about 600 m, but it's high force causes a lot of recoil so sustained bursts with an assault rifle are difficult to control. his round is more typically used in sniper rifles and machineguns, which can make this round useful at ranges of up to 1000 m. This is the round in the M-60.

7.62x54R: Another russian bullet. It first appeared in the late 1800's and has since been used in Moison Nagant Rifles, PK Machineguns and the SVD Dragunov. It's broadly equivalent in capability to 7.62 NATO in every measure.

.30 Carbine: This is a short round, like the 7.62 Soviet, and the capabilities are broadly similar. It was developed for the M-1 Carbine used by the Amerians in the Second World War.

.30-06: This was the standard American rifle and machinegun bullet until after the Second World War. It's still a popular hunting round. When NATO standardized it's rifle calibres, the Americans tried to force them to use the .30-06, but after much debate, the compromise 7.62 NATO was developed. The .30-06 is more powerful than the 7.62 NATO, but is still broadly equivalent in ability. The M-1 Garand Rifle is the most famous weapon for this round.

RoadWarriorFWaNK · Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:14 pm

it would just do damage to the armor's SDC, right? this is still a game, right?

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:07 pm

7.62 Tokarev = 7.62 x 26
7.62 Soviet = 7.62 x 39
7.62 NATO = 7.65 x 51 = .308
7.62x54R
.30 Carbine = 7.62 x 33
.30-06 = 7.62 x 63

There's also the .300 Winchester Magnum which is 7.62 x 66 and the .300 Weatherby Magnum which is 7.62 x 72

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:58 am

Originally posted by macksting.
Is that the lengths of the respective bullets?

No, it's the lengths of the cases holding the propellant and projectile.

Originally posted by macksting.
Does it have any bearing on armor penetration, btw?

Nope.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:48 pm

Mantisking wrote:
Originally posted by macksting.
Is that the lengths of the respective bullets?
No, it's the lengths of the cases holding the propellant and projectile.

Originally posted by macksting.
Does it have any bearing on armor penetration, btw?
Nope.

But as a general rule, a longer case means a heavier bullet propelled by a larger charge. This means the bullet hits harder and is more likely to punch through armour. There are always exceptions though.

Mantisking · Unread post by **Mantisking** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:14 am

Originally posted by Macksting.
Sadly, it doesn't tell me what I'd like to know regarding ceramic hard armour and the 5.56 light machinegun, but it sounds like there's also no arguments.

Taken from DefenseReview.com

Pinnacle Armor, out of Fresno, California, is currently producing some of the most advanced soft and hard armor solutions in the world. This includes Pinnacle's flexible body armor systems/ballistic vests, which employ a combination of highly advanced ballistic ceramic technology and ballistic fiber technology.

The Pinnacle Armor SOV-1000 and SOV-2000 flexible body armor system vests are particularly interesting. They feature something called DRAGON SKIN®. DRAGON SKIN® is basically level III flexible hard armor that consists of silver dollar-sized (perhaps slightly larger) circular ballistic ceramic discs that are configured like scales (think fish or snake) over a given area. Pinnacle SOV ballistic vests can be...

custom configured in terms of the area of coverage. If someone needs complete front, rear, and side protection over the entire area of the vest, Pinnacle Armor can provide this to them. If the customer wants level III protection on the front and sides, with just level IIIa protection on the back of the vest, they can do that to. The customer can also have level III front and rear protection with level IIIa on the shoulder straps and sides. Any combination/configuration is possible.

So, what kind of threats can the SOV-1000 and SOV-2000 flexible body armor systems (level III) protect against? This is from the Pinnacle Armor website:

"The MIL-STD SOV-1000 and 2000 Level III flexible body armor systems will defeat the following rifle rounds that normally fall into the Level IV category, and all lesser threats.

7.62 x 39 mm 125 GR, steel case mild steel core - 2300 - 2700 fps.
5.56 x 45 mm 65 GR, M855 (SS109 Green tip) - 3250 - 3900 fps."

According to Pinnacle, their level III vests are not the same as other manufacturers' level III vests. Pinnacle likes to significantly exceed the NIJ standard at all protection levels, with all of its products.

The Core Technology:
Pinnacle's advanced ballistic ceramic discs are extremely high-tech. They're not just ceramic. They're actually composed of advanced ceramic composite matrixes and laminates that can incorporate other materials (like titanium, for instance). There's even a lighter-weight metal (than titanium) that Pinnacle Armor is now combining with ceramic that we will not disclose, which offer's a superior level of performance/weight ratio to titanium.

Pinnacle Armor's most advanced ballistic armor/ballistic ceramic vests will defeat 7.62x51mm AP rounds, like the Winchester/Olin .308 SLAP (Saboted Light Armour-Penetrating) round, which utilizes a tungsten sabot bullet. This particular level of protection will only be available to military end-users. This special level IV armor is actually not quite available, yet. However, it's expected to be ready for U.S. military use in the first quarter of 2005. Understand that we're talking about Pinnacle Armor's unique version of level IV body armor/protection, not your standard, run-of-the-mill NIJ level IV protection. DefRev will also not disclose what combination of ballistic fibers Pinnacle Armor is using in their vests.

Checking the company website, the armor weighs between 16.8 to 18.5 pounds.

taken from GlobalSecurity.org

Interceptor Body Armor
Interceptor Multi-Threat Body Armor System is made up of two modular components: the outer tactical vest and small-arms protective inserts, or plates. The new body armor, which is unisex, is equipped with removable throat and groin protectors, as well as front and back removable plates, which can stop 7.62 mm rounds. It weighs 16.4 pounds; each of the two inserts weighs 4 pounds, and the outer tactical vest weighs 8.4 pounds. The previous body armor, the flak jacket, weighed 25.1 pounds.

The outer tactical vest consists of a Kevlar weave that's very fine and will stop 9mm pistol rounds. Webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching such equipment as grenades, walkie-talkies and pistols. The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material. It stops, shatters and catches any fragments up to a 7.62 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second. It's harder than Kevlar.

The Interceptor body armor's lighter weight provides more mobility than the older flak vest. The new armor also has an outer tactical vest made of Kevlar weave that's capable of stopping a 9 mm bullet, plus the webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching other small pieces of equipment. The small-arms protective inserts are made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material.

Here's a chart that has the current NIJ standards.
http://www.policefirerescue.com/nij_chart.html

Remember, Google is your friend.