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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:41 am
  

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We all know that the assassination of the ██████ is a no-no. However where do you draw the line, more "morally" than "legally" so.

So lets do this on a simple scale of 1 - 10, how distasteful the following assassination stories are

1: Your nation's highest executive, by name

2: Your nation's highest executive, but not named, but implied to be the current person

3: Your nation's highest executive, explicitly a fictitious entity.



4: Another nation's highest executive, by name

5: Another nation's highest executive, but not named, but implied to be the current person

6: Another nation's highest executive, explicitly a fictitious entity.

--- Sub Question ---
Would it matter if your nation was currently in conflict with the other nation?


7: Other Government Official [Regardless of nationality], by name

8: Other Government Official [Regardless of nationality], but not named, only given a title.

9: Other Government Official [Regardless of nationality], explicitly a fictitious entity.


10: A celebrity by name


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:17 am
  

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Who cares it is a game?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:36 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Who cares it is a game?

Ditto

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:08 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:43 am
  

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I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:30 am
  

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Has there ever been a line? I remember the TV show Time Trax having an assassin try to kill a lookalike of Bill Clinton in the same month he was inaugurated. That was TV, in a game I have never seen a problem. Ultimate X-Men comics had GW Bush licking Magneto's boots.

Now, I think it's more fun to create fictional President, like what 24 does, but that is just preference.

Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

I disagree. I think that if you do this right it lends a lot of realism in the game. I think the problem becomes not when there is a plot to kill or harm a person from real world but when you have that person doing something horrible that they haven't done in real life.

A plot to kill the current President that your heroes need to thwart, OK. The current President conducting a program of mass genocide that your heroes must stop, very bad.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:42 am
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:20 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!

I heard that if you say bomb three times in a row while playing an RPG the RPG Secret Service comes and investigates you.

Hey RPG police... wait dont they wear Fez? ;)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:24 pm
  

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I heard if you steal a car in a video game it makes you a criminal or if you go around assassinating historical figures because their part of some giant conspiracy about templars and free will, that your a horrible person AND the video FBI will use a digital battering ram on your door.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:37 pm
  

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Seriously the flow is determined by the GM and players. I would refuse however if my players were super PC to act as such. I haven't had anyone quit for that reason yet. One quit because I wasnt being realistic ("a spec ops group doesnt fly themselves in leave the aircraft and perform the mission, they have someone else fly them in." I dont care it's a game and in most heroic stories the group will have a means of transport that they manage themselves), another quit because he found a religion and said he started seeing demons (more likely his drug use). Most, faded due to PCSing or moving (same thing different lives).

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BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

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Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:48 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!

I heard that if you say bomb three times in a row while playing an RPG the RPG Secret Service comes and investigates you.

Hey RPG police... wait dont they wear Fez? ;)

Why yes, the RPG police do wear fezes! You must only know that because you've been stopped by them before. Hmmm... why am I not surprised... Hahahahaha

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:50 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

I tend to agree.
My reasoning is that very few game worlds have the same set up as our world anyway. Thus its easier to just say that I have President Jones instead of Obama or Trump. That way even if they do stuff similar to Obama or Trump I dont have to try and assume how those people would act about super powers, or their views on magic or anything.
It also helps to not 'dehumanitize' the real people. I have had experiances with people in games who were eager to take out agressions on 'proxies' of real people... that doesnt seem healthy and I left those games rather quickly.

To me its an area where things can get really touchy quickly, and the biggest issue is that since its a group activity even if one person is offended they are often unwilling to say anything because they dont want to be 'that guy' who is ruining the fun for everyone else. Thus, I think the simplest solution is to simply not engage in needlessly touchy situations like assasinating real world figures, on the theory that since I am not a telepath I can't know what my players really think, just what they are willing to say as part of the groupthink.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:20 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.


Agreed.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:22 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!

I heard that if you say bomb three times in a row while playing an RPG the RPG Secret Service comes and investigates you.

Hey RPG police... wait dont they wear Fez? ;)

Why yes, the RPG police do wear fezes! You must only know that because you've been stopped by them before. Hmmm... why am I not surprised... Hahahahaha


Lol
Yeah I was J reading across the street

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:29 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:50 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.

Super crazy. What country?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:55 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.


There's also the time that GURPS had their computers seized by the US Secret Service because they thought it had something to do with cyber-terrorism.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:30 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.


Agreed.


So no Hitler
Mao
Stalin

You time travel back to 1930 so you can kill Mitler and stop WWII before... :roll:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:25 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.

Super crazy. What country?


Canada.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:49 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.

Super crazy. What country?


Canada.


Gee and they say our police are bad :nh:

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BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:17 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.


Agreed.


So no Hitler
Mao
Stalin

You time travel back to 1930 so you can kill Mitler and stop WWII before... :roll:

If they were still alive? Yes
Thus Lincoln is fine, Obama is not, Reagan would be questionable.
But if you are talking at your game about playing out the killing of the current president? Yeah, that is totally unacceptable.

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:27 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.


Agreed.


So no Hitler
Mao
Stalin

You time travel back to 1930 so you can kill Mitler and stop WWII before... :roll:

If they were still alive? Yes
Thus Lincoln is fine, Obama is not, Reagan would be questionable.
But if you are talking at your game about playing out the killing of the current president? Yeah, that is totally unacceptable.

Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:18 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Jack Burton wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.


Agreed.


So no Hitler
Mao
Stalin

You time travel back to 1930 so you can kill Mitler and stop WWII before... :roll:

If they were still alive? Yes
Thus Lincoln is fine, Obama is not, Reagan would be questionable.
But if you are talking at your game about playing out the killing of the current president? Yeah, that is totally unacceptable.

Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

I stand by the statement that it is, by its nature, over the line.
The question was asked and I provided what I believe is the appropriate answer.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:26 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

I stand by the statement that it is, by its nature, over the line.
The question was asked and I provided what I believe is the appropriate answer.

I think this is what it comes down to. If any person in the group finds it uncomfortable or unacceptable then you don't do it.

I guess I am also misunderstanding the OP. I thought that it was an assassination story. NPCs have or are trying to kill Person X. I don't see a problem with that. Now if you are talking about the PC's killing Person X, that is more than a little strange.

I still think what is worse then a plot to kill is when you take a real person and have them doing some evil deed that they don't do in real life. I have never done this but I have been playing in convention games when the GM had a real life politician doing something horrible that went along with her politics and the table seemed to really split with the rest of the game being very uncomfortable.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:50 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

I stand by the statement that it is, by its nature, over the line.
The question was asked and I provided what I believe is the appropriate answer.

I think this is what it comes down to. If any person in the group finds it uncomfortable or unacceptable then you don't do it.

I guess I am also misunderstanding the OP. I thought that it was an assassination story. NPCs have or are trying to kill Person X. I don't see a problem with that. Now if you are talking about the PC's killing Person X, that is more than a little strange.

I still think what is worse then a plot to kill is when you take a real person and have them doing some evil deed that they don't do in real life. I have never done this but I have been playing in convention games when the GM had a real life politician doing something horrible that went along with her politics and the table seemed to really split with the rest of the game being very uncomfortable.

Ya, I agree that it's not a good idea to make a real politician the bad guy. That will only serve to upset half of the table, like you said. If an actual politician is the victim who must be saved from imminent peril, that's completely different, I believe. Anyone can be a victim through no fault of their own. I personally would not have a problem playing in a Heroes Unlimited game and being tasked with saving Trump, Obama, a Clinton, a Bush, etc. Attaching a real name of to the NPC my group is trying to save adds to the realism and excitement of the mission. Like the person or not, you KNOW them, or at least their public persona. That adds to the sense of urgency one has when trying to save a Pres. Trump or Pres. Obama. The game would have a pretty generic and bland feel if you're trying to save Pres. Melendez or Senator Arbogast (made up people).

But like everything in the Megaverse, do what your group wants to do and have fun. This is just my opinion which quite frankly, doesn't mean diddly.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:14 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

I stand by the statement that it is, by its nature, over the line.
The question was asked and I provided what I believe is the appropriate answer.

I think this is what it comes down to. If any person in the group finds it uncomfortable or unacceptable then you don't do it.

I guess I am also misunderstanding the OP. I thought that it was an assassination story. NPCs have or are trying to kill Person X. I don't see a problem with that. Now if you are talking about the PC's killing Person X, that is more than a little strange.

I still think what is worse then a plot to kill is when you take a real person and have them doing some evil deed that they don't do in real life. I have never done this but I have been playing in convention games when the GM had a real life politician doing something horrible that went along with her politics and the table seemed to really split with the rest of the game being very uncomfortable.


Agree on all points

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:23 am
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Unacceptable to whom? You or your group?

I stand by the statement that it is, by its nature, over the line.
The question was asked and I provided what I believe is the appropriate answer.

I think this is what it comes down to. If any person in the group finds it uncomfortable or unacceptable then you don't do it.

I guess I am also misunderstanding the OP. I thought that it was an assassination story. NPCs have or are trying to kill Person X. I don't see a problem with that. Now if you are talking about the PC's killing Person X, that is more than a little strange.

I still think what is worse then a plot to kill is when you take a real person and have them doing some evil deed that they don't do in real life. I have never done this but I have been playing in convention games when the GM had a real life politician doing something horrible that went along with her politics and the table seemed to really split with the rest of the game being very uncomfortable.

Ya, I agree that it's not a good idea to make a real politician the bad guy. That will only serve to upset half of the table, like you said. If an actual politician is the victim who must be saved from imminent peril, that's completely different, I believe. Anyone can be a victim through no fault of their own. I personally would not have a problem playing in a Heroes Unlimited game and being tasked with saving Trump, Obama, a Clinton, a Bush, etc. Attaching a real name of to the NPC my group is trying to save adds to the realism and excitement of the mission. Like the person or not, you KNOW them, or at least their public persona. That adds to the sense of urgency one has when trying to save a Pres. Trump or Pres. Obama. The game would have a pretty generic and bland feel if you're trying to save Pres. Melendez or Senator Arbogast (made up people).

But like everything in the Megaverse, do what your group wants to do and have fun. This is just my opinion which quite frankly, doesn't mean diddly.


This is likely the main reason most modern games seem as if there is no government. Besides even IRL they're pretty much ghost figures for the most part. Far away from most of us and we just see them in pictures and are told second hand stories about what they do.

What about a HU game where little rocket man is getting ready to nuke Japan? Maybe Putin has decided to invade Europe. Things they're likely to do. Would those be acceptable villainizations of real world personalities?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:41 am
  

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I'd demonize those guys in a heartbeat. I was talking about American or allied politicians.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:34 pm
  

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I'd still not prefer to use real world people in games, especially if the plot involves doing them harm or casting them as a villain.

I don't have profound spiritual beliefs as such, but I do think that somehow, someway, the universe keeps tabs on who wishes ill of who.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:44 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I'd still not prefer to use real world people in games, especially if the plot involves doing them harm or casting them as a villain.

I don't have profound spiritual beliefs as such, but I do think that somehow, someway, the universe keeps tabs on who wishes ill of who.

Can't argue with that.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:18 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
I'd still not prefer to use real world people in games, especially if the plot involves doing them harm or casting them as a villain.

I don't have profound spiritual beliefs as such, but I do think that somehow, someway, the universe keeps tabs on who wishes ill of who.

I would just like to make a small aside here as an example.
The Rifts books are pretty good at avoiding discussing Christianity from a game stand point. We don't get divine stats for priests, or anything. All very well and good since Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions on Earth and the chances are pretty darn high that you will have an adherent of one of them at your table.
So far so good.
Now... Pantheons of the Megaverse though has no problem with the Hindu Pantheon. It distorts it, holds up the worst western stereotypes and tropes and basically turns it into a 2-D caricature...
...which made it rather awkward to explain to a couple of my players in one of my games why that was... see they were Hindu's, followers of the worlds third largest Religion and they were rather curious as to why the game we were playing was saying all these hateful and untrue things about their faith. Oops? The result is that when I game I simply have the gods be "beyond stats" and 'distant and uninvolved'. Priests and such are powered as much by faith as by the gods and I don't worry about issues like "is this god real? Or that one? nor do I have to do comparative theology to settle who is who or what influences what.

For the same reason my HU world always has different politicians. This is because that way I don't have to be putting words in someone's mouth. I can safely have my US government pass laws restricting the rights of metahumans in 1964 with out blaming Lyndon B Johnson or claiming that he was a bigot. I can have the current administration do something, again with out claiming that the actual real world president (or the people in his administration) are like that.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:06 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I'd still not prefer to use real world people in games, especially if the plot involves doing them harm or casting them as a villain.

I don't have profound spiritual beliefs as such, but I do think that somehow, someway, the universe keeps tabs on who wishes ill of who.

I would just like to make a small aside here as an example.
The Rifts books are pretty good at avoiding discussing Christianity from a game stand point. We don't get divine stats for priests, or anything. All very well and good since Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions on Earth and the chances are pretty darn high that you will have an adherent of one of them at your table.
So far so good.
Now... Pantheons of the Megaverse though has no problem with the Hindu Pantheon. It distorts it, holds up the worst western stereotypes and tropes and basically turns it into a 2-D caricature...
...which made it rather awkward to explain to a couple of my players in one of my games why that was... see they were Hindu's, followers of the worlds third largest Religion and they were rather curious as to why the game we were playing was saying all these hateful and untrue things about their faith. Oops? The result is that when I game I simply have the gods be "beyond stats" and 'distant and uninvolved'. Priests and such are powered as much by faith as by the gods and I don't worry about issues like "is this god real? Or that one? nor do I have to do comparative theology to settle who is who or what influences what.

For the same reason my HU world always has different politicians. This is because that way I don't have to be putting words in someone's mouth. I can safely have my US government pass laws restricting the rights of metahumans in 1964 with out blaming Lyndon B Johnson or claiming that he was a bigot. I can have the current administration do something, again with out claiming that the actual real world president (or the people in his administration) are like that.


And that is safe and good and respectful. Just saying that playing it the other way isn't crossing some "they're a horrible person" line. If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:20 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
And that is safe and good and respectful. Just saying that playing it the other way isn't crossing some "they're a horrible person" line. If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots.

I agree with you to a point.
But only a point.
The claim that "we must accept all view points equally" is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is just wrong. Some view points are just wrong.
You mistake what it is to be bigoted, it is a common mistake and lots of modern Americans make the same mistake that 'every idea is equally valid and you must accept my ideas as valid or your a bigot". That's not true. A bigot is when you dismiss ideas with out consideration for the idea itself. Some ideas, when considered are only fit to be dismissed. I do not accept the view point that I must accept that the view "it is alright to murder all the Jews in the world" as a valid point of view. Nor do I accept "it is alright to murder all non-Muslims" or "women only exist to serve men" or "blacks exist to be the chattel slaves of white men"
Those views, and many other equally abhorrent and repulsive viewpoints, have no validity and rejecting them is not bigoted.


And the reason I say that its a bad idea to do things like this in games is 1) it is rather disrespectful to the people involved, especially if it involves putting actions at their feet that are not actions that they themselves have taken. and 2) due to group think it is hard to know when you are doing something that will offend one of your players. It is easy to be the offended player but not want to speak up because you don't want to be labeled as a 'fun wrecker' or as you did above 'a bigot'.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:21 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
And that is safe and good and respectful. Just saying that playing it the other way isn't crossing some "they're a horrible person" line. If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots.

I agree with you to a point.
But only a point.
The claim that "we must accept all view points equally" is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is just wrong. Some view points are just wrong.
You mistake what it is to be bigoted, it is a common mistake and lots of modern Americans make the same mistake that 'every idea is equally valid and you must accept my ideas as valid or your a bigot". That's not true. A bigot is when you dismiss ideas with out consideration for the idea itself. Some ideas, when considered are only fit to be dismissed. I do not accept the view point that I must accept that the view "it is alright to murder all the Jews in the world" as a valid point of view. Nor do I accept "it is alright to murder all non-Muslims" or "women only exist to serve men" or "blacks exist to be the chattel slaves of white men"
Those views, and many other equally abhorrent and repulsive viewpoints, have no validity and rejecting them is not bigoted.


And the reason I say that its a bad idea to do things like this in games is 1) it is rather disrespectful to the people involved, especially if it involves putting actions at their feet that are not actions that they themselves have taken. and 2) due to group think it is hard to know when you are doing something that will offend one of your players. It is easy to be the offended player but not want to speak up because you don't want to be labeled as a 'fun wrecker' or as you did above 'a bigot'.


Ahhhhh... straw man struck down. Fine but there are many who consider themselves accepting but are bigoted. Claiming that all in favor of the 2nd amendment want children murdered is a bigoted statement no?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:38 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
And that is safe and good and respectful. Just saying that playing it the other way isn't crossing some "they're a horrible person" line. If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots.

I agree with you to a point.
But only a point.
The claim that "we must accept all view points equally" is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is just wrong. Some view points are just wrong.
You mistake what it is to be bigoted, it is a common mistake and lots of modern Americans make the same mistake that 'every idea is equally valid and you must accept my ideas as valid or your a bigot". That's not true. A bigot is when you dismiss ideas with out consideration for the idea itself. Some ideas, when considered are only fit to be dismissed. I do not accept the view point that I must accept that the view "it is alright to murder all the Jews in the world" as a valid point of view. Nor do I accept "it is alright to murder all non-Muslims" or "women only exist to serve men" or "blacks exist to be the chattel slaves of white men"
Those views, and many other equally abhorrent and repulsive viewpoints, have no validity and rejecting them is not bigoted.


And the reason I say that its a bad idea to do things like this in games is 1) it is rather disrespectful to the people involved, especially if it involves putting actions at their feet that are not actions that they themselves have taken. and 2) due to group think it is hard to know when you are doing something that will offend one of your players. It is easy to be the offended player but not want to speak up because you don't want to be labeled as a 'fun wrecker' or as you did above 'a bigot'.


Ahhhhh... straw man struck down. Fine but there are many who consider themselves accepting but are bigoted. Claiming that all in favor of the 2nd amendment want children murdered is a bigoted statement no?

Nope not a straw man at all. It was what you said.
You flat out said "If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots."
You quite litterally just said that if someone is not fully accepting of everyone, and any and all opposing views that they are then a bigot.
Flat out what you said. Your words not mine. No straw there.
And that is purely, 100%, utterly false.

So yes, claiming that all in favor of the 2nd amendment want children murdered is bigoted. Because it is not a considered or rational statement. This is easily understood simply by analyzing the statement and looking for extreme words such as "all" in reference to large groups of people, and then noticing that they are cross linking two different and unrelated statements "second amendment" and "murdering children"
What would NOT be bigoted to say is that "those whos support of the second amendment is such that they believe that there should be no restrictions or controls on firearms, by their advocacy of inaction in the face of a pattern of crimes against children are supporting that crime."
Note the difference in the two statements? One is a sweeping generalization that has two only tangentially related issues being made co-equal, where as the second has a specific statement identifying a group of people not by a broad external label but by a narrow one based on specific actions or specific, unique, identifiers and then linking them to a second action that is directly and causally linked to the identifier used to class them into the group.

But you did not say "we must accept all rational views that differ than ours" but that people must accept ALL views. Nor did you say anything about the fact that hypocrites exist who demand a level of analysis from others that they do not extend themselves. Again, that means that your statement before had nothing to do with your new dodge.
Thus under your initial test, it is bigotry to claim that White Nationalists, Nazis, and Slave Holders are wrong.
Your test, not mine.
That suggests that either your stance is flawed, or that you are indeed claiming that hard core Nazis and Slave Holders have perfectly valid views that need to be accepted. Pick one.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:59 am
  

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My take on how Zer0 Kay's statement can be applied (which I could be totally wrong about) is that it's absurd for people to claim to champion tolerance, such as some university students, then disrupt or even prevent a guest speaker they disagree with from appearing on campus because the students are intolerant of that speaker's alleged intolerant views. Or last week, Antifa criminals, who allegedly champion the cause of "anti-fascism" (hence their so-called group's name), commit robbery and battery aganst a Bernie Sanders supporter when they took the American flag he was carrying by force and then proceeded to literally stomp his head in while he's on the ground because they felt the American flag was a symbol of fascism.

Those two examples are my interpretation of what he said.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:26 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
My take on how Zer0 Kay's statement can be applied (which I could be totally wrong about) is that it's absurd for people to claim to champion tolerance, such as some university students, then disrupt or even prevent a guest speaker they disagree with from appearing on campus because the students are intolerant of that speaker's alleged intolerant views. Or last week, Antifa criminals, who allegedly champion the cause of "anti-fascism" (hence their so-called group's name), commit robbery and battery aganst a Bernie Sanders supporter when they took the American flag he was carrying by force and then proceeded to literally stomp his head in while he's on the ground because they felt the American flag was a symbol of fascism.

Those two examples are my interpretation of what he said.

That might be a valid claim.
The second is definitely a valid example of bigotry in action. The first requires accepting that the speakers speech is not bigoted itself and/or not deliberately provocative which may or may not be true.
But that wasn't what was said.
What was said was that if you do not accept the views of everyone else as valid your a bigot. Which is false. Because that requires the oxymoronic stance that bigotry is a rationally valid viewpoint.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:18 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
And that is safe and good and respectful. Just saying that playing it the other way isn't crossing some "they're a horrible person" line. If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots.

I agree with you to a point.
But only a point.
The claim that "we must accept all view points equally" is wrong. I'm sorry, but it is just wrong. Some view points are just wrong.
You mistake what it is to be bigoted, it is a common mistake and lots of modern Americans make the same mistake that 'every idea is equally valid and you must accept my ideas as valid or your a bigot". That's not true. A bigot is when you dismiss ideas with out consideration for the idea itself. Some ideas, when considered are only fit to be dismissed. I do not accept the view point that I must accept that the view "it is alright to murder all the Jews in the world" as a valid point of view. Nor do I accept "it is alright to murder all non-Muslims" or "women only exist to serve men" or "blacks exist to be the chattel slaves of white men"
Those views, and many other equally abhorrent and repulsive viewpoints, have no validity and rejecting them is not bigoted.


And the reason I say that its a bad idea to do things like this in games is 1) it is rather disrespectful to the people involved, especially if it involves putting actions at their feet that are not actions that they themselves have taken. and 2) due to group think it is hard to know when you are doing something that will offend one of your players. It is easy to be the offended player but not want to speak up because you don't want to be labeled as a 'fun wrecker' or as you did above 'a bigot'.


Ahhhhh... straw man struck down. Fine but there are many who consider themselves accepting but are bigoted. Claiming that all in favor of the 2nd amendment want children murdered is a bigoted statement no?

Nope not a straw man at all. It was what you said.
You flat out said "If people want to be accepting then freaking be fully accepting of everyone including especially those of opposing views as those who claim to be accepting but dont accept the views of bigots then they are also biggots."
You quite litterally just said that if someone is not fully accepting of everyone, and any and all opposing views that they are then a bigot.
Flat out what you said. Your words not mine. No straw there.
And that is purely, 100%, utterly false.

So yes, claiming that all in favor of the 2nd amendment want children murdered is bigoted. Because it is not a considered or rational statement. This is easily understood simply by analyzing the statement and looking for extreme words such as "all" in reference to large groups of people, and then noticing that they are cross linking two different and unrelated statements "second amendment" and "murdering children"
What would NOT be bigoted to say is that "those whos support of the second amendment is such that they believe that there should be no restrictions or controls on firearms, by their advocacy of inaction in the face of a pattern of crimes against children are supporting that crime."
Note the difference in the two statements? One is a sweeping generalization that has two only tangentially related issues being made co-equal, where as the second has a specific statement identifying a group of people not by a broad external label but by a narrow one based on specific actions or specific, unique, identifiers and then linking them to a second action that is directly and causally linked to the identifier used to class them into the group.

But you did not say "we must accept all rational views that differ than ours" but that people must accept ALL views. Nor did you say anything about the fact that hypocrites exist who demand a level of analysis from others that they do not extend themselves. Again, that means that your statement before had nothing to do with your new dodge.
Thus under your initial test, it is bigotry to claim that White Nationalists, Nazis, and Slave Holders are wrong.
Your test, not mine.
That suggests that either your stance is flawed, or that you are indeed claiming that hard core Nazis and Slave Holders have perfectly valid views that need to be accepted. Pick one.


Wait for straw man there has to be an alternate doesn't there?

Okay I can deal with that definition of bigotry and I'll have to stop saying I'm bigoted against bigots because if someone is a proven bigot then opposing their point of view is not bigoted.

Also Jack is correct.

Now what was the OP again ;)

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:42 pm
  

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If Trudeau dies, we riot!

In celebration, or in an effort to drive the guilty into the river where he can be caught easier?

I look at him as the lesser of evils of the 5(?) leaders in the last race.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:48 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

That line or moral boundry can only be determined by the group. If they get offended by a real name being used as the intended victim, then make a name up. But no, if a real person's name is used and the group is not offended, who cares? I promise that the RPG police will not come knocking on anyone's door, especially if the players are trying to SAVE the i tended target, not eliminate the intended target. Heck, the RPG police may even award the players a medal for saving said victim!



In my country the real police responded to reports of a group of individuals plotting to commit a crime.

It turns out they were playing Rifts.

True story.


There's also the time that GURPS had their computers seized by the US Secret Service because they thought it had something to do with cyber-terrorism.


I remember that one.
SJG managed to rebuild the book that the US Feebs refused to return, and published it anyway...only about a year or so late. If I pull out my GURPS box(es), I think I still have it! :D

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 9:04 pm
  

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In answer to Incriptus's OP,
I'd consider it stepping over the line to use a living ad currently serving world/national executive as the target.
Deceased/historical ones are fair game(thus allowing for campaigns to knock off Queen Victoria or Kaiser Wilhelm, for example).
No longer serving(but still living) individuals in the context of history( is less certain(like, for example, setting a campaign during President Carter's administration) is pushing the envelope of good taste if conducted online, but passable, depending on the general feeling of the gaming group.

Where it really gets complicated is in time travel campaigns, where, for example, a traveller from the future arrive with the warning 'don't let - real person x- become President/Chancellor/Pope!' and the preferred solution is to whack them.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


Last edited by taalismn on Sun May 24, 2020 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:23 am
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Posts: 13230
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taalismn wrote:
In answer to Zero Kay's OP,
I'd consider it stepping over the line to use a living ad currently serving world/national executive as the target.
Deceased/historical ones are fair game(thus allowing for campaigns to knock off Queen Victoria or Kaiser Wilhelm, for example).
No longer serving(but still living) individuals in the context of history( is less certain(like, for example, setting a campaign during President Carter's administration) is pushing the envelope of good taste if conducted online, but passable, depending on the general feeling of the gaming group.

Where it really gets complicated is in time travel campaigns, where, for example, a traveller from the future arrive with the warning 'don't let - real person x- become President/Chancellor/Pope!' and the preferred solution is to whack them.


Um... I wasn't the OP. :)

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:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

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Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:35 pm
  

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Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
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Zer0 Kay wrote:
[

Um... I wasn't the OP. :)



Whoops... :o
Corrected and proper accreditation made.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:04 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Posts: 13230
Location: Snoqualmie, WA
taalismn wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
[

Um... I wasn't the OP. :)



Whoops... :o
Corrected and proper accreditation made.


Thank you. ;D

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:57 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5984
Jefffar wrote:
I would say the moment you use a specific person from the real world (not just an unamed individual with a title, or a fictious person to hold that title) you are stepping over a line.

Unless: they start doing weird stuff they never did IRL and after you off them you discover that it was a shapeshifted Infernal the whole time, and the real one was tied up in a closet.


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